Talk:Larry Schultz

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Larry Schultz as creator of Power Yoga[edit]

The refrence being cited for Larry Schultz as creator of Power Yoga is a Yoga Journal article titled "Asana TM", which can be accessed through the Internet archive http://replay.web.archive.org/20090312073757/http://www.yogajournal.com/lifestyle/1143 . In it is the following text (on page 5):

People respond differently to perceived threats to their intellectual property, depending again on their motives. "I don't see Pattabhi Jois running after [It's Yoga founder] Larry Schultz in San Francisco, saying, 'Why did you create Power Yoga?' I don't see Iyengar running after Rodney Yee saying, 'Why did you leave me?'" admits a highly placed Bikram instructor. "I don't know how to account for the difference in response--maybe because they're over in India."

The reference seems to be used as a joke, not as a serious attribution. This is the only time that Larry Schultz and Power Yoga appear together in a sentence. The referencing of the 1995 yoga journal article also seems to be trying tie Larry to Power Yoga. You can read the article here http://books.google.com/books?id=b-kDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=power+yoga+yoga+journal+1995&source=bl&ots=z2_uVLyM_Q&sig=H_IvAzEiRNz5sVvM0qSFm5ywhk4&hl=en&ei=GJa5TdamFsP20gGjnaHsDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=larry%20schultz&f=false . In is the only part that references Larry Schultz is:

And recently San Francisco Ashtanga teacher Larry Schultz went on tour with the Grateful Dead, to teach the demanding form to guitarist Bob Weir, drummers Mickey Hart and Bill Kreutzman, and bass player Phil Lesh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by user name or IP (talkcontribs)
Hello unknown wikipedian. I have added the correct link to the citation here. The quotation regarding Schultz creating power yoga comes from a December 2003 article in Yoga Journal, called AsanaTM. The subject of the article is Bikram's trademarking of his sequence. Here is the quote again from this page 156 of the issue (you might want to read the whole article which starts earlier in the issue to get the context):

http://books.google.com/books?id=4ekDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=asana+tm+yoga+journal&source=bl&ots=8mS3cdhww1&sig=3IBwLQiUFpvBlxk8sDWlxGQm3g8&hl=en&ei=sL3LTt6-PMOSiAeCg9jUDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The entire paragraph reads:

People respond differently to perceived threats to their intellectual property, depending again on their motives. "I don’t see Pattabhi Jois running after [It's Yoga founder] Larry Schultz in San Francisco, saying, 'Why did you create Power Yoga?' I don’t see Iyengar running after Rodney Yee saying 'Why did you leave me?'" admits a highly placed Bikram instructor. "I don't know how to account for the difference in response - maybe because they are over in India."

The subject of the entire article speaks about creators of types of yoga, their rights to copyright them, and the industry response to it. Clearly this article is crediting Schultz as the creator of Power Yoga. There is nothing to imply that this is a joke.

Last, please sign your comments in the future. Thank you! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 15:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The "accreditation" is given by an interviewee not the writer, and is never again discussed in the article. The intention of the article is not to give accreditation of the creator of power yoga.

These two articles seem to lean more towards Beryl Bender as more of the "creator (or coiner)" of power yoga.

http://books.google.com/books?id=b-kDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA4&pg=PA4#v=onepage&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=u-kDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA170&pg=PA170#v=onepage&q&f=false

In your defense of the creator title, this book does seem to reference Schultz as being one of the innovators of power yoga, while still deferring the original term to Bender.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tUgBIrn5REwC&lpg=PA176&pg=PA176#v=onepage&f=false

Power yoga now seems to refer more to a Baptise style of yoga, and has move away from being more of an ashtanga derivative.

