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GameSpot Archiving Issue update, plus Iwata Asks[edit]

I have learned exactly what is causing the archiving issue with GameSpot. It is also responsible for a few other problems the site has been experiencing recently such as videos not working, the site not loading properly, and its speed collapsing. Apparently the site is having extensive trouble with advertisements trying to create clones of their site and using it for their own purposes. As part of their efforts to counter it, GameSpot put in a general block on any site attempting to make a copy of a page: unfortunately, that meant Archive.org and WebCite were also blocked. I have raised the issue on the site's forums, and the staff will apparently adjust to allow Archive.org to archive pages (have no idea about WebCite). I will be doing tests in a week, and if the problem persists, I will make inquiries about its continuation.

On a separate note, since the recent death of Satoru Iwata, I feel we should move to archive the Iwata Asks with all possible speed, as it is possible that they might go down within the next year or two. They can be successfully archived using WebCite from the page's UK and Japanese versions. They have extensive interviews with staff on multiple games, including recent Fire Emblem and Zelda titles, Xenoblade Chronicles and Chronicles X, and more niche titles like The Last Story and Pandora's Tower, among others. I've already archived some interviews. --ProtoDrake (talk) 13:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Big update (and a quick note to Masem (talk · contribs) and GamerPro64 (talk · contribs)): the issue detailed above has been fixed. Archive.org and WebCite can now be used to successfully archive GameSpot, Giant Bomb and Comic Vine links again. Please note that archived pages during the period when the issue was present are still affected (naturally), so all pages must be from today onwards or prior to May-June 2015. --ProtoDrake (talk) 14:59, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
That's great news. Thank you! —zziccardi (talk) 18:08, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

List of fictional towns in video games[edit]

So, what's gonna happen with List of fictional towns in video games? It could use some help. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:07, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

  • Looks like List of fictional universes in games has a lot of the same problems. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:09, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
    I'm just wondering why they both exist. I can sort of see the universes being notable, but towns? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 07:05, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Might be list cruft, since I think we already have categories for fictional universes/towns. OTOH, this is a more interesting way to provide navigation than categories since users can get where they want to go based on differing criteria to a category. Inclination is that these need some love and not deletion. --Izno (talk) 12:44, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • In my opinion they're both rubbish lists that fall under WP:LISTCRUFT. Both have gone unsourced for over 3 years so clearly the authors have no intention of improving them. --The1337gamer (talk) 14:50, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I could see this list getting extremely long and full of cruft, but at the moment it is not. Definitely could use some grooming, though. Might be prudent to only include towns/villages that have their own articles. Mamyles (talk) 14:56, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
As long as a notability requirement is met, specifically:
  • Either the location has a standalone article (blue linked, not redirect)
  • There are secondary sources that discuss the city beyond it just being a location, but not necessarily enough for notability. Such sources must be included to show that.
This should help keep down cruft of every random city and town being included. --MASEM (t) 15:19, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Even if a notability requirement like Masem proposes were put in place, I question the use for these lists. Would anyone actually look up a list of video game towns? If it were about towns or places or characters or whatever from a specific game or franchise, then I could see how it could potentially be useful - I can see someone wanting to look up, say, the characters in Ace Attorney (which needs a lot of work too btw), but this is just a list of things that don't really have much in common.--IDVtalk 10:31, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I have to agree. Not only that, but it's all in-universe descriptions that are probably better written/sourced in their respective articles. I too wondered if/how people even come across such an article, but it seems not many do... Sergecross73 msg me 12:12, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Need opinion on plotsums[edit]

So I've been going around on various Ratchet & Clank-related articles and taking a wrench (ha!) to the plot summaries of each to try and take it down to the most important details that a reader ought to know about the plots of each game, instead of reading like a fan's badly-written blow-by-blow of every cutscene. I wanted to ask a question about the way to do it, and as well, I want to try and sample a few opinions here at WPVG on the subject.

So my first question is, should plot sections simply present the premise of a game's story, OR should it synopsize the plot of the game start-to-finish, albeit only covering the most important components of the plot that a layman needs to know to understand it?

Second question is, which article(s), in you guys' opinions, have the best written Plot sections, whether GA, FA or whatever, that other game articles ought to emulate? I want to use something as a frame of reference, and I know how much mileage may vary between articles, especially depending on story complexity. BLUSTER⌉⌊BLASTER 15:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

