Talk:Jazz guitarist

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Criteria for inclusion[edit]

As OnBeyondZebrax mentioned in a message, we should establish criteria for the inclusion of specific guitarists on this page to make sure that the "pillars" of jazz guitar are mentioned and inconsequential guitarists are not. There are several criteria that could be considered, and probably some parameters I haven't thought of:

1. Having an important place in jazz guitar history. (e.g., Eddie Lang, Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian, Charlie Byrd, etc.).

2. Significantly advancing the role of the guitar in jazz. Would Sonny Sharrock fit in here for his role in the guitar in free jazz? How about Jimmy Bruno for developing his online jazz guitar institute? Certainly George Van Eps and Lenny Breau.

3. Outstanding musicianship (e.g., Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Pat Martino).

4. Significant market success, e.g. record sales and/or recognition, as a leader (Johnny Smith, George Benson, Pat Metheny) and as a side man (George Barnes perhaps, Freddie Green, Oscar Moore, etc.).

5. Critical acclaim (e.g., downbeat poll winners, etc.)

6. Involvement in significant recordings

Any thoughts about criteria for inclusion?

Cunamara (talk) 02:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I would modify your list just by sprinkling it with the requirement for the assessments to be made by established, reputable critics/jazz historians/music journalists, rather than by the opinion of the anonymous editor. Thus:

1. Having an important place in jazz guitar history. (e.g., Eddie Lang, Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian, Charlie Byrd, etc.), according to statements by established, reputable critics/jazz historians/music journalists.

2. Significantly advancing the role of the guitar in jazz, according to statements by established, reputable critics/jazz historians/music journalists.. Would Sonny Sharrock fit in here for his role in the guitar in free jazz? How about Jimmy Bruno for developing his online jazz guitar institute? Certainly George Van Eps and Lenny Breau.

3. Outstanding musicianship according to statements by established, reputable critics/jazz historians/music journalists. (e.g., Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Pat Martino).

4. Significant market success, e.g. record sales and/or recognition (according to statements by established, reputable critics/jazz historians/music journalists), as a leader (Johnny Smith, George Benson, Pat Metheny) and as a sideman (George Barnes perhaps, Freddie Green, Oscar Moore, etc.).

5. Critical acclaim in major national or international magazines and awards(e.g., Downbeat poll winners, etc.)

6. Involvement in significant recordings, which are deemed to be significant according to statements by established, reputable critics/jazz historians/music journalists.

Any thoughts about criteria for inclusion?

Hi, I just removed Wayne Wesley Johnson, on the grounds that he isn't in the same league as Mike Stern, John Scofield, etc. Most of the info on WWJ is self-produced (website, promotional ads, e-music), rather than encyclopedia articles, Downbeat articles.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 13:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Regarding your question about whether to include "about Jimmy Bruno for developing his online jazz guitar institute? As editors, you and I cannot claim that Bruno is notable because he developed an online teaching system, just based on our opinion of Bruno (this would be Original Research). A reputable source has to make this claim. Thus it would be notable if a source said that: "According to Downbeat jazz magazine editor Jane Doe, Jimmy Bruno developed the "most important and influential online jazz guitar institute of the 2000s", in terms of the "innovativeness of its teaching system and the success of its methods."<ref Downbeat Jan 20, 2004. <ref etc .................Note...This is just a made-up, hypothetical quote!  :) ..............OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 13:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Merging with the "jazz guitar" page[edit]

Re: merging with the jazz guitar page. This page is a discussion of the personalities that played or play jazz guitar, trying to create some sense of the chronology and the progressive influences over the history of the instrument. This seems to me to be distinct from a discussion of the guitar as an instrument used in jazz (e.g., the physical design of the instrument, playing methods, etc.) and that introducing this material into the jazz guitar page would make that page cumbersome. I would think that appropriate linkages would maintain both the unique editorial flow of each page as well as supporting the parallel material.Cunamara (talk) 02:41, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree - They should be kept separate -- Two points: 1) This article should be moved to Jazz guitarists; 2) There are three articles: Jazz guitar, Jazz guitarist and List of jazz guitarists as well as Category:Jazz guitarists by genre. It seems like some of this information ought to be merged -- otherwise there is similar information on three different pages (plus a category) Editor437 (talk) 03:03, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Disagree with merging. I am the one who created some of the different articles. I argue that they should be separate because "Jazz guitar" is about the style of playing guitar used in jazz (rootless voicings, comping rhythms, etc) and, to a lesser degreee, about the instrument (hollow body archtop guitars) often used for jazz. The jazz guitarists article is an overview of the history of the most influential players of the instrument. Of the 1000s of jazz guitarists that have contributed to the style, it hand-picks the most prominent and most notable guitarists, and tries to briefly explain their contribution to the style. .......................The List of jazz guitarists is the opposite. It is a list article that contains a large number of jazz guitarists, without any contextual information, or ranking criteria. On the list article, one of the most influential jazz guitarists in the history of jazz (e.g., Wes Montgomery) may sit side-by-side with local or regional players who have achieved enough to meet Wikipedia's Notability criteria (e.g., a few CDs, a few reviews in local papers), but who have not been deemed to be an important part of JAZZ history by major encyclopedias or music critics.........As the list article grows, it will eventually contain 1000s of names, ranging from the most influential players in the history of jazz (Montgomery, Jim Hall, etc) to local/regional players and emerging young guitarists. As such, while the list article will be useful for a reader that already knows a bit about jazz guitar, and who is trying to find a certain performer ("What is the name of that jazz guitarist whose last name starts like "Meth..." or "Metheny"?). However, since the list article has so many names, without ranking or ordering (other than alphabetical), the list article is not helpful for a reader who knows nothing about the history of jazz guitarists. OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 13:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)