# Talk:Barter

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WikiProject Economics (Rated Start-class, Low-importance)
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WikiProject Numismatics
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Numismatics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Numismatism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 To-do list for Barter: define the different meanings of the word define a new summary ethymology of barter (difficult question!) find statistics on the importance of barter in the worldwide economy describe economic activities related to barter develope the history of barter relations between money and barter

## State of article

This article is in a sorry state. The grammar and spelling are abysmal, the structure chaotic. The scientific level of the contributions is very low. The central theme seems to be that barter goes with selfless 'reciprocity', and back in the good old days when there was no money, there was no consideration for money relations - the circularity of the argument should be apparent to anyone. And then of course money came along and people stopped organizing their economy according to reciprocity and tradition, top-down command (hmmmmm I should have seen that one coming) and market democracy and became very selfish and calculative. But this argument confuses the organization of production with the medium of exchange. Tradition and top-down command are methods by which production is organized, not mediums of exchange - tradition and top-down command decide which set of productive methods and relations will be chosen out of a theoretically infinite number of alternatives, and this has nothing to do with barter. While it is true that in theory a total and complete 'top-down command' will have no need for money, it won't have any need for barter either. All economic transcations will be decided by those on top, so there will be no need to exchange anything. Ironically, not even the existent top-down command economies (or rather formerly existent) managed to rid themselves of money, no matter how hard they tried. Shortly after taking power, during the brief period of 'war communism' Lenin tried among other things to ban money and impose barter, with the result that the economy collapsed and people starved. The experiment was soon abandoned in favor of more realistic policies and money was reintroduced.

Be that as it may, I was surprised to see that the editors of this article failed to mention even a single disadvantage of barter as compared to money, so as at least to pay some lip service to objectivity. Even that was too much of a concession for you? Jean-Baptiste Danzig. Also bartering is great! [$http://www.example.com link title$<ref>Insert non-formatted text here</ref>]

After numismatic fetishism, we now hear about anti-communism. If it is impossible to write about such a pragmatic matter - barter - without ideological background, it's a pity. You should have a look to the french wikipedia, at the word troc.

Olivierchaussavoine (talk) 18:35, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

## proposed summary

definition and homonyms

etymology

history

• before money
• international barter such as triangular trade
• money crisis

forms of barter

• barter between states
• corporate barter
• local barter

statistics

formal barter models

## Relations between money and barter

If you consider these quotes:

Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal- that there is no human relation between master and slave - Leon N. Tolstoy

Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws - Mayer Amshchel Rothschild

You can figure out why most economic experts are not seriously interested by this matter, and also why contributions are accepted only if they describe barter as the outdated ancestor of money or if the subject discussed is, from an economic quantitative point of view, inexistant.

The money power preys on the nation in time of peace, and conspires againts it in time of adversity. It is more despotic than monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It denouces, as pubic enemies, all who question it's methods or throw light upon it's crimes. Abraham Lincoln

This article is now a no man's land of economy. It's quality will grow only if contributions are understood and really discussed before being deleted, or it will remain as it is now.

The quality does not grow, the definition says for example that barter does not use any medium. But any measurable commodity can be one! We should say it does not use any monetary medium. (Olivierchaussavoine 20:54, 3 December 2007 (UTC))

Barter is NOT an ancestor, outdated or otherwise, of money.

Olivierchaussavoine said: the definition says for example that barter does not use any medium. But any measurable commodity can be one! We should say it does not use any monetary medium'

WTF!? You obviously have no idea what is meant by "medium of exchange". I'll help. It is that which facilitates the exchange of one commodity for another. In Barter (Commodity for a Commodity (C-C)) transactions commodities are exchanged directly without any interceding medium to facilitate the exchange as opposed to monetary transactions (C-M-C) in which money facilitates the exchange of commodities. 24.36.14.161 (talk) 22:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

## No evidence for barter societies?

There seems to be a single source for this, namely claims made by Graeber in his Debt. This is a bit shoddy, given that there is ample evidence of barter-based societies. Even the famous source of the whole gift economy idea, Marcel Mauss mentions that a gift was usually given with some kind of reciprocity in mind.

