Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games

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New Articles (16 September to 22 September)[edit]

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Salavat (talk) 07:30, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

  • PSA: Please move articles to their proper titles before nominating them for deletion. This puts the page history in the right location if or when it needs to be referenced in the future, e.g., if the article is recreated czar 05:28, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Coin945, you really gotta slow down again - you're really scraping the very bottom of the barrel with some of these articles you're creating. They're extremely short and devoid of hardly any content at all. Icarus: Sanctuary of the Gods is a mere 6 sentences (3 unsourced) streched out across 3 sections. Riddler's Den, is in a similar state. Articles like this aren't helping anyone. Sergecross73 msg me 12:57, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
    • Whoa there. I disagree. Creating subs (even substubs) with one or two lines and a handful of sigcov in RSes is not only constructive, it is desirable. I encourage Coin945 to continue to do that. I do it too -- I have created many substubs in fact! A little is better than nothing (as long as it's not promotional and it has a few sources). Sometimes a small article is more conducive to iterative improvements than a redlink. Take the first step and others will follow. WP:PUTEFFORT. Ben · Salvidrim!  20:46, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
      • Looking at an article like Icarus: Sanctuary of the Gods, I agree with Sergecross that Coin could put a bit more effort into such articles. I think this is a big difference in editing philosophy, possibly valuing coverage over overall quality? There are no real rules against this behavior as long as you put in two or more good sources, but it's something worth thinking about. ~Mable (chat) 09:59, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
        • Seems like a philosophy of "if I make these stubs it will be easier for people to expand". Alhough, I think it's wrong headed, specifically because the games are so obscure that it's unlikely most of the articles will be significantly expanded. It's akin to wanting to make Wikipedia into a WP:DIRECTORY and is the wrong approach to take, people should be trying to add value rather than just cataloguing everything. Stuff like Mobygames will always be a better catalog than Wikipedia.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 06:11, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
          • It bothers me in particular because I dislike expanding article compared to starting an article from scratch. Stubs like these would actively deter me from writing articles ^_^; ~Mable (chat) 09:09, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (19 September to 29 September)[edit]

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Salavat (talk) 07:08, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (29 September to 6 October)[edit]

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Salavat (talk) 07:54, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Unsourced reception[edit]

I found a number of articles that have unsourced reception sections. As I understand it, including anything in the reception section without a source is a no-no. In some cases, what people posted there is probably just WP:OR that can be removed, and hopefully there are real sources out there that can be used to build a legitimate reception section. In other cases, someone added mentions of legitimate sources, but did not actually include any citations - so it's impossible to tell if those are truly legitimate, or if the person who added it was just being lazy or careless. 65.126.152.254 (talk) 22:06, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Extended content

Of these, I would note that Tactical Ops: Assault on Terror is up for AFD, although based on the discussion it looks likely to be kept. 2600:1700:E820:1BA0:F547:54CF:BB57:887D (talk) 01:05, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, all statements are supposed to be supported by sources, per WP:V. It's up to individual editors to decide whether they want to delete it, find and add a source, or tag it as "citation needed", often depending on the ability and likelihood of finding a source. Sergecross73 msg me 01:54, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Good list to work through, should be useful :) ~Mable (chat) 11:34, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes indeed! I'm sure some that the reception sections of a lot of these articles can be sourced! 73.168.15.161 (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
More for the list: The Adventures of Robin Hood (video game), Army Men: Major Malfunction, and Avalon (video game). 73.168.15.161 (talk) 22:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I removed Sonic Pinball Party and Namco Museum Battle Collection from the list as they have been addressed, although the latter could certainly use more sources. 73.168.15.161 (talk) 15:46, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
I also removed Mayhem in Monsterland from the list as it has been addressed. 73.168.15.161 (talk) 18:51, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Double Dungeons was much improved, so I removed that one as well. 2600:1700:E820:1BA0:F547:54CF:BB57:887D (talk) 16:34, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
The unsourced opinions were removed from Tweenies: Doodles' Bones, but the article is still lacking sources. 65.126.152.254 (talk) 21:28, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Quick opinion needed - potential WP:CIRC issue[edit]

