Talk:Cherokee society/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

This article was nominated for deletion on 26 January 2006. The result of the discussion was keep/withdrawn. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Discussion Page Two

Well, we'll be discussing this topic via a new talkpage. --Bumpusmills1 08:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

This Page is Bunk

See Cherokee Clans. There's no proof of the authenticity of this author and the content directly contradicts actual information from actual Cherokee writers. Gadugi article is verifiable as written by a Cherokee endorsed by the head of the Cherokee Cultural Department of the Cherokee Nation Talk:Cherokee. Gadugi article Cherokee Clans states that "Mother Earth" was not a Cherokee concept or belief, but is from the Lakota Culture. This author has assembledinaccurate content from several sources on the internet and has blended Cherokee culture and other cultures into some sort of hodge poge. Article fails WP:V 67.177.11.129 04:40, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The pages main editor, the departed Bumpusmills1 (talk · contribs), was very defensive about his article and refused outside help. It is entirely possible that this article should all be merged into Cherokee Clans. Most of it is completely unverifiable and also verifiably false. — Scm83x ^talk 05:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

This article is plagurized and a mixture of Cherokee, Lakota, Assinibone, and Athabascan beliefs. It's characterstic of "new age" white indians who know absolutely nothing about the culture. None of it should ne merged into Cherokee Clans, an article written by a verified Cherokee Nation member. Based on comments on Talk:Cherokee, the Cherokee Nation Cultural Department endorsed the Cherokee Clans article and the author. This page should be Afd and dumped. 67.177.11.129 05:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I would not take anything to heart about this user... his name is Jeff Merkey and he has a permenant ban from Wikipedia. Each time, he has a cow on articles and then we ask... what part of the article is bunk or wrong? He never answers just keeps reverting and losing his temper. --Kebron 21:07, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Although what you say may be true, he's not the only one who has called the contents of this article bunk (before it was recently edited for accuracy). The prior author of this page had questionable knowledge of the subject to say the least. --BWD 21:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Understood... however I just wanted to point out the amount of credibility that you can attribute to the user with the IP 67.177.11.129 is practically null. --Kebron 12:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Could you please refer us to the page that implicates him as having a permanent block? What were his previous actions that lead to this? How do you know this IP is him? — Scm83x ^talk 12:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure... the Jeff Merkey history and talk page... and a DNS search of the IP address. Merkey History

