Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Beaujolais wine/1

Beaujolais wine[edit]

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Result: Endorse fail. There wasn't consensus on all aspects of the review, but there was consensus that quotations need to be cited directly after the quote. There were also encouraging remarks about the article. Per my own comments below (which amplify this closing statement), I suggest citing the quotations, brushing up the lead, and renominating. Geometry guy 21:09, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After User:VanTucky diligent review of Beaujolais wine, he saw fit to decline the article's GA nomination because I respectfully decline to "double cite" and add redundant footnotes to sections of the article. While I respect VanTucky's convictions, I do not see "redundancy" as a fitting characteristic of a Good Article nor a requirement in the GA criteria. As section 2B notes-

"(b) at minimum, provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons"

The items that VanTucky wished for inline cites for, are indeed cited with a footnote and when I first removed his "cite quote" tag I noted the the source for each. However, for the reader all they have to do is simply follow the claim to the first footnote right after and they will have their source. To comply with VanTucky's requirement, I would have to add a redundant footnote that would just be immediately repeated right after. That added redundancy for redundancy sake seems quite odd and ill fitting of good article status. However, as a compromise, I offered to add the redundant footnote as "hidden text" but I suppose that is not acceptable. As the majority contributor to the current version of Beaujolais wine, I have taken great pains to insure that every claim, every line and indeed every word in the article is attributed to a reliable source with a footnote nearby. Point to anything in the article and the first footnote that follows it will be the source, without fail. For the benefit of readability, I try to craft articles where an entire paragraph can be sourced to a single footnote. When "anti-inline cites" folk cry foul and tout the strawman argument that folks at GA and elsewhere want a footnote on every line, I often point to articles like this and Cabernet Sauvignon where an entire, well sourced and throughly verifiable article can be made without having a footnote on every line. I feel that these "unwritten rules" and requirements that VanTucky (and perhaps other GA reviewers) are adding in addition to the GA criteria (and the much maligned section 2b) create more unnecessary conflict with the GA project and content writers. It gives viability to the strawman argument that "every line must be cited" and that is unfortunate. Whether or not Beaujolais wine becomes a Good Article is not a primary concern of mine. But as a former GA reviewer and one who took a lot of blows and grief because of my ardent and staunch support for the in-line citation requirement (Take a browse through some of the GA archives like Wikipedia_talk:Good_articles/Archive_8#Criterion_2b_debacle), I do think a larger discussion will be worthwhile for the GA project. There needs to be a balance between wanting our Good Articles to be throughly referenced and verifiable (like Beaujolais wine is) and requiring redundant footnotes or the worse extreme of having a footnote on every line. I appreciate your time. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 19:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with User:VanTucky : If I am reading an article for information I do not want to remember or think about where the reference came from but to come across a statement and there beside it is the reference. I agree that care needs to be taken but IMHO in this case citequotes placed and the request for references were valid and an improvement on the article. Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 19:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well very little thinking or remembering is required. The very first footnote you see after anything and everything you read, is the source. Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 19:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So the whole of the introduction and the first ½ of the history is from reference one (1)? Accepting the consensus of WP:LEAD and the formula that " Because the lead will usually repeat information also in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source. There is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads"; there is a lot of disparate information that IMHO needs a reference even allowing for " The distance between material and its source is a matter of editorial judgment". Just my opinion and yes the fact that ...Beaujolais is a historical province and French wine producing region and ...wine generally made of the Gamay grape which has a thin skin and few tannins. Like most AOC wines they are not labeled varietally... to me as a unknowing but possible interested reader does need more than a reference. Even if it is the same ref it means that I can place the information with its source. Some facts could be referenced from other sources to provide the reader with more opportunities for follow up research. When we get to the second reference it is a historical quote from a person about wine. User:VanTucky concerns still stand for me, but I am only one and will listen to other opinions. Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 21:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So the whole of the introduction and the first ½ of the history is from reference one (1)? Yes. Though to be more pointed in my question (and really the purpose of GA criteria #2) Do you have doubts that Beaujolais wine is factually accurate and verifiable? The two items that VanTucky tagged as questionable, the Phillipe the Bold quote about the Gamay grape and the statement about the symbolism of the arrival of Beaujolais Nouveau are both sourced with a nearby footnote. In the case of the Gamay quote it is the very next line (currently footnote #2) and with Beaujolais nouveau it is a few lines after but there is only one footnote (currently footnote #8) for the entire paragraph which requires very little deduction or thought to comprehend that it sources the entire paragraph. One key point here is that the standard that is being requested is not to insure that the article is "factually accurate and verifiable"--it already is with 66 footnotes but rather to add two redundant footnotes that will just be immediately followed by the exact same footnote. Are there any doubts that Phillipe the Bold said his statement about the Gamay grape or that Hugh Johnson's Vintage book, with its footnote on the very next line after quoting his grandson, sources that quote? Are there any doubts about Beaujolais Nouveau being seen as a celebration of the harvest or that Karen MacNeil's The Wine Bible, which sources the entire paragraph, backs up that assertion? Agne ^Cheese/^Wine 22:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

