Talk:Athanasios Orphanides

Appropriate image?

Two photos, apparently of Orphanides, have been provided for this page. One is more formal than the other. Which is appropriate, and why? See discussion here. Rinconsoleao (talk) 11:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

POV section tag

Discussion initiated at WP:BLPN#Athanasios Orphanides. January (talk) 20:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I would like to strongly object to the biased and unfair reverting of this section by January who seems to think that Wikipedia exists to just glorify living people. It is totally unjustified to remove a section that is cited on grounds of fear that it is contentious when January claims to know very little on the subject of regulating banks. You are preventing correct information from being shared and are violating the founding principles of Wikipedia by presenting a biased one sided view of a living person. User Kyproulla who has composed most of this article is the spin doctor of Mr Orphanides and January is protecting the fabricated biased favourable view by not allowing any changes to the article.

87.228.193.254 (talk) 17:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)user using shared ip87.228.193.254 (talk) 17:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Please no personal attacks against January. I happen to agree with her. What you are trying to add is the opinion of only one person. This is undue weight. Find more criticism by more people and then you may have a case. But not until then. And please stop your edit-warring. You have been reported and you may end up getting blocked. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 11:00, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Let me explain my involvement in this article. I'm from England and I did not know who this person was until this discussion concerning someone trying to switch the image to one of him with a beer in his hand, referenced above. That image turned out to be a copyright violation (which makes me think it was uploaded with the intention of making the subject look foolish - whoever did that obviously picked the most unflattering image they could find). I watchlisted the article to ensure someone didn't try to re-add that image. Since then this otherwise rarely-edited article has been getting bizarre edits - unexplained blanking, unexplained removal of the current image (which the recent edits by the IP above have continued to do), additions of unsourced content, and even a personal attack [1]. I was the one reverting because I seemed to be the only active editor still watching the article. I have no opinion on Orphanides, but these edits were disruptive and violated WP:BLP by adding unsourced criticism, and I'm sure any responsible editor seeing those edits would have reverted them. January (talk) 17:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Dear January as an independent observer may I just kindly point out the following:

1. I am from Cyprus and it is common knowledge that the Central Bank Governor is appointed by the president for a 5 year term and the only person that can renew or not renew his term is the Cyprus President, you do not need a citation for this, it is part of Cypriot Constitution and has been occuring since Cyprus's Independence from the British empire in 1960, why you consider such an edit that just points out this fact (5 year term, renewable or not) as not appropriate is beyond me. This is not a personal attack on the governor.

2. If you look at similar articles of Central Bank Governors for example Ben Bernanke or Sir Mervyn King there are sections with criticism, no person can hold a public office without being criticised. I can also confirm that there is a lot of debate in the Cyprus media about the current Governor's handling of the banking crisis in Cyprus, the fact that two banks that happen to be systemically important Financial institutions need 3.5bn Euro in fresh capital with great probability that they will not be able to raise it via their shareholders, means that by June 2012 these banks might have to be bailed out by the Cypriot state that is already over leveraged, a case similar to Ireland, which bailed out its banks and was forced into an IMF bailout, therefore wanting to hide this fact from this article is again inexplicable. The president of The Cypriot Shareholders Investors Association (PASEXA) did in fact openly criticise the present governor for his regulation of these two Cypriot banks and allowing them to buy too many Greek Government Bonds and expand their lending to customers in Greece in 2010 at the peak of the Greek recession, again that was cited by the editor who added this as a source, the editor also for everyone's benefit transalted the source. I persoanlly think the edits were made in good faith.

However, I agree with you that the beer image was unflattering and wrong and should not have been placed on Wikipedia independent of the Copyright violation and also that removing of the current image should not have occured by the person who added the criticism section. I do think however that your draconian policing of this article was a bit over the top for reasons explained above.

Many thanks

212.31.102.140 (talk) 13:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)Cypriot on shared IP and independent observer 212.31.102.140 (talk) 13:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing "Draconian" in January's actions. We have a policy on Wikipedia called The Biographies of Living People Policy. According to this policy you must produce reliable and significant information in order for it to be added to the article. You have not. As it stands only one person, the president of The Cypriot Shareholders Investors Association, has criticised Orphanides. This is not enough. It is what we call here undue weight, WP:UNDUE. What happened to the rest of the people on the island? Is no one else complaining? That speaks for itself. Everyone else must be happy then. So until you find more people criticising Orphanides this info is not getting into the article. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 15:55, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

You say you are an "independent observer" - are you claiming not to be the same person who added the material and removed the image? If so, why did you also remove the image with this edit? January (talk) 17:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

January with all due respect, I work in a large private sector organisation with a shared IP address I can assure you that it was not me personally that removed the image, maybe someone else that also shares this IP? Yes I am claiming I have not personally ever removed the image of this article and never did a disruptive edit on this article.