Specifically, Gadugi (talk · contribs) is under the permanent block. Other IDs Mr. Merkey has used while under block, as confirmed by himself: 67.137.28.187 (talk · contribs), 67.137.28.189 (talk · contribs), 67.177.35.211 (talk · contribs) and 67.177.35.222 (talk · contribs) among others. You can see a summation of his behavior in his own words at http://merkeylaw.com/old. -- MediaMangler 22:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting fellow. However, he's correct in his assessment of this article (before the heavy editing). --BWD 22:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Note that Mr. Merkey has given his Cherokee name as Waya Ge-tlv-hv-s-di, the Wolf that Howls. It is very possible that the wolf howled until it turned blue, so I'm a little suspicious of the identity of Waya sahoni (talk · contribs), the Blue Wolf, who has done such heavy editing of this article. I hasten to add that the identity of that user is immaterial so long as useful contributions are being made. -- MediaMangler 23:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, a member of the Wolf Clan. This phrase broken down is: Wa-ya (wolf). Ge (1st person),tlv-hv (make a sound like a wolf), s-di (do it now and sustain it indefinitely). It translates, "I will make a sound like a wolf and sustain it indefinitely". This phrase is not a proper name, otherwise it would contain -yi (the place of or where you find it or he who stands in the place of the "howling wolf"). If it was used as part of signature block in conjunction with an English name, it's a proper usage, but it indicates an an descriptive action of the person (Like "I'll shout it from the Mountain Top). I doubt it's their proper name. I reviewed this article, Jeffrey_Vernon_Merkey and it appears to also be some sort of troublesome article, and it's one I don't care to get involved with, as it is not related to information about Cherokee culture. It seems to be about Mr. Merkey. I do have one comment, I find this article distastefully written, vulgar, and potentially racist. It's also confusing and difficult to understand. The article seems to be about someone named Alan Cox and Linux and their various beefs with Mr. Merkey, and some related lawsuits. I don't find that interesting or useful to Cherokee Culture. The article also opens with listings of Mr. Merkey's race and ancestry, then immediately characterizes him as a liar, a thief, untrustworthy, and other vauge allegations which are clearly some attempt to smear him, and based on the way the article is written is stereotyping him based on his race. I think the article could be more balanced with less virtiol. I also know who Mr. Merkey is and he is highly respected by the Cherokee Nation, and I can tell you a lot of this internet content about him has painted him as a martyr and hero of the Cherokees. It's has the opposite affect from what people may believe because it is perceived he is being attacked over his attempts to help the Cherokee people. I don't want to be involved in Mr. Merkey's disputes, so please leave me out of them. I am here to write articles about the Cherokee Culture and add to Wikipedia in the areas of Cherokee Culture and Native American Filmmaking. Wa-do. Waya sahoni 02:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Mr. Merkey's command of the Cherokee language is inferior to your own. Several artcles in the Deseretnews (1, 2 and 3) have quoted him under the name Waya Ge-tlv-hv-s-di, so he appears to believe that phrase constitues his proper name. All references to Mr. Merkey's race and ancestry in his entry were added by Mr. Merkey himself, so I fail to see how any racism can be read into the article unless you believe such racism was introduced by Mr. Merkey himself. Personally, I don't see any justification for denying Mr. Merkey the right to claim Cherokee heritage, if he desires to do so. -- MediaMangler 06:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting articles, but I don't see Mr. Merkey mentioned in them anywhere. I do see the usage of this phrase and it again appears to be misspelled, apparently by the writers of the articles. I don't see the parallel you are drawing here. Again, I am not getting into the Merkey dispute, so please leave me out of it. The rapid and vicious pursuit of me on this site would tend to substanciate that you see Mr. Merkey behind every tree and have some sort of complex about him. This conduct on your part and that of the other user makes me feel the attacks in this article are racially motivated, why else would you harras me also? I will not be responding to either of you, and I would appreciate not junking up pages I edit with allegations and personal attacks. Thanks. Waya sahoni 15:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I didn't bother to mention that Mr. Merkey has used the phrase in his email signature block (example), since you seemed to already know that fact without being told. Mr. Merkey has stated that he is an elder of the Utah Native American Church. I don't think it takes much deductive ability to conclude that it is highly unlikely that two elders of the Utah Native American Church exist, both of whom refer to themselves using the same misspelled Cherokee phrase. Since you are so certain that the phrase is misspelled, I will correct Mr. Merkey's entry to reflect that fact. Please note that I am not pursuing you in any way nor have I said anything vicious about you. I really don't care about your identity so long as you make useful contributions to Wikipedia. I have merely been responding to your comments. -- MediaMangler 17:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Could someone with Admin privilege check the IP address of user? Waya sahoni Dollars to donuts it will match Jeff Merkey's IP address, a user who has a permenant ban on Wikipedia. -- unsigned note from Kebron (talk · contribs)

Is that really appropriate? Wikipedia policies are not intended to punish past misbehavior, only prevent continuing abuse. Even if Waya sahoni actually is Merkey, he seems to be using the account to contribute in a positive manner, so why should he be discouraged from continuing? -- MediaMangler 19:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Reverted Back

It seems the information of this bmills person came from those two books referenced at the bottom of the page. I've read those books and the authors are legitmate. So I reverted it back simply because this information was used and cited from those texts. --4.152.96.220 02:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Additionally

Additionally, since the information was taken from two legitmate authors writings then how can it be "bunk"? --4.152.96.220 02:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that the above IP is most likely Bumpusmills, since he was using the same IP that resolves to an Atlanta Level3 IP block to vandalize other pages yesterday. He was ultimately blocked by Improv. --BWD 03:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

It should also be noted that User:BWD doesn't like anyone who doesn't agree with him. --4.152.96.220 03:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. Thanks. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 03:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Note I'm just stating a fact. --4.152.96.220 03:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Please just read the books. Don't go by what this waya sahoni character says. The only real way of knowing is too read the books listed. --4.152.96.220 03:38, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Legitmate Native American Authors