I would prefer more credible and more objective sources than merely Graeber on topics that do not concern only anthropology. Graeber's viewpoint seems to rest on an imagined fact that there's no known observed instance of currencies taking shape. There are countless cases of currencies taking shape, surely some of which should be known to an anthropologist. To name a few: Cowry shells, cattle and manillas were all used as currency and co-existed with bartering. Likewise, when the Roman empire founded its currencies, the currency co-existed with bartering far and wide - as far as India according to some sources. ZombiePriest (talk) 18:23, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

## Inclusion of barter in numismatics

Question: Does someone understands why barter is a part of the wikiproject numismatics since barter does not use any money? Olivierchaussavoine 10:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This question has been submitted to the wikiproject numismatics, and we are waiting for a clear response.
This question was raised at Portal talk:Numismatics. Try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics for the whole project and a larger reply. Joe I 09:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
A clearer link is [Question] ; perhaps useful for readers to understand the large response.

Since the main subject is barter and not numismatics, I will personnaly continue the discussion on the discussion page of the barter article.

Olivierchaussavoine 07:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

## Proposed merge from Swapping (barter)

While I'm not the one first proposed the merge of Swapping (barter) into this article (though I did add the {{mergefrom}} to this; the {{mergeto}} was not mine), but fully support it, as the swapping article doesn't really add anything that isn't already in this one. —LrdChaos 02:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I wary of merging in an article that started out as a link farm. It has potential, though, so I added a link to it. --DryaUnda 23:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I also wary a little bit for the same reason, but since swapping does not use any monetary system and is a trade, swapping is welcome. The en.wiktionary already considers the two words are synonyms.

--Olivierchaussavoine 07:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

## History

Resolved

Can we not have a section about the history of barter? ~~T Servaia~~ 8.25pm 4th April 2006

There is a sall one now, to be improved. -- Olivierchaussavoine 07:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

## IRS and bartering

Resolved

Bartering, as I understand it, has tax repercussions. It might be profitable to add something about that. 69.6.162.160 23:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)Brian Pearson

Yes, bartering does have tax consequences. As the owner of a barter exchange, I must issue 1099B forms to my membership each year. What many businesses don't realize is that taxes are also due when companies barter one-to-one my service for your product. Each product or service has a value and that value for the product you "sold" through barter must be considered in taxes.

Swapping isn't really barter, and then again it is the original barter. Swapping is trading this for that. But swapping (in my opinion) has come to mean this old thing I don't need for that old thing you don't need. Barter is more a business deal where you exchange another item (usually new and something you manufacture or sell) for another item or service.

Barter Groups, such as mine, throw a wrench in because we don't exchange one to one but rather se a point system.

Catherine Cohen Valley Barter Group www.valleybartergroup.com

I have created Free2Xchange.com and in terms of taxes we do not allow our members to make any form of application to the tax man. The reason why we set up our exchange system is because modern day money system need to change, the tax systems need to change, and the global energy systems need to change. Usury and money systems do not work and ultimately result in our communities energy exiting the community through debt mechanics employed by banking organisations. We will be merging with a global exchange system in the next 6 months and our policy will be taken forward and replicated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.5.123.50 (talk) 15:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I cleaned up the external links section. More than half of it was commercial sites trying to promote themselves, which is frowned upon according to Wikipedia standards. I left groups of exchanges like NATE and BANC and so on, though, since they don't really represent anyone in particular. -- Andrer9999 00:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

How did you made the filter? I do not consider the link I gave was of that sort, so I added it again. I propose you to sort information instead of removing it. They are organisations (most of them try to promote themselves), sofware, nets of organisations, etc. The link was erased again by someone I did not found any way to speak with. I will not fight for this. -- Olivierchaussavoine 22:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to know why the editors who cleaned the "Self-Promotion links" consider The World Trade Banc which is one of the largest privately held exchanges, or Barter Center International aka BCI software which is used by over 500 trade exchanges self promotional links? Why then is DoBarter allowed a link over BCI? I'd suggest the editors may have special interest themselves and what annoys me the most is the fact that The International Barter Alliance and DoBarter are the same software sites! I don't have anything against the DoBarter software as I represent a member exchange, but I also use about every other available barter software in the industry and belong to no less than 4 barter networks... I'm disappointed enough with the bias demonstrated in this publications description of barter knowledge, it's worthy of a formal complaint! I also made it a lot easier to find me to discuss any of my editing actions and find the topic of unbiased editing worthy of fighting for... -- Joerinehart 04:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it is important to place the most popular commercial Barter Systems as External links in this section. It is frowned upon in Wikipedia, when people abuse the system. Why was there a foreign (non-English) site linked here? That is wrong, that belongs some where else. I placed ITEX about a week ago, and it was erased, instead I saw another. I think people want to know who the main Barter Network and the largest companies are. This goes to the credibility of the bartering systems. I also erased the U-Exchange link to How to Barter, as it was not referring to the article but to a bunch of Barter items. If they link to the article, I am fine with them leaving their article. There is nothing wrong with commercial information, we just have to watch abuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.88.192.173 (talk) 22:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

