Talk:Maya Deren

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Edwardpan911.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:45, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jvarne. Peer reviewers: Cbamber, Lyavari.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Derenkowsky or Derenkavskaya?[edit]

Her original surname in the article has been changed from Derenkavskaya to Derenkowsky - but the latter seems unlikely as a masculine ending whereas -kaya is a female ending? AllyD 19:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Meshes of the Afternoon"[edit]

I've split this into a subsection and flagged it. At best, I reckon this section belongs on the Meshes of the Afternoon page rather than the biographical page, but maybe it doesn't belong at all? In tone, it reads like an essay about Deren(&Hammid)'s film, describing the action and the response which "we" are invited to have. Views anyone? AllyD (talk) 20:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Text (improved by another editor) now moved into page on the film itself. AllyD (talk) 15:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Voodoo? Vodou? Voudoun?[edit]

Seems there's inconsistent spelling in this article—although I realize that we shouldn't re-spell the quote from Robert Stone (whose spelling appears to be the preferred one anyway), the different spellings ought to be reconciled. No? SkepticL (talk) 01:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A link to the appropriate Wiki article, Haitian Vodou would perhaps be appropriate. However, the spelling is not entirely consistent even on that page. "Vodou" does, however, appear to be the most correctly favoured modern term, both from that Wiki article and also a couple of random books such as Filan & Kaldera, "Drawing down the Spirits" Destiny Books:2009; and another of Filan's works, "The Haitian Vodou Handbook" (Destiny Books 2007). Again, from another author, we have "Haitian Vodou: An Introduction to Haiti's Indigenous Spiritual Tradition" by Mambo Chita Tann (Llewellyn 2012). Against this, in the edition of her book which I have (The Paladin 1975 reprint, with a cover title, "The Voodoo Gods"), the spelling used by Deren in the text "Voudoun" (a spelling not mentioned on the Wiki etymology page and which, out of respect to Deren, one of the first leading authorities in the English language, should possibly be added.) "Voudoun" is similarly used in the collected volume, "Maya Deren and the American Avant-Garde." Prior to Deren, the major authority of which I am aware was W.B. Seabrook's, "The Magic Island," which uses the spelling "Voodoo." It seems the word in English may have evolved somewhat, although there is a clear case for distinguishing the Haitian religion from other similar practices elsewhere. Another Wiki page, Voodoo, for instance, makes what seems to me a valid distinction in its listings between Haitian Vodou, Louisiana Voodoo "sometimes known as New Orleans Voodoo" and West African Vodun. Perhaps this is ultimately a matter for the most experienced of the Wiki editors with familiarity both with the subject matter and the evolution and general usage of language (which may be more pertinent than a word seemingly based on an obscure etymology from another language but which is no longer in very great use by the practitioners.) Although one very necessary distinction is perhaps made by a contemporary academic McGee A. Haitian Vodou and voodoo: Imagined religion and popular culture. Studies in Religion/Sciences Religieuses. 2012;41(2):231-56.: that "Vodou is persistently plagued by a poor reputation. This is buttressed, in part, by the frequent appearance in popular culture of the imagined religion of ‘‘voodoo.’’" I will make a few tentative amendments: please feel free to undo or improve on them. Parzivalamfortas (talk) 11:29, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy pruning[edit]

I'm about to start pruning down the legacy section to actual material activity and avoid the danger of tending to a list of everyone who has worn a Deren T shirt. The facts in this section on the page are often through the wrong end of the telescope: the person's interest in Deren is more notable on their page than on Deren's.

One text which will probably go is worth noting here as it could survive in the main text if the "interesting" was made more concrete: "An interesting reference to Deren is published in the journals of New York critic and journalist Leo Lerman, published as The Grand Surprise: The Journals of Leo Lerman (New York: Knopf/Random House, 2007), p. 244." AllyD (talk) 09:17, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, RE this problematic passage

Maya Deren had a passionate sense of social commitment and moral purpose that distinguished her from the less favorable values of the entertainment industry; from the indifferent, ironic attitudes of her surrealist and dada predecessors; from the cool, hip attitudes of her Beat successors; from the passive aesthetic of stylized filmmakers; and from the pretentious attitudes of contemporary film theorists.(1) Early political Socialist activism served as the base for Deren's organizational and creative endeavors; her pursuit of art was grounded in her strong ethical, moral and social convictions.(2)

(1) is cited simply to Maya Deren and the American Avant-Garde: Includes the complete text of An Anagram of Ideas on Art, Form, and Film, edited by Bill Nichols, University of California Press, Berkeley, 2001, pages 3-10, 268. That's nine pages that say who-knows-what. We can't make flowery claims about abstract terms without proper attribution. Saying that a book about avant garde filmmaking may have said these things is inadequate. This needs quotes, direct page numbers and context, because without all that, this is just the editor's POV interpretation of what the book may say.

(2) is cited simply to An Anagram of Ideas on Art, Form and Film by Maya Deren, The Alicat Bookshop Press, 1946. No page number, no quote, nothing. And "strong ethical, moral and social convictions" is not only WP:PEACOCK but redundant with "passionate sense of social commitment and moral purpose ". --Tenebrae (talk) 22:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the quoted passage is sloppy, poorly supported and quite properly deleted.

However, something more specific is probably worthy of inclusion and appropriate if it underlies some of her recorded theoretical approaches (as long as it is appropriately documented).

