Talk:List of VFL/AFL players to have scored a goal with their first kick

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Ideas for revamping this page[edit]

  1. Update to include all documented cases. My 2019 copy of the AFL Record season guide lists 268 players, and even that figure is only accurate to the end of 2018. By my rough Ctrl+F estimates, this list currently contains only 169 players – meaning roughly 100, perhaps more, are missing.
  2. "First kick/first goal kickers" is a clunky and ambiguous phrase, sacrificing naturalness and precision for an all-out commitment to concision. "List of VFL/AFL players to have scored a goal with their first kick", although slightly longer, is a far more natural way to describe the feat, and complements the titles of similar articles such as List of VFL/AFL players to have played 300 games.
  3. To aid readers sorting by club and year, I'd include all players, including those who have scored multiple goals from multiple kicks, in a single table, and either add a new Goals/Kicks column or a number/symbol next to the player's name (akin to Coleman Medal) that denotes goals/kicks. There could perhaps also be a separate table as well just for multiple goal/kickers.
  4. I'm also not convinced that sorting by surname by default is really the best way... sorting by year seems to be more intuitive for readers (who are likely to be more interested in the earliest/latest examples of the feat than which players have surnames closest to A/Z) and for editors adding new players (just put them on the bottom instead of needing to worry about alphabetisation). This would also match an FL on a similar topic, List of Major League Baseball players with a home run in their first major league at bat.

Anyway, the reason why I've put these suggestions on the talk page instead of just implementing them immediately is because I'm aware there has been some past suggestion for the list to be deleted, and I'd rather not spend too much time putting these ideas into practice if the list is just going to be deleted soon afterwards. However, after searching around a bit, I was able to find some sources which, in my view, unambiguously show that the topic meets WP:LISTN, and would be able to support a lead large enough to avoid falling foul of WP:NOT#STATS:

  • General sources[1][2][3][4]
  • Sources for specific players (but also contain some general information)[5][6][7]

There are also a great many sources that specifically focus on one player's accomplishment of the feat, some of which are already cited in the article.

If there are no objections from other editors I will start developing these suggestions, but if there is agreement that these sources are sufficient to prove notability that would be helpful as well. – Teratix ₵ 09:44, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

References

  1. ^ Ryan, Peter (21 July 2020). "Snap Shot: First kick, first goal a Weightman tradition". The Age. Nine Entertainment. Retrieved 24 February 2021.
  2. ^ Smarrini, Gus (22 September 2011). "Footy Lists: First-kick heroes". The Advertiser. News Corp Australia. Retrieved 24 February 2021.
  3. ^ Ryan, Peter (9 May 2002). "Sporting Life". The Age. Fairfax Media. Retrieved 24 February 2021.
  4. ^ Paton, Al (6 November 2016). "Thirteen footballers who played possibly their best game on debut". The Australian. News Corp Australia. Retrieved 24 February 2021.
  5. ^ McMurtry, Andrew (27 July 2020). "Geelong Cats debutant Brad Close joins first kick first goal club against Fremantle Dockers". news.com.au. News Corp Australia. Retrieved 24 February 2021.
  6. ^ Greenberg, Tony (4 April 2016). "Short enters exclusive Tiger goal club". richmondfc.com.au. Telstra Media. Retrieved 24 February 2021.
  7. ^ "Cody's first game to remember". westernbulldogs.com.au. Telstra Media. 18 July 2020. Retrieved 24 February 2021.

Post-revamp notes[edit]

  • All the above suggestions have been implemented.
  • The number of entries rose by around 130, from about 169 to 296. The bulk of these additions were sourced from the AFL Record Season Guide 2019.
  • There were a number of well-known players surprisingly omitted from the original list, notably Gordon Coventry, Jason Dunstall, Tony Lockett and Brent Harvey.
  • Several players were present in the original list, but were not mentioned in the AFL Record's list (despite debuting before 2019). Six of these players (David Flood, Darryl Griffiths, Sam Jones, Tim O'Brien, Kayne Turner and Wayde Twomey) have been omitted from the revamped list, although their entry remains stored in a comment so they can be quickly restored if necessary. Two entries (Bob Crowe and Ryan Burton) have been retained because the original list cited appropriate sources, although the conflict will need to be addressed at some point.
  • Similarly to List of Major League Baseball players with a home run in their first major league at bat, the revamped list contains an indicator for Hall of Fame members, which seemed to be a good way of highlighting conspicuously notable players in a list of nearly 300.
  • I considered listing players' career goals, but decided it would not be worth the effort to continually update. – Teratix ₵ 05:50, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Added some new entries[edit]

Have just added the entries for Judson Clarke and Hewago Oea (who incidentally needs an article too). Are there any others over the course of the season that we may have missed?