## Barter Economy

Shouldn't there be some page specifically for a BARTER ECONOMY? --herbivore 17:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Probably. Pretty much everything on this page is about a barter economy, not actual barter as most people think of it. -- Andrer9999 22:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I am very surprised that you think of barter outside economy, and interested to know what most people think of it. I consider myself that money and barter are both different means to make the balance of economic exchanges. We should make this clear on the article and ask for the integration of barter in economic topics. It is not for the moment. -- Olivierchaussavoine 22:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The article let think that barter is for poor economic actors who have not access to money, and let feel that barter is economically inexistant. The reality of barter is very different since big organizations are using it since the beginning of mankind. I suggest that we move subjects as simple living in a special chapter we could call "uses of barter>when money lacks", and that we give to the word barter it's real meaning. -- Olivierchaussavoine 07:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

## Barter quantitative model

This model makes barter practice easier for exchange of stocks measurable as quantities of quality standards. It allows the settlement of an electronic market place where each participant can find the best economic opportunity.

Using this model, a participant can search for the best association with one or more partners that would produce the lowest rate between the quantity he provides and the quantity he receives.

It does not use any monetary system, as required by the definition of barter.

### Definitions

When exchanged goods are measurable by quantities of standard values, barter agreements can be modelized using the following definitions:

A barter commitment is a unilateral statement of one economic actor to provide a quantity of a standard good he owns in exchange of an other quantity of an other standard good he is looking for.

The price is the ratio between provided and delivered quantities.

### Search for the best barter agreement

A barter agreement is a list of barter commitments where partners form a loop exchange that can be modelized as a loop on a directed graph.

Using the new definition of price, the equality of price of the buyer and of the seller has no meaning since the units are not the same, but the product of prices has one:

A barter agreement is possible when product of prices of partners equals to 1.

This statement remains true if we consider barter between more than two partners.

One can view the set of barter commitments as vertices. An edge exists between two commitments when the good proposed by one is the same as the good provided by the other. The definition of price is used to give a weight to each vertex and paths on this graph by the following:

The weight of a path is the product of the weight of it's vertices, and the weight of a vertex is the price of the barter commitment.

Find the best barter opportunity consists in searching for the possible loop that would give the lowest price ( it is created by looping the path having the highest price, since product of prices on a loop must be 1.).

An economic actor looking for a possible commitment proposing a stock he owns and asking for an other, can find the best economic opportunity for him, and define the best list of commitment, and set of partners for it's trade.

Those who are not choosen for the trade and want to barter are naturally incited to propose lower prices.

This model creates a market mecanism without using any monetary system but only quantities of exchanged stocks.

It's also a model without any relation to the real world. 24.36.14.161 (talk) 20:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

### Minimum quantity for a given price

A price is usually conditioned to a minimum quantity sold.

A more advanced model can be defined that finds the best associations between commitments where this other constraint is added, using this new definition:

A barter commitment is a unilateral statement of one economic actor to provide such quantity of such standard good he owns in exchange of an other quantity of an other standard good, for a minimum quantity provided.

### Implementation

The core searching algorithm are developed and rigourously tested, based on graph theory, and inspired of broadly used algorithms in routers of the world wide web.

A software project openbarter aims at providing online the proof of this statement. It's author is searching for an economic partner that would accept to help him to industrialize this model.

Olivierchaussavoine 10:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

## Miscellaneous

Is there any interest in a discussion on the different financial models used by third party barter companies and how they set up their trading environments? --Itch 02:11, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

This subject could be developed in the chapter barter and money. I am very interested to learn about it-- Olivierchaussavoine 09:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

## Local currencies

Since barter is a trade that do not use any monetary system, links to local currencies is out of the scope of the subject of barter.

Olivierchaussavoine 07:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)