The information was taken for the references listed at the bottom of the page. The authors are both well known Native American authors. So the info in the article was legitmate. --4.152.96.220 03:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Until you read both those books from cover to cover then I'd suggest leaving it the way this bmills fellow had it. It is NPOV. What else can one asks for? --4.152.96.220 03:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Waya Sahoni

Can any of you 100% prove that waya sahoni knows his stuff? Has he written books on the subject? The authors of those books listed are both well known Native American authors. --4.152.96.220 03:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I've been around many Native Americans. I was even a student of a fellow who claimed to be a holy man. Come to find out he was no such thing. So until this waya sahoni proves himself I'd be very careful of believing him. --4.152.96.220 03:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Trust

When a person puts their trust in someone who claims to be something and then one finds that this person isn't at all what they claimed it damages trust. Until waya sahoni gains my trust and respect, which is the Native American way, then I'll go by the authors of those two books. --4.152.96.220 03:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, that's it. What exactly is the "Native American Way"? Traditional Cherokee Society and beliefs have nothing to do with modern inter-tribal new age white hippie views or beliefs. Waya sahoni 20:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I will go a step further with this. My own sister bought me a copy of both those books. She has been to North Carolina doing our family tree for years. She knows the author of The Full Cherokee Circle personally. I'll definitely believe my own sister. --4.152.96.220 03:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I lived and grew up in the Cherokee culture, I don't need to read books written by non-Cherokee fiction writers which are not authoritative references on our culture -- I know our culture and practice it every day. Translate the following: Da-do-na-da Go-hv-i, Sqo-la U-ne-ga Ah-wa-hi-li, U-ka-s-ha-na, ka-ne:i-s-di Go-we-la-i, wa-ya ah-he-na ah-ha-ni. I have chosen phrases you won't be able to locate on internet Cherokee/Translators -- you have to know the language. If you can translate them, I'll engage and discuss this with you. If you cannot, please don't put yourself forward as an authority on our culture ad spread misinformation about us. Thanks. Waya sahoni 20:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Unlike "YOU" I have never claimed to be an authority. I have extreme challenges with those like yourself. I probably have a much American Indian blood in me as you do, because I'm at least half collectively. I wasn't reared in the Native American traditions and now I'm trying to learn from others in person and from "recommmended books" by other Native Americans. You should be trying to teach me if you know so much, and not on this wikipedia either, so that I'll have the correct information. I've been burned by one so-called American Indian Holy Man, who I found out later through a letter from the tribal leadership that he is so such thing. So I'm naturally being very cautious. Since I don't know you personally then I'm naturally going to have doubts. It is not personal. --4.152.180.69 13:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Language Class for Bumpusmills

Bumpus, you get an "F". Here's the answers. Lesson two will begin shortly.

Da-do-na-da Go-hv-i

(I'll see all of you later) Da- is a group designator. It means you are speaking to a group. Without the Da- the phrase is "I'll see you later".

Sqo-la U-ne-ga Ah-wa-hi-li

(The eagle still flies) - This is the modern form for the word "Prophet" -- the eagle sees far into the past and far into the future.

U-ka-s-ha-na

(Asshole, mean person, despicable person)

ka-ne:i-s-di Go-we-la-i

(He is speaking words from the lesson) Ka-ne: (He) i-s-di (is speaking) Go-we-la-i (the syllabary lesson)

wa-ya(wolf or dog) ah-he-na(come) ah-ha-ni(here).