I have been working a bit at improving the loot box article, so when I saw this article on the history of microtransactions in VGs from USGamer I was initially thrilled. However, I'm getting a feel that the Loot Box section of that article might have borrowed concepts (not verbatim text) from our loot box article, only because the narrative and list of games mentioned is practically the same. USgamer is a RS, Williams is a key editor there, and the loot box situation is limited to a small number of very visible games (eg that article conforms to other previous sources as to origins), so I might be seeing something that really isn't a problem. Just would like a quick check before adding. (Though I am off to Video game monetization to use that there) --MASEM (t) 17:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Tread lightly. Most games history pieces I've seen recently—anything that requires long-term analysis—appear to crib liberally from Wikipedia, not to mention that recent Rignall listicle. This said, we supposedly trust USgamer's editorial chain to catch and correct errors. But I think your hunch is right:

... the first purchasable game to feature loot boxes was Mass Effect 3, which launched in March 2012 with a variety of "packs" in its multiplayer mode. This was followed in August 2013 by Counter-Strike: Global Offensive adding "weapon cases" in an update. In October 2013, Battlefield 4 launched with "battlepacks", though they did not become purchasable until May 2014 and never granted duplicate items. Today, loot boxes are found in many commercially successful games, such as Overwatch, Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare, Halo 5: Guardians, Battlefield 1, Paragon, Gears of War 4, and FIFA 17.
— Loot box

Mass Effect 3's Galaxy at War multiplayer launched with purchasable equipment packs. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive added weapon cases in 2013, requiring an additional key to unlock. (PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds toyed with a similar system.) Battlefield 4 launched with Battlepacks, adding real-money purchases in 2014. Releases from 2016 were riddled with loot boxes: Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare has supply drops and zombie crates, Halo 5: Guardians has REQ Packs, Battlefield 1 has Battlepacks, and Gears of War 4 has Gear Packs.
— USgamer

Perhaps can't avoid the first half as basic chronology, but the last sentence has some uncannily coincidental ordering—it's not like it even preserves order of release (also consider that Halo 5 is not even 2016). If the tables were turned, I would encourage the WP editor to at least change the order to avoid the appearance of close paraphrasing. But unless someone does a deeper dive, paraphrasing is more an issue of plagiarism (ethics) than unreliability. I wouldn't replace old refs with this piece, but if the author makes new claims useful to your article, I don't think it has reached the point that the source is untouchable. czar 20:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
That was my gut. All the other sections in that article point to other RSes so when I expanded the video game monetization article, I included those too. But the loot box section was devoid of such, and the ordering of games was far too uncanny. Fortunately, there's not much that I need from that beyond the statement that Overwatch popularized the current loot box glut. --MASEM (t) 20:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 HD merge discussion[edit]

Hello. I'm looking for more input here, about the article Sonic the Hedgehog 2 HD. Thanks! Sergecross73 msg me 18:41, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

What about Talisman:Digital Edition?[edit]

I think that video games as Talisman:Digital Edition who represents traditional board games should have an article. It represents the Dungeon and Dragons typical structure and many people around the globe still enjoy this gender of video games and board games.— Preceding unsigned comment added by SplitShadow (talkcontribs) 12:29, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

New Articles (5 October to 13 October)[edit]

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Salavat (talk) 04:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Classic Home Video Games 1972-1984: reliable source?[edit]

What is the position of WP:VG on the book Classic Home Video Games 1972-1984, by Brett Weiss? A quick Google search indicates it's already used in quite a few articles. Nevertheless, as far as I can tell, there's never been an explicit judgment made on it one way or another. This book is the only substantial coverage that exists for a whole spate of older games, so it would be useful. Phediuk (talk) 23:06, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

McFarland & Company is a reputable publisher, so the book is assumed to have received baseline editing. For those interested, the title should be available through Wikipedia:McFarland. czar 23:47, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Agree with Czar that it's a real book published through a real publisher, so it's likely pretty good as a source. General caveat for this era of gaming is that the "history" aspects of any book are likely to be suspect regardless of publisher, so comparing multiple sources is usually needed; that said, this appears to be more of a discusion on individual games instead of the industry as a whole, in which case it should be just fine on its own. I've applied for access through the link Czar posted. I'm likely the most active editor in the <1975 video game space, though I've never read this book; I'm excited- pre-1972 is covered by other books more or less, but works covering 1972-1980 mostly focus on arcade games, so that's what I've been doing. Wish this did computer games too, but console fills in a good gap by itself and lots of stuff got ported all over the place. --PresN 02:56, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Super Mario Bros. draft[edit]