  • I'll show you an example of a heavy-handed plot trim I did (years ago... wow!): here. I still think it's a good example of decent before-and-after plot trimming! Plotsums should definitely encompass the entire game from start-to-finish.  · Salvidrim! ·  17:16, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
That however is not the same as a blow by blow.--67.68.29.1 (talk) 19:59, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
You definitely don't want a blow-by-blow (for R&C, this pretty much would be what happens at each planet in the game). For a game like R&C that is not very "deep" you should be able to work down to about 3-4 paragraphs of plot summary, the major plot drivers and the like. While we don't have a hard limit like the film project does of 700 words, that is a comfortable limit to aim for for most games. --MASEM (t) 05:57, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
Crack In Time (originally at a horrifying 5100 words/29KB! (shudders)), Arsenal, and Commando I've gotten down to between 800-1100 words, at the moment, and that's while being as surgical about the plot as I can while keeping it coherent. Tools was already pretty good size-wise before I took it down to 707. I haven't looked at Deadlocked yet, at least recently (I think I tinkered with it months ago when I first registered). BLUSTER⌉⌊BLASTER 13:44, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
Actually, hold that thought. Haven't overhauled Commando completely yet, but I might. Still seems too blow-by-blowy for my tastes. BLUSTER⌉⌊BLASTER 13:47, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Video game plot summaries are unusual beasts. The premise of a video game article should principally be about how it's played, not its story. That said, there are games that are quite notable for their storylines, and have received coverage in the gaming press for them. Those are the games that deserve more extensive plot summaries, approaching lengths reserved for films (see WP:FILMPLOT). In my opinion, in the vast majority of cases, video game plot summaries should be just that ... very brief set-ups to the story behind the game. --McDoobAU93 14:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be able to cut the plots down. However, if you want to save your time you can just look at the article's history for a point where the plot was in a reasonable state. Being GAs, Arsenal and Commando have had some decent summaries (here and here). You may have luck with the other games too. Gabriel Yuji (talk) 14:41, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

  • To your original question, any of the recent FA plot sections should be fine examples. The plot should be proportional to the amount of space the reliable sources dedicate to it. Mass Effect will have a lengthy plot because the sources care about the long story arc. But R&C, isn't that a simple platformer? You want really broad strokes, as short as possible—a few sentences. If the sources don't care about what happens on each world (and they're specialist magazines!) then we should not, as an encyclopedia. tl;dr keep it even shorter than everyone is suggesting, or work it into gameplay and leave the section out altogether – czar 23:44, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Satoru Iwata & List of Iwata Asks interviews[edit]

Hey everyone, newcomer to the video game realm of Wiki here. Some of you have probably seen me frequenting the late Satoru Iwata's article...I've made a goal for myself to improve it as much as possible and this has extended into his interview series, Iwata Asks. I just finished going through all the translated ones available through Nintendo, but I'm certain there are many more that are Japanese-only. In one of his 3DS interviews, Mr. Iwata stated that he conduced over 200 interviews. Going from that amount, there are at least 32 missing from the list (168 of his are listed + 5 by others). Do any of you here know how to search for these so I can complete the list of his interviews? Many thanks in advance! Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:16, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

On a relevant note, if any of you know specific interviews that have pertinent information for Mr. Iwata's article I would greatly appreciate if you could let me know. I plan on reading through all of them at some point since I've noticed they have insightful bits scattered about in the discussions...but knowing where to look first would save me some time. Thanks in advance again~! Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

These are all the interviews conducted by him published by Nintendo's Japanese branch, and include interviews on titles that have not been published outside Japan. They can be archived using WebCite. Can this help, or have you already used this? --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:16, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
That's exactly what I needed, thanks! Should be able to complete the list now, barring some delays with translation issues. :D Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:31, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Is there really enough dedicated coverage of the Iwata Asks interview series to warrant a list of it? I think it would be fine to have a section in Iwata's bio article that discusses Iwata Asks and its impact but I can't imagine there is coverage for each individual interview so as to warrant its own list... – czar 15:48, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
  • If it turns out that we decide not to have a mainspace article listing the Iwata Asks, we should definitely keep the contents as sourcing reference in projectspace for WP:VG!!!  · Salvidrim! ·  16:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
  • The interviews appeared in media quite often, enough so to warrant the list existing in my opinion. There's certainly a lot of secondary/tertiary sources (Nintendo World Report, Kotaku, Game Informer, etc.) reporting on the individual interviews if additional sourcing is required. A pretext of sorts (the proper word is failing me at the moment) for having this article would be the Nintendo Direct list; almost entirely sourced to Nintendo primary sources and been maintained as an article since 2012. Another note, WP:FL doesn't seem to have an issue with lists comprised solely (or almost entirely so) of primary sources when the sources are in regards to the topic itself (See: List of Billboard Hot 100 number-one singles of 2002, 2003, 2004, etc...). Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
While we're on this note, is this appropriate - having a huge blockquote from his Eulogy in there? I didn't remove it because I didn't want to seem heartless...but it doesn't seem very encyclopedic. I don't write many articles about people or the deceased though. Any thoughts? Sergecross73 msg me 16:46, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
I removed it for the same as your concern, though I'm likely to be reverted (since someone added it!). --Izno (talk) 16:49, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
I was 50/50 on adding the quote in the first place. No issue with its removal. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:36, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

