Template talk:Veganism and vegetarianism

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Restaurants[edit]

What are the criteria for including restaurants on this template? Not all seem especially noteworthy. I don't think that section is very relevant and should be perhaps removed. - AKeen 20:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Which ones do not appear to be noteworthy? The section is relevant to vegetarian cuisine and is appropriate. —Viriditas | Talk 21:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, certain vegetarian restaurants are clearly important - but theoretically, as it stands, any vegetarian restaurant could be included here. I see Chicago Diner as somewhat significant, or at least historic, to vegetarianism, whereas I see Maoz as a restaurant chain that just happens to be vegetarian. As more articles are created for vegetarian restaurants, inclusion criteria will have to be considered. - AKeen (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Freeganism[edit]

I took freeganism off because most of the freegans i know are not vegan, they aren't even vegetarian.

thanks you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.17.202.105 (talk) 20:52, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they aren't vegetarian, but they never collaborate with the animal exploitation so they are in part linked to veganism. Another fact is that "The word "freegan" is a portmanteau of "free" and "vegan"", so I see a strong connection and I think it would be in the template. Akhran (talk) 11:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Vegetarianism/Veganism activists[edit]

I think vegetarian/vegan activists should be included (Campbell, Robbins, and, though she is most famous for studying gorillas, Goodall.) All the best, Kayau (Talk to me! See what I've done! Sign my guestbook!) 10:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Diets[edit]

There should be a 'diets' section listing vegetarian diets and a seperate 'related diets' listing all the others, pescetarian etc. As it stands it is misleading. I can see that both 'Semi-vegetarianism' and 'Vegetarianism and religion' are highlighted but I don't think highlighting makes it clear enough that these are meant to be headings and that the following links are not related to the main heading on the left of the table. Muleattack (talk) 22:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Food and Drink[edit]

This section is ridiculous, where is the line drawn on whats included? This could end up listing hundreds of links. Muleattack (talk) 22:18, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I've removed brand name products from the list (shreese, tofurkey etc) and individual plant milks (soy milk, rice milk etc.) as these are covered by broader articles listed. Muleattack (talk) 22:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Lets's keep clear animal product substitutes like tofu and veggie sausage and leave out things that non-vegetarians eat everyday, because if you're going to include yogurt, bread and cake, then why aren't ice tea, jelly beans and potato salad on the list? The list of all food that does not contain meat is going to be near endless. Or better yet, delete that entire "food and drink" section if obvious finite non-controversial list can't be made. Ice cream, really? If you disagree, speak up, otherwise I might clean this section up. Sequel.sa (talk) 13:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I was thinking the same. Including things like bread seems odd. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 00:30, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Emerson[edit]

What is the source that Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau were vegetarians? Both were hunters. Thoreau's Walden includes a scene where he eats a woodchuck, I believe. A better choice would be Amos Bronson Alcott, who promoted a vegan lifestyle at Fruitlands. Either way, the main biographical article on these people should represent their vegetarianism (with a reliable source) before the template is added to their page. --Midnightdreary (talk) 10:56, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Mark Twain is on the list too? Egads! --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:01, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

People[edit]

I've taken the list of people back to doctors, academics and scientists who specifically write about veganism or vegetarianism. To add other writers would mean the list will get very long, and it'll be hard to decide who to include. So I removed a few names today of people who didn't fit in the doctor/scientist/academic category. I also removed Tom Regan. Although he's an academic and vegan, veganism is not his focus (except indirectly via animal rights), unlike Francione who does focus on it. Hope that's okay. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Well done. The list of people could get very long otherwise, per list of vegetarians and list of vegans. Nirvana2013 (talk) 10:10, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I've added another section for authors who write specifically on topics related to veganism which places limits yet allows other people to be included. -Classicfilms (talk) 16:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Scope needs expansion[edit]

People and films listed here work beyond the scope of Vegan, towards the term "Whole Foods, Plant-Based." One is Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D. who states in an NYT article:

"I don’t use the word “vegan” or “vegetarian.” I don’t like those words [....] The idea is that we should be consuming whole foods. We should not be relying on the idea that genes are determinants of our health. We should not be relying on the idea that nutrient supplementation is the way to get nutrition, because it’s not. I’m talking about whole, plant-based foods."

--Nutrition Advice From the China Study". The New York Times, January 7, 2011.