Schultz never publicized his style of yoga as "power yoga" (a search of itsyoga.net on the internet archive way back machine would support this, but the site has been deleted from the archives). When power yoga is being used to refer to an Ashtanga practice, it is just a renaming of the traditional primary series to a term more widely recognized and attractive to westerners. In this sense, the ashtanga derived power yoga is not something that is created, rather renamed. A search of "Larry Schultz Power Yoga" does not return the same subject validity of sites as a search for "Beryl Bender Power Yoga" does. Schultz is better known and verifiable as the creator of Rocket Yoga.

dave (talk) 14:55, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

David Turner, Some great new sources. I read the 3 articles you posted. Wikipedia works on verifiable citations from notable publications. It would be quite helpful if you would put the quotation in this page for everyone to read, and debate more quickly. I reviewed the citations your suggested and have tried to put those in here for discussion.
The Yoga Journal article Yoga Journal, 1995, Page 4 "From the Editor: The real power of yoga" made no reference to any person as the creator of Power Yoga. Please explain, maybe I overlooked your reference. http://books.google.com/books?id=b-kDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA4&pg=PA4#v=onepage&f=false
The second citation Yoga Journal September 2003, Page 170, "Mixed Media: 'Power Yoga: The Practice, with Beryl Bender Birch'" says: Bender Birch said "She's said she first coined the phrase "Power Yoga." This article you are citing is a Yoga Journal review of a Beryl Birch DVD, in which Birch herself says she first coined the term "power yoga." Wikipedia has clear guidelines that state that a person making a statement about themselves is not a notable citation. http://books.google.com/books?id=u-kDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA170&pg=PA170#v=onepage&q&f=false
Your third citation, "Yoga body: the origins of modern posture practice" by Oleh Mark Singleton says on Page 176: "Birch, along with Larry Schultz (a long-term student of Pattabhi Jois), were two of the earlier innovators of the American power yoga craze." I think this citation seems to suggest that there were two creators of power yoga. Where does it cite on this page that Birch coined the name? http://books.google.com/books?id=tUgBIrn5REwC&lpg=PA176&pg=PA176#v=onepage&f=false
Your comment about itsyoga.net, and something about it not being in the archive. I am not sure what point you are trying to make there. Wikipedia is about verifiable sources, not websites with no archive. Generally Wikipedia would also look to publications (such as those in google books) before it would look to a corporate website. (This is similar to Birch saying in her video that she coined the term power yoga. It is easy for someone to say something about themselves, what we are looking for is notable statements by independent third parties.)
Maybe we can flesh out more details here, and then a Wikipedia editor, and/or other registered users can also voice their opinion on this matter. Do you have any additional citations to substantiate your position that Schultz is not known as a creator of power yoga? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:23, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
The first citation (http://books.google.com/books?id=b-kDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA4&pg=PA4#v=onepage&f=false) is not a very good one, it refers to beryl bender. A better reference for her is page 108 in the same magazine (http://books.google.com/books?id=b-kDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA4&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q=Bender&f=false).
"At first I was afraid to call it yoga, for fear the word was too loaded with preconceived notions of pretzel positions and foreign-sounding words, and no one, atleast not any runners, would come to class" In 1990 she started calling it power yoga.
A look at http://yoga.about.com/od/poweryoga/a/power.htm lacks mention of Schultz
The reference to the internet archives of itsyoga.net is in reference to past schedules of classes that Schultz taught. Nowhere in the schedules is a reference to power yoga, but the archives are no longer available, so there is no way to verify this.
In Schultz's obituary in the June 2011 issue of yoga journal, there is no reference to Schultz as the creator of power yoga. (this issue is not easily accessible online, a google search of yoga journal june 2011 returns a couple of sites where one can download the magazine (at ones own risk). One would think that if Yoga Journal credited Larry Schultz with "creating" power yoga, they would have referenced that in the obituary.
The term "created" for power yoga is a bit of a misnomer, careful reading of the profile of Beryl Bender in the 1995 issue of yoga journal referenced above reveals that the power yoga she was teaching was actually just ashtanga yoga. Her book, power yoga, is just a rehashing (or hashing, as it predates most other written material on ashtanga) presented in a manner to not scare off people with a bizarre sanskrit name such as ashtanga.
The only reference for Schultz as being the creator of power yoga is a quote by an unnamed source in an article about copyrights and yoga. This was not a claim being pursued or made by the author of the article. If Schultz is the acknowledged creator of power yoga, there should be many more references to this fact. I don't believe that the impetus is on the disproval of the claim, rather in the proof of the claim. Do you have any additional citations to substantiate your position that Schultz is known as a creator of power yoga?
David (talk) 05:23, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Generally again, you are making statements without documenting your claim which suggests you are attempting to obfuscate your claims. Wikipedia is a community about transparency and documentation. It is also clear to me that there is going to be no consensus, nor should there be, resulting from your and my discussion alone. We need the Wikipedia community's input here.
It does appear that there are clear citations listing both Beryl Bender Birch and Larry Schultz as the creators of Power Yoga, and that is how they are currently listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtanga_Vinyasa_Yoga#.22Power_Yoga.22 Note that some of your proposed citations for Beryl Bender Birch relates to a book written by Birch titled "Power Yoga." This discussion here is about Larry Schultz as the creator of Power Yoga, not about the title of Birch's book. That can be addressed on Birch's wikipedia page, at the time it is created. Maybe you would like to create that page, as you seem to be well versed in this person?? As Birch is the published author of multiple books, this should get her past Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons
Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:59, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
To make sure new visitors to this page understand the claim, you are asserting that the following text from yoga journal:
"I don't see Pattabhi Jois running after [It's Yoga founder] Larry Schultz in San Francisco, saying, 'Why did you create Power Yoga?'..." admits a highly placed Bikram instructor.
is documentation that
Schultz's new style of yoga was a modified Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga regime that is today the foundation for Power yoga. Yoga Journal magazine credits Schultz as the creator of Power Yoga.
David (talk) 19:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Also, in the spirit of transparency, I would like to state that I am currently under contract with It's Yoga to ship out materials for teacher trainings, help out with various tasks, and have in the past worked as the manager for the Folsom Street Studio. James, what is your affiliation with Larry Schultz/It's Yoga?
David (talk) 01:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