Btw, love your revamp work on this page @Teratix. Is it worth noting somewhere in the article that detailed statistics were only kept from X year onwards, hence why there are so many late-era entries? Newcomers to the sport would surely be confused as to the notion that there were only two supposed performers of this feat in the first 25(!) seasons of the league. I feel like it should be made pretty prominent that these are known entries; this is an ever-expanding list, etc. Gibbsyspin 00:58, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Another update but I haven't made the change this time – the late Colin Sylvia should have a # next to his name for not having a kick in his first match (see AFL Tables). Is that enough of a primary source or do we need to wait for it to be updated in the Season Guide for it to make its way here? Credit for the discovery goes to this Demonwiki page. Gibbsyspin 01:05, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Both these suggestions seem reasonable. – Teratix ₵ 05:07, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More new entries[edit]

Hey team. Have just completed a fairly major addition with the help of the 2024 Season Guide book, adding all the cases we hadn't yet included from the book and crosschecking the ones on the page that weren't listed there.

This brings us up to 314 confirmed cases, up from 298 earlier today.

We currently have 3 confirmed and referenced cases that don't exist on the AFL master list:

There are a number of other cases – either initially hidden during the 2021 revamp or hidden just now by me – which have previously existed on this page but are not currently listed as they do not reference any sources and neither do they exist on the AFL master list. These 4 potential cases are as follows:

Other previously listed & hidden entries that have since been debunked include Wayde Twomey (2011, at least his second kick) and Kayne Turner (2014, second kick).

If we can find references for the four above then that would be wonderful, but they will otherwise remain hidden until we do so, or until the AFL includes them in their master list. Gibbsyspin 14:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Patrick Voss[edit]

Hey @Ronnievonjohnson , do you have a source for Patrick Voss scoring a goal with his first kick last weekend? The West Australian's article on Voss' goal mentions nothing of it being his first kick, nor does the television broadcast while he was lining up for his set shot (and it's normally something they love to do). Without a source, we won't be able to include the goal for now. Are you sure it was really his first kick? Has everyone just missed this? Thanks. Gibbsyspin 10:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Gibbsyspin, no I don't have a source unfortunately despite searching tirelessly. I am fairly sure it was his first kick but without any proof I agree it should be left of the list for now. thanks. Ronnievonjohnson (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just rewatched the game and I can confirm Voss's goal did not come from his first kick. He gets a kick into Fremantle's inside 50 with about ten minutes left in the first quarter. (Ironically, he did have a very good opportunity to goal with his first kick about two minutes into the game but choose to hand it off to Luke Jackson, who kicked the goal instead. The commentators even joke about membership in the "goal assist with first touch" club being transferable!) – Teratix ₵ 03:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks guys. I saw that clip too, with the handball, but I wasn’t about to watch the next 45 minutes of game time to find out otherwise. Given how hyper-aware commentators are of this ‘club’ these days, you would have thought it would have been mentioned it if was the case. Case closed! Gibbsyspin 03:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have an exact timestamp for that 1st quarter kick? I also just rewatched the first quarter, and didn't see any kicks by Voss. I did see 2 kicks into the 50 by Brayshaw (at about 15.5 and 3.5 minutes to go on the TV countdown timer), who has similar hair, same white boots and wears #8, not #38. The West Australian publishes quarter by quarter disposal counts (so combines kicks and handballs), and only listed 1 disposal in the first quarter for Voss (the handball to Jackson for the opening goal). In the AFL app there is a thing called The Telstra AR Tracker, that allows you to filter the entire game by player and action. It lists Voss with 5 kicks for the game, the contentious 2nd quarter goal being the first, before another later in the 2nd, 1 in the 3rd and 2 in the last. But how do I reference a dynamic selection in an app? This is definitely not case closed based on unverifiable WP:OR. The-Pope (talk) 04:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I just rewatched the relevant moment again to make doubly sure... and I got it wrong! It was a kick by Emmett (#18) to Voss (10:18 left on the countdown). There was a cut to a close-up of Voss which caught me out. Mea culpa. Looking at the rest of the game before Voss's goal, he didn't have any kicks – I think this is a genuine case. – Teratix ₵ 10:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for the definitive language used! As an aside, that Telstra AR thing has to be the biggest waste of resourcing in an app... I have never once thought to want to see a visual representation of a goal scored on my coffee table, and I get the feeling most others are the same. But I digress. You can actually filter individual stats by quarter in the AFL app without using the AR tracker. Voss' Q1 stats are 1 handball and 1 tackle; his Q2 stats are 2 kicks, 3 handballs, 2 marks and 1 goal. Can someone who watched the game confirm whether Voss' 'other' kick that quarter came before or after the goal? Regardless, I don't know how we'd be able to reference a filtered view in an app... it's not really a proper source as such. Gibbsyspin 11:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can always reference the footage of the game itself. – Teratix ₵ 12:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Watching the 2nd quarter, Voss' first kick for the goal was at the 10 min to go mark, the second kick (another shot, but it fell short) was with about 2:20 to go. The-Pope (talk) 16:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sweet. I've added Voss back to the article and have referenced the match replay with a note to when the event takes place. Let me know if any changes are required. Cheers. Gibbsyspin 14:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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