Talk:Henri Biva

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Untitled[edit]

What makes the author of the Henri Biva page think that the painter represented on the postcard at the top of the page, "Un coin du parc at Villeneuve l'Etang" is Henri Biva himself ? same question about the other postcard lower on the page, "Parc de Villeneuve l'Etang - promenade autour de l'Etang" ?

The Painter in the Parc de Villeneuve-l'Etang[edit]

The Vue Artistique postcards and others that show an artist painting at Villeneuve-l'Etang (1 of 5 pages) mention no name and so the question of who the artist may be is a valid one to pose.

A careful examination of the evidence suggests that these images do indeed represent Henri Biva painting at the Villeneuve park.


1. Henri Biva was under contract or had an agreement with the Salon des Artistes Français, or perhaps several printers that produced postcards at the time. It remains unclear who payed for the reproductions of these paintings, whether it was Biva himself, the Société des Artistes Français, or others. In either case, a large number of paintings by Henri Biva, all painted at Villeneuve-l'Etang, were reproduced on postcards principally between 1900 and 1914 (and extending, in some cases, through the 1920s). These cards all indicate the artists name and appear to have been used as promotional material for the Salon de Paris, the Salon d'Hiver, and the Société Lyonnaise des Beaux-Arts, and/or as promotional material for the artist himself. Note that this is the same timeframe within which the images representing the painter(s) in question were reproduced on postcards. Since no names are mentioned on the Vue Artistique postcards it is likely that no contract or agreement had been made between the photographer, printer and artist. These cards appear to have been used as promotional material for the Parc de Villeneuve-l'Etang itself, which had opened to the public in the 1878, around the time Biva began to paint there; though the photographs were produced after 1900.


2. There are very few other artists known to have painted at the Parc de Villeneuve-l'Etang during this same period: Paul Biva (the younger brother of Henri, see a painting here) and Lucien Biva (Henri's son, see a painting here), both of whom are mentioned in the article painted there. However, very few paintings by either Paul or Lucien Biva were painted at l'Etang de Villeneuve (most representing still-lives or other locations). On the other hand, practically all of Henri Biva's works were in fact painted at Villeneuve-l'Etang.

Alexandre Nozal (one of Henri Biva's professors) painted at the same park at least once (see here), but this is the only painting of the park found online by this artist. The style is close to Biva, but the rarity of his presence at the park suggest it is highly unlikely that he is the artist shown in the postcards.

Léon Tanzi (another one of Henri Biva's professors) painted there at least once as well (see here). He died in 1914 and his style in quite different from the paintings shown in progress on the postcards.

Eugène Berthelon (1829-1914) painted at least once at the Villeneuve park, but he would have been much older than the artist(s) shown in the photographs, and his style is inconsistent with the works shown in progress See here.


3. A close examination of several of these postcards which show an artist at working in the park reveals further evidence: the actual paintings (when visible in the image) are precisely in the style of Henri Biva. Though the actual identification any of these paintings remains a difficult task; in the absence of a Catalogue Raisonné of the artist works, one is limited to those works that have passed through public auction or are available online. In addition, the paintings in these photographs are in the process of execution, i.e., they are not finished yet, and could substantially change when completed. Nonetheless, there remains a close resemblance in composition between the paintings in progress (shown in these postcards) and several known paintings by Henri Biva painted at the park.


4. There exists at least one photo of the artist in question where both a frontal view of one work, and a rear view of another are shown (here for example and here). It is interesting to note that not only are the composition and formats of these paintings consistent with those of Henri Biva, but the stretcher shown in the photo (the back of the painting) too are of the type used by Biva. These are relatively expensive stretchers built with thick sections of wood, a crossbeam and 'keys' or 'wedges' used to tighten the canvas. Biva was a well established artist at the time (see Janet Whitmore, Ph.D., a biography of Henri Biva), exhibiting often, selling many paintings, and could permit himself, due to his commercial success, the luxury of purchasing such costly stretchers. Many of his canvases presented at public auction in recent years are observed precisely on the type of stretcher shown in this image (something I have personally witnessed directly at the public viewings before the sales).


Conclusion: Judging from the large number or Henri Biva works reproduced on postcards (all painted at the Parc de Villeneuve-l'Etang); Henri Biva's apparent association with either postcard printers, or the Salon de Paris (or both); from the fact that most (if not all) of Henri Biva's works were painted en plein air at Villeneuve-l'Etang during the period in question; that very few others (if any) artists painted on location at the park; and that there exists a strong compositional resemblance, format and type of stretcher, between the works of Henri Biva and those shown in progress in several of these postcards; it is safe to assume, with a very high confidence level, that the artist represented in these postcards is in all probability Henri Biva. Though there does exist a small possibility that Paul Biva or Lucien Biva were captured by a photographer during the same period, the fact that only Henri Biva's works were reproduced abundantly on postcards (for the Salon de Paris and other Salons) between 1900 and 1914 appears consistent with the suggestion that the artist represented painting at Villeneuve-l'Etang is indeed Henri Biva. Coldcreation (talk) 07:29, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, but certainly not convincing[edit]


Following the 4 points and conclusion above :

1. The end of the 19th and beginning of 20th centuries saw the development of picture and photo postcards, that had become easily reproducible, and they were widely used for all sorts of purposes, most of them promotional. An interesting book, among many others, and one that deals directly with the Salon, La peinture napoléonienne après l'Empire : Le salon des artistes français de 1817 à 1914 et la vogue de la carte postale illustrée, by Roger Martin. So a great many painters and artists, apart from Henri Biva, were having postcards made with their paintings, during the same period, taking care they were well identified for their own promotion.


