Talk:Shenandoah Valley Academy/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Objectives, Copyright Information

The objectives listed on the page originally were a direct copy from a promotional brochure published by SVA entitled "Take a close look at SVA" which stated in the footer that "Copyright (c) 2008 Permission is granted to reproduce in any form in reference to SVA and its beliefs" or something to that effect. Because of this, I believed it would be appropriate to list these on the wikipedia article. I was not aware that they were also listed on the website. Because of this I have reworded it to be more in paragraph form. _WikiMan^One 21:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Sports Championships

If you take the time to look back through the records on MaxPreps.com you will see that SVA has won quite a number of Basketball Championships. It has also won soccer championships a number of times but I have not been able to find an online source for that. (Our school newspaper is not online) However, I have moved the source for the championship down to the athletics section since that seems more appropriate... _WikiMan^One 23:21, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, sources don't have to be online. See Wikipedia:Offline sources for more information. --TorriTorri^{(Talk to me!)} 23:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Assessment

I am assessing this article for WikiProject Schools as C-class on the quality scale. Firstly, it is nice to have some pictures though there are some problems with the licensing of these which I have marked on Commons. The image in the infobox should normally be the school logo. The lead needs to be expanded to better summarise the article, see WP:LEAD. It is currently dominated by accreditation and sports. The rest of the article needs to be re-structured more to the standard layout of school articles - see WP:WPSCH/AG#S. Some content on the schools philosophy is not a bad thing (perhaps as part of a curriculum section), but a copy of the mission statement should not be included per WP:WPSCH/AG#WNTI. The article's referencing is good though citation templates should be used where possible, see WP:CITET. Many of the off-line references in particular are rather vague and more information should be given. References can be after of before punctuation, but the article should use one style only throughout, and Wikipedia should not cite itself. There is still plenty of room for expansion (alumni, history e.t.c. - see WP:WPSCH/AG#S), and the athletics section should focus more on prose and less on lists, the former being more useful to readers. Finally, I am downgrading this article to low-importance as there is currently not enough evidence to justify a higher importance rating. Camaron · Christopher · talk 13:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

A bit of a late comment from a WP:Virginia assessor. I have removed some neutrality problems and have also removed a bit about its location in relation to I-81, which does not add to the article, and also was referenced only by a map. I added an NPOV tag to bring attention to this biased article. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 14:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see anything on the page that is not fully sourced. If you can bring attention to anything specific that shows bias please point it out. I will remove the tag shortly if nothing specific is brought up. _WikiMan^One 18:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Collapsing to make page more succint

As for referencing errors, there are a few problems. First, "consistent winner of championships in a number of sports" could probobly be sourced. Since I cannot see the Daily News Register article, I cannot verify that content. The tag, however is about Neutrality, Meaning that the article is biased. Please do not remove it, as none of the promotional language has been removed. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Isn't the statement "consistent winner of championships in a number of sports" sourced later on in the article when the list of recent awards is given? The lead of an article doesn't necesarially have to have sources for things that are expounded upon later on in the article. Again, is there any specific promotional language that you found in the article? _WikiMan^One 22:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess you're right on that. The neutrality problems remain, however. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 23:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you point out any specific language that needs to be changed so we can work on it? If you can't list any specific then the tag seems pretty mute. _WikiMan^One 17:52, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I would say that the history section needs the most work. With statements like "has its beginnings in 1905 on Charles D. Zirkle's death bed," "fulfilling Zirkle's wish," and "even across national borders from South Korea, Angola, Great Britain, and South America" seem promotional in tone. Describe the history without promoting the school. I would say that the objectives are marketing related, and should be removed (the reference indeed says that they are included in promotional materials). Some more language that reads like it comes from a brochure would include "which rounds out the official music groups" (Performing arts), and "is crucial to campus life at SVA" (athletics). Consider if "after their 7:0 rout of Highland View Academy's Tartans in April 2010" is necessary in the soccer team caption. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 18:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

May 2010 assessment

As per a request at the Schools project, I am reassessing this article. At this time, I am making no changes to the article's assessment of C class and Mid importance.