Now with regard my specific points I have read Wikipedia policies, with regard to point no 1 on the 5 year term of the governor I see no reason for its removal, it is a fact and it should be part of the article.

Dr K, with regards point no 2 it is no just the President of The Investors association Mr M Olymbios that has criticised Mr Orphanides, he has been criticised by the following people: the Cyprus President himself Mr Demetris Christofias for undue intereference in Cypriot Fiscal Policy that does not fall within the remit of the Central Bank Governor-his remit is for monetary policy and bank regulation, the leader of AKEL, the governing party, Mr Andros Kyprianou in his speech in the Cypriot Parliament a few days ago at the voting of the annual Cyprus budget has criticised him on his less than perfect regulation of Cypriot banks and the potential that they might have to be bailed out, Mr Andreas Vegenopoulos ex Chairman of Cyprus Popular Bank and second shareholder of the bank with 9.7% shareholding via the Marfin Investment Group has criticised him repeatedly for his absolute powers, dictatorial manner of never consulting with anyone prior to taking decisions and Orphanides' favouritism towards regulating Bank of Cyprus more leniently when compared to Cyprus Popular Bank and the fact that Orphanides imposed as Chairman of Cyprus Popular Bank, ex Cyprus Finance minister and Orphanides personal friend, Michalis Sarris, without prior consultation with the banks shareholders, sufficient is to say that this appointment may be voted down by shareholders at the 8th February 2012, Annual General Meeting of the bank. The examples of criticism are endless and for various topics, even the president of the Cypriot Bank Employees Union (ETYK) Mr Loizos Hadjicostis has criticised him for his cuting of the wages of Central Bank Employees without prior consultation with the European Central Bank and thus compromising the independence of the Central Bank of Cyprus as an institution, by just adopting measures taken to cut civil servants wages. The Cypriot Auditor General Mrs Chrystalla Yiorkatzi has also in her annual audit of the Central Bank of Cyprus criticised the fact that Mr Orphanides extended the service by 2 years of a retired Senior Director beyond the retirement age of 63, without consulting with ETYK.

As such, Dr K with all due respect, it is not just a matter of you as administrator judging (Personal attack removed) that "every one else must be happy with him then" and that the criticism is "not going in the article", research the sources of criticism, yourself, I also urge January to do the same, find the citations and add the criticism to the article in a way you believe is balanced, objective and not defamatory. The problem is most criticism is in the Greek Language and as the user that tried to add the changes you will have to resort to online translators, unless Dr K is a Greek speaker. Also I urge you to visit www.stockwatch.com.cy blog Section where debate about the governor have been raging as early as 2010, with most commentators being of the view that the Governor has messed up bank regulation! It is undue weight to only present a favourable view of a living person in an article, largely based on his own website and his publications posted on his website i.e. sources controlled by the person in question directly or his spin doctors! Also If I may use a legal term "lying by ommission" is not an objective way to present a wikipedia article.

Also please view articles of other Central bank Governors or regulators, they all have criticism and discussion about policies, we cannot just have an article looking like someone's CV or job application if we are to present an objective and fair view.

Many thanks for your understanding.

213.207.145.246 (talk) 08:34, 16 December 2011 (UTC) Truly Independent Observer, wishing a fair view of this individual to be shown

Your insults despite you being warned about them continue. I remind you that we have a civility policy WP:CIVIL on Wikipedia which I advise you to read. If you insist on insulting other editors you may be blocked. Blogs are not reliable sources. You should read our policy of reliable sources WP:RS and verification WP:V. All the claims you make about Orphanides come without any citations. Until you come up with reliable sources to cite the facts and verify them they cannot be included here. And I don't have to research anything. The burden is upon you to submit evidence from reliable sources for the claims you want add to the article. Finally, FYI I am not an administrator. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 22:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

On the point about the 5-year term, my only reason for removing this addition was that it was not cited to a reliable source. I initially tagged it {{citation needed}}, only removing it three months later because no source was provided. If anyone wants to re-add it with a reliable source, that would be fine (specifics of his appointment would be better in the body of the article than the lead IMO but that's not a major issue).

If you have reason to believe that the editor who wrote the research section has a conflict of interest, you could take it up at WP:COIN or note this at the existing WP:BLPN thread for other editors to review if you wish. January (talk) 23:22, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

For a start I have no relation to the user with IP starting with 213. Let me get this straight Dr K you are saying the onus is on us as editors to find citations yet you wish to have a biased article by ommiting criticism as you can't be bothered to find them yourself. Ok I have read the various Wikipedia policies and it seems strange to me that things are as such, when people preventing edits just say there are no citations, how is this constructive? How does it help Wikipedia to include all relevant information?