NPD 2005 sales[edit]

This is a question on sources, both now and for future reference. I am doing an article rewrite (FE: Path of Radiance) where I need the sales data from NPD Group for October 2005. I've seen plenty of figures quoted in forums where the Top 50 GameCube games were quoted, but I can't find any report/press release by NPD that goes beyond the top ten positions. No actual figures. Is there any source apart from forum pages (which are generally inadmissible in GAs) that can provide these figures? If there are favorable results from this, it can be applied to other games in the future. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:53, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe there is. If there is, someone please let me know. I always hate how hard it is to find video game sales figures, unlike the transparency in figures in the film industry, where its easy to find the budget and sales of virtually any movie you want. Unfortunately, with videogames, we're restricted to whatever limited info NPD gives out, the million-sellers the console makers release in their quarterly earnings reports, and the few random figures leaked out in messageboards, which you have to take with a grain of salt, and aren't Wikipedia reliable sources... Sergecross73 msg me 12:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
(Sidenote: You probably already know this, since you rewrote Fire Emblem Awakening, but Awakening was pretty much the game that saved the series - had it been a failure, they would have probably stopped the series due to declining sales in releases. So, since this was the last new release prior to Awakening, its probably safe to assume that the sales of the game were not up to expectations. This is pretty well documented, so with proper sources, it seems like you could at least make a general statement to that capacity...) Sergecross73 msg me 12:54, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Minor correction in your statement. The last new release prior to Awakening was Radiant Dawn, unless you count remakes, but otherwise I agree with your statement. Anyway, I've got sales for Japan in 2005 and sales rankings for the UK, along with general things from Nintendo and development staff about its general success without specific figures, so I should be fine. --ProtoDrake (talk) 13:10, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Oh right, whoops, I forgot which one was which. Sorry, I get them confused, with the similar names. Sergecross73 msg me 13:13, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
I am usually good at google-fu but these numbers elude me; I can't see where some forum users got them to start with. Trying to remember how NPD used to cover sales (pre-2010, after which they closed up even tighter), I remember they usually gave the top 10 overall sales, and top 10 per console unit per month, but for 2005 I simply can't find anything at the monthly resolution. --MASEM (t) 14:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Failed Kickstarter game projects[edit]

For a game on Kickstarter that doesn't end up being funded (looks like Red Ash: The Indelible Legend is going to be the prime example, as it's only around 50% funded with just over a week remaining), do we delete the article since no game will be made, or keep it and re-word it as a "canceled" game? I had thought the previous policy was to hold out until the game officially met it's funding, to avoid situations like these. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:42, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this is why we generally don't do articles for in-progress kickstarters. Looks like the game got a bit of attention, but I'd redirect it to Comcept if the developers don't announce that they're still developing the game pretty soon after the kickstarter ends. An article on a cancelled project that got a lot of development is one thing, but a project that never even got funding? --PresN 20:51, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
In general, I agree, though I think this particular case could be an exception - it's been getting a lot of coverage due to its comparison (and difference in success) to their first project, one of the biggest KS projects - Mighty Number 9. I think if someone put work into it, even if its KS fails, it'd probably survive an AFD or merge discussion. Sergecross73 msg me
Cancelled things have their own category. Category:Cancelled projects and events may help with guidance. - X201 (talk) 10:43, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
If it was not funded in most cases it can be merged with the developers company page, the head of the project biographical page, or if it's sequel or part of series, one of those pages.--Vaypertrail (talk) 13:08, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Sort of relevant, but do we remove all instances of the game from the people who worked on the game's worklist, if it fails? I.E. Manami Matsumae wouldn't have Red Ash listed, right? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:37, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
  • If she did any work on it, I think it would still be listed. If it was only a failed Kickstarter idea with no real work done, then I wouldnt list it. My 2 cents, ignore me if there's some guideline out there saying otherwise. Sergecross73 msg me 13:31, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Yeah, that's what I was going to do, but Wikipedia doesn't have any official policies regarding these types of things, as far as I am aware. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 03:52, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested article - Roundabout (video game)[edit]

Roundabout is a comedy action video game for PC and current-gen consoles. There are 20 reviews on Metacritic.[1][2][3]. It has been on our requests page since September 2014, I'm asking again here because the developers recently released images under a free use license.