Hi everyone, I've recently been working on a draft to improve the Super Mario Bros. page at User:TheJoebro64/drafts/SMB. I was wondering if anyone was willing to assist? I'm probably going to need a bit of help writing the reception section and copyediting. JOEBRO64 20:05, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Wasn't the article a GA until recently? Does it really need a complete reworking like this? Sergecross73 msg me 21:36, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
And even if it did, is there any reason why you can't just edit the mainspace article piece by piece over time? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:37, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
The reason I'm completely re-writing it from the ground up is because the article was a GA from 2007 until this year (when I removed it per consensus at a GAR). The current version of the article is a complete mess -- it's way too detailed, poorly written (just look at the music section, for example), and unreliably sourced (sources like multiple "TheMushroomKingdom" refs and a Wordpress blog). The reason I'm re-writing it from scratch is because I find it easier than editing in mainspace (it's how I got Sonic Colors and Batman: A Death in the Family to much better-looking articles) JOEBRO64 21:44, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough I suppose, the article is badly written for how well known the game is. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:38, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I didn't know TMK was no longer considered reliable. AFAIR it was situational (okay for facts but does not establish notability). Ben · Salvidrim!  23:57, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
@Salvidrim!: Got bumped in May: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources/Archive 17#TheMushroomKingdom --PresN 01:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

2017-18 Dota Pro Circuit template up for deletion[edit]

Thought I'd give WT:VG a notice for a relevant TfD. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

1001 Video Games You Must Play Before You Die[edit]

Does anyone have a copy of this book? I'd like to know what it says about Super Mario Bros., since I'd like to add its commentary to my current draft's reception (see my above discussion). JOEBRO64 20:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Here you go. CurlyWi (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! JOEBRO64 21:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Notability question[edit]

Hi everyone,

Does a listicle like List of cultural references to Game Grumps need a third-party source that mention these cultural references, or can the article point to the cultural references itself? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 06:48, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:IPCEXAMPLES, each reference has to be pointed out by multiple third party sources. "Unremarkable mentions" are discouraged, so if it's just someone's cameo name or picture, that isn't really a notable thing. Pretty much the entire article is filled with small cameo appearances in various media, which means it's likely not an encyclopedic list.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 09:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I really can't believe that the list itself is notable. This looks like the kind of junk that wouldn't last at the parent article, let alone on its own. Strongly support merger/deletion. Sergecross73 msg me 12:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
There is zero reason to have that list as a separate article. It needs to be post-haste merged back into the main Game Grumps page (which is nowhere close to a critical size), and trimmed per WP:TRIVIA (where only third-party RSes discuss the connection). --MASEM (t) 14:06, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't see this as notable at all. The lack of sources only reinforces this. --ProtoDrake (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Publisher Template[edit]

Hello everyone. While perusing Wikipedia, I realized something that made no sense to me; the utter lack of a video game publisher template. I realized that "some" publishers were listed on the "Major information technology companies" template, but that also never made sense to me. For one, video game companies aren't information technology companies. Secondly, the template's setup and methodology would exclude that vast majority of publishers. Thirdly, the template is already unwieldy and very big. So, I figured it would make sense to make a better, tighter, cleaner alternate and remove the video game companies from the information technology template, as I feel they were just stuck on their because there was no other place to put them. I already have a working draft template here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rogue_Commander/sandbox. I would appreciate some critique and feedback from other members of the video game wiki project before making any unilateral changes.Rogue Commander (talk) 22:54, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

  • What is your criteria for classifying them as big/medium/small publisher size? Without objective criteria, there will be endless arguments. (Is Sega large or medium? Is Atlus small or medium? Etc etc) Sergecross73 msg me 23:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't think we should do this either, but hypothetically we could only include publishers that have more than one game that sold more than a million copies or something. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 06:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Without reliable sources classifying publishers in some way, it would end up being OR. Even criteria like the number of sold copies is unrepresentative. For example, Zynga has sold 0 copies, because all games are mobile F2Ps. Or a niche publisher who sells 100k copies for 80$ is not the same as casual publisher who sells 1M copies for 3$ or something. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 11:38, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
What about companies that are developers and publishers? Or companies that used to be developers but are now only publishers; and vice versa? - X201 (talk) 07:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)