Talk:Sabra and Shatila massacre

Restructuring

The subsections U.N. condemnation, MacBride commission and Israeli Kahan commission are listed under the section "Postwar testimonies by Lebanese Forces operatives" despite having nothing (or very little) to do with the testimonies. I propose to restructure the article to move the postwar testimony paragraph to a subsection of "Role of various parties" and to rename the section about the UN condemnation and the two mentioned commissions to something along the gist of "International Response and Investigations".

Sharon libel suit

I think it is worth mentioning that Sharon pursued a similar suit against Time in an Israeli court, which was settled by both parties with compensation which was reported as substantial ("Neither party would disclose the amount of the payment, but the Israeli radio reported that the figure was substantial" - https://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/23/nyregion/time-magazine-and-sharon-settle-the-libel-suit-he-filed-in-israel.html).

Edit request: Number of victims in the sidebar from 460 to 700

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

  −

  sidebar: 460[2] to 3,500[3] (number disputed)

  +

  sidebar: 700 to 3,500[3] (number disputed)

• Why it should be changed:

The change was proposed in Talk:Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre#Are_there_modern_sources_that_state_the_number_of_casualties_as_low_as_460?

The main argument is the source cited for the 460 figure casts doubt on it [1]. Today it does not seem to be any support for the accuracy of this figure.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

[1] https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282/mode/2up

Bowad91017 (talk) 09:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done Skitash (talk) 10:06, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Edit request: added requested page number and estimated values

• What I think should be changed:

−

Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout in her Sabra and Shatila: September 1982[74][page needed] gives a minimum consisting of 1,300 named victims based on detailed comparison of 17 victim lists and other supporting evidence, and estimates an even higher total.

+

Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout in her Sabra and Shatila: September 1982[74][page 296] gives a minimum consisting of 1,300 named victims based on detailed comparison of 17 victim lists and other supporting evidence, and estimates an even higher total of 3500.

• Why it should be changed:

The page number was requested, also added the estimated amount to be less vague.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):*

Here is a screenshot of the page https://pasteboard.co/4brdZhsXT8gX.png

Bowad91017 (talk) 09:23, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

References

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 21:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

typo: Germanos' report says twenty children

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

−

Germanos' report determined that 460 people had been killed (including 15 women and 12 children.)

+

Germanos' report determined that 460 people had been killed (including 15 women and 20 children.)

You could also add information from Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout's book but it's not necessary:

• named, missing (persumed dead): "32 females (women and young girls)" p. 292
• female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.292)
• for children she says "In List 3, age is only sometimes mentioned: for 585 victims out of a total of 906. Of these, children account for 108 (18.46%)." (p. 292)

List 3 are those named and confirmed dead.

• Why it should be changed:

typo. The linked source says twenty but an editor must've misread tweleve.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Bowad91017 (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.291 not p. 292). sorry. "in List 3, they totalled 201 (22.18%)."

Bowad91017 (talk) 12:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

here is the source (it's currently linked in the article), showing they are 20 not 12 kids in the report: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 Bowad91017 (talk) 01:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 03:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

@thetechie@enwiki what do you mean? The current version of the article says 12 but links a source that says 20 children.

here is the source, that the article is currently using: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 Bowad91017 (talk) 07:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I will let someone else re-open if they wish. Do not re-open the request. Archive.org usually isn't reliable. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 15:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@thetechie@enwik ah I see the confusion.

• archive.org is not the source, the source is the book: Israel's lebanon war by Ze'Ev Schiff.The book is available online on archive.org for free, namely page 282. (archive.org is never a source, it's an archive of documents. the archived document can be reliable or not)
• This book is already being used in this section of the article to reference this specific claim. An editor just made a mistake. The phrase reads "includes fifteen women and twenty children" but they misread it and wrote 12 in the wikipedia article.
• Regarding the other details, they are not necessary. They are from "Sabra and Shatila: September 1982" by Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout if anyone wants to improve the next bullet point.

Please reopen the request, so someone more familiar can handle it. Thanks. Bowad91017 (talk) 17:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)