Talk:Siege of Krujë (1467)

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:First Siege of Krujë (1450) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 09:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Siege of Krujë (1450) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 02:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Mahmud Pasha Angelović

This source explains that Ottoman forces chasing Skanderbeg were led by the Mahmud Pasha Angelović. I propose to add this information to the article. I think that this source could be useful for this article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Result

The reliability of sources must be considered when discussing the outcome of this siege. Notably, Mehmed II's retreat and Mahmud Pasha's inability to locate Skanderbeg in the mountains raise questions about whether this siege can be viewed as an Ottoman victory or even Inconclusive. It is evident that the Ottomans failed to achieve their objectives, while Skanderbeg succeeded in his. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 15:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Bro, is the Turkish army experiencing a troop loss? Is he being defeated? Mehmed voluntarily lifts the siege because the plague epidemic is spreading in his country and in the Balkans.The Turkish army does not attack and does not break the discipline of the Turkish army. The army is regularly withdrawing of its own accord. No source writes that the Turkish army was defeated. Keremmaarda (talk) 08:11, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

In the context of a siege, it's important to differentiate from conventional battles. In a siege, the besieged force faces a distinct set of challenges. The primary path to victory for the besieged force typically involves one of two scenarios: either the opposing force chooses to withdraw, effectively ending the siege, or the besieged force manages to fend off the siege by receiving reinforcements or launching counterattacks. Unlike traditional battles, sieges are protracted conflicts, where endurance and strategic maneuvering often play a more critical role in determining the outcome. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 14:11, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

But this is not enough to call an Albanian victory. Because Mehmed is lifting the siege because of the plague epidemic, not because of the Albanian resistance forces. And we are only dealing with the part that took place in this siege, not a general campaign. The castle is not under a serious siege, maybe Mehmed did not even lose any soldiers, likewise, the Albanian resistance forces did not lose any soldiers either. Period sources do not mention the loss of a soldier. But for the Albanians to be victorious, they must defeat the Turkish army and chase them chaotically. Or they have to force them to lift the siege by any different strategy (Just like Skanderbeg wrote fake letters at the siege of Kruje in 1450, forcing him to lift the siege.). But Mehmed himself is ending this siege because the plague has seriously spread throughout the Balkans and his country. So it would be more correct to call this war inconclusive because both sides cannot achieve anything. Keremmaarda (talk) 17:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

In the source i cited in the result clearly says "Mehmed II at Kruja again." So you saying it wasn't an Albanian victory just got proven wrong. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Mehmed II defeated at Kruja again* sorry for that Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 18:22, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Could it be that the event that is emphasized there is not taking the castle? Keremmaarda (talk) 18:43, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

The Ottomans sieged the entire city not just the castle Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 23:23, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