In terms of WP:NPOV, the vegan articles right now omit the fact that the group associated with Professor Campbell do not use the term vegan and choose Whole Foods, Plant Based. I'm not interested in getting into an edit war on this topic re: this article and related articles, but I do think that the Wikipedia needs to make this distinction, perhaps by making a separate article, something like Whole Foods, Plant-Based Diet. This would resolve the issue of making edits to other articles while maintaining WP: NPOV. -Classicfilms (talk) 16:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

It's nevertheless true that Campbell advocates a vegan diet. He didn't call himself a vegan because of the ethical aspects, not all of which he subscribes to, but he is still a dietary vegan. And he now does use the term "vegan" and "plant-based diet" interchangeably (see here, for example): "In addition to losing weight, a vegan diet will improve the health of those who consume it - cholesterol, blood pressure, cardiovascular risk and the risk of cancer are all lower in people who consume a plant-based diet."
The risk of having a separate article about a plant-based diet is that it will end up being a POV fork; a vegan diet is a plant-based diet. We do have articles about different kinds of plant-based diets, e.g. Whole foods. Perhaps you could expand that, rather than creating another one? It currently includes dairy products, but I'm not sure that it should. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:35, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm not attached to either creating a new article or expanding - either way is fine with me. However, I am perplexed by the statement that he advocates a vegan diet. He clearly states that he doesn't. In fact, in his writing, the term isn't used, because the scope of his work and those who work with him, have a different focus. The focus is on more than not eating meat or dairy but eating whole, unprocessed foods. The connotation is different and the Wikipedia is not reflecting this fact. A few people listed here and the film, Forks Over Knives do not use the term vegan - they all use variations of Whole Foods, Plant-Based which is different, something Campbell clearly states above. We get into WP:OR if we substitute one term for the other.
A solution is to go back to my idea for this template of adding the term Whole Foods, Plant Based to the categories. My suggestion for a new article with that term would avoid changing the Plant-based diet disamb. page which does not clearly cover it. --Classicfilms (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I quoted Campbell above using the terms "vegan" and "plant-based diet" interchangeably on his website. He doesn't (or didn't when I last checked) subscribe to ethical veganism, but he does advocate a vegan diet, and he does use that term. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:55, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I see now that that article I quoted from his website was written by someone else. Still, he does advocate a vegan diet and is hosting articles advocating it. I think what he's trying to do is promote the diet without the ethics/ideology, so that it spreads further and people are not put off by it. But lots of people are doing that and still using the term "vegan". SlimVirgin (talk) 18:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I must admit that as I was attempting to work on the disambig links in the article about Colin I became confused as how to go about making changes there because of his lack of commitment to either vegan or vegetarianism. So I just left it alone. It would make it easier to add another term as suggested above. Just my opinion of course. Anyone who would like to take a crack at the disambig link on his article that would be great too. You too can help. TattØØdẄaitre§ lĖTŝ tÅLĶ 01:59, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Ethics[edit]

I am wondering about the lack of strict non-violence being mentioned in the secular ethics section. Ahimsa, as I understand it, is not a religious thing, but a philosophical standing. Should it be moved from religious ethics to secular ethics? Perhaps links to western philosophers could also be added to the secular ethics section. Perhaps links to Peter Singer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.239.184.126 (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Added nonviolence. Nirvana2013 (talk) 07:27, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Category:Vegans[edit]

There's a discussion here about whether to delete this category, in case anyone wants to comment. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:12, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Is it time to split vegetarianism and veganism into two separate templates?[edit]