It's Yoga as 3rd Yoga studio in San Francisco[edit]

Baron Baptiste Parents opened the 1st yoga studio in the 1950s

http://www.yogajournal.com/lifestyle/638

The Iyengar Institute of San Francisco opened in 1972

http://integralyogasf.org/links.html

Also do a search for entity number C0767604 on http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/

Yoga Society of San Francisco registered also opened in 1972

http://www.yssf.com/ and entity number C0667079 on http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/

These are 3 yoga studios which predate the 1991 opening of It's YogaDavid (talk) 06:22, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

David, so is your point that It's Yoga was the 4th, not the 3rd? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:32, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Bikram North Beach claims to have opened in 1973. I somehow doubt that between 1972 and 1991 no yoga studios opened in San Francisco. Wikipedia is a community about transparency and documentation. Do you have documentation or other proof that It's Yoga was the 3rd/4th/5th yoga studio to open in San Francisco?David (talk) 17:55, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Third opinion response[edit]

Searchtool-80%.png Response to third opinion request:
Hello. I am in response of a request for a third opinion. I have read in detail the disagreement above as well as the cited sources. As per WP:UNDUE I don't think it's necessary to include every point about Larry Schultz including his supposed affilitation with Power Yoga. I think it's suffice enough on the page Power yoga to mention both Schultz and Birch. For that reason, there should be the removal of the quote Yoga Journal magazine credits Schultz as the creator of Power Yoga..—Whenaxis (talk) 21:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

.

Resolved: No response from editors - assuming acceptance of third opinion. For all further discussion please post on my talk page. Thanks. Whenaxis (talk) 01:44, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello, disagree with this interpretation. I was away for the holidays when it was resolved. I have added the "creator of power yoga" issue back to the page in a new heading called "legacy".