In the process of assessing, I have added some requests for clarification and citation. I also removed some wording that, while certainly not intentional, violates WP:WEASEL. ~~Based on past consensus, sport/activities championships are generally not listed unless they are state or national level championships.~~ I did initially request a cite on the comment has its beginnings in 1905 on Charles D. Zirkle's death bed, but found that this was supported by a later reference. I reworked the reference to cover that, and to cover the fulfilling Zirkle's wish part as well.

The listing of countries was also problematic as "Great Britain" and "South America" are not countries. I think I have made corrections to this to make it more factually accurate. There were also some issues with tone in the first paragraph that made for awkward reading. I think I fixed some of that.

There was one person listed in the notable alumni section. The person failed WP:BIO, and was listed as heading a company that was itself not notable. People of this nature are generally not listed in school articles.

There was a comment about the athletic program having a high level of participation. The supporting reference was from the school newspaper. There may be some things that can be supported by the school paper, but this is a claim that really cannot be. I removed the source and fact tagged for a reliable source. If an outside source can be found, then the statement can be kept. Otherwise, it sounds very much like an opinion, and needs to go.

Checking this article against the criteria for a B class article:

The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations where necessary.N (some material still requires citation and sourcing)
The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies.Y
It contains a large proportion of the material necessary for an A-Class article, although some sections may need expansion, and some less important topics may be missing.N (some sections require expansion, notably in the history and curriculum sections)
The article has a defined structure.Y (though the article should be reordered to conform to the sectioning given to other school articles)
The article is reasonably well-written.Y
The prose contains no major grammatical errors and flows sensibly, but it certainly need not be "brilliant". The Manual of Style need not be followed rigorously.Y (recently improved)
The article contains supporting materials where appropriate.Y
Illustrations are encouraged, though not required. Diagrams and an infobox etc. should be included where they are relevant and useful to the content.Y
The article presents its content in an appropriately accessible way.Y

My main concerns:

Check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines#Sections of the article to better bring this article in line with the structure of other school articles. This can mostly be achieved with some moving around of paragraphs.
The school's history needs to be expanded. Especially when trying to assert the importance of a school, the most critical things to look at are history, alumni, awards, curriculum, and campus, and in my opinion, those first two are the most critical. It is for this that the article needs to stay at Mid importance, as there is no assertion that the school holds an exceptional history or list of prominent alumni, as defined by Wikipedia (please do not interpret this as a sleight against the school or its students ... it is very possible that many of the school's students go on to lead fulfilling lives that serve their fellow man .... that is exceptionally admirable, but does not in and of itself meet guidelines of notability).
The curriculum should be expanded. It notes that there are three diploma options. Does one need to apply for them? Does the school decide? Are there placement tests? What is entailed in fulfilling the options (don't go into too much detail, but more info is needed, and it needs to be cited).

I wish editors working on this article the very best of success. I hope that all involved editors will take this purely as constructive critique, and not undue criticism. LonelyBeacon (talk) 19:52, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

POV

@USER:WikiManOne: Why did you restore "has its beginnings," language that would be found only in a PR brochure from the school? And, what is the supposed difference? Although Zirkle did not found the school, that does not mean that the school did not begin with his land donation. Why did you restore the confrence awards that LonelyBeacon clearly stated that "awards are generally not listed except for state/national level; conference titles are not generally considered notable." Finally, I would like to bring your attention to the statement "Many of the players on its varsity teams go on to play in college athletics at various colleges." and ask that you revise it and note that the references do not truly support that statement. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

On the history language, saying that the school began on someone's death bed is inprecise. As someone who is somewhat knowledgable on SVA's history, I think its a colossal misstatement to make it sound as if Charles Zirkle was the main figure behind its founding. Such a simplistic statement would disregard the services of many other of the founders who did more than choose to donate some land they had no use for. If you have a way to make that distinction clear without making it somewhat clear that Zirkle's action was simply a catalyst that cause others to move and create the school, shoot! On the awards I have significant question as to whether listing of conference awards are not notable. Previouis editors have never made this point, and other schools also have mention of conference awards. Finally, the statement being contested is being supported in that, the sources given document at least two different alumni who play for played for at least two different college teams. So the articles do actually substantiate the statement. _WikiMan^One 20:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

