Talk:Robert Bates (loyalist)

This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Biography

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the `\|auto=` parameter.

Northern Ireland Mid‑importance

	Northern Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Northern IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject Northern IrelandTemplate:WikiProject Northern IrelandNorthern Ireland-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Human rights Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ireland Low‑importance

	Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

The Belfast Agreement[edit]

[...] Actually, I think what happened was that he was released on parole in preparation for the signing of the agreement. But because he was killed before the actual signing he didn't fall under the general release. Or could there have been another way why he was out, especially since there no parole option for him? Or there any citations how this was overturned? Many thanks! Mootros (talk) 09:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's along the right lines: it's wasn't through the Agreement that he was released (on parole/licence), I'd say, but through the confidence-buildings measures, esp. proposed prisoner releases, that were flagged up from an early date as being a prerequisite for paramilitary support of any agreement that might be made. But finding a citation for this will be v. difficult! Billsmith60 (talk) 10:58, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, unfortunately we can't link the Belfast Agreement to Bates' release, even though it seems clear that the confidence-building measures I referred to before were impt in his gaining his freedom. So I've had to revert that article to what is verifiable until someone can find a reference to support this hypothesis. Regards, Billsmith60 (talk) 23:32, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I thought it was carefully worded, merely stating the time-scale. Do you think this is not useful? Cheers, Mootros (talk) 12:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again, I know exactly where you're coming from and am sympathetic. Clearly Bates' release was very impt in the context of how prisoner releases would fit into the Belfast Agreement. But without any authoritative source, our views are speculation. Let's see, though, if we can't find a source that discusses this point. As to the timescale you mention, it's not really relevant to the article but will become so if we can find the source(s) we're looking for. All the best, Billsmith60 (talk) 09:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Butchers[edit]

This article is not about the Shankill Butchers: it's about Bates. The Butchers' article is clear on who their victims were, so there is no need to repeat that information here. Billsmith60 (talk) 16:03, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be pointed out that he was killed by the son of one of his Protestant victims, to highlight the fact that the Butchers also murdered Protestants as well as Catholics.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 04:54, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, in summary form, I would say. Mootros (talk) 12:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That fact is in the second sentence of the Butchers' article and does not need to appear here. No one can dispute that the gang killed people from both communities, although Roman Catholics were their chief targets. I have amended the article to say that the original victim was a UDA man Billsmith60 (talk) 15:59, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It looks good now.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:04, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Edit and Claims by Cusack and McDonald[edit]

A 'doubtful' tag needs to accompany the recent edit asserting that Bates organised the murder of Joseph Morrissey. William Moore, not Bates, was the operational commander of the Butchers while Lenny Murphy was in prison, and Moore commanded the operation during which Mr Morrissey was murdered. Perhaps someone can verify that the edit matches the text of that book (p. 181,) before the tag is added? Thanks, Billsmith60 (talk) 18:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Despite "Keresaspa" rewording this section, the fact remains that Bates was not involved in any way in the murder of Mr Morrissey. For instance, that death was not one of the ten for which he was later charged with murder, and Dillon does not mention him in connection with it. Can someone please relay what Cusack and McDonald actually say on p. 181 of their book, so that an appropriate wording can be agreed and/or that claim removed from the article. Thanks all, Billsmith60 (talk) 00:20, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Killer[edit]

"Bates was shot dead by the son of a UDA man he had killed in 1977. The killer identified himself to Bates as the son of his victim before opening fire." - Two things. The given source only identifies the killer as "the son of one of his protestant victims". Martin Dillon's book describes the killer as "a protestant". Wikipedia's article however strongly implies that the killer was the son of James Moorhead, murdered in 1977 (the article spells his name Moorhead, but it appears to be Moorehead, with an e). What is the source of this connection? Secondly, the killer shot Bates three times in the head, killing him instantly, and there were no witnesses. How do we know he "identified himself to Bates as the son of his victim"? Who heard this? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 22:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]