Talk:List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course/Archive 5

Corner-specific actionable suggestions

To identify and resolve issues specific to individual corners or other landmarks. Not a list of every corner, but only those where issues have been raised. Includes copy-pasting of criticism of individual corners' rows from elsewhere, in order to facilitate orderly resolution of all such complaints.

No question indicated here and no reply will appear. Editor repeatedly asked not to break-up sections as it is difficult to follow historically. --Agljones

The above comment was inserted by Agljones along with collapsing all the separate corner-specific items which follow. I have uncollapsed them to further resolution of each separate dispute. --doncram 16:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

And it's useful to cover notability summary issues about each item here (ok as full article vs. ok only as list-item vs. not even worthy of being a list-item).

Laurel Bank

Summary: not article-worthy; ok as a list-item

I noticed that Agljones elsewhere asserts error in the Laurel Bank row. The row was based on information in the Laurel Bank article, provided by Agljones.

Reviewing the Laurel Bank article, I see it has survived since 2008 with almost no content. It only includes:

• 1-a sourced (Manx: Cronk-y-Killey)) assertion that, whatever it is, Laurel Bank is termed "Cronk-y-Killey" in Manx.

• 2-an unsourced assertion there exists "series of bends" there, now disputed by its author. Editor Agljones made the "series of bends" assertion in his intial edit creating the article in 2008, but in 2015 he asserts it is not true.

• 3-identification of 54°13′03″N 04°57′37″W as its location.

Otherwise the article contains only boilerplate text with no info about Laurel Bank per se:

This series of bends at Laurel Bank was part of the Highland Course and Four Inch Course used for the Gordon Bennett Trial and Tourist Trophy automobile car races held in the Isle of Man between 1904 and 1922. Also, Laurel Bank was part of the St. John's Short Course used between 1907 and 1910 and part of the Snaefell Mountain Course used since 1911 for the Isle of Man TT Races and from 1923 the Manx Grand Prix."

That text applies equally to long segments of the SMC course--most of the course?--and is covered elsewhere better.

The current article has no information beyond what can easily be covered in its row in this list-article.

Further, the current article fails to identify what "Laurel Bank" is, and fails to assert importance (wp:A7). In fact it is a named corner of the road and a vantage point for spectators viewing Isle of Man TT races. For example, per this source, it as a "Fast Right-Hand Turn" 8.75 miles from the SMC startline.

Quick google search on "Laurel Bank Isle of Man" yields nice 2010 Youtube clip showing 3 racers going through right-turn bend (one being John McGuiness), and news of a non-fatal racing accident ("William Dunlop airlifted to hospital after crashing during Isle of Man TT practice lap" and about same), but no source of coverage substantially about Laurel Bank.

References

Given this, I will PROD the article for deletion, linking to this section. Done Laurel Bank's table-row in "List of named corners" already provides its location, and I will revise it now Done (to identify it as a righthand bend rather than a series of bends and to give the Manx translation). --doncram 13:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Agljones, do you now agree with the content of the Laurel Bank row? --doncram 14:37, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I prodded the article towards deletion. It appeared one editor "11thmilestone" objected, and removed the prod but with no explanation. Then it later turned out that was a sock-puppet of Agljones.

I am now simply redirecting the article to its row in the list-article. I was expecting to open an AfD about it because the prod was removed and a discussion would be needed. But, with Agljones blocked for 6 months and having provided no reasoned support for it (whether in his name or as a sockpuppet), there is not plausibly any support from anyone at all to keep the article. Re-prodding might be okay because the prod removal was invalid, or it might not be okay because an article can only be prodded once. The reasonable outcome anyhow is to redirect, so I am just implementing that. If anyone notices and cares, feel free to comment ASAP. As a discussion item this is  Done. --doncram 19:22, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Stonebreakers Hut

Just to put a nail in it, as a redlink Stonebreaker's Hut (with apostrophe) shows up as an item in editor Agljones' preferred list as if it is a notable place, listed at mileage 29.58, and as I came across and am just now delinking an old link to it from the Verandah article. (By the way note that the next item in Agljones' list was Verandah at mileage 29.80, while in fact Verandah is a stretch of road not a point location and presumably starts before the location of the stonebreakers hut.) There was an article at Stonebreakers Hut (no apostrophe) which got up to this last version as an article, which IMHO was properly eliminated simply by redirection to Verandah, Isle of Man. There appears to have been no AFD about it. The article has text block repeated in many corner articles, and practically zero corner-specific content ...that the Crabtree crash "nearby" happened is covered, and better, in the Verandah article. The fact that there is or was a small building or two is not of encyclopedic interest, and can be mentioned if necessary (why?) in the Verandah article. Or just addressed by a photo and caption in the Verandah article, without being mentioned in any main text. No importance at all asserted or suggested.