My question is the word "many" which can be considered a bit weasel-y. I will ask LonelyBeacon for clarification, as I am not involved with WP Schools. How about something like this for the history language:

"In 1905 while on his death bed, Charles D. Zirkle donated 45 acres of his property to build a school.(question:to whom?) In 1907, constriction began on SVA's main building;..." --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 21:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I would be happy with the new sentence for the opening of the history section. "Many" may not be the best word for that sentence, but I am not sure I can think of any better way to phrase it. If you do a google news archives search, or look through SVA's athletic archives, there's no question that a very large number of SVA's varsity players go on to play for college. _WikiMan^One 22:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Replaced sentence. Left "most," I, like you do not have any brilliant solutions. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 22:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice. BTW, at the end of the History section, you added the clarification needed template, would mind clarifying that here? I'm not sure I understand what needs to be clarified. _WikiMan^One 23:20, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The exact enrollment. I have seen sources saying from any where from 150-240, most of which are preceded by "about." Is there an exact number, and also, what is the exact number for 2008? What I see of the cited source it says about 150, which is much lower than the given 230 for 2010. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 23:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

collapsing redundant text

I'm not sure I could find a source that lists the exact enrollment for 2010. Enrollment between 2007-2009 was lower because new came in and reorganized the school, forcing many students out. I know the number given for 2010 is about right, I go at SVA. It's jumped back now but I can't seem to find a source for it. I could go through and count the pictures in my yearbook and use that as a source if that's acceptable? _WikiMan^One 23:42, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I will go ahead and use my yearbook for a reliable, although not independent, source. Do you have any other suggestions to improve the article? _WikiMan^One 00:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

this states that 175 was the enrollment in 2007-2008 and high-schools.com says the enrollment is 235 right now. Strange that they don't post that on their website. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 00:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

::I just posted a new number based on the most recent yearbook the Shenandoan from the school. _WikiMan^One 01:01, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Extracurricular activities/Campus Ministries section for main article

I'm going to be working on a section on SVA's campus ministries in this part of the article, feel free to edit or comment while it is in progress... _WikiMan^One 20:32, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Regarding sports championships

I have reexamined the guideines for schools articles (Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines#Sections of the article), and given the situation in Virginia, where private schools are ineligible for state level awards, I would say that it is OK to list conference titles. If that list starts getting long, it may need to be put into a dropdown box to avoid taking up too much space. I don't think that is the case now. Does Virginia not have a "private school state championship" in anything?

Of course, this is not a pronouncement ... if anyone has any thoughts on this, please speak up. LonelyBeacon (talk) 22:17, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Final call on images

Two images uploaded to Commons related to this school do not have the required evidence of permission, and will likely be deleted after seven days unless such permission is provided. These images are File:ShenandoahAcademy.jpg and File:ShenandoahValleyAcademy.jpg. Please see commons:Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard#Shenandoah Valley Academy images for more details. CT Cooper · talk 16:18, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

July 2010 Assessment

I am assessing this article following a request at WP:WPSCH/A#R, and reviewing it against the B-class criteria:

Criterion 1: This article is generally well referenced, although the references could do with further clean-up e.g. standardisation of one dating method per WP:MOSDATE, however this is not an issue for B-class. Y
Criterion 2: This article is still rather short, with the history and curriculum needing expansion, and an alumni section completely missing. However, this criterion allows for some expansion to be required and still allow an article to gain B-class, so I am giving a narrow pass here. Y
Criterion 3: Article passes this easily, but the lead is rather short for the length of the article, see WP:LEAD. Y
Criterion 4: Not perfect, but good enough for B-class. Y
Criterion 5: Contains plenty of images including the logo, though one is scheduled for deletion for lack of permission (see above). Y
Criterion 6: Article contains no issues with accessibility. Y

Overall, an article with merit but still plenty of potential. I am listing this at Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools#Potential good article candidates. CT Cooper · talk 11:33, 5 July 2010 (UTC)