Talk:Steak Diane

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Steak Diane is not a cut of meat[edit]

Steak Diane is a preparation of beef tenderloin, including its particular sauce, originally done tableside.

Steak Diane[edit]

Poor Diane. paul klenk talk 16:09, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on the Article and the Dish[edit]

I love this dish, and I like the name, as well. It is hunter's steak, because it is served medium rare, and it is good, hearty fare that is not too complicated. Also, it is similar to a Swabian dish made with pork tenderloin. I see no reason for the article's snarky remark that the dish was "considered dated in 1980." Well, excuse me! I like to serve traditional favorites from my parents' and grandparents' generations, especially on tradition-steeped occasions like Christmas. It is a charming dish, a treat for all the senses, and it never fails to delight and surprise my guests.Wkailey (talk) 14:36, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"but was considered dated by 1980..."[edit]

I think that statement needs to be removed. Yes, it is sourced - but it's a single-source, and only one person. It's not a fact, it's an opinion. I don't see any difference between that and, for (hypothetical) example, quoting Elon Musk saying "Gas powered engines are dated." I mean, right wrong or otherwise, it IS just one person's opinion. And it does indeed seem a bit snarky and not appropriate for a WP article. Lots of people, and more than a few "chefs" do not think it is dated, at all. I just don't care enough about this topic to delete it. Normally, I would. 98.194.39.86 (talk) 12:10, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a number of other references which demonstrate quite clearly that steak Diane was popular in the 1950's and 1960's and has since gone out of fashion, like the Continental restaurants where it was served. Of course, fashion is fickle and arbitrary in many ways, but I think it's important to document the social history of foods. Interestingly, Google nGrams shows a peak of references to it in the 1980's, but a lot of that seems to be setting a retro scene, as in this article: "restaurants once put phone jacks in walls next to tables. The image comes to mind of a tuxedoed captain calling out one`s name, phone in hand, and bringing vital calls between the shrimp cocktail and steak diane."; also see Jane and Michael Stern's American Gourmet; "Chef Mark Simon's menu, refreshed four times a year, blends New American with retro (steak Diane)." ("steak+diane"&dq="steak+diane"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip-7WLhMTaAhWImOAKHXDQBw8Q6AEITTAI 1995).
Of course, that doesn't mean that they aren't still listed in cookbooks and menus.
In general, we need to do a better job of putting dishes in their social context. For example, our tuna casserole article says nothing about how out-of-fashion it is, a poster child of retro foods, and by the same token a comfort food for some. There is definitely a class and region issue here, so we have to be careful not to take an editorial position, but rather report what various people say. Presumably, Reader's Digest and Saveur have different opinions. --Macrakis (talk) 14:38, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that there is a need to be careful about not letting opinion color information about a dish, but it's fair to say it's dated in the sense you are highly unlikely to find it in restaurants, and certainly not in places that have changing or trendy menus. It doesn't mean a food is good or bad. It's important to add context, especially for something as iconic as this dish. SnarkyValkyrie (talk) 14:48, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

History[edit]