1. It is important to the wikipedia community that users understand what Schultz's legacy is, specifically as it relates to Wikipedia:Notability. Schultz is often cited as a creator of a whole genre of art (I am calling Yoga an art for lack of a better word), it is important that this be reflected on a bio page.

2. I believe that 3 notable citations is sufficient to establish verifiability.

3. Note that the editor Special:Contributions/Dturner in this discussion has admitted conflict of interest issues in this thread already (Dturner states he is an employee of It's Yoga), and appears to be a Wikipedia:Single-purpose_account. User Dturner may have motivations to credit Schultz's yoga to It's Yoga's copyrighted Rocket Yoga instead of the generally used term Power Yoga. User Dturner's comments should be evaluated in light of Dturner's admitted Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest as well as the fact that this appears to be a Wikipedia:Single-purpose_account, and therefore his comments towards deleting verifiable/cited content should be evaluated as a potential Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view conflict.

I await your feedback and again apologize for the protocol violation, if there is one.

Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 12:10, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with your motion. Dturner appears to have not made any recent edits and it appears that he did admit a conflict of interest above. As per the Wikipedia policies' breaches, I would have to change my opinion to allowing your edit to remain as power yoga. Happy new year, Whenaxis about talk contribs 14:31, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I believe that jtbobwaysf also has a conflict of interest, as he is the current maintainer of itsyoga.com and is also trying to expand its yoga franchises in asia. As such, I believe that jtbobwaysf is trying to use wikipedia for personal gain and profit. David (talk) 15:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
(as a side note, to prove that jtbobwaysf is James Treanor, you need to do a little detective work, looking at the articles he originally edited (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&target=Jtbobwaysf) you'll see that articles for It's Yoga and Larry Schultz were created and deleted due to the articles being too ad-like (I believe), but you'll also see an article for Sunrise Paper, a paper company that James started (http://www.google.com/search?q=james+treanor+sunrise+paper), which he admits to owning on a previous version of his user page (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Jtbobwaysf&oldid=30207889). You'll notice James appear again on the comments page of itsyoga.com (http://www.itsyoga.com/comments/) and as the first user created on the site. James very clearly also has a conflict of interest in this article which should be considered.)David (talk) 16:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the information. I've already received information on this in my talk page archives here. I'll dedicate my time to working with this. Whenaxis about | talk 01:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

1&2 jtbobwaysf states that Schultz is often cited as creator of power yoga. He lists 3 references in the article. They have been discussed above but I will reiterate them here again: The first reference is from the 1995 issue of Yoga Journal where nowhere do the words Larry Schultz and power yoga appear in the same sentence. I could have overlooked something in the article, so if I am correct please provide the page number where Larry Schultz is credited as creator of Power Yoga.

The second reference is to the article AsanaTM where an unnamed bikram instructor is quoted "I don't see Pattabhi Jois running after [It's Yoga founder] Larry Schultz in San Francisco, saying, 'Why did you create Power Yoga?'" (It is worth noting that jtbobwaysf first attributed this quote to David Life (a famous yoga teacher) - see edit http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Larry_Schultz&oldid=422140701 and then attributes the quote to Yoga Journal, when the quote is from an unnamed source)

The third reference is a book that refers to Schultz as an early innovator of the Power Yoga phenomenon in the US.

I do not believe that these three references would qualify as often citations.

3 I disclosed my conflict of interest because I wanted to be transparent. jtbobwaysf is using this disclosure as an attack on my credibility. jtbobwaysf did feel it necessary to disclose that he has worked in the past for Larry Schultz for internet marketing, and is currently the director of It's Yoga Limited a company set up to franchise the It's Yoga Brand in Asia. As stated above I believe that his comments and actions should be evaluated as a potential Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view conflict.Dturner (talk) 12:53, 19 January 2012 (UTC)