11th Milestone

Main article: 11th Milestone, Isle of Man and Talk:11th Milestone, Isle of Man

• 11th Milestone. No description of location and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. The photo shows the larger Garrow style 13th milestone on the A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road and not the 11th Milestone. Main article written in British English and do not change style without general consensus. Wikipedia states that plain English should be used but also notes that the first person singular should not be used. Do not use US informal speech patterns with British English and in particular the conjugation of irregular verbs in British-English as there is a difference in style. Therefore it is "named after" and "that" rather than "who" as used in informal speech-pattens. The main emphasis should be on the road and the description of the S-Bend as the 11th Milestone is used as a local term to describe the area rather than the not widely used term Drinkwaters Bend.
• 26th Milestone. Description and map coordinates can be found on the main article. It is the 26th Milestone on the Snaefell Mountain Course and not the 26th Milestone on the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road. Highly controversial fatal accident during 2014 Isle of Man TT not mentioned. It was renamed as Joey's and has a new road course marker board and not "Also, known as Joey's" and again use of incorrect informal speech patterns not found in British English and use of first person singular. --Agljones

Agljones above criticizes current row about 11th Milestone, including:

11th Milestone. No description of location and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. The photo shows the larger Garrow style 13th milestone on the A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road and not the 11th Milestone. [...] The main emphasis should be on the road and the description of the S-Bend as the 11th Milestone is used as a local term to describe the area rather than the not widely used term Drinkwaters Bend.

So Agljones is suggesting the pic in the row is wrong, that there's no description in the row, and no coordinates in the row. But in fact the row did include map coordinates already (from the main article). And I hesitate to describe the location based on the main article, because the main article seems nonsensical. And I already asked elsewhere about the photo and Agljones suggested it was correct.

So, is the pic included both in the row and in the separate article, right or wrong? And how can the location be described? The article states "11th Milestone or "Drinkwater's Bend"[1] is a corner [on the A3] situated between the 11th Milestone and 12th Milestone road-side markers on the Snaefell Mountain Course...". Huh? So the 11th Milestone must be omething other than the 11th Milestone road-side marker (else it cannot be between 11th and 12th Milestone road-side markers). And I previously asked at Talk:11th Milestone, Isle of Man#Pic of 11th or 13th? about the pic which shows a "metal milestone" (which is labelled as 13th?). Agljones replied there suggesting the pic is correct to use describing the 11th Milestone...i think because the metal milestone is apparently at 13th mile mark of the A2 (meaning A3 !!) road on the way from Castletown to Ramsey? Which is at the 11th mile point on the race course. Okay...but now Agljones suggests the photo is wrong???? Agljones, is it right or wrong for this photo to be used to illustrate 11th milestone topic? And can you please suggest here exact text of a short description of the location that could be used? --doncram 06:28, 18 March 2015 (UTC) --doncram

Agljones, will you not reply? I think the best way forward is to improve the article first, about all these ambiguities. --doncram 13:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Ballacraine

Ballacraine. No photograph and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. The map coordinates show a field to the north-west of Ballacraine. The description should be A1 Douglas to Peel Road and A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road. The road junction is situated at the east end of St.Johns village and not Ballacraine village. Description is incorrect as the road junction contains Ballacraine farm and the former Ballacraine Hotel on opposite sides of the road and the non-existing "Ballacraine Village" does not overlook the two features. The translation of Ballacraine as a Manx Gaelic place-name is not listed. Again, informal speech pattens rather than British-English and should read "private residence" rather than "private house." --Agljones

Right I added the coordinates from the Ballacraine to the table row. Agljones, could you provide improved coordinates for use in both places?

Okay now the "A1 (Douglas to Peel Road)" appears in the Ballagarey Corner row just before, and "A1 and A3 (Castletown to Ramsey Road)" appears in Ballacraine row now.

Thanks, okay now it says east end of St. Johns village, and also I edited the Ballacraine article to remove its ambiguity about what village it referred to, also.

The note used "private house" because that's how editor Agljones wrote it into the Ballacraine article. I have have changed that to "private residence" in both places.

Farm and Hotel are on opposite sides of which road? I'm happy for anyone to describe them specific in the note.