2. The style of the paintings on the canvases partly seen on the postcards can’t seriously be identified and even less compared with any other existing paintings. The visible extent of the paintings on the postcards, and the very poor quality of the photographs, can’t allow such a thing. Henri Biva certainly often painted around Villeneuve l’Etang, but not just there (his paintings at auction sales here and there represent the part of his work that is more or less popular today, and they do tend to be the same paintings going round – there is even an American gallery pretending they are owners of a painting that was sold last year in quite another part of the world, and certainly not to them). As for the painter being Henri’s brother Paul or his son Lucien : Paul died in 1900, and Lucien was quite different looking from the man on the photograph.


3. Many, many paintings of the time favoured that sort of landscape, trees, ponds, etc. and again, the style of the paintings on the postcards can’t be judged from so limited a reproduction.


4. The wooden frame, stretchers and keys described are certainly not exceptional nor so costly that Henri Biva could be identified through his use of them. There is a very touching series of postcards, made in 1903, showing the organisation of the Salon des artistes français of that year, and one of them shows all the “refusés” (rejected) paintings, propped up against a wall, their backs to the room. They are of all sizes, and all using the same stretcher system. Yet all can’t have been wealthy and well recognised painters, (you seem to think that only those could use such apparatus) ! See : Cartes postales- Salon des artistes français 1903- among them "les refusés"

To conclude

If it was just for the promotion of the park of Villeneuve l’Etang (doubtful, though) that the postcards had been made, anyone posing as an artist in front of any canvas (and purposefully equipped with proper artist’s material, such as those canvas on wooden frames, and over typical painter’s clothes) with a painting that could have been done “sur le motif” in the park would do. No need for caling in a real painter, specially unnamed. And if the Parc de Villeneuve wished to promote itself even more by indicating that it attracted talented artists, such as Henri Biva, then it would have been one more reason for identifying Henri Biva on the postcard. Not doing it rather shows that it was not him.

On the other hand, if the postcard had been made for his own promotion, whoever the artist was, his name would obviously appear on the postcard, like on so many others. In the same way, considering that Henri Biva was enjoying some artistic recognition at the time, he would not have let a postcard representing him go by without his name on it.

Your attempt is interesting, but not convincing, and the link between Henri Biva and the “personnage” on the postcards is not proven.--Dmmtvg (talk) 14:00, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion[edit]

I am surprised that the two postcards should remain unchanged and still pretend or suggest they are representing Henri Biva. It would be far more honest to either remove them, or at least to modify their title to something like "A painter in the times and surroundings of Henri Biva".--92.156.173.155 (talk) 17:25, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In response to the remarks of Dmmtvg,[edit]

1. (a) Henri Biva certainly made sure his name featured on postcards of his paintings (and there are many); making sure he was well identified for promotional purposes. (b) Authorities representing the Parc de Villeneuve l’Etang had no obligation to include the names of persons featured in the photographs of the park (artists or otherwise). Had there been obligations (e.g., for legal reasons) they would have likely included names.

2. The style and compositions of the paintings on the canvases seen on the postcards can be examined and compared with other existing paintings. There appears to be a great similarity between the paintings of Henri Biva and the ones shown, either in part or in full, in the postcards under scrutiny. See for example paintings by Biva entitled "By the river", "A quiet stretch of the river", "Au bord du lac", and compare with the painting in this postcard. See also the composition of the painting in this postcard and compare it with "The quiet lake", "A wooded river landscape". Though not the exact same paintings, there are compositional similarities relating to the artistic style of Henri Biva clearly observable in all of theses works.

3. Again, the style and composition of the paintings on some of the "Vue artistique" postcards is visible despite the quality of the reproductions. As mentioned above, very few artists painted at Villeneuve l’Etang, and the compositional style of those besides Henri Biva who did paint there (e.g., Tanzi and Nozal)) appear manifestly quite different.

4. The stretchers and keys are consistent with the type used by Henri Biva. This in itself is not proof, it is simply another contributing piece of evidence. As you mention, other artists made use of similar material. However, your argument that the "refusés" all used the same stretcher system is not justified by the 1903 photos you linked. Many artists who's works were refused at the Salon's were recognized painters, or would soon be. See for example the earlier Salon des Refusés. The first Salon d'Automne in 1903 was organized by Georges Rouault, André Derain, Henri Matisse, Angele Delasalle and Albert Marquet as a reaction to the conservative policies of the official Paris Salon.

Conclusion: The Parc de Villeneuve l’Etang very evidently had postcards made for promotional (or other) purposes. There was, too, evidently, no obligation to include in the postcards the names of those persons appearing in them (the fact that none of them do is proof enough).

The compositions of the paintings visible in the Parc de Villeneuve l’Etang postcards are very closely related to known works by Henri Biva (and are in fact unrelated to the few works of others who painted there).

The link between Henri Biva and the personage on the Villeneuve l’Etang postcards is more than compelling, while the diverse observational constraints rule out other artists (such as Tanzi and Nozal) that painted at the park on rare occasions.

It is safe to assume, hence, with a very high level of confidence, that the artist represented in these postcards is Henri Biva. Coldcreation (talk) 09:11, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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