Q1: Why does this article have The in the title? Most articles don't.
A1: The name The Holocaust is common usage. Article titles follow subjects, not other articles. See also previous discussions on the question, linked in the move banner below.
Q2: The Holocaust was not only about Jews; the total death toll was more like 11+ million.
A2: As it says in the lead sentence which defines the scope of the article, the Holocaust "was the genocide of European Jews during World War II". As explained elsewhere in the lead and body, "separate Nazi persecutions killed a similar or larger number of non-Jewish civilians and POWs". As also explained in the lead and the body, "the term Holocaust is sometimes used to refer to the persecution of these other groups"; such uses of the term Holocaust constitute "significant minority views" as explained in Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. In accordance with WP:NPOV policy, Wikipedia states the mainstream view in its own voice, while also explaining significant minority views.
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WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIESWikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations (9 May 2021):
The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard.
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been designated as a contentious topic.
Between 1941 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews and 11 million Christians.
"Taking into account all of the victims of persecution, the Nazis systematically murdered an estimated six million Jews and an additional 11 million people during the war. Donald Niewyk suggests that the broadest definition, including Soviet civilian deaths, would produce a total of 17 million victims."
Christianity was not a punishable offense in the Nazi Germany. The suggested edit is not acceptable.-Aristophile (talk) 00:31, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Between 1941 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some 6 million Jews and 11 million non-Jews. 2601:444:300:B070:4D28:E7B6:760F:96EF (talk) 02:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See the FAQ at the top of this page. Acroterion(talk) 02:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The holocaust wasn’t just Jews. It was gypsys blacks and basically any minority that the natzi came into contact with. I understand Jews were heavily hit. But so where gypsys 2A02:C7B:124:1400:89CA:7EC8:B80D:5135 (talk) 22:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
please read the FAQ at the top of this page. Acroterion(talk) 22:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This will be a point of contention until we cover this a bit..... it is odd that this is one of the only articles about the topic that doesn't cover that aspect like Holocaust victims...... I can see why things are confusing for our readers.... Thus we end up articles with tags like at Aftermath of the Holocaust. Moxy🍁 04:32, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a Holocaust victims page already. Perhaps a link somewhere as "see also" may help? But the FAQ does deal with this a bit. Ramos1990 (talk) 05:04, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not confusing readers, and these comments are not indicative of what readers think. Some people not believing that what an article says is true is not an indication of a problem with the article. Reliable sources contradicting the article would indicate a problem. Until and unless somebody brings some actual sources, there's no reason to change the article based on evidence-free talk page comments. Levivich (talk) 15:51, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We clearly need to be more clear...... as indicated by multiple inquiries here over a period of years. We need to educate the reader off the bat that these things are associated but not the same. It's obvious most only read the first paragraph or so. Moxy🍁 15:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we should add to the first paragraph, "Please read at least as far as the third paragraph". --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 16:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree we need to hold the reader's hands but that's excessive and funny...lol..... The first paragraph define what this is it should also define what it is not.Moxy🍁 16:03, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first paragraph should define what is, and what it is not?? That doesn't make sense to me. It's not a lot of things? I also disagree that it's clear we need to be more clear. The article gets 125k+ page views per week; one comment a week (always by an IP or brand new account), or 0.001%, doesn't indicate a problem with the article. Levivich (talk) 16:18, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Moxy here. The first sentence reads The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II., while the FAQ reads: understood as being primarily the genocide of the Jews.
We shouldn't just ill-define something, only to walk things back later. Especially when the FAQ already gives a clear alternative. JackTheSecond (talk) 16:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The FAQ is not an RS. To the extent the FAQ differs from the article (and I don't think it does), the FAQ should be changed, not the article. Levivich (talk) 16:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I find it odd you don't want to educate readers on this point off the bat. Why are we defining this in two different places of the lead? With the second being completely out of place in the context of its paragraph. Moxy🍁 16:16, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I'll move it back to the first paragraph. I think it flows better in the third but if you think it'll help I guess it doesn't hurt to try. Levivich (talk) 16:19, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let's try and see what others think. Moxy🍁 16:22, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is wiki linked in the first paragraph. It's also a hatnote at the top of the article. It's also a hatnote in the relevant body section on deaths, and its wiki linked in the body. (And all this for an article that is a tagged POVFORK of this article.) Levivich (talk) 16:52, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That "primarily" quote in the FAQ is from an older version of the article and no longer appears in the current version. I edited the FAQ to replace that quote with quotes taken from the current version. That should help clear up any confusion between the FAQ and the article. Levivich (talk) 16:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
5 million non Jews. It’s so much worse than 6 million Jews. My 100 relatives were Czech. According to hitler’s final solution they were good enough to be worked to death. Gypsies, Jews, & gays went straight to the showers/ovens. Poles & Russians might have had the honor of being worked to death for the reich as well. To only say 6 million Jews cheapens it. The Jews don’t own the holocaust. My 100 relatives got put into the same ovens JWK1970s (talk) 11:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
why does it say 1941 when it started before? 46.31.102.28 (talk) 03:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Nazi German regime implemented this genocide between 1941 and 1945. ..."1941: Key Dates". Holocaust Encyclopedia. Mar 1, 1941. Retrieved May 13, 2024. Moxy🍁 03:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those aren't the years of World War 2the paragraph is referring to. Those are the years of the Holocaust itself.CRBoyer 23:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nazi Germany immediately began murdering Jews right after occupying Poland (1939). The Holocaust started in 1939. "In 1939, Nazi Germany invaded Poland while the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east. In German-occupied Poland, Jews were killed, subjected to forced labor, and forced to move to ghettos. Some 7,000 Jews were killed in 1939, but open mass killings subsided until June of 1941." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Poland 8barzmusic (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Read the complete lead at Final Solution for a more detailed answer. It is a matter of debate, yes. But the beginning of it isn't considered synonymous with a specific point in time. JackTheSecond (talk) 00:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I note the lede of the article Names of the Holocaust has degenerated into a mess. I was going to simply copy-paste the section The Holocaust#Terminology and scope from here to there, but fixing up the references would take more time than I have at the moment. jnestorius(talk) 13:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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