Whether to mention derivation of "Ballacraine" as a word or not is a matter of editorial selection; anyone can add that if they wish.

There's very little additional information in the Ballacraine article than what is included here in the list-article, I note.

Is the table row note now okay? --doncram 21:03, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Ballacrye Corner

• Ballacrye. No description and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. The location should read A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road. --Agljones

The table entry includes those coordinates and gives "A3 (Castletown to Ramsey Road)".

I wrote description about it being a jump.

I note the table entry now has everything about the corner in the Ballacrye Corner article, plus more.

The Ballacrye row is okay now? --doncram 21:20, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Ballagarey Corner

• Ballgarey. No photograph or description and the map-cordinates can be found in the main article. The location should be described as the A1 Douglas to Peel Road.--Agljones

Location has been revised to say it is on "A1 (Douglas to Peel Road)".

Coordinates from the Ballagary Corner article are in the table item (and were there already AFAIK).

The "Notes" now includes derivation of Ballagary word. To me it appears there's no other information in the Ballagarey Corner article available about the corner (while there is some info about the general area).

Searching at commons.wikimedia.org yields no photos, no hits on "Ballagarey", "Ballagary", or "Ballgarey" or "Ballgary" at all.

The Ballagary Corner row is okay? --doncram 01:02, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Birkin's Bend

• Birkin's Bend. The location should be described as the A3 Castletown to Ramsey Road. The map co-ordinates show a field to the west of Rhencullen. Main article written in British-English and again the use of informal speech pattens and incorrect English with description starting "Actually...." and then reads "who was killed in crash here." Birkin's Bend not a series of four bends it is part of the Rhecullen series of four bends. There is no mention of Tim Birkin, the corner being named after the crash or the change in practice regulations.--Agljones

• "Castletown to Ramsey Road" added
• Revised to state "is part of the Rhencullen series of bends"
• Tim Birkin is mentioned and corner is "named after" him
• Approximately: "From 1928 public roads were closed for practice runs" added.
• --doncram 02:09, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Brandywell

• Brandywell. The map co-ordinates show a point 1 km south-east of Brandywell Corner on the B10 Brandywell Road. This should be named Brandywell Corner to distinguish it from the area known generally as Brandywell. It is between the 31st and 32nd Milestones on the Snaefell Mountain Course and not the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road. It should be described as a corner on the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road as road traffic operates in both directions. There is no such official description of ""TT course" and provide a citation for this or it will be challenged and be removed. The official description is now Isle of Man Department of Infrastructure. There is a photograph is included for Brandywell. However, Wikipedia does have rules about photographs including ambiguous elements in photographs. The most distinguishing feature of the Brandywell Corner is the TT Marshal shelter and the sheep-gate. These can be seen in the photograph only as ambiguous elements and not acceptable. A further point is that all Isle of Man TT racing photographs need to be checked for year, race number and competitor. This photograph shows a competitor that was later very badly injured in a highly controversial race accident and is not appropriateWP:NPOV. --Agljones

Brandish Corner

• Brandish Corner. It is between the 35th and 36th Racing Milestones on the Snaefell Mountain Course and not the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road. Main article written in British-English and again the use of informal speech pattens and incorrect English with description starting;- "Named for Walter Brandish..." and should read "after" and again the pronoun "who" used as a transitive verb. The use of the indented clause is not necessary. Again another photograph with ambiguous elements and incorrect description.--Agljones

Gooseneck

Steve Hislop riding the rotary-engined Norton RCW 588 at the Gooseneck, Isle of Man (photo #1)

Gooseneck from above (photo #2)

• Gooseneck. It is between the 25th and 26th Racing Milestones on the Snaefell Mountain Course and not the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road. Map-coordinates can be found in the main article. The corner is not a hairpin bend and the Gooseneck is not like Ramsey hairpin which is actually defined as a hairpin. Main article written in British-English and again the use of informal speech pattens and incorrect English and do not change style from British English without a general consensus. The description should read 25th Milestone and 26th Milestone in British-English and not Milestone 25 and Milestone 26. It is not appropriate to list the fatal accidents as they do not define the corner and these two accidents actually occurred 150 metres below the corner and 250 metres above the Gooseneck corner. The Gooseneck is also described as a general location outside of the corner in the same context as Brandywell, Windy Corner and the 11th Milestone. Photograph again shows ambiguous elements and as with Brandywell the distinctive shelter cannot be seen. The Gooseneck Corner can be defined form the road junction of the D28 Hibernia Road northbound following the east-side bank reaching the north point of the stonewall and is approximately one-third of the 900 foot distance quoted in the article. The translation of the Manx Gaelic place-name is not listed in the description.--Agljones