And I gave 2-3 sources that it was removed due to the plague epidemic. Keremmaarda (talk) 18:43, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Just like in the Siege of Ankara war. Timur besieged the Ankara castle in this war, but when he saw the main Ottoman army coming, he ended the siege and marched on the Ottoman army. As it is seen, Timur ends the siege of his own accord without being defeated, and the war passes without result. The same is true for this siege, the Turkish army is not defeated and the siege is lifted by Mehmed. Keremmaarda (talk) 18:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, as I can tell you guys are struggling to come to a consensus about this I thought im gonna provide a 3rd party option. Although yes the siege was ended because of the pleague in the Turkish camps, that still doesn't mean that it cant be labeld as an Albanian Victory. Simple. The Ottoman goal was to take the castle of Kruje and end the war. They failed. Sure, it wasn't because of the Albanians, but its still Albanian victory. Also the second point your trying to make is that the army wanted more to attack Skanderbeg than take Kruje itself, im still gonna argue againts it. Frsitly this is the SIEGE OF KRUJE the focus point of the article is the siege. Secondly, the main point of the expedition is the siege of Kruje as Mehmed send his general and several detatchemts at skanderbeg and venice. And thirdly, if his goal was to take down Skanderbegs army and not the siege, they still failed which would make this an Albanian victory. So im gonna have to say this is clearly an Albanian victory. Gertice4 (talk) 19:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Mehmed destroys the Albanian army in the Battle of Byshek during the expedition. 10,000 Albanian soldiers are killed in the presence of the Sultan alone. It shows that this expedition has achieved its purpose and divides Albania into 2 starboards after this expedition. It shows that this result was lifted because of the plague epidemic, "because of the epidemics" as you said the siege. The result cannot be an Albanian victory. It should be written that the siege was lifted due to inconclusive or the plague epidemic. Keremmaarda (talk) 20:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, the battle that you said happend was deemed not notable by an Admin that deleted your page and the claim of 10,000 dead Albanians is abusrd as the Albanian army at this time never really reached 10,000. Secondly, it doesnt matter why the siege ended really, the Ottoman objective was capture of Kruja which would lead to the collapse of the Albanian resistance. They failed in there objective, therefore it ended in an Albanian victory. I mean, if you mean Albanaian forces didnt lead to the retreat of the Ottomans (which again, doesnt really matter) I can argue that the garrison of the Fortress did, its not like the Ottomans didnt meet a single solider. Like, this really isnt that complicated, they failed so Albanians won, inconviniences like this (the plague) happen all the time. But if we wanna reach an agreement we can say that it was an Albanian Tactical Victory and undernath is explain that the Ottomans reatreaded due to plague. For example:

Albanian Tactical Victory

• Ottomans retreaded after plague epidemic

Gertice4 (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

The reality of the war was accepted by the admins, but it was removed because there was no significant war. And what tactical victory do the Albanians achieve in the war? Which tactic did he use to force the Ottoman army? The Turkish army withdrew of its own accord. Just like in the Siege of Ankara war. This is not a tactical victory but inconclusive. If we are to count this as a defeat, we must count that Timur was defeated in the siege of Ankara. Keremmaarda (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

No, the admins said it could've happened but there isn't enough sources to be for sure. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 23:31, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

The battle that you proposed was deleted on the bases that it wasnt notable enough. Yes, it was agreeded that it happend, but it was also stated that it wasnt notable enough. And to think a battle with 10,000 casulaties from one side isnt notable enough proves that the sources you gave for it were also deemed not reliable, as pointed out by a user on the deletion page of the article. Like dont try and fool anyone here with this argument about the Battle of Burshek, you lost this argument once. Secondly even if the batte did happen on the scale that you suggested it did, you shouldnt forget that this article doesnt talk about that single battle but the campaign of the siege of Kruje as a whole. Thirdly, lets look at what a tactical victory is. Wikipidia states that a Tactical Victory is "a victory that results in the completion of a tactical objective as part of an operation or a result in which the losses of the "defeated" outweigh those of the "victor" although the victorious force failed to meet its original objectives.". We will focus on the first part about my argument. So what was the tactical objective of the Albanian forces in this battle? Simply Survival (for Skanderbegs forces) and defending the castle (for the garrison). The garrison completed this objective and so did Skanderbeg (note: Skaderbeg throughout this campaign retreated and avoided facing the Ottoman forces directly thats why Survival is their objective), and beacuse Skanderbeg still had an army after the ottoman campaign in Kruja proves that they succeded in Surviving. (2nd Note: Wikipedia does state Survival as being a tactical objective.) Gertice4 (talk) 05:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, in your edit sumups you claim that "100,000 ottoman troops is too much and exaderated" but then do things like claim that Albanians had 10,000 casualties. Stop with the hypocricy and discuss like civil beings. Gertice4 (talk) 06:21, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Then the Siege of Ankara war must also be an Ottoman victory, right? Because the garrison survives. :D The survival of the garrison does not change anything, Mehmed voluntarily ends this siege. And Mehmed's army does not see any counterattack or resistance. Can you cite a source claiming that Mehmed's army lost soldiers in the Kruje fortress? I do not think so. The castle was not under a serious siege and due to the plague epidemic, the Ottoman army lifted the siege. Albanians have absolutely no success here. They neither build a tactical plan nor defeat the Ottoman army. And do you think the number 100 thousand and the number 10 thousand are one? in warAfter 1467, the Albanian resistance forces fall and become unable to resist. Where did Skanderbeg's 15,000 soldiers suddenly disappear? If Murad had lost a war with 100 thousand soldiers, the Ottoman state would not have been able to recover. It would enter the interregnum period like after the Ankara war. Keremmaarda (talk) 07:22, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Again, you kinda missing my point, but the Ankara example is a good one. Here is the difference between the two. In the siege of Ankara the Timurs initially sieged the city but after they heard that the Ottoman forces were arriving they repositioned themselvs to fight the battle. The difference here is that the Timurs left the siege to battle againts the turks, (the fighting continued) while in the siege of Kruja, after the Ottomans left they didnt return for another 11 years. Im gonna try to simplify it one more time but I kinda get your confusion. See this article basically talks about the last time Skanderbeg and isnt entierly focused on the siege itself. Beacuse of this, im arguing that the turks leaving for 11 years would be counted as an Albnaian victory as they defeded their last fortress. While after the siege of Ankara ended, the war continued, with the notable battle of Ankara happening. Thats my point. Also the Ottoman civil war happend beacuse Beyiazid was captured in battle and later died, and his 3 sons started the civil war, not nececeraly beacuse he lost the battle. As for your comment about the 15,000 soliders of Skanderbeg, noone knows what happend to them as the history between the 3rd and 4th sieges is vague, but to assume that 10,000 of them died in 1 battle that wasnt considerd notable by an admin is absurd, and you know it. Gertice4 (talk) 07:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Another simplification for the Ankara example. If the war againts the Timurs ended with the siege of Ankara then it would have been considerd an Ottoman victory, but it didnt end with it. Gertice4 (talk) 07:41, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

And in the siege of 1478, the fortress of Kruje surrenders. Again, Mehmed does not keep the castle under a serious siege. Keremmaarda (talk) 07:46, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

And Skanderbeg has a total army of 15,000 in total. The battle of Byshek was like a Mohac war for the Albanians, and all military means were used. So in 1478 Albania and Kruje fell without resistance because all army forces were exhausted. Keremmaarda (talk) 21:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

In the source I cited it clearly says "Mehmed II was defeated at Kruja" We can talk about how we can add the plague to the result but the result will stay Albanian victory. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 23:33, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Tactical Albanian victory

• The main army withdrew due to the plague epidemic.

If you arrange it like this, I will accept it. Keremmaarda (talk) 07:44, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I also accept this. Gertice4 (talk) 07:46, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

The reason why the result in that oage is Inconclusive is because the source that was used for the result, Strength and casualties wasn't from a Historian. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 23:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

page* sorry again for the typo Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 23:29, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Infobox "Result"

Please note that Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters states against "result" that "this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." The infobox has been amended to reflect this. Please read the template "result" guidance in full before amending or reverting. It would probably be best to discuss any proposed change here first to seek consensus. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Extension

Would it be appropriate to write this article in a broader and more comprehensive form under the name of the 1467 Albanian expedition? Keremmaarda (talk) 17:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree, to be honest. There is not enough information about the siege to write a separate article about it, also considering that there is more information about the raids in Durrës and Shkodër than the one in Krujë. Xhulianoo (talk) 10:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Reason for the Ottoman retreat

The Main Ottoman army retreated due to the outbreak of the plague epidemic which is why I think that should be included in the article. Semihas1234 (talk) 21:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

As per Template: Infobox military conflict - result – optional – this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive". If there is more to discuss, it can be included in the aftermath section or the battle section of the article. It’s usually protocol on Wikipedia to omit extra information from this section of the infobox.

Regardless of why they retreated, the Albanian side emerged victorious. If an army fails to successfully besiege a castle and retreats, then they were defeated as they did not achieve their objective. If the defenders manage to keep their castle, then they are victorious. As such, the results section of the infobox doesn’t need to contain anything other than “Albanian victory”. Botushali (talk) 00:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for this? Xhulianoo (talk) 12:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)