"Come here you old Wolf-dog"

Waya sahoni 03:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems the anonymous editor desires to truly learn his/her heritage. Why not offer to assist this editor instead of critizing his/her efforts? It seems he/she is merely screaming; "I want to learn, please teach me"! But it also seems that nobody is willing to do that. Of course this is just an observation from the outside looking in. --Bookofsecrets 03:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Are you really saying he was asking to be taught by repeatedly shouting that he was the only one qualified to write about the subject? A student is not likely to learn much by repeatedly insulting those from whom he wishes to learn. -- MediaMangler 04:51, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

"This editor", also known as Bumpusmills1 (talk · contribs), WECoyote (talk · contribs) and various IP proxies, was given ample chance to learn the ropes back in December and January when he joined. However, his standoffish editing style and trouble with WP:OWN lead him to conflict, despite the efforts of admin Alabamaboy (talk · contribs) to calm him down. He left his usual user name, Bumpusmills1, to become "a VANDAL". I see no reason to give credence to those who evade blocks, violate 3RR regularly, and have wholly committed themselves to vandalizing articles. — Scm83x ^talk 04:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, you beat me to it. This user is yet another sock puppet of User:4.152.96.220/User:4.152.156.212/User:Bumpusmills1/User:WECoyote. He keeps coming back and ends up stirring up the same mess. This is the second or third ban evasion. --BWD 05:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Scm83x, BWD, & Rebelguys2. I suggest you all get a life and mind your own business for a change of pace. --Bookofsecrets 12:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I know this will fall on deaf ears, but please refrain from personal attacks. These type of personal attacks are a consistent problem with you and is probably the reason you have such a hard time getting along with other wikipedians. --BWD 14:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I did not attack anyone. I suggested that "you" mind your own business. Believe me when I say that if I attacked "you" there would be no doubt in the minds of anyone.--Bookofsecrets 00:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

That goes beyond a personal attack and directly to a threat. All of my contact information is public if you wish to speak with me. Check my user page. Further, I live in Georgia. Perhaps we can meet and discuss this over coffee if you prefer. I don't hide behind anonymous accounts. --BWD 00:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

You guys don't know the difference between attacks, threats, and facts. My statement prior to this one was facts plain and simple. No I don't want to meet you for coffee. Why? I don't trust you. I'm getting to where I trust very few people in our society. Why? Guys like you aren't helping matters that is for sure. I am Bumpusmills1 and I am from Tennessee. So does that look like I'm hiding? --Bookofsecrets 00:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Not trying to cause trouble

I am not trying to cause trouble here. Folks, if you are as intelligent as you seem to claim, you'll go read those two books. Until then none of you have a leg to stand on. You'll just be going by what this waya sahoni tells you. How do I know he's who he claims too be? I don't. And neither do you. Use your thinking organ and read the books. Then make your educated assessment. --4.152.96.220 03:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Can't Read

I've come to the conclusion that nobody here learned how to read in school. Or you're afraid to get the books and read them because you're afraid I'm correct. --4.152.96.220 04:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

For the 8th time: people here only want you to comply with Wikipedia policy. You need to give justification for edits like the prior author did. Reverting with "read the books" as the edit summary is not justification! Please stop erasing someone else's hard work. Thanks. --BWD 04:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Until you r-e-a-d the books you d-o n-o-t know that waya sahoni is telling the truth. This is the only justification you'll likely get. --4.152.96.220 04:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The truth is more powerful that wikipedia policy. Understand that some policies are meant to be broken. --4.152.96.220 04:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Acting Terrible, Why?

See! You have to dabble in everything or nearly everything I place on wikipedia. And you wonder why I'm acting terrible? --Bookofsecrets 01:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Was?

Was there any harm in adding an article about Cherokee Society to promote and share my heritage? Was there any harm in using the works of the two authors and citing it at the bottom of the article? I don't see any harm in any of that, but obviously you people do. --Bookofsecrets 01:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Except you don't know anything about your heritage if you truly are Cherokee. Based on your explosive temper, impatience, and hostile attitudes, I'm inclined to believe you are of our blood, as you do act like a pissed off Cherokee and I would guess you are Ah-ni Gi-lo-hi by descent. Give it a rest. The cure for stupidity is silence (an old Cherokee saying). Sit back and learn, I am here to reach and teach our people. Hv-wv Waya sahoni 03:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Waya_sahoni I saw your comments and came back long enough to say Wa-do. --Bookofsecrets 02:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)Bookofsecrets

I have to say "to" (pronounced "toe") (this is your welcome in Cherokee). Waya sahoni 06:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Detecting Silence

Am I detecting silence? --Bookofsecrets 01:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)