Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 July 3
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July 3[edit]
English grammar question[edit]
Which of the following sentences is correct and why?
- The school requested that the student resubmit the application as soon as possible.
- The school requested that the student resubmits the application as soon as possible.
I believe it's sentence one, but was unable to explain why "resubmits" might be incorrect. I also understand that there are probably better ways to ask such a question, but I am curious to know whether (or how) the use of "that" affects subject-verb number agreement. -- Marchjuly (talk) 11:15, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- This looks to me to be an example of the use of the subjunctive. 79.73.134.123 (talk) 12:10, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Marchjuly -- (1) would be correct in the United States (where it's one of the last living vestiges of the historic verb subjunctive), but might be less common in the UK... AnonMoos (talk) 12:21, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- It's fine in the UK. Bazza (talk) 12:32, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- See English subjunctive Wymspen (talk) 14:25, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks to everyone who replied and for the links. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:56, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- I find (2) quite jarring; it's one of my peeves. Version (1) is correct everywhere, though it might seem a little posh in the UK. --Trovatore (talk) 08:22, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- Traditional UK usage is not to use the 'bare' subjunctive in sentences like this; I would write 'The school requested that the student should resubmit the application as soon as possible.' AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:30, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- I find (2) quite jarring; it's one of my peeves. Version (1) is correct everywhere, though it might seem a little posh in the UK. --Trovatore (talk) 08:22, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks to everyone who replied and for the links. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:56, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Both are grammatical. ("Correct" is an oddly schoolmarmish term. And a schoolmarm can be of either sex.) The first is common in the US. It became old-fashioned and stilted in Britain, but recently has again become commonly used there. (The latter trend is a staple of descriptions of recent changes in English grammar.) The second, which Huddleston and Pullum call the covert mandative, is common in Britain but unusual in the US. Depending on your lect, you may also have the third option pointed out by AndrewWTaylor above. -- Hoary (talk) 08:40, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
(with "-ed" ending)[edit]
- In the US, yet not in the UK, one may also say: "The school suggested that the student resubmitted the application as soon as possible". However, "resubmit" is more common than "resubmitted" in this context. HOTmag (talk) 12:13, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, HOTmag, you are quite wrong. "Resubmitted" is not at all acceptable in the US. I get annoyed with your pronouncements on US usage and pronunciation; you tend to speak quite confidently, and you obviously do not have sufficient basis for such confidence, given how often you get things blatantly wrong. --Trovatore (talk) 20:43, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- Pronunciation? Often get things blatantly wrong? I don't know what you are talking about. Unless you're referring to the discussion we had some months ago, but as far as I remember, you finally decided to strike out similar comments about me, after you admitted you had maybe "overreacted a little bit".
- Anyways, your anger with me about the use of "resubmitted", should not be greater than your anger with Wikipedia about the use of "requested" in our articles: Toronto maple leafs, Tony Greig, List of women in the Bible, Principality of Iberia, Sasanian Iberia, Miguel Enríquez (privateer), Maaveeran Kittu, Ahmed-Al-Kabeer. HOTmag (talk) 16:31, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- People make errors. The usage you claim "one may say" is an error and is not available in correct American English. Please quit presenting yourself as a reliable commentator on American English, which you are not. --Trovatore (talk) 18:38, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- You're asking me to quit presenting what? Yes, people make errors, but this is not the case... HOTmag (talk) 20:00, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Using "resubmitted" in that sentence, intending the meaning under discussion, is absolutely an error in American English. You are not a native speaker of American English and you should not speak as though you had a native speaker's intuition for it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:59, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- I've never been to the US. True. However, again, you ascribe to me what I've not said. I didn't refer to the usual context of "requested" (i.e. the context under discussion), but rather to the usual context of "suggested" (i.e. not under discussion). That's why I wrote "suggested" (despite the fact that the OP had written "requested"). HOTmag (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- They are equally wrong, if you meant "suggested" in the sense of making a polite recommendation. It's true that "suggested" could be correct if you meant it in the sense that the school asserted (but not forcefully) that the resubmission was what had in point of fact happened. But there was nothing to indicate that that was what you meant. And if you did mean that, then it would be clearer to use the past perfect in the subordinate