The template is getting too big and vegetarianism/veganism are really two different philosophies/lifestyles, so just as Watson did in 1944, is it time to make a split? Nirvana2013 (talk) 08:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not seeing how they are different, except for the people who follow the vegan philosophy in addition to the diet. After all, veganism is an aspect of vegetarianism. So, to me, and going strictly by the diets, saying that vegetarianism and veganism are not the same is like stating that ovo-lacto vegetarianism and vegetarianism are not the same. Both are vegetarianism, with one encompassing all vegetarian diets. And attempts to distinguish vegetarianism from veganism have gone on at the Veganism talk page, without much success because of definition aspects; see, for example, Talk:Veganism/Archive 7#Varieties of veganism. Flyer22 (talk) 10:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
They are pretty different, even if veganism is a subset of vegetarianism and many vegans were once ovo-lacto vegetarian. Dietary vegans believe dairy and eggs are unhealthy and can lead to disease (high in saturated fat and cholesterol; cause of breast/testicular cancer, osteoporosis, arthritis, obesity, diabetes, asthma etc.), whilst many vegetarians eat them daily. Ethical vegans believe dairy and eggs cause animal suffering. Nirvana2013 (talk) 06:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I've seen you around vegetarian topics for some time. I'm not sure if you recognize my username in that same regard, or don't think that you've ever seen my username before, but I'm a vegetarian and I regularly edit the Vegetarianism article. I'm aware of what some vegans think, which is why I pointed to that aforementioned discussion. While I will usually object to a person using vegetarian interchangeably with vegan, especially in the case of calling a vegetarian a vegan, that is only because not all vegetarians are vegans or because I know that the two are commonly distinguished among vegetarian and/or vegan groups/sources. However, all vegans are vegetarians, which is why veganism is an aspect/subset of vegetarianism. This is also why the lead of the Veganism article notes that dietary vegans are referred to as strict vegetarians and why the article later notes how the term veganism came about to describe strict vegetarians. Really, veganism, with or without regard to the vegan philosophy, is classified as strict vegetarianism by many reliable sources. All that stated: When taking into account semi-vegetarianism, it could be argued that not all subsets of vegetarianism are vegetarian; but then again, most reliable sources don't define semi-vegetarianism as vegetarianism anyway (whether we're talking about what the vegetarian diet is or are referring to the term semi-vegetarianism). Flyer22 (talk) 07:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Semi-vegetarianism[edit]