• About milestones etc., location is described differently now in table row, see that.
• "Hairpin corner" changed to "sharp corner".
• About pic to use in row, there are only two photos to choose from, which I post on the right, here. For the small pic space here in list-article, Photo #2 shows poorly, Photo #1 is far better. I disagree about there being any problem with showing Steve Hislop, who apparently died racing elsewhere. It would be crazy to eliminate all pics of a person throughout wikipedia for reason that they died in an accident. Wikipedia shows pics of Abraham Lincoln and Alexander Litvinenko and many other persons who died tragically. And using that photo suggests no controversy here.
• About Gooseneck being a larger area, that can be asserted (if you have sources) in the article, but even if supported, it seems not useful to describe in short list-article description.
• For the description, I drew from what was available in corresponding article. Current version is:

  A sharp corner that is a popular vantage point, where spectators can be very close to the riders. Fatal accidents in 1955 and 1994. occurred coming into and out of this corner.

References

• I thought I picked the best info, but please feel free to draft & share an alternative, here. --doncram 22:28, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Ramsey Hairpin

• Ramsey Hairpin. It is between the 24th and 25th Racing Milestones on the Snaefell Mountain Course and not the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road. The Ramsey hairpin is just outside the Ramsey town boundary. The translation of the Manx Gaelic place-name is not listed in the description and is now called Elfin Glen.

School House Corner

Location and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. It is not appropriate to list the fatal accident as they do not define the corner. Other fatal accidents have not been listed. Originally called Crossacks Lane(?)--Agljones

Signpost Corner

• Signpost Corner. Location and the map coordinates can be found on the main article. As with the entry for Brandywell corner, all Isle of Man TT racing photographs need to be checked for year, race number and competitor. This photograph shows a competitor that was later killed in a highly controversial race accident on road-racing circuit in Northern Ireland and is not appropriateWP:NPOV.--Agljones

The Nook

• The Nook. As with previous entries, location and map coordinates can be found on the main article. Location description far too long for the row and should perhaps read either A2 Douglas to Ramsey Road, A2 Governors Road or A2 Quaterbridge Road. Description fails to mention substantial road improvements. No photograph included.--Agljones

Tower Bends

• Tower Bends. As with previous entries, location and map coordinates can be found on the main article. Reads "....25th Milestone road-side marker of the race" and is an incomplete sentence. Description has no relation to the S-Bend and should be removed completely. No photograph included. The translation of the Ballastowell farm next to the S-Bend from the Manx Gaelic place-name is not listed in the description.
• Verandah. Location and map coordinates can be found on the main article. Location description far too long for the row. No photograph included. It is between the 30th and 31st Road Racing Milestones on the Snaefell Mountain Course and not the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road. Main article written in British-English and again the use of informal speech pattens and with Birkin's Bend incorrect English with description starting "Actually...." as used in informal speech pattens. The corner can only be described as four bends for the motor-cycle racing line. For general road use the "four bends" are actually one irregular, eccentric, single reverse curve. The fatal accidents do not define the corner and need to be removed. The significance of the fatal accidents is described in the article and not the description. The description is "killed in the fog here" showing again incorrect English as found in informal speech patterns and the incorrect use of the first person. This is incorrect English is repeated with "also had a fatal accident here" and starting a sentence with "And" as used again in informal speech patterns. The description also reads "....serving as a world championship event..." which suggests that perhaps an internet language translate has been used. It should read something like "losing its FIM World Championship status." --Agljones

Water Works Corner

• Water Works Corner. Location and map coordinates can be found on the main article. Location description far too long for the row. No photograph included. It is between the 24th and 25th Road Racing Milestones on the Snaefell Mountain Course and not the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road. Main article written in British-English and again the use of informal speech pattens and with Birkin's Bend and the Verandah incorrect English with description starting "Actually,...." as used in informal speech pattens. The Water Works Corner is not a series of corners, but one single corner.--Agljones