clause: The school suggested that the student had resubmitted the application as soon as possible. I really sort of doubt that that's what you meant. --Trovatore (talk) 09:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, I didn't mean that the school asserted (but not forcefully) that the resubmission was what had in point of fact happened. I meant that: 1. The school suggested that he should resubmit, and: 2. The resubmission was what really happened afterwards (this is not what the school asserted but rather what we can understand from the word "resubmitted"). For more details, see my comment below, regarding "the doctor suggested that he stopped smoking". HOTmag (talk) 11:28, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- They are equally wrong, if you meant "suggested" in the sense of making a polite recommendation. It's true that "suggested" could be correct if you meant it in the sense that the school asserted (but not forcefully) that the resubmission was what had in point of fact happened. But there was nothing to indicate that that was what you meant. And if you did mean that, then it would be clearer to use the past perfect in the subordinate clause: The school suggested that the student had resubmitted the application as soon as possible. I really sort of doubt that that's what you meant. --Trovatore (talk) 09:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- I've never been to the US. True. However, again, you ascribe to me what I've not said. I didn't refer to the usual context of "requested" (i.e. the context under discussion), but rather to the usual context of "suggested" (i.e. not under discussion). That's why I wrote "suggested" (despite the fact that the OP had written "requested"). HOTmag (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Using "resubmitted" in that sentence, intending the meaning under discussion, is absolutely an error in American English. You are not a native speaker of American English and you should not speak as though you had a native speaker's intuition for it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:59, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- You're asking me to quit presenting what? Yes, people make errors, but this is not the case... HOTmag (talk) 20:00, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- People make errors. The usage you claim "one may say" is an error and is not available in correct American English. Please quit presenting yourself as a reliable commentator on American English, which you are not. --Trovatore (talk) 18:38, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- HOTmag is absolutely wrong, even in NZE. Akld guy (talk) 22:49, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, HOTmag, you are quite wrong. "Resubmitted" is not at all acceptable in the US. I get annoyed with your pronouncements on US usage and pronunciation; you tend to speak quite confidently, and you obviously do not have sufficient basis for such confidence, given how often you get things blatantly wrong. --Trovatore (talk) 20:43, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- Number 2 is about as civilized as "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the hose again." μηδείς (talk) 17:59, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- HOTmag (who is apparently a seventeen year - old girl living in either Amsterdam or Tel Aviv) actually did provide a correct sentence, but with a different meaning. "The school suggested that the student resubmitted the application as soon as possible" implies that the script was rejected and at the first opportunity the student handed it back in having made the necessary corrections. 195.191.67.226 (talk) 18:49, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Ah, true, I missed the fact that it's a grammatical sentence when "suggested" is understood to mean "made a weak assertion" rather than "made a gentle request". --Trovatore (talk) 19:01, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, it is grammatical in the context offered by 195.191.67.226. It is most definitely NOT grammatical in the original context, not in any variety of English I know or have ever heard of. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:06, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, not in the original context of "requested". That's why I wrote "suggested", that is used in a (usual) context other than that of "requested". Check: "The doctor suggested that he stopped smoking". HOTmag (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Again, that sentence is completely incorrect in American English. Unless, again, you mean to say that the doctor asserted obliquely that he had in fact stopped smoking. But that's an unlikely interpretation. --Trovatore (talk) 09:45, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- After the website English Grammar provided both options, i.e. the subjunctive form: "The doctor suggested that he stop smoking", and the past form: "The doctor suggested that he stopped smoking", it also points out: "In American English, subjunctive structures are more common after suggest". This corresponds to what I've written in my first post: "However, resubmit is more common than resubmitted in this context". HOTmag (talk) 11:28, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- That website is incorrect. That usage does exist but is an error. You should not use it if you want people to take you seriously. --Trovatore (talk) 19:06, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- You are allowed to disagree with that website, but next time please don't say that I rely on my own "intuition" (as you call it). As for your recommendation: Don't worry, I've never used the Past tense after "suggested", although I've come across this usage (e.g. in Australia, where I visited a year ago). HOTmag (talk) 07:52, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think the website was making a distinction between a subjunctive use and a past tense use. That's a valid distinction, and "resubmitted" would clearly work in the past tense case. But the point that User:HOTmag seems to miss is that the context provided by the OP is about the subjunctive only, and any examples of past tense usage here are irrelevant, misleading, inaccurate, confused, erroneous, inappropriate and mistaken. In a word, wrong. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:24, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- As opposed to what you claim, the sentence provided by the OP is not about the Subjunctive only. Please notice that they have provided two options, one of which is the Subjunctive, the other one being the Present tense, so I added also the Past tense as a third option. Further, I have already pointed out that I hadn't been referring to the context referred to by the OP. For more details, see my previous response to your previous response. HOTmag (talk) 07:43, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- See, this is where your wrong-headedness comes into its own. The two sentences are both in the subjunctive; the difference is that the first uses the subjunctive correctly, while the second does not. The exercise is clearly intended to separate (a) those who can recognise where the subjunctive is called for and know what form the relevant verb should take, from (b) those who fail these tests. Just because the 2nd sentence (mis)uses the present tense form of the verb, does not make it a valid use or example of the present tense. The entirety of your disquisition, including the introduction of the grossly wrong "submitted", stems from this fundamental misunderstanding of what the question is about. Please don't continue to defend the indefensible. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 10:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Again you misinterpret me. Have I ever claimed that the Present tense is grammatical in the OP's context? I've only claimed that they provided two options: Subjunctive and Present tense, didn't they? Please answer me: Didn't they? Isn't "resubmits" in the Present tense? Please notice that I haven't referred to the controversy between you and User:Hoary about whether the second option provided by the OP is valid. Anyway, I've added a third option, i.e. the Past tense, and I've also claimed it's grammatical in the "suggested" context (yet not in the OP's context). As for your last request: I think everybody is allowed to continue to defend their original position, even after another position they have never adopted was mistakenly ascribed to them. HOTmag (talk) 11:11, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, it is not the present tense, at least not the simple present tense. It is identical in form to the present tense, but that's as far as it goes. When a word is misused, it's sort of meaningless to take the word in isolation and parse it. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 12:56, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- In your previous response, you claimed that "the 2nd sentence (mis)uses the present tense form of the verb ", i.e. the tense the OP has (mis)used by (mis)using "resubmits" is the Present tense, so how can you claim now that "it is not the present tense "?
- Further, If you claim now that the tense the OP has (mis)used by (mis)using "resubmits" is not the Present tense, then we probably disagree about a more general fundamental question, having nothing to do with English grammar per se; The question is, whether the words "will go " in the sentence "Yesterday, I will go to sleep" are in the Past tense or the Future tense. I claim that the words "will go " in that sentence are in the Future tense, while you (probably) disagree with me.
- This new controversy between us is legitimate (I'm sure we will overcome it though), but I'm still allowed to defend my original position, that is as follows: Besides both options provided by the OP (whether both of them are grammatical as User:Hoary claims or one of them was misused by the OP as you claim), there is a third option, being the Past form, and this option is grammatical in the "suggested" context (yet not in the OP's context). That's what I've been claiming since the very beginning of our discussion, and I wonder why you continue to misinterpret me. HOTmag (talk) 13:37, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- He's not misinterpreting you. And you, being a non-native English speaker, are in no position to lecture others on the finer points of English grammar. --Viennese Waltz 14:27, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- This is the third time in recent months, that I can't understand the motivation for your personal attacks against me. BTW, in the first case, you thought I'd been wrong because of a typo (I'd mistakenly written "I've just meant" instead of "I've just read", and I'm still waiting for your response to my clarification ibid.). In the second case, you thought I'd been wrong because I'd said "it doesn't", i.e. "the rule doesn't have (any) exceptions", while you as a Brit say "the rule hasn't (any) exceptions", so you thought I'd been wrong, but I'm not a Brit. Sorry. HOTmag (talk) 16:12, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- He's not misinterpreting you. And you, being a non-native English speaker, are in no position to lecture others on the finer points of English grammar. --Viennese Waltz 14:27, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, it is not the present tense, at least not the simple present tense. It is identical in form to the present tense, but that's as far as it goes. When a word is misused, it's sort of meaningless to take the word in isolation and parse it. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 12:56, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Again you misinterpret me. Have I ever claimed that the Present tense is grammatical in the OP's context? I've only claimed that they provided two options: Subjunctive and Present tense, didn't they? Please answer me: Didn't they? Isn't "resubmits" in the Present tense? Please notice that I haven't referred to the controversy between you and User:Hoary about whether the second option provided by the OP is valid. Anyway, I've added a third option, i.e. the Past tense, and I've also claimed it's grammatical in the "suggested" context (yet not in the OP's context). As for your last request: I think everybody is allowed to continue to defend their original position, even after another position they have never adopted was mistakenly ascribed to them. HOTmag (talk) 11:11, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- See, this is where your wrong-headedness comes into its own. The two sentences are both in the subjunctive; the difference is that the first uses the subjunctive correctly, while the second does not. The exercise is clearly intended to separate (a) those who can recognise where the subjunctive is called for and know what form the relevant verb should take, from (b) those who fail these tests. Just because the 2nd sentence (mis)uses the present tense form of the verb, does not make it a valid use or example of the present tense. The entirety of your disquisition, including the introduction of the grossly wrong "submitted", stems from this fundamental misunderstanding of what the question is about. Please don't continue to defend the indefensible. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 10:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- As opposed to what you claim, the sentence provided by the OP is not about the Subjunctive only. Please notice that they have provided two options, one of which is the Subjunctive, the other one being the Present tense, so I added also the Past tense as a third option. Further, I have already pointed out that I hadn't been referring to the context referred to by the OP. For more details, see my previous response to your previous response. HOTmag (talk) 07:43, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- That website is incorrect. That usage does exist but is an error. You should not use it if you want people to take you seriously. --Trovatore (talk) 19:06, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- After the website English Grammar provided both options, i.e. the subjunctive form: "The doctor suggested that he stop smoking", and the past form: "The doctor suggested that he stopped smoking", it also points out: "In American English, subjunctive structures are more common after suggest". This corresponds to what I've written in my first post: "However, resubmit is more common than resubmitted in this context". HOTmag (talk) 11:28, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Again, that sentence is completely incorrect in American English. Unless, again, you mean to say that the doctor asserted obliquely that he had in fact stopped smoking. But that's an unlikely interpretation. --Trovatore (talk) 09:45, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, not in the original context of "requested". That's why I wrote "suggested", that is used in a (usual) context other than that of "requested". Check: "The doctor suggested that he stopped smoking". HOTmag (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, it is grammatical in the context offered by 195.191.67.226. It is most definitely NOT grammatical in the original context, not in any variety of English I know or have ever heard of. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:06, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- Ah, true, I missed the fact that it's a grammatical sentence when "suggested" is understood to mean "made a weak assertion" rather than "made a gentle request". --Trovatore (talk) 19:01, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- HOTmag (who is apparently a seventeen year - old girl living in either Amsterdam or Tel Aviv) actually did provide a correct sentence, but with a different meaning. "The school suggested that the student resubmitted the application as soon as possible" implies that the script was rejected and at the first opportunity the student handed it back in having made the necessary corrections. 195.191.67.226 (talk) 18:49, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
"Yesterday, I will go to sleep". You're not seriously suggesting that that is a valid sentence in English are you? Why would you use a grammatically incorrect sentence like that to make a point? Akld guy (talk) 20:07, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- Well, it's a grammatically correct but semantically nonsensical sentence, in the same vein as Colorless green ideas sleep furiously. It's impossible to be categorical about the tense of the verb. Or even whether there is a verb. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:48, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- I can't see that the 'Yesterday' sentence is grammatically correct. '[W]ill go' is incompatible with the qualifier 'yesterday', so the tense is wrong. Akld guy (talk) 02:42, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- The answer to the question "When will I go to sleep?" is "Yesterday". That doesn't violate any of the rules of grammar per se, but it certainly violates semantic comprehensibility. The same is true of "The sound of one hand clapping". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 04:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Surely a tense violation is a violation of grammar. But I sense that we're not going to see eye to eye on this. Akld guy (talk) 04:56, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'm going with Jack on this one. "I will go to sleep yesterday" is a physical impossibility (as far as anyone knows) but not a logical one. If you had a time machine, it might make perfect sense. Perhaps time machines cannot exist, but that does not enter into syntactic analysis.