As seen with this edit, Randy Kryn removed Template:Veganism and vegetarianism from the Semi-vegetarianism article; and as seen with this edit, Randy Kryn removed semi-vegetarianism from Template:Veganism and vegetarianism. With both edits, Randy Kryn stated "not applicable", and I reverted asking Randy Kryn to explain how these matters are not applicable. I assume that Randy Kryn means that semi-vegetarianism is not actually vegetarianism. I argue that whether one believes it to be vegetarianism or not, the template belongs in the Semi-vegetarianism article and semi-vegetarianism belongs on the template because both are vegetarianism topics, which is why we discuss semi-vegetarianism in the Vegetarianism article. I argue that these templates are for readers who might want to look at other vegetarian topics and issues, whether it's vegetarian foods or the fact that many or most vegetarians despise semi-vegetarianism. Flyer22 (talk) 21:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Note: With this and this edit, respectively, I alerted editors of Talk:Vegetarianism and Talk:Veganism to this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 21:23, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • Hi. I thought I'd give it a try, and yes, imnho those pages have nothing to do with vegetarianism. Worth a discussion at least, but I won't keep at it or revert, just wanted to test the waters. To me a vegetarian doesn't eat any meat, and a vegan no animal products (I would like to be a vegan, but still eat Quorn products, which contain egg white, and you can catch me eating pancakes a few times a year. I'm a Semi-vegan, or a Pancakearian) (and Nan, can't help but eating Nan at Indian buffets). I don't despise semi-vegetarianism, it's just not a real vegetarian topic to me. Good to meet you, and keep up the great work. Randy Kryn 21:29 18 March, 2015 (UTC)
  • Support inclusion. Semi-vegetarianism, or as it is more popularly known, "flexitarianism", is on the continuum of vegetarianism, as is veganism. Therefore, not only should the template be included, but its name should be changed to simply "vegetarianism", since veganism is also on the continuum as "strict vegetarianism". The idea that there is some kind of separation between semi-vegetarianism, vegetarianism, and strict vegetarianism, is mistaken. Most strict vegetarians do not become vegans overnight, and those that do generally don't last very long. Lifelong vegetarians start as flexitarians, move slowly into vegetarianism, and become either semi-vegans or strict vegetarians. There are no artificial boundaries here, and by creating them, this becomes more of a religious discussion than a dietary one. So, in addition to including the template, I also support changing the template name to simply "vegetarianism". I fully realize that the hardcore vegans will refuse to accept this proposal, as they don't seem to understand the most basic aspects of how people become vegetarians and how they eat on a long-term basis. Viriditas (talk) 21:40, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I celebrate the day I went off meat every year, but not the day I stopped eating most meat. I recall them both, but only one is the real day I stopped eating "meat" and became a vegetarian, and that one I celebrate with either a great Indian buffet or with the best lentils and rice recipe you've ever imagined (I am a fine lentils and rice cook, blowing my own horn and patting myself on the back with one hand while holding a wooden spoon in the other). Vegetarianism doesn't seem like a continuum to me, at least one that includes eating meat. Can't understand other viewpoints on this one, and as I said, this was a one-time edit to test the waters, and must acknowledge that other people and editors see vegetarianism as somehow containing eating meat (to which I can only respond: huh?). Randy Kryn 21:43 18 March, 2015 (UTC)
Vegetarianism is a continuum, and this is proven through studies of how people begin by 1) limiting animal products, and the progress to 2) eliminating animal products. Again, this is not black and white, nor either or, this is a continuum, where people move up and down; very few stay on the right side of the continuum. You are free to treat this as a black and white, religious issue, but any cursory glance at the literature shows that it is not. The problem is that you see this as an animal abolitionist would: any form of meat eating (or animal use on the right side of the spectrum), according to you, eliminates vegetarianism. However, in the real world, the facts are quite different. Many potential, full-time vegetarians start out as semi-vegetarians. This means they have eliminated or reduced animal products from some aspect of their diet, but they have not yet moved to the right of the spectrum. There are good arguments showing this can have more of an impact than a minority of people practicing strict vegetarianism (veganism). You will not, however, ever recognize this fact, because this is a religious issue for you. Viriditas (talk) 21:58, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
To add on to Viriditas's point, I started out as a pescetarian (after being a general meat-eater until age 12). Flyer22 (talk) 22:03, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello Viriditas. Tis not a religious issue with me (huh?). I thought the word 'Vegetarian' means a person who doesn't eat meat. So if anything it's an issue of definition. Taking this logic, if I started a template on "Anne Hathaway" (and don't mind if I do) I might add "Eric Andre" with the reasoning that he's also an actor, and a chromosome or two away from being a woman, so he's almost Anne Hathaway. I doubt if he can sing like her though, so I might leave him off. But religious? And semi-vegetarian? Same as a semi-Anne Hathaway - it just isn't her. To Flyer22: I don't even know what a pescetarian is, and will look it up forthwith. EDIT: Ah, seafood. A complicated name for a pretty simple storyline. I used to like tuna, and just last week was wondering if one of these new vege companies will make a faux-tuna! Randy Kryn 23:14 18 March, 2015 (UTC)
I would have jumped right into full-on vegetarianism if I hadn't been told by different people (and a film that I don't know the name of) that fish and/or other seafood is not meat. Flyer22 (talk) 23:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, see Fasting and abstinence in the Roman Catholic Church for more contradictory information on how this idea gained hold in Catholic countries and communities. Apparently, if you ask for a vegetarian dish in some countries, such as Argentina, they bring you seafood. Viriditas (talk) 07:15, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
The common belief that fish is not meat and that eating fish is vegetarian (a belief aided by various dictionary definitions, among other sources) is why we have the matter addressed in the lead of the Vegetarianism article and lower in its Varieties section. Many people who have a plant-based/fish diet, even knowing of the term pescetarian, call themselves vegetarian...either because they don't consider fish (or other seafood) to be meat or because they think pescetarian is too much of a neologism while the term vegetarian is easily recognizable. Or it's for both reasons. Flyer22 (talk) 07:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Since it's only the three of us on a park bench (and thanks for all the fish!), and speaking of neologisms, can we change the word-that-few-know on the template to the name of the article, Semi-vegetarianism (odd writing that, like saying a foul ball over the wall is a semi-homerun in baseball)? If one purpose of its inclusion on the template is to give people the option of reading about the concept of starter-vegetarianism, we should at least give them a link which describes the concept and not a new word which they will likely not even notice. Thanks. Randy Kryn 10:48 19 March, 2015 (UTC)
Yes, regarding this, go for the clearer wording of semi-vegetarianism; we should point to the whole article instead of to a section of it anyway. Flyer22 (talk) 19:18, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Changed it, thanks, and you're right, to the full page and not a redirect to a section. Wonder if there are more entries for that section, as long as it's staying. Can't think of any offhand, but there must be some more, no? If only pancakearian were a real word. Randy Kryn 00:37 20 March, 2015 (UTC)
You're welcome, but I didn't add the discussion section head. Would write more but I've made myself hungry with all of this talk about food, so...two Quorn chicken sandwiches with Daiya cheese, relish, mustard, and blue corn chips on the side coming soon! Randy Kryn 21:47 18 March, 2015 (UTC)
I see that Viriditas added the heading; I was going to check in the edit history to make sure that my thanking you for the matter was correct, but you beat me to the reply on that. Flyer22 (talk) 22:00, 18 March 2015 (UTC)