Windy Corner

• Windy Corner. Location and map coordinates can be found on the main article. Location description far too long for the row and the first set of milestone markers are a confusing element in the location description. The coordinates in the list give a location near to the 26th Milestone. It is between the 32nd Milestone and 33rd Milestone Road Racing Milestones on the Snaefell Mountain Course. Over long, ridiculous, nonsensical description which does not explain as with Brandywell Corner and the Gooseneck the area is known for its general location. The spectator vantage point is repeated twice and not really a vantage point due to its restricted off-road parking and restricted access during racing events. The reason for the name is in the second sentence with no citation for the "micro-climate." The weather conditions which cause the south-westerly winds also cause low-cloud, hill and heavy rain. Since the 1935 Isle of Man TT Races, any event with bad weather causes the race to be delayed or postponed to the next day and the area at the Windy Corner is susceptible to low cloud and hill mist. The weather conditions that are supposed to create the "whistling" for spectators or the cross-winds for motor-cycle racers are much reduced or do not occur. (This can verified from Isle of Man Meteorological Records that wind speeds are lower in the summer months and the rainfall caused by rainfall systems. Also, there is a colloquial expression for "Isle of Man TT weather"(a citation can be found for this term) which refers to the rain and low cloud and the Isle of Man TT races being delayed or postponed). The redirected article gives a full encyclopaedic description with notability. Main article written in British-English and again the use of informal speech pattens and incorrect use of English grammar including unnecessary indented clause. The description reads cross-winds "push high-speed motorcycle racers to one side or to the other." The cross-wind is from one side only and the description is nonsensical and a recent publication in 2014 gives a motor-cycle corner speed for the Windy Corner of only 95mph.--Agljones

I put in about the right amount of coverage for Windy Corner, I think. There has been a ton of discussion at Talk:Windy Corner and a lot of material in the Windy Corner article, however. The Windy Corner article is probably to be redirected to the Windy Corner row in this table, when this is in mainspace, but there needs to be coverage here, either way. I welcome discussion here about what the row text should be. --doncram 16:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Agljones stated in another section: *In regard to the “Windy Corner” section the weather conditions that you allude too that causes problems to spectators and competitors don not really occur as since the 1935 Senior Isle of Man TT Race any bad weather conditions cause the postponement of racing to the next day. The Isle of Man TT Races are Manx Grand Prix are generally run in better weather conditions than other Isle of Man or UK sporting events. Weather conditions can affect other parts of the course including Cruonk-y-Voddy straight and also the Mountain Mile.

To respond, isn't the quote from much later than 1935? I don't think the quote is wrong. And I don't see anything usable from this, to put into this list-article...I can't just put in unsourced views about what the weather is usually like. --doncram 21:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

The separate article has been redirected to the Windy Corner row in this list-article. Agljones, I think the best way forward would be for you to propose here a new draft for the Windy Corner's description, here. I hope you can include that riders now go through at about 95 mph, as you mention appears in some 2014 publication. Could you suggest your alternate version here, please? --doncram 21:45, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

a righthander during one-way races is a two-way public road otherwise, okay yes we get that

In this diff with summary "road traffic on A18 operates in both directions (potential issues of notability with linked article", an editor removed the description for Signpost Corner. The description was:

Right turn corner. When a rider passed, observers at a signal station here would telephone ahead to an official in the TT Grandstand area, who would switch that rider's individual scoreboard light on. This warned pit-crew and race-officials that the rider has passed Signpost Corner and may shortly be pulling into the pit lane at the TT Grandstand to refuel.

References

I understand -- fully, it is obvious -- that while the corner is a righthander for racers, during the rest of the year it is a public two-way road, and then it is a left turn for the traffic going in the opposite direction. I think we can expect encyclopedia readers to understand that a right turn going one way is a left turn going the other way. Or, does someone think that is not obvious????

This is a list article of turns in a race-course...none of these places have any significance worthy of encyclopedia coverage apart from their role in the racing circuit.

It is perfectly accurate to describe it as a right turn, in context of describing them as turns in the SMC circuit. The intro to the list-article states the race is on public roads. It could further be stated in the intro that the descriptions below refer to turns in race direction. I will add such a statement, and will be happy to see the wording refined there. However the same editor has repeatedly removed almost all introduction to the article, so I don't know whether that will be "allowed" if that editor is in charge of wikipedia.

The same point about two-way vs. one-way has been made a dozen or more times by the editor in edit summaries about other turns, too, adding tedious length.

The rest of the text gives brief summary of importance of Signpost Corner, and it implicitly invites readers interested in this to click to the separate Signpost Corner article to read more about that if they like. And, there is no reason whatsoever to remove it, as far as I can tell. To the editor who has removed it repeatedly, could you please explain what on earth you are thinking?