apologies if I did not make myself clear, in no way am I questioning the validity of your references. The article has valid supportive references; my point was that there was not enough of them (re: Some facts could be referenced from other sources to provide the reader with more opportunities for follow up research); and I do not, as a reader, have a problem with references being repeated, I can work out the same ref number means the same source etc. Sorry I still agree with Van Tucky, why not see what it looks like in a sandbox and then put it up again if you are happy. Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 18:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail as reviewer. The guideline WP:CITE clearly states:
You should always add a citation when quoting published material, and the citation should be placed directly after (or just before) the quotation [emphasis added]
Clearly, it supports my assertion that basic citation standards in GA-class articles should cite whenever a quote appears, and the cite should come directly after the punctuation. Not once in a paragraph, or once every couple sentences. Always. I'd thought this was an uncontroversial standard, and am actually quite surprised at the opposition to the idea of simply duplicating an inline citation twice in an article. It can certainly do no harm, even if you think it isn't vital. VanTucky 03:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail Criterion 2A links directly to WP:CITE; it doesn’t get much more explicit than that. Although it’s unfortunate that an alternative solution was not reached, VT did identify a legitimate concern supported by the GA criteria, which the nominator declined to remedy. Additional criteria-related concerns -- offered only to assist improving the article -- include a lead that does not seem to adequately summarize the most important points (WP:LEAD), grammar issues (e.g. comma usage – “cultivated by the Romans who planted” should be “cultivated by the Romans, who planted”) and MoS issues (e.g. image captions should not end with a period if they are not complete sentences). ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 19:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral - since I'm the one who did the GAN I'm of course not trying to "vote" here. However, I would like to point out that VanTucky failed the article less than one day after announcing on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wine that it had been put on hold for improvments, with the words "The requested changes are relatively minor; please feel free to pitch in". He apparently failed it because Agne (who is not exactly the only editor around, although one of the most active in WP:WINE) and he didn't agree. As someone who has participated quite a lot in GA/FA reviews in another language version, this behaviour seems extremely strange to me. I get the impression (although I hope I'm wrong) of a personal dispute handled in a less than professional manner by the reviewer, with the result that the "fail" stamp was applied very much prematurely. This is the reason why we're discussing citing specifics here - other more or less active editors interested in contributing to the article never got much of a chance to work things out the regular way. Tomas e (talk) 11:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how my actions are out of the norm for reviewers. Nowhere in any guide to reviewing does it require that reviewers even place a talk page notice on the relevant wikiprojects; I did this as a pure courtesy. In deciding whether to pass or fail an article, I can only work with those interested in working on the nomination and getting it passed, so if no one but Agne responded then there's nothing I can do about it. Since this user was the only one participating in improvements, and he blankly refused to enact necessary changes after discussion, then all I could do was fail it. VanTucky 20:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail, per Elcobbola -- with regrets. Majoreditor (talk) 03:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse fail. Needs more references, and especially with page numbers.--andreasegde (talk) 15:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
List as GA The references are easy to follow, even for citations, and the page ranges are narrow enough that I'm sure it is easy to check without much trouble if you have the books. Narayanese (talk) 21:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List as GA per comments made by Naryanese. --Doopdoop (talk) 14:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail, albeit reluctantly. I think Van Tucky's review was completely in line with WP:WIAGA, his objections re referencing addressed criteria that are neither optional or subjective, and he was left with little choice in the matter when his comments were not addressed. It's a shame, because I found the article to be a well-researched, fascinating read - but we must make it as easy as possible for readers to verify the assertions made. I would say that with such large amounts of text apparently covered by a single end-of-section cite, at the very least page numbers need to be included in there somewhere (perhaps the Footnotes should be split into Notes and References, and {{harvnb}} or something similar used for the in-line cites). Also, as has been mentioned, the lead does not comply with WP:LEAD (again, a GA criterion). EyeSerene^talk 20:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. My view is that while page numbers are desirable, especially when a lot of the material comes from a large book (if I remember rightly), they are not a GA requirement. Nor are the finer points of MoS. Issues such as per sentence citation when several sentences come from the same source, and citations in the lead, these are matters of taste and opinion, subject to certain minimum standards, and other than that I don't believe them to be GA requirements. However, one of these minimum requirements is providing a citation directly after a quotation. I think there are only two or three examples where a quotation is not followed immediately by its source, so this would only add two or three "redundant" footnotes. I suggest doing that, giving the lead a bit of a brush-up, and renominating.

I'll close this discussion as "endorse fail", unless anyone objects or beats me to it. Geometry guy 16:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]