Turim, in her chapter "The Ethics of Form" (indeed included in Bill Nichols edited work, 'Maya Deren and the American Avant-Garde'), quotes Deren (from 'Anagram'):

"For the serious artist the esthetic problem of form is, essentially, and simultaneously a moral problem . . . the form of a work of art is the physical manifestation of its moral structure."

This is a philosophical statement that can evoke serious consideration in some circles that examine the philosophy of art (on checking, this also maybe appears to be right up Turim's street, given her other involvements). Without wanting to overdo it, such a mention would enable other students of film to link Deren's work with other filmmakers in a particularly valid way, and also cite her in studies involving philosophy or art or moral philosophy.

There are many other references to moral distinctions in 'Anagram' (should we quote them? or is Turim more accessible?) Deren was not, as far as a know, a classically trained philosopher: but as a creative artist the inspirations which she personally and specifically claims would seem to me to be valid inclusions biographically (and significant enough for wiki I would think, given the importance Deren attributes to them.)

I'll leave it on the table in case an experienced wiki editor wishes to shape it up or offer objections, and maybe include it some time later if there is consensus or no objections. Someone might want to ask if it is 'legacy' section however: possibly more suited to something delineating her personal style of working? Parzivalamfortas 16:34, 17 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parzivalamfortas (talk • contribs)

Cinema[edit]

Divine Horsemen, although not her most talked about film, is a full-length production and an important film from an ethnological viewpoint. Should it not possibly be included in the annotated list of her cinematic achievements with a short description? Or excluded on the basis that it was only completed posthumously? Possible overlap with another section would need to be avoided.Parzivalamfortas (talk) 13:15, 4 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Additions Proposal[edit]

Hi, I'm working on adding to Maya Deren's Wikipedia page for a class. I have a list of sources I plan to use to help me with research on Deren's life and career. Along with the sources is what I believe the sources can add to this page.

Geller, L. Theresa. “The Personal Cinema of Maya Deren: Meshes of the Afternoon and its Critical Reception in the History of the Avant-Garde” This source seeks to make connections between Deren's first and most screened film, Meshes of the Afternoon, and Deren's own role within the history of the American avant-garde to draw conclusions on themes in Deren’s filmmaking. This will provide a scholarly opinion on what makes Deren’s films “feminist” and how we can tell.

Nichols, Bill. “Maya Deren and the American Avant-Garde”. University of California Press, Berkeley, CA This source talks about Deren’s upbringing, background in voodoo, and her influence on American Avant-Garde during the post-war era in a collection of essays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jvarne (talk • contribs) 23:43, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply] 


Rabinovitz, Lauren. “Points of Resistance”. Maya Deren and the American Avant-garde Cinema. University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago.

This chapter on Maya Deren was written by Lauren Rabinovitz. Rabinovitz is a professor of American Studies and Cinematic Arts at the University of Iowa. Points of Resistance is her book dedicated to women filmmakers of the mid 20th century creating projects belonging to the avant-garde genre. She writes about the contributions of three female directors to cinema history and in what ways their carers influenced the trajectory of women in American post-war era film history from feminist to political angles. The sections of Maya Deren provide in-depth detail into the life, career, filmography, and her relation to the shifting institutions in the post-war era as a woman in Hollywood.

Vieve, A. Clark. “The legend of Maya Deren: a documentary biography and collected works” This sources will prove to be valuable to my research because of its extensive chronological presentation of Deren’s published and unpublished articles, with selected reviews of her work, extensive interviews with family, friends, and acquaintances, and a range of contextual material.

Keller, Sarah. Maya Deren Incomplete Control // Film and Culture Series; Film and Culture; Maya Deren In this source, Sara Keller writes critically about Deren and gives an interpretation to her films. The book includes an analysis of Deren’s most famous films such as Meshes of the Afternoon and Witches Cradle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jvarne (talk • contribs) 04:59, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

“Extreme malnutrition”[edit]

Err - how does one suffer extreme malnutrition in New York in 1965? Was she anorexic? This needs explaining. 80.189.11.191 (talk) 13:46, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Changes[edit]

I am working on improving this wiki page for a class.

I am going to edit minor issues (such as the inconsistency listed of when Deren was awarded the Guggenheim Fellowship Grant). The correct year is 1946.

I propose that the order of subtopics is changed- I think that it would make more sense to put the section "Personal Life" between "Early Career" and "Film Career", as I think that the article will then read more smoothly.

I will also add more citations- including more citations from the sources already listed in this article.

Pepinillopicante (talk) 20:34, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian-born?[edit]

"Ukrainian-born (then part of the Russian Empire, now independent Ukraine)" So, then she wasn't Ukrainian-born, but Russian born, right? If there was not a independent state called Ukraine to give her citizenship, how could she be Ukrainian-born. Would you say Julius Caesar was Italian-born (then part of the Roman Republic, now Republic of Italy) or that Albert Camus was Algerian-born (then part of the French Third Republic, now independent Algeria). Well, Camus was born in Mondovi, current Dréan, then France, today Algeria. He was born French in French Algeria. Maya was born in Kiev, part of the Russian Empire. Not in Kyiv capital of Ukraine. Let's not let ourselves be dragged by war propaganda and used language properly. We don't need to say she was Ukrainian-born to express that she was born in a Jewish (non practicing) family that probably spoke Ukrainian as first language. JoeSatana (talk) 17:20, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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