I will restore this and all other descriptions for now, pending any discussion and consensus against them on this Talk page. And I will revise the wording slightly for the Signpost Corner entry and otherwise continue to develop this. So far this month, 100% of Talk page commenters (i.e., me) is for having the list-article include summary descriptions and function like other list-articles do. --doncram 14:01, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Some about "two-way" issue, about Laurel Bank, about 11thmilestone <-> Agljones interaction comes out in comments elsewhere:

• Editor 11thmilestone at Talk:Laurel Bank opposes PROD by:

  Oppose. Deletion is opposed as there is no notability issues as the article is defined by a single neutral source. It is unnecessary to delete the article Laurel Bank. The article has been defined as a "geographical feature" or "natural" landmark as described in the article named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course by the same editor DOCRAM that has nominated the article. The reasons for deleting article under (wp:A7) are also the same reasons for supporting the inclusion of the article. As explained by other editors, there is a section of road and the public road traffic can be seen operating in both directions (left and right are not relevant). The editor DACRAM has confused the issue by using the term "flag markers" which is completely meaningless in British/English which is mainly used for writing the IOM TT/motor-cycle article area. 18:48, 13 June 2015 (UTC) 11thmilestone

• By the "other editors", I believe that editor 11thmilestone refers to editor Agljones and only that editor. There is a table-row about Laurel Bank in the List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course Agljones commented about:

• At the list-article, in titled "removing term "Marker Flag" as not used in British English. Marker boards in position all year round. WP:OP no citation", Agljones indicates his preference for "marker board" rather than "marker flag" by edit summary but deletes an entire sentence rather than substituting the other word.
• The previous edit there was "revise Laurel Bank row per Talk. Agljones now disputes what he himself wrote into Laurel Bank article, on which this row was based" by me.
• Previously in successive edits "Removing meaningless/incorrect descriptions. Issues of OR per wikipedia rules Conflict with British English style of linked articles creating problems of notability issues. road traffic operates in both directions)" and this Agljones

expressed view that there is some issue about the roads being two-way (during the rest of the year, while the turns and roads are only significant for the encyclopedia during the racing). And that was repeated more, too.

• • In these edits i developed discussion about Laurel Bank at Talk of the list-article. No one responded. 11thmilestone creates idea that there are "editors" supporting it being kept as a separate list-article.

  About the two-way nonsense, I opened discussion at List_of_named_corners_of_the_Snaefell_Mountain_Course#a righthander during one-way races is a two-way public road otherwise, okay yes we get that; no response there.

• However some truth seems to be revealed in Agljones' statement at my Talk: "It is not acceptable to refer to a "right" or "left hand" bend in an article as it is then quite correctly referred to as a non-notable corner and subjected to another AfD deletion" within his 19:34, 17 June 2015 edit. Agljones had not previously explained what he was driving at in his repetition about roadways being two-way, but I get this (original or extra) reason now: The statement refers to sarcasm expressed by deletion-nominator of many named corner articles, who refers to one or more of them as just a "bend in the road" in rather biting deletion nominations. So, while named corners are indeed bends in the road, sometimes left turns and sometimes right-handers in the direction of racing, and described as such in sources, Agljones deems that should not be said in an article. One thing to observe is that some of the turns are notable as turns during the racing, and for no other reason. For another, avoiding stating what an article is about, i.e. avoiding explaining what a named corner is, and rather falsely making it out to be something it is not (i.e. a larger area of importance or an intersection that is of year-round importance somehow), is a sure way to undermine any potential support for separate articles (including mine) and to attract deletion-minded attention. --doncram 14:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Dub Cottage

cached page content --Rocknrollmancer (talk) 22:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

That's the same as this page within history of Dub Cottage article, the last version before I redirected it. The old info is still accessible (by going to Dub Cottage, getting redirected, then scroll up to top and click on Dub Cottage to go back to the redirect, where all past history is available). As you can see, there was NOTHING in the text specific to Dub Cottage. I used the coordinates and the picture in the redirect target, a Dub Cottage row in the List of named corners.

Rocknrollmancer, I wonder if you have the opinion that the separate Dub Cottage article should continued to exist separately in mainspace, instead of being redirected. IMO, it is clear that it should not...it has no content...it seems wrong to direct readers there...it undermines credibility that links to other named corners will provide substantial/interesting info. Do discuss! --doncram 16:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

No, that's OK, I glanced at the link thinking it had been previously deleted some time ago!! I then noticed but left it as it was because I was doing other things, but the Alpine Cottage article (same basic info) could be merged IF they are near...I don't suppose they are? Not checked that, either. I also note the Template:Infobox TT course has been deleted, not checked into that, also. I don't really know how to, easily, but this is what I meant. Gotta go.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 17:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)