The paragraph starting "In mid-20th-century New York, there was a fad for tableside-flambéed dishes.[11] By the 1940s..." Is confusing. It is out of chronological order by talking about the mid century (1950ish) and then not only going back to the 1940s, but by saying -By- the 40s, implying something lead up to that time. The sentences are attempting to suggest that a popularity of table-side flambee brought about (or coincided with) a popularity in steak Diane, which I think is important, but it needs to be reworded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SnarkyValkyrie (talk • contribs) 14:54, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. That was left over from the article having started out as New York-centric. I've reorganized the history chronologically. By the way, I would say the 1940s are as much mid-century as the 1950s -- after all, the middle ten years of the century are 1945-1955. The organizational challenge is that there are two threads of evidence leading back to Quaglino's in London. One is from Australia, the other from New York. But the Australia story is much thinner than the New York story, and the dish was probably introduced to New York and Australia pretty much simultaneously (in 1939?). The order follows the documentation. But if we were to follow the reconstructed time line of events (rather than their documentation), we'd start with London, not Australia or New York. But the London evidence is less direct. Still, the section could be reorganized that way. Perhaps you could try your hand at reorganizing it better? --Macrakis (talk) 15:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here is another possible way to rewrite that paragraph:
Steak Diane was probably invented at Quaglino's restaurant in London in the 1930s. The head chef of Quaglino's at that time, Bartolomeo Calderoni, claimed in 1988 to have invented it,[1][2] and two maîtres d'hôtel closely associated with it, Beniamino Schiavon in New York and Tony Clerici of London and Sydney (Australia), both had connections to Quaglino's. Quaglino's was serving steak cooked tableside in a chafing-dish in 1937, though the name of that dish is not documented.[3]
Steak Diane does not appear in the classics of French cuisine.[4] The name 'Diana', the Roman goddess of the hunt, has been used for various game-related foods,[5] but the "venison steak Diane" attested in Pittsburgh in 1914, although it is sautéed and flambéed, is sauced and garnished with fruits, unlike later steak Diane recipes,[6] so there does not appear to be a connection.
The earliest attestation of Steak Diane by that name is in Australia in 1940, when it was mentioned in an article about the Sydney restaurant Romano's as their signature dish. Romano's maître d'hôtel Tony Clerici said he invented it at his Mayfair (London) restaurant Tony's Grill in 1938 and named it in honor of Lady Diana Cooper.[7][8] Clerici may have learned the dish from his associate Charles Gallo-Selva, who had previously worked at the restaurant Quaglino's in London,[8][9]
During the 1940s, steak Diane was a common item on the menus of restaurants popular with New York café society, perhaps as part of the fad for tableside-flambéed dishes.[10] It was served by the restaurants at the Drake and Sherry-Netherland hotels and The Colony.[11][12] as well as the 21 Club and Le Pavillon.[13][11] In New York, it is often attributed to Beniamino Schiavon, 'Nino of the Drake',[14] the maître d'hôtel of the Drake Hotel. Schiavon was said to have created the dish with Luigi Quaglino, the co-founder of Quaglino's, at the Plage Restaurant in Ostend, Belgium, and named it after a "beauty of the nineteen-twenties"[15] or perhaps "a reigning lady of the European demimonde in the nineteen twenties".[16] At the Drake, it was called "Steak Nino".[17]
Other stories mention the Café de Paris in 1930's London and the Copacabana Palace Hotel in Rio de Janeiro.[8]
What do you think? --Macrakis (talk) 20:21, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Caterer & Hotelkeeper 179:53 (1988)
  2. ^ "Meo is brought to book at last", "The Times Diary/PHS", The Times, April 11, 1978, p. 16 (column 4, bottom)
  3. ^ The Atlantic Monthly, 159:274 (1937)
  4. ^ Louis Saulnier, Le Répertoire de la Cuisine, 1914
  5. ^ Larousse Gastronomique, 1st edition "Oeufs à la Diane", with purée of game; Bécasse (woodcock) à la Diane; etc.; Larousse Gastronomique, 2001 edition, p. 416; Sauce Diane, a sauce poivrade with cream, truffle, and hard-boiled egg white served with venison in Escoffier's Guide Culinaire (1907)
  6. ^ A.C. Hoff, ed., Steaks, Chops and Fancy Egg Dishes, International Cooking Library, International Publishing Co., 1914, p. 10, 20 full text
  7. ^ "Mayfair", "Heard here and There", Sydney Morning Herald, February 29, 1940, p. 19
  8. ^ a b c "1939 Steak Diane introduced to Australia", Jan O'Connell, A Timeline of Australian Food: from mutton to MasterChef, 2017, ISBN 1742235344, as quoted on the Australian food history timeline web site
  9. ^ "Former Host to Royalty Here to Manage Romano's", Daily Advertiser (Wagga Wagga), May 4, 1951, p. 1
  10. ^ John Fuller, Guéridon and Lamp Cookery: A Complete Guide to Side-table and Flambé Service, 1964, p. 69
  11. ^ a b Arthur Schwarts, "'21's Steak Diane", quoting from Arthur Schwartz, New York City Food: An Opinionated History and More Than 100 Legendary Recipes, 2008
  12. ^ Nickerson, Jane (January 25, 1953). "Steak Worthy of the Name". New York Times Magazine. p. 32. also quoted in Olver, Lynne (2000). "Steak Diane". The Food Timeline.
  13. ^ Cite error: The named reference koenig was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  14. ^ Cite error: The named reference franey was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  15. ^ "Beniamino Schiavon is Dead; Known as Mr. Nino of the Drake", New York Times, November 19, 1968, p. 47
  16. ^ Grace Glueck, "Hotel gives fête for its Maître D'", New York Times, October 26, 1967, p. 50
  17. ^ Stanley Turkel, Great American Hotel Architects, 2019, ISBN 1728306892, p. 311

To flambé or not to flambé[edit]

Not sure if this merits mention in the article, but here are extracts from an exchange in the correspondence columns of The Times

From William Shepherd, House of Commons, 23 July 1958, p. 9:
How long will it be before good-class restaurants in London cease the offensive practice of cooking meat actually in the dining room? … What can be more nauseating in a crowded restaurant on a hot day than to be assailed by the fumes of frying fat?
From Livio Borra, Maître Chef des Cuisines, Quaglino's, 26 July 1958, p. 7:
Mr. Shepherd writes under some misapprehension... Certain dishes of the haute cuisine must be cooked in front of the customer if he is to be served with them in perfect condition. An example is Steak Diane. This thin, delicate strip of meat could never survive if it were to be cooked in the kitchen and then served in the restaurant. Crêpes Suzettes is another example in which tableside cooking is essential to provide this delicacy at its point of perfection.

I mention the exchange here to illustrate that cooking Steak Diane at the table was the post-war practice at Quag's, where the dish seems to have originated twenty years or so earlier. But perhaps it would overload the article. – Tim riley talk 09:36, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, on the contrary. Being prepared tableside is a central feature of this dish from its origins, so it's good we have an explicit source for it, though it's pretty clearly implied by things like Calderoni "personally" cooking it for the Duke of Windsor. If Calderoni had been in the kitchen, no one would say that he "personally" cooked it. --Macrakis (talk) 15:53, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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