Talk:Thallium(I) sulfate

Problematic move

Failing to understand the title Thallium(I) sulfate (and having only intermediate chem. knowledge), I was perhaps too hasty in moving it to Thallium sulfate, which I now see is inconsistent with what follows in the article. However, as an average user, I believe it is unencyclopedic for such a technical term to be inserted as a header without any explanation of what it means, why it has to be expressed thus, etc. Therefore, unless overruled by superior intellect and, of course, by the adequate explanation I seek, I would still argue for keeping the present version. This would require suitable editing to create consistency throughout the article. If this is not possible, the title may have to be moved back. Help, please! Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 16:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

If you don't know much chemistry, then why are you going around moving chemistry articles? Stupid, but I dont think that this move is a big deal. Most Tl compounds are univalent and only a few editors and readers are very sensitive to the difference between thallium(I) sulfate and thallium sulfate. --Smokefoot (talk) 17:03, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

For the record, I had been editing Recipe for Murder (film) and was led into looking for a link here. Bjenks (talk) 01:52, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

To Bjenks - as a guide to Wiki style I looked rapidly at other articles on metal salts. Generally the titles seem to include the oxidation state for metals with several oxidation state (Cu, Fe, etc) but not for metals with only one important oxidation state (Na, K, Mg, etc). Thallium is perhaps an intermediate case as most but not all compounds are thallium (I). I would say leave it as Thallium sulfate, unless and until someone adds an article on thallium (II) sulfate or thallium (III) sulfate. If that ever happens, then disambiguation will become necessary.

And to Smokefoot - please be more polite, especially to other editors who take the trouble to ask for advice. Dirac66 (talk) 18:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Advice accepted.--Smokefoot (talk) 21:24, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I saw the move but didn't see this discussion. I moved it back because there is indeed a rationale for writing it this way. To respond directly to Bjenks, such nomenclature is standard (and more systematic and less obscure than thallous vs. thallic), and I don't think it merits a mention in every single article of an inorganic compound with more than one possible oxidation state. If consensus is to keep it at thallium sulfate, I'll move it back. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 04:30, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I think the consensus was that both article titles would be acceptable. This is supported by the list at Category:Thallium compounds which now shows 13 article titles with oxidation state specified and 8 without.

Whatever the article title, I think the important thing is to make it clear at the outset that both names which the reader may encounter in fact describe the same compound. This will solve the problem of nomenclature inconsistency in the article, which is acceptable if the reader has been warned that both names mean the same thing.

So I have left the title with the oxidation state as more technically correct, but I have now specified in the opening paragraph that the I is sometimes omitted because no thallium sulfates of other oxidation states are of any practical interest. (I thought of saying that no thallium sulfates of other oxidation states are known, but I am not certain if that is correct.) Dirac66 (talk) 15:07, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Thallium(III) sulfate not only exists, but it is both commercially available and readily prepared in the laboratory from Thallium (I); several patents have been issued covering the preparation of Thallium (III) Sulfate. Furthermore it is very stable in aqueous acid solutions to the extent that it is used for selective oxidimetric titrations of ascorbic acid, and standardized aqueous solutions of Thallium (III) Sulfate are considered to be stable for as long as a year (Determination of Ascorbic Acid in Fruits and Pharmaceuticals by Titration with Thallium (III) - Krishna K. Verma and Sandhya Palod - Mikrochimica Acta, 1983 II, 361-367). Thallium (III) Sulfate and other Thallium (III) salts and adducts are also routinely used oxidants in preparative organic chemistry and they have been extensively studied e.g "Oxidation of Methylpentenes by Thallium (III) Sulfate - Coll. Czech. Chem. Commun. 1976, 41, 604-610"

Thallium (III) salts (including the sulfate) and other Thallium (III) compounds have extensive chemistries in both aqueous and nonaqueous solutions where they can be readily prepared in the absence of suitable reducing agents. The stability and extensive speciation of Thallium (III) in the crystal solid state is also well recognized. Some annotation or redirection of "Thallium Sulfate" needs to acknowledge Thallium (III) Sulfate as an important and stable chemical species. - Delphwhite (talk) 06:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Crystal structure of thallium(I) sulfate, Tl₂SO₄: Wallez, G.; Jaulmes, S.; Elfakir, A.; Souron, J.-P.; Quarton, M. (2004). "β-Tl₂SO₄". Acta Crystallogr. Sect. C. 60: i107–i109. doi:10.1107/S0108270104022346. For thallium(III) sulfate, Tl₂(SO₄)₃, the unit cell has been reported but the structure has not been determined: Tudo J, Revue de Chimie Minerale (1974), 11, 489–. --Ben (talk) 09:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to Delphwhite and Ben for the information about thallium(III) sulfate. I have now removed the statement that it is of no practical interest, and added instead that it exists and has some lab uses, though without going into detail since this article is about thallium(I) sulfate. Also I have added the oxidation state (I) where it was missing in the rest of the article. I have retained thallium sulfate with no oxidation state only where it is specifically identified as an alternate name. Dirac66 (talk) 20:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)