Talk:Banjica concentration camp/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

Article (edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: PocklingtonDan (talk · contribs) 16:41, 8 October 2013 (UTC)


Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear and concise, it respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct. I'm having trouble reconcilign some facts in the article: from the lead: "By 1942, most victims were executed at the firing ranges.... 23,697 individuals were detained....At least 3,849 of these perished" 3000 is not "most" of 23000. Can you clarify please? Also, you use the term "firing range" twice, but wikipedia's own article shooting range defines "A shooting range or firing range is a specialized facility designed for firearms practice", which does not seem appropriate. I think you need to reword this.
1b. it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. I do not see any MoS concerns. The list of notable prisoners seems reasonable.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. The references are well laid out and in keeping with the MoS. However, not all the websites and eBooks have retrieval dates, which need adding please. All book refs look to have page numbers given, which is good.
2b. it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines. The article is generally very well cited indeed, for which the editor is to be commended. However, all controversial statements or simply those that are shocking or likely to be challenged require refs, some of the statements in this article currently lack them, eg: " inmates would spend several days in the custody of the Gestapo and in Special Police prisons, where they would be tortured and beaten. By the time they were transferred from these detention centers to Banjica, some of the prisoners would already have displayed signs of serious mutilation.", "He collaborated enthusiastically with the Gestapo" are a few that do really need cites
2c. it contains no original research. I spotted no signs of original research
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. The coverage of the history of the operation of the concentration camp is very good. The coverage either side of this is very weak. How was the site sourced? What was there before? Who built it? What happened afterwards? Was it torn down? Is any part of it left?
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). The article is tightly focused on its topic and does not stray off-topic at all.
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each. I'm not sure that I'm happy with the focus on Jews in the lead. The lead reads "23,697 individuals were detained in Banjica throughout the war, including 455 to 688 Jews". If Jews were only 3% of the inmates by your quoted figures, why are you referencing them? Is it not more notable to address the 97%? We need to be neutral, notable and objective here and focus on the scope of this article. This needs changing please, since it is not appropriate as it stands: this is an article on a concentration camp in a general encyclopaedia, not in some register of Jewish deaths. The focus on Jewish deaths is disturbing. I'm not clear if its pro-Jew, or anti-Jew, but it is not neutral, and not appropriate. I also don't like the following wording in the "background" Section: "Upon capturing Belgrade, the Germans ordered the city's 12,000 Jews to report themselves to the occupational authorities; 9,145 of them did so. On 14 May, Jews were removed from all official posts and a series of anti-Jewish laws were passed which prohibited Jews from performing a variety of tasks that ranged from going to restaurants to riding streetcars.[5]". Why is this relevant to the article? If the article was "Anti-Jewish behaviour in Belgrade in WWII" it would fit, but on the facts from the article itself, the Jewish population of the camp was negligible (3%). I suspect you are sourcing figures from Jewish holocaust memorial groups. They inevitably have something of a a slant or agenda. I just don't think it is relevant or notable. Lets not make the story what any Jewish groups want the story to be, lets stick to the facts. If 97% of the inmates were not Jewish, what *were* they, why were they there, why where they being prosecuted, *that* needs to be the focus of the article. The article itself admits "The camp itself was used mostly to intern anti-fascists", but the listing given when listing who was interred is "...torture and execute Jews, anti-fascists and those deemed unworthy of life" and elsewhere "....camp was later used to hold Serbs, Jews, Roma, captured Partisans" etc - note the undue emphasis at the head of each list of "Jews". You do a disservice focusing in a non-neutral way on the Jewish victims. This is probably the fault of your sources rather than you, I appreciate, but the GA review is a FAIL for this alone I'm afraid.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Both the main editors "23 Editor" and "No such user" appear to have recent dispute resolution/edit war marks against them (for Ivica Dačić and Novia Sad. I do not see any sign of this in this article in particular, but it is not a good sign. I will mark this as on HOLD and spend more time than usual reviewing the edit history of the article, as well as its neutrality.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by images:
6a. images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content. I am happy that they are both correctly sourced and are both valid for inclusion
6b. images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. Both images are correctly captioned and are appropriate for the article. I would however like to see them swapped. The image used at the top is quite charged: a distinction is drawn between concentration camps and extermination camps, and this camp seems to be classed as a concentration camp, and actually had relatively low fatalaties as a percentage of its inmaates, looked at objectively: my concern therefore is that the image of the soldier is not the most appropriate, since visually and in its camption it suggests extermination, which was not the norm at the camp, and is a misleading impression to give. I am not saying don't include that image, it is historically valid and should be included in the article. However it does not best sum up and represent the article. I would swap out the secondary image to the top of the page.
7. Overall assessment. This is a FAIL today on grounds of neutrality. The article places far too much emphasis on Jewish victims, and is biased and unencyclopaedic in that respect. We are not a Jewish holocaust remembrance organisation, we present the facts. The main victims were anti-fascists, this needs emphasising, and the Jewish angle de-emphasising. This is simply to bring this article in line with the facts. We must not be emotive in this article, or seek to fit in with a wider narrative, we stick to the facts only. I am happy to re-review this article speedily when some of my concerns above are addressed, to save you waiting several months for another GA review! -PocklingtonDan (talk) 18:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC)