Talk:Muslim Student Union of the University of California, Irvine

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On 20 November 2020, it was proposed that this article be moved from Muslim Student Union to Muslim Student Union of the University of California, Irvine. The result of the discussion was moved.

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Comment[edit]

the reference to the Anti defamation league was removed, since the ADL is not justified in its opinion of a student group. Citing the ADL in reference to UCI student group seems contradictory.

Sorry, but this article must remain neutral. This is not a pro-MSU page. It is an article that should give a well rounded perspective on the MSU (both good and bad). With that being said, the ADL citation will be reinstated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.170.98.26 (talk) 02:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This page seems to be misnamed. It also seems to be incomplete as there are many MSU's around the country. Furthermore, it seems to be heavily slanted as a propoganda piece and downplays the politics of the group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.181.182 (talk) 07:39, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The page focuses solely on the MSU's political protests when that is one small aspect of the many different things that the campus organization does (See links below). It's also worth noting that most references are coming from very biased sources like the ADL and that only one account of the facts with regards to specific events is presented in the article.

Resources:

Other Perspectives on the Michael Oren Protest: http://www.asuci.uci.edu/legislative/legislations/print.php?cnum=R45-66 http://www.scribd.com/doc/34776677/Coalition-Letter-Support-UCI-MSU-For-Press-Release http://al-talib.org/2010/06/16/uci-msu-appeals-recommendation-to-suspend-msu http://standwiththeeleven.wordpress.com/

41.131.120.44 (talk) 07:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment[edit]

Just wow. The second half of this article is basically an attack piece on the MSU. Omgwhatiswrongwithyou (talk) 10:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How? It appears to be reporting what the RSs report, in balance in accord with how they report it.--Epeefleche (talk) 12:19, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unless a reasonable criticism of the article on NPOV grounds is made, I'll take down the NPOV tag within the next couple of days. --GHcool (talk) 18:00, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article used some unreliable sources, I have removed that. It also conflates Muslim student activities with MSU's activities. For example, there's no evidence that the MSU called for "State of Israel will be wiped off the face of the earth" from this article.

Finally the source is not quoted in balance, because it mentions Pipes saying "The Palestinians must have their will crushed..." Those are pretty strong remarks. Yet we only quote the anti-Pipes remarks, not Pipes' provocative speech that preceded. That makes the article POV.VR _talk 12:01, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(please respond to my objections on the forward quote here)

I don't think using audio sources is an appropriate source here on a living person. Can editors please provide a written source. A transcript of that program would be fine. In addition, if sources are provided to newspapers, please provide the corresponding link, so that they can be verified.VR _talk 20:41, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using audio sources that meet Wikipedia's reliable source guideline: "[A]udio ... and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable third-party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable source." --GHcool (talk) 00:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with GH.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:11, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GHCool - reverting my edits wholescale and calling them "censorship" is very unhelpful. You reverted several different edits, and didn't respond to my other concerns at all. For example, asking for a link to an article is not "censorship". Please edit more responsibly.

I haven't listened the broadcast yet (sound issues), but there's the problem usually of distinguishing voices and attributing statements to the correct person.VR _talk 02:49, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When you listen to the broadcast, you will note that there is no trouble distinguishing Chemerinsky's voice from the other two voices in the broadcast. The quote is in a response to a question asked by the host of the program directly to Prof. Chemerinsky. --GHcool (talk) 06:22, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Here you removed a blockquote statement by those who oppose the charges. But then you introduced a blockquote statement by those who support the charges. Why the double standards?VR _talk 18:08, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Please respond here to keep the discussions separate)

[2]. You said "removed uncited MSU claim and re-added headline". Which MSU claim are you removing? Yadoff himself says he's speaking in the capacity of a private citizen.VR _talk 18:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to the Forward source: You're welcome to put Pipes's comments, but not welcome to censor The Forward.

In regards to blockquotes: Blockquotes are to be used only when quotes span three or more lines of text. They are not applicable when they are only a brief sentence or two. This is the single standard. The ZOA quote is long enough to warrent blockquotes. The New University quote is not long enough to warrent blockquotes.

In regards to the complaints about the "Critics" section: The following statement is not supported by any citation, "The MSU claims that the event is aimed at Israeli foreign policy, and is being misconstrued as being Anti-Semitic as a ploy to stop any criticism of Israeli foreign policy." I have not heard a reasonable complaint against keeping the Yudoff headline. --GHcool (talk) 20:57, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What does the forward quote have to do with the MSU at Irvine? It may have to do with Pipes' speech, but not the MSU. This article is about the MSU.

The blockquote is a minor matter that we can discuss after the content issues are ironed out.

Regarding Yudoff, do you not agree that he is speaking in his person, and not as the president of anything?VR _talk 04:15, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Look: we're here on wikipedia to be productive. And I don't want to keep wasting my times on this article. So I'm open to some sort of reasonable compromise here.VR _talk 04:18, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Forward quote is about the Muslim protesters of Pipes' speech. It is most likely referring to the MSU, but since the article isn't 100% clear on this point, I'll accept its removal from this article.

Mark Yudoff was speaking as Mark Yudoff. The heading reflects the speaker's name. The heading does not refer to his official title. --GHcool (talk) 23:20, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, we'll keep Yudoff's heading, and Pipes out. I'll also let you phrase Yudoff the way you want so long as relevant parts of his quote are not omitted.VR _talk 00:42, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Several points remain.

The removal of the Asian Law Caucus material. Why?
Lumping material from the Netanyahu incident with those who opposed the criminal charges in general. The two groups of opposition are unconnected in terms of why the students shouldn't be charged. Hence they shouldn't be lumped.
Netanyahu incident should be given a brief introduction so readers know what its all about.
Removal of JVP statements that appear in the Jerusalem Post (a reliable publication).
Lumping the MPAC response (concerned more with Muslim welfare) with the Jewish responses (concerned more with what they see as injustice) is a bit awkward.

What are your positions on those?VR _talk 00:44, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure as to the reasons for the removals just now, as I don't see consensus here for them.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:03, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Asian Law Caucus material violates WP:Undue weight. Shall we include the opinion of every single unimportant, insignificant group that doesn't even have a page on Wikipedia?
The Netanyahu indecent is unacceptable for two reasons: (1) It has absolutely nothing to do with the MSU whatsoever and (2) it is nothing more than a summary of an unimportant editorial. Shall we summarize every editorial that mentions the MSU?
I don't mind if the views of JVP and MPAC are represented fairly in the current article in the same area as other groups' reactions to the charges. --GHcool (talk) 01:14, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not having a page on wikipedia is no test of notability. You say that the ALC is "insignificant" but haven't backed that up. I'd be open to shortening that statement, so that it'd satisfy your concerns of undue.
The Netanyahu incident has been cited by three different sources in their opposition.
Ok, so lets keep JVP's and MPAC's views, but lets not lump the MPAC with the JVP (but we can lump JVP with the Jewish Journal).
- Also what you wrote for the JVP is a misrepresentation. You wrote "Cecilie Surasky of Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) complained that JVP protesters did not get charged when they heckled Benjamin Netanyahu". I think we both know that the JVP would not want its own Jewish students to be charged. JVP is complaining that the Muslims students got charged while the Jewish students did not. Its the contrast that its complaining about really. Context is very important here.
Also lets keep this in chronological order. The Netanyahu comments are generally after all the other comments.

Hope you edit in the spirit of compromise.VR _talk 05:36, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind including the ALC as long as you don't mind any group that came out with a press release supporting the criminal charges.
There is no reason to have MPAC comment on exactly the same thing in a new paragraph that is one sentence long. Let's put sentences that are thematically related in the same paragraph. --GHcool (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fair.
Will also agree, but would like top provide a brief factual summary as to what happened with Netanyahu. So the reader doesn't think that this is a JVP story (which has disputed credibility).VR _talk 07:29, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted it. Its too long and has absolutely nothing to do with the MSU. The reader should think that this is a JVP story because that's exactly what it is. --GHcool (talk) 16:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Requested move 20 November 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Heart ^(talk) 16:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Muslim Student Union → Muslim Student Union of the University of California, Irvine – There are hundreds of organizations calling themselves the Muslim Student Union (MSU). There's even a different MSU at Stanford so even "Muslim Student Union of the University of California" isn't specific enough. ImTheIP (talk) 09:32, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support is this organisation notable? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support I believe that this (or something similar) used to be the name of this article many years ago. I don't remember why it was moved originally. --GHcool (talk) 21:25, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support it can be easily confused with something like Aligarh Muslim University Students' Union which is far more notable due to its members and presidents influence in the politics of the Indian subcontinent. GHcool, it was moved in 2015 [3] Roller26 (talk) 09:51, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Far-right[edit]

The Zionist Organization of America (ZOA) is not a far-right organization. It is right-wing, to be sure, but to call it "far-right" is to invoke comparisons with neo-Nazis and other loathsome trolls far outside of mainstream politics. Unless I hear a reasonable argument for the misleading adjective, I will remove it. --GHcool (talk) 05:31, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is fine by me (though have you seen Mort Klein's tweets lately?). I think it is fair to keep the "right-wing" label though since JVP is labeled "left-wing". ImTheIP (talk) 13:29, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My idea is also to move the Irvine 11 stuff into new article called "Irvine 11 controversy". Do you agree or disagree or do you have a suggestion for another name? ImTheIP (talk) 13:54, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind that so long as there is a short summary of the controversy on this main MSU page. The name "Irvine 11 controversy" seems fine to me. --GHcool (talk) 23:22, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Muslim Student Union" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Muslim Student Union. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 December 4#Muslim Student Union until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 04:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]