- (Actually, I suppose not even logical impossibility is a bar to a sentence being grammatical, and in fact people regularly make assertions that are, strictly speaking, logically impossible; the listener applies pragmatics to figure out what is meant.) --Trovatore (talk) 05:02, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Surely a tense violation is a violation of grammar. But I sense that we're not going to see eye to eye on this. Akld guy (talk) 04:56, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- The answer to the question "When will I go to sleep?" is "Yesterday". That doesn't violate any of the rules of grammar per se, but it certainly violates semantic comprehensibility. The same is true of "The sound of one hand clapping". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 04:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- I can't see that the 'Yesterday' sentence is grammatically correct. '[W]ill go' is incompatible with the qualifier 'yesterday', so the tense is wrong. Akld guy (talk) 02:42, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- @Akld guy, I used the sentence "Yesterday, I will go to sleep", because it's parallel/analogous to the OP's sentence "The school requested that the student resubmits the application as soon as possible". Jack of Oz claimed that the OP had misused the word "resubmits" where they should have used the subjunctive "resubmit", so I provided a parallel sentence: "Yesterday I will go to sleep", that misuses the words "will go" where it should have used the Past tense "went". I also claimed, that just as the words "will go" in that sentence are in the Future tense (although "went" in the Past tense is expected), so the word "resubmits" in the OP's sentence is in the Present Simple tense (although the subjunctive "resubmit" is expected, in Jack's opinion, as opposed to Hoary's opinion). I had to make it clear, by giving an analogous sentence (the "will go" sentence), because Jack seemed to claim that the "resubmits" in the OP's sentence was not in the Present Simple tense, so I asked Jack if he also thought that the words "will go" in the analogous sentence were not in the Future tense. He answered that "It's impossible to be categorical about the tense of the verb". Anyways, this is a new controversy between Jack and me, having nothing to do with my original position about the third option "resubmitted" in the "suggested" context. HOTmag (talk) 08:11, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Given the sentence "Yesterday, I will go to sleep" in isolation from any context - which is is what we have here - we do not know whether it should read "Tomorrow/tonight, I will go to sleep" or "Yesterday, I went to sleep". So, yes, I maintain it is impossible to be categorical about the tense of the verb in this situation. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:30, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Literature: English/from England[edit]
What are the standard academic terms to express yourself unambiguously when talking about the literature of the English language or the literature of England? --Hofhof (talk) 17:16, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- When I was studying English literature at my American university, we had no term for specifically British literature, because historically, English writers such as Shakespeare, Robert Burns, John Milton, John Keats, John Donne, William Wordsworth, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Lord Byron, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Charles Dickens, Robert Louis Stevenson, Robert Browning, Alfred Lord Tennyson, and Chaucer (as well as great American writers such as Nathaniel Hawthorne, Herman Melville, Samuel Langhorne Clemens, T. S. Eliot, William Faulkner, and John Steinbeck), have always been considered part of our own (American) English-language heritage. There are, of course, specialized courses and lines of study in strictly American literature, but that sort of thing is usually left for graduate school courses, for students earning their Master's or Doctorate degrees. I don't think I've ever heard of strictly British literature. —Stephen (talk) 20:03, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- The OP doesn't ask about British literature, a term which is relatively unambiguous. Scottish literature is a clear field in a way that English literature isn't. I don't know what the answer is; I see "English literature" used in academic contexts with different meanings. One advance in clarity is the use of the phrase "English-language literature", which is open to many nationalities, but that leaves open the question of what to call England-placed literature. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 10:49, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- The only difficulty talking about British Literature is that it can, and often does, include things not written in the English language - the Celtic languages, Scots, Norman French, Latin, Anglo-Saxon (unless you count that as Early English). There is always a need to make clear whether the word "English" means the language, the country, or the ethnicity. Wymspen (talk) 15:33, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I don't see what is ambiguous or confusing about the term Literature of England. Seems to work perfectly fine and would not believe confused with any other topic.--Jayron32 18:52, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- That's a most inadequate article - we don't seem to have written anything since the Normans learned how to speak English. Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- The article is shite. But the term is perfectly workable.--Jayron32 13:22, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
- That does not imply that the term "English literature" is unambiguous. And it is also not sure the term "Literature from England" is used at all in an academic setting. Maybe they don't even consider this a topic on its own. Hofhof (talk) 16:38, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- When I was in college, we students would occasionally greet one another with palm-outward salutes, because we were "English majors". Deor (talk) 16:56, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
- That's a most inadequate article - we don't seem to have written anything