January if the fact that Cypriot Central Bank Governors have been appointed for five year terms and then their term is renewed or not as per the Cypriot constitution. Is this not enough proof that this should be in the article do you need to find a newspaper citation for this? Oh dear. Lastly, user Kyproulla is employed by Orphanides on a salary to present the Governor in a favourable light. This is one of the reason why the Cypriot press desists from criticising Mr Orphanides. As more experienced moderators of Wikipedia I would have expected Dr K and January to be a bit more inquisitive and constructively make this article more balanced, the article does in fact read like a CV or job application, basically singing the praises of the subject with no critical thought or objectivity. I will not revert it again, if Dr K and January are satisfied with the article as is, so be it, let's leave it like this thus presenting a biased favourable view of a person who has caused great controversy in Cypriot society!

87.228.143.217 (talk) 19:10, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I understand your well-made points. The problem here is that I couldn't care less about the subject of this article. This is why I don't want to bother to research about it. Time is precious. I prefer to waste it for things that I like doing. I came here to assist in upholding the principles of Wikipedia chief of which is verifiabiliy also known by the acronym WP:V which is based on finding reliable sources also known as WP:RS. The subject of the article is covered under our policy of living people WP:BLP which is clear in stating that any information entered into the article must be verifiable by top-notch sources. Therefore anyone wishing to add to the article must meet the criterion of WP:BURDEN for adding it. Ουτως η άλλως χάρηκα για την γνωριμία και σας εύχομαι Καλά Χριστούγεννα και ευτυχισμένο τον καινούργιο χρόνο. Δώστε τους χαιρετισμούς μου στο ωραίο νησί σας. :) Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 19:31, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If I've interpreted the first part of your comment correctly, you seem to be saying that you disagree that you should be expected to cite sources for your own additions, in which case I think we've reached a stalemate as WP:V, which requires you to do that, is policy (I don't think there's anything to be acheived by this discussion spinning off into the merits of the policies themselves). As I said above, anyone who has reason to believe this article has been edited by someone with a conflict of interest should consider raising this at WP:COIN. January (talk) 19:45, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

my last point dear January is the following with regard the 5 year term, my argument is simple and logical, there should be no citation for this. This is a fact based on a primary source: the Cypriot constitution, If I get some time I might find the English version of the clause where it says that the governor of the Cyprus Central Bank is appointed for 5 years by the Cypriot president and only he/she can renew the term or not. Having to find a secondary source such as a newspaper that says this, is a bit odd for me of want of a stronger term. This is bizzare! I don't know of you catch my drift but these are policies/rules gone mad.

My best regards Dr K Χρονια Πολλά! 87.228.193.254 (talk) 18:51, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Ευχαριστώ πολύ. Επίσης, και Καλή Χρονιά με Υγεία και Ευτυχία σε σας και όλους στην όμορφη Κύπρο. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 19:01, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I said a reliable source, I didn't actually specify secondary or rule out a primary source. The point is, you know from your personal knowledge that it's in the Cypriot constitution but many general readers wouldn't, that's why it needs to be cited. January (talk) 19:03, 18 December 2011 (UTC) BTW presumably there'll have to be an announcement by next May on whether his term has been renewed so it should be sourceable at that point. January (talk) 19:08, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Let me second user with ip 87.228. etc this is a bit like health and safety laws (elf en safety) in the UK January, with all due respect I have lived in the UK for 7 years and they drove me mad, its rules gone mad so is having to cite something that is enshrined in a country's costitution!!

Χρόνια Πολλά Dr K και απολογούμαι για την επίθεση. 212.31.102.140 (talk) 12:16, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Χρόνια Πολλά και σε σας. Ευχαριστώ πολύ. Δυστυχώς η αντιπαράθεση συντακτών είναι ενδημική σ' αυτό το στυλ ιστιακής εγκυκλοπαίδειας όπως η Βικιπέδια και συμβαίνει συχνά. Κατά το βαθμό που και οι δύο μας πέσαμε σ' αυτή την παγίδα εκνευρισμού σας καταλαβαίνω απόλυτα. Δεν υπάρχει πρόβλημα και σας ευχαριστώ για το θάρρος και την ειλικρίνειά σας. Με φιλικούς χαιρετισμούς. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 17:06, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

To January, please note the following issue with this article, the article relates to the Governor of the Central Bank of Cyprus who took up office in May 2007 until today, yet all his research contributions which were published and are (with the exception of the last one with Williams, which although published in 2008, must have been researched before that) mentioned in the article, are before his public office. Is this not a slanted view towards pre-2007 events i.e. before he took up public office? Is there not a template for this according to Wikipedia policy, I would expect this to be added to the article and I don't add it myself in case you think i'm doing something unhelpful.

I would expect some mention of what the governor has acheived during his tenure as governor from 2007 until 2012, do you not think all that is missing from the article? 212.31.102.140 (talk) 12:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

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