Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of bridges to the Island of Montreal/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 19:13, 21 September 2009 [1].

List of bridges to the Island of Montreal[edit]

Nominator(s):  Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth, Peter Horn User talk
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I am nominating this for featured list because I believe the information is now complete, adequately sourced, and meets the criteria for featured lists. Some of the pictures may need to be replaced and/or updated.  Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 03:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I second the motion. Peter Horn User talk 14:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Should Peter Horn be considered a co-nominator for this FLC? Also, the images need alternative text; see WP:ALT (alt text is different from an image caption). Dabomb87 (talk) 22:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Peter Horn set the foundations for this article. I will fix the alt text tonight unless someone beats me to it. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 23:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Feel free to edit the text. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 03:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alt text is done; thanks. The alt text needs a bit of work, I'm afraid. Most of the proper names in the alt text fail the WP:ALT#Verifiability test and need to be removed. For example, a non-expert can't verify the alt text "Saint-Laurent Railway Bridge seen from under Mercier Bridge in LaSalle" merely by looking at the image. In a few cases there's text in the image that tells you the bridge's name and can be transcribed as per WP:ALT#Text, but other than that the alt text should just describe the visual appearance. The highway shields (e.g., Image:qc138.png) are all purely decorative and should therefore have link= instead of alt=text as per WP:ALT#Purely decorative images. The map's alt text is passable but could be improved; pretend you're trying to describe Montreal's layout (as given by that map) to someone over the phone (please see WP:ALT#Maps for examples). Eubulides (talk) 22:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added |link= where necessary. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I struck that part. Eubulides (talk) 01:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the alt text for the map. I would like some feedback on that before I do the rest. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 15:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The map alt text looks good; thanks. As advice for the rest of the images, alt text normally doesn't need to be that long; please see WP:ALT#Brevity. Eubulides (talk) 15:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've done the Saint Lawrence crossings. I'm trying to be as brief as possible, so I am assuming that readers are familiar with the different bridge types. As for the Lafontaine Tunnel, should I mention the twin towers in the background, given that those are merely air intakes for the tunnel? -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 15:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, brief is good. Your call on the twin towers. The alt text can't say they're air intakes due to WP:ALT#Verifiability, but it's certainly OK to mention the twin towers as they're clearly visible. Eubulides (talk) 16:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All done. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 16:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. However, the images' alt text entries have several WP:ALT#Verifiability problems as described above. For example, a non-expert can't tell that File:Mercier Bridge, Lasalle side.JPG is of the Mercier Bridge, so the alt text shouldn't say "Mercier Bridge". In general, the proper names should all be removed from the alt text (unless there's some text in the image identifying the bridge). Eubulides (talk) 19:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. I left the name on Lafontaine Tunnel, since the picture shows a road sign identifying it. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:56, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That should do it. Thanks for all the work. Eubulides (talk) 22:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The lead needs more references. Especially, the sentence "But because Montreal was built on an island surrounded by three rivers, land access must necessarily make use of a bridge." which sounds very much like original research.—Chris! ct 20:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • On this particular statement, I would invoke WP:NOTOR#Simple or direct deductions, since the information can be verified (and indeed noticed!) just by looking at a map. But it could be reworded, though. The rest would just be a matter of copying and pasting references found further down. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 20:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ok, that sounds reasonable.—Chris! ct 22:23, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, see below Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • The colors needed accompanying symbols (e.g. * ^ #).
  • Some of the notes need citations, such as "The Champlain Bridge Ice Structure, known in French as "l'Estacade Champlain," was built to control ice floes coming from the Laprairie Basin." and
  • The abbreviations need to be spelled out, at least on their first appearance. If you want, you can make a key. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, the reason why there are no citations on footnotes is that the Mediawiki software won't allow me to insert them. What I did was, I inserted the citations next to the footnotes, that is to say, wherever you see [#][note ­§], that means reference # is the source for note ­§ as well as the construction date itself. I tried it by modifying this revision. If you can propose a better solution, I'm open to it. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 16:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just give me some time to convert all footnotes to {{ref label}} templates. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 00:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • As for the symbols, just give me a day to decide which symbols, specifically, will be used. :-) -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good, with the caveat that I could not effectively check the foreign-language sources for reliability. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • What makes http://grandquebec.com/montreal-touristique/pont-jacques-cartier/ reliable?
  • All references that are in French need to be denoted as such.
  • Refs 6 and 7 need publishers; ref 9 needs a last access date. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:53, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • All fixed except for the GrandQuebec.com site. If there are reasonable doubts about the reliability of this site, alternate sources are plentiful wherever I used this one. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 17:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • For Champlain and Jacques-Cartier bridges, I could use the site of the Champlain and Jacques-Cartier Bridges Corporation, which is the same site already used for Mercier. For Victoria, I found this, this, and this. And that's just the first two pages of Google hits. :-) -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 22:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • All refs fixed. One added, which you missed. :-) -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 00:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional support With regard to formatting and prose, the article looks OK from my eyes (I also spot-checked a couple sources with the article and everything looked good). However, I would like the article to be reviewed by someone who is more knowledgeable about bridges, as well as a French speaker, before fully supporting. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Montreal Metro Tunnel doesn't seem to have a source. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With some digging (no pun intended), sources were not hard to find. Fixed. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 03:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • What happens if someone creates an article on the Viaduc Rosemont – Van Horne, or Wellington Bridge, or another bridge that lies wholly within Montreal? --NE2 04:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Those are not within the scope of this list, but they may be added to the See Also section - as a matter of fact, Wellington Bridge is already indirectly listed there, through Crossings of the Lachine Canal. Now I realize that a smart aleck might add the Metropolitan Expressway to List of longest bridges in the world, but the fact of the matter is, the Met (as it is known locally) does not cross any body of water. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 23:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Shouldn't the article be retitled to reflect the scope? --NE2 23:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • What would you suggest? -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 23:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I don't know, but it's not a list of all or even all notable bridges in Montreal. --NE2 00:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Per comments below, done. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 17:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Ruhrfisch comments This is interesting and generally well done, but I think it needs some work before it is ready for FL. It has been some time since I commented on a FLC, so I apologize if there are changes in criteria I am unaware of.

