Talk:Baháʼí Faith in North America

Copied text

As per a recent request according to Wikipedia policy, I am just acknowledging that I copied text I did not write into this page about a year ago. This includes the entire header from Bahá'í Faith in Panama and the image there, and a paragraph from Religion in Belize. ThomasEdistar (talk) 17:37, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Propose merging Baháʼí Faith in Central America into this page

I believe the page Baháʼí Faith in Central America should be merged into this page. It is standard to divide the world into seven continents, and Central America is always considered part of North America. Furthermore, the page there includes mainly Caribbean countries, which are also regarded as part of North America, but not included in the region of Central America. The combined page would not be too long, and two Central American countries are already covered on this page. Let me know if there are any objections—otherwise after a week I'll carry out the merger. Gazelle55 (talk) 02:15, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I think there is a substantial cultural divide. Is it normal across religious+geographical articles to be like this? Geography by itself is not sufficient in my pov. Smkolins (talk) 02:54, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

• I just noticed Religion in North America is cut off at Mexico. Smkolins (talk) 02:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion but it is odd that the Religion in North America stops at Mexico. Religion in Central America redirects to a section on Central America. I favor simplifying and consolidating generally so I'd go with merge. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 07:23, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

It is true there is a linguistic and cultural divide, but either way Mexico is going to be grouped with North America so we will have some cultural heterogeneity within the page either way (not to mention Quebec in Canada).

I think there is really no standard at this point. We have Religion in North America for the northern three countries, but no page for Religion in Central America. Then we have Buddhism in Central America but no page for Buddhism in North America. There is a page for Catholic Church in North America that covers the whole continent. The Anglican Church has Central America and North America but those correspond to administrative divisions within the Anglican Church. Islam, Hinduism, and Judaism don't have pages for either.

I would lean toward a unified page since there is not too much material on either at this point, and we don't have pages for continental sub-regions for other continents (e.g., Baha'i Faith in Central Asia, Baha'i Faith in the Middle East, etc.). If we do keep them separate, then I think we would need a separate page for Baha'i Faith in the Caribbean, which would leave us with three small pages. Gazelle55 (talk) 00:54, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

So having a Central American section is inbetween merging with NA which is different than other pages, and not too regionalization for the available data (so far.) An alternative is to develop more country articles and that may substantiate more regionalization. Asia doesn't have as many countries for regionalization on the same scale. I think development of more country articles is more important in the long run anyway. Smkolins (talk) 03:00, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Hmm so what do you propose to do with the the content about the Caribbean? If it moves to the North America page then we are left with just three countries on the Central America page. Or if it becomes its own page it would have only five countries on it at this point. More <by country> articles would be great, but then they would only appear in summary style on the regional or continental pages anyway, so I think there would still be space on one continental page. Even the vastly larger religions don't have pages for regions of continents (with a couple exceptions). Gazelle55 (talk) 07:17, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

We just leave it in Baháʼí Faith in Central America, possibly renamed to be more inclusive. Smkolins (talk) 12:44, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

So we could have a Baháʼí Faith in Central America and the Caribbean page, but that would undercut the justifications for having a separate page in the first place (it would not match the pages of any other religions, and it would not be a culturally, ethnically, or linguistically homogeneous region). I guess I just don't see why we would want an intermediate level between continents and countries unless a good number of sources were covering the topic at that geographic scope. We have Islam in South Asia because of Islam's unique and distinctive history in that region, which is not tied to the modern-day national boundaries now there. We will not lose any content through a merge, and then as you say it will be most useful to develop by country articles. Gazelle55 (talk) 04:33, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@Smkolins:, any further thoughts? I feel like I have adequately addressed the objections you made but would like to reach consensus. Also, @Cuñado: and @Serv181920:, you're the usual editors on Baha'i pages, any objections to a merge? Cuñado, I know you already mentioned you're in favor but just wanted to make sure you still thought that based on the discussion above. Gazelle55 (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Gazelle55, I have no objection.Serv181920 (talk) 07:49, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

My general feeling is merge, move as much detail as we can to the "Baha'i Faith in <country>" pages, and make the continent pages high-level. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 09:34, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

• I still feel like there is a loss of relevance amidst the change but it seems like most people feel otherwise. I'm not strongly opposed, I just think it is less good than the present and your "addressed the objections" only pointed to amiguity that some articles do this and some don't. But fine.Smkolins (talk) 16:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Smkolins, let me taking one more stab at this then to try to get a proper consensus. I see three main arguments you have made, let me take them in turn.

1) Does the cultural divide justify having two separate pages? No, because there would be substantial divides within each of the two pages. The North America page would cover French-, English-, and Spanish-speaking areas with different cultural traditions. The Central America and Caribbean page would include Spanish-, English-, and French-speaking countries (and I think Portuguese and Creole) with different cultural traditions. Furthermore, the Spanish-speaking/Latin American countries would not end up united anyway, because Mexico would be on a separate page.

2) Do other religion by region pages justify the split? No, because we have religions with both (Anglicanism), a united page (Catholicism), just Central America (Buddhism), and just the northern ones (religion in general). And there are no religion pages for Central America and the Caribbean together, which is what's currently on the page. I don't think "North America" as a term ever refers to just the three northern countries, either, apart from that oddly titled "Religion in North America" page.

3) Could have a separate Central America page as the basis of future regional pages justify keeping the page? No, because if we ultimately have enough content to justify regional pages between continents and countries, we would presumably want one page for Central America and a separate one for the Caribbean. But we clearly don't have enough material to justify pages at that level yet. We have five more country pages to go for Central America and lots more country and territory pages for the Caribbean, so lots to do at the country level.

I don't quite understand what you mean by a "loss of relevance" but if you feel that's important feel free to explain further. Let me know if you feel what I've written doesn't make sense. Gazelle55 (talk) 01:10, 23 December 2020 (UTC)