Another reminder is that I still have Steam keys for Insurgency (video game) to give away via email if anyone would like to take that article on. Insurgency is a PC multiplayer shooter with an active community.[4][5]- hahnchen 09:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

  • I did a bit of work on Roundabout (video game) but I have to step out now so if someone else wants to keep working on it (and maybe grab a DYK?), be my guest.  · Salvidrim! ·  14:32, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
I removed Roundabout from the request page. But I did add sources from PC Gamer and Polygon in the articles talk page that can be of use. GamerPro64 00:59, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

VG articles.[edit]

I'm not sure why articles like THIS are being redirected. I think it's extremely sad. --Kaysser (talk) 11:47, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Czar attempted to find reliable secondary sourcing covering the topic in detail, but failed. --Izno (talk) 13:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree that it's sad, but considering the low amount of sources covering it, it's probably the right decision. I did find these, but they're clearly not enough.
I'm guessing you might be able to find some coverage of it in Japanese video game magazines from 1999, but... I can't help out with that, as much as I'd like to. My Japanese is very limited, and I don't have access to any Japanese magazines or whatever from that time period. I also imagine it would be a quite time-consuming project to go through magazines from that time, even if you did have easy access to them.--IDVtalk 13:53, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, at least there's the Japanese Wiki article plus other sites. I think this policy leaves much to be desired. --Kaysser (talk) 14:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Er, well, it's the foundation of the entire website though. You can try to rewrite the concept of the entire website that has been in effect for many years...or you can follow it, and try to find some reliable sources for it. Sergecross73 msg me 15:02, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
It's a redirect, you're free to revert it, like I have done here and [6]. If whoever redirected it disagrees, it can go to AFD. Redirects act as a quick and easy deletion-lite, bypassing any formal process. User:Czar has redirected a lot of articles recently without discussion, they might not be right. Being unsourced is not a criteria for speedy deletion, if you feel any of these redirects should be discussed, just revert. - hahnchen 23:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Indeed, I've objected to at least one myself. But not being able to provide many/any sources won't hold up well if he sends it to AFD. Sergecross73 msg me 23:56, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I've just reverted a bunch. Some of them were just wrong, Nintendo Super System is not a Super Nintendo Entertainment System accessory. Others can be expanded, or had sources, and I'd err on keeping articles as articles to preserve the external links and identifying artwork. I'd much rather have a half-assed article than a half-assed redirect. - hahnchen 00:13, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I wasn't happy with his decision to redirect Tuper Tario Tros either, considering the last discussion was an unanimous stance to keep the article. He's making some good calls, like the redirecting of all of those excessive system software articles, but he's had some missteps as well... Sergecross73 msg me 00:19, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Great! I love a communal effort! Here are three AfDs based on Hahnchen's reverts:
  1. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nintendo_Super_System
  2. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nintendo_M82
  3. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ultra_Machine
You know I am everything but thorough, so I'm sure we'll fix my "half-assed" "missteps" with your help. Thanks for having my back. – czar 01:21, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Don't take it so personally, you've just been a bit hasty/heavy-handed on a few of these. I've been supporting a number of them as well... Sergecross73 msg me 01:24, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Good to see I'm not the only one who disagrees with the user who is reverting stuff like that... :\ in fact I already sent him/her a polite message few months ago showing my disagreement. "You're free to revert it" - too much trouble, not going to do it.
And I fully agree with this: "Others can be expanded, or had sources, and I'd err on keeping articles as articles to preserve the external links and identifying artwork. I'd much rather have a half-assed article than a half-assed redirect." --Kaysser (talk) 05:20, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
It's a matter of perspective. Key to surviving the whole inclusionist-vs-deletionist thing is to recognize the legitimacy of both perspectives. Czar's redirects may in some cases be hard to swallow for those who lean inclusionist, but it's only fair to recognize that they are conservative steps (hiding rather than obliterating articles). Redirects (especially undiscussed/no-consensus ones) can be reverted and the material expanded/improved at any time. As such they could be regarded as a middle-ground between the two camps of "Keep" and "Delete". For what it's worth, my personal practice when dealing with potentially touchy issues like redirects and merges is to proceed at a snail's pace starting with a suggestion on the talk page and continuing with "suggested merge" templates when I'm pretty confident that it's the right thing to do. These templates and talk page posts often provoke significant improvements. Another thing that I find helpful is to use the {{R with history}} template to indicate to future revert-and-expanders that there is an older version that could (I'd even venture should) be used as a starting point. -Thibbs (talk) 14:37, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
As someone who generally tends towards inclusionism, Czar's redirecting work sometimes pains me, but realistically I know for a lot of it he's doing the sensible thing, and it's hard to object and revert when you only have a feeling to justify your position. :)  · Salvidrim! ·  15:50, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm fine with these going to AFD. Redirecting Sky Skipper to (the end result of) User:Czar/drafts/Nintendo arcade games I can understand, but no one is going to expand Sky Skipper in a summary style at List of products published by Nintendo as stated in the edit summary. It just looks like you're removing verifiable information without discussion. - hahnchen 20:01, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Pix'n Love books[edit]

Does anyone have books by Pix'n Love (histories of Nintendo, Mario, Sonic, Gunpei Yokoi)? No hits in reference. – czar 02:23, 27 July 2015 (UTC)