Talk:Theobald Walter, 1st Baron Butler

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title[edit]

The Dictionary of National Biography does not use the title, and refers to him as: Butler [Walter], Theobald The relevant passage is: ""A number of individuals may be traced in the Amounderness area named Pincerna or le Boteler, which was developing into a surname during the late twelfth century, and this complicates the issue of the origins and significance of Theobald's title. In charters relating to Ireland issued between 1201 and 1205 he himself used the style ‘pincerna Hiberniae' " (Butler of Ireland) . I therefore propose moving the article to reflect the DNB name, which would generally be considered much more authoritative than the "Complete peerage".

Oh, the Complete Peerage doesn't use the title either, for him or for his son. The WP article for his son uses the title, and the redlink inside the son's article used the "1st baron" title, and since I just used the redlink to create the article, being lazy as it were. Moving it is fine with me, I just wanted someone who is more familiar with the subject of Irish history to weigh in on the subject, and help build some consensus. And I'll admit, I was hoping someone else would help fill out the article! 15:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)Ealdgyth | Talk

Kingdom of Limerick[edit]

If Philip de Braose junior was granted Limerick in 1184, then how can Butler have also been granted it in 1185? Makes no sense. More accurate to say that Philip de Braose junior was given the western part of Thomand while Butler was given the eastern part of Thomond. The King of Limerick was a title that did not have much extent beyond the city. And that is why the Philip de Braose junior citation needs to be restored. Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

To overrule something from 1993, we need to consult something more recent than the old DNB for this information. Otway-Ruthven isn't the cutting edge of Irish scholarship, but it is about 90 years younger than the DNB. The current Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry for Philip states that he received Limerick in 1177, but was unable to take it. This is from the entry about Philip: "In 1177 he received a speculative grant of the kingdom of Limerick, the area of Thomond in north Munster. His attempt in that year to take possession failed after the citizens of Limerick, expecting the Anglo-Norman forces to storm the walls successfully, set the town on fire. The kingdom was to be granted to his nephew, William (III) de Briouze, lord of Bramber, by King John on 12 January 1201." Nothing in that contradicts the information in Otway-Ruthven about Theobald getting it in 1185. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
The article on Munster has the following: "By 1118 Munster had fractured into the Kingdom of Thomond under the O'Briens, the Kingdom of Desmond under the MacCarthy dynasty (Eóganachta), and the short-lived Kingdom of Ormond under the O'Kennedys (another Dál gCais sept).". It seems fairly obvious to me that the Butlers of Ormond were awarded Ormond. de Braose was awarded the other third (Thomond) while the Fitzgerald dynasty was awarded the final third (or part thereof). This is why the flag or Munster to this day bears three crowns. In Gaelic, the names of the kingdoms are is etymologically obvious: North Munster (Tho-Mond), East Munster (Oir-mond) and South Munster (Des-mond). Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:49, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
We need reliable sources for stuff we put into Wikipedia. When an old source like the DNB is contradicted by newer sources, we should go with the newer sources. I really don't care either way on the dispute, but we need to stick with what the reliable sources say. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:00, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Severe inaccuracies[edit]

The Irish king killed in 1185 was not Donal na Corra McCarthy but his father Dermot McCarthy. Donal na Corra lived for many years after this as king of Desmond and inflicted many defeats upon the English before being killed by his own people in a battle in southern county Cork. (Source, Annals of Innisfallen). You need to revise this, no wonder Wikipedia is mocked in most Academic Circles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.83.200.222 (talk) 21:55, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Barony[edit]

This looks like a feudal title at most not a peerage and this is not clear in this or the associated articles. We need substantive evidence.Garlicplanting (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't supported in the body of the article (nothing mentioned at all) so I've removed. As a side note, you should probably make sure you use the correct tag - you used a banner tag for the disputed section - which put the big banner right in the middle of the paragraph. Instead of {{disputed}} I think you wanted {{dubious}}. Just an FYI. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:41, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I didn't use it because "Add {Dubious} after a specific statement or alleged fact which is sourced but which nevertheless seems dubious". I can't see a source so it didn't seem to meet the definition. I can see it appeared where I hadn't intended. My doubts apply to each the sons and relations relating to the same 'barony' I have tagged some which don't seem to have messed up the text as they are in clear space. I'll see what else I can find or others can provide but the logical extension of this would be the page can't remain at Theobald Walter, 1st Baron Butler a form we only use for peers Garlicplanting (talk) 13:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)