  • I agree that the name of the article is not accurate. Would something like "List of bridges and tunnels connecting the Island of Montreal with the mainland" work? Not sure if tunnels has to be in there as some lists that only have bridges in the title also include tunnels
  • Personally, I think that title is too long. Inaccurate too, since several of these bridges connect to Laval, which is on another island. I was thinking of "List of bridges to the Island of Montreal" (although technically, that would leave out Champlain Bridge, the most important entry of this list...). -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would be OK with that name (List of Bridges to the Island of Montreal). What do others think? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • That sounds fine, though I'm not sure if "Bridges" should be capitalized. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree it should be "List of bridges to the Island of Montreal" (sorry for the capitalization error before). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 00:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the article would be much clearer if a better map were used - the current map does not identify the bodies of water and refers to islands like Ile de Jesus as Laval. If someone is unfamiliar with the geography of Montreal, the current map does not help. Would this map File:Archipel Hochelaga.PNG be better? Or could File:Ile de Montreal.PNG have labels added?
  • Done without hesitation. And I think I will be making the change in every other article where the old map is used. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The references for the intro sections are inconsistent - the lead is fully cited, the "Spanning the Rivière des Prairies" intro is mostly cited (though the last sentence needs a ref), but the "Spanning the Saint Lawrence River and Saint Lawrence Seaway" and "Spanning the Lake of Two Mountains and the Ottawa River East Channel" introductions have no refs.
  • This would just be a matter of duplicating the refs found within the tables. I will take care of that as soon as I get a minute, and it might already be done by the time you read this. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any reason why the tables aren't sortable?
  • The split rows required to give the Communities linked column its current look are turning any attempt at sorting into a mess. See Help:Sorting#Limitations. Given the relatively low number of entries, I don't think we should be too concerned about sortability. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought it might be something like that, thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Name origins has several blanks that seem easy to fill - the Metro tunnels could all just list the Montreal Metro, and the railroad bridges could be named for the CN and CP railroads. The bridge under constuction could just say under construction.:*Actually, since these blanks reflect, in some way, the lack of an official name, I would leave them blank. "Canadian Pacific Rail Bridge," for example, could refer to hundreds of other bridges across Canada, and the one in Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue does not seem to have any other name, not even an unofficial one. None was ever mentioned in any history book I consulted. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmmm, is "Île Bigras railway crossing" really an official name? I ask because "Île Bigras" is given in the name column for it. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did act on this comment. The "Île Bigras" name was added only recently to the article, and I must admit it was in case someone would start an article on it (not likely, if you ask me!). -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why no coords for the tunnels?
  • This is just a verification issue. Perhaps including them, but with a lesser degree of precision, say only degrees and minutes, would be satisfactory. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would prefer that some coordinates be given for each entry, even if they are not as precise for tunnels. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why are Pont de la Concorde and Pont des Îles in one entry and not two separate entries?
  • Because for all practical purposes they are a single entity, with only a short fill separating them, and by any other standards there would probably be a single name to refer to both of them simultaneously. In fact, I made one a redirect to the other. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking at a map I would not call an island "fill". Could a note be added explaining that the Concordia Bridge connects Montreal to Ile Ste Helene and the Pont des Iles spans Ile Ste Helene and Ile Notre Dame (sorry for the lack of accents)? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, I was referring to what's on top of the island, which is in fact, for the most part, a large artificial fill all by itself. Looking at Google Earth, what I see on the island is the shadow of the bridge, and only the intersection with Chemin MacDonald is on solid ground. (Compare with Jacques Cartier Bridge, which, on that same island's natural part, uses a War of 1812 fort as a pillar, yet on both sides it bears the same name.) As for your suggestion, yes, that can be added to the footnote. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not speak French, but I know Canada is officially bilingual. As it is most bridges are listed by their English hame, while a few are listed by their French name. Would it make sense to list them all by their English name, then have the French name after in parenthhesis? So "Concordia Bridge (Pont de la Concorde)"?
  • The only two that are referred to by their French names are Pont de la Concorde and Pont des Îles. I wouldn't have a problem with replacing "Pont de la Concorde" with "Concorde Bridge," which already exists as a redirect. Optionally, "Pont des Îles" could be left out altogether, mentioned only in the footnote on Concorde. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Incidentally, for some reason, Ahuntsic Bridge is often referred to, on English radio traffic reports, as "Pont Viau." -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 22:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK I guess, although I do note that the Google Map of Montreal uses French names for some of the other bridges (but it is not too hard to figure out "Pont de X" is the same as "X Bridge"). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The bridge stuff looks fine to me (though I am not very familiar with Montreal). Could stubs be made for the red links (not required, just personal prefernce). I am leaning toward support, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:02, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have struck all of my comments (assuming the name is changed) and now support - well done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 00:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The move is done. -- Blanchardb -Me•MyEars•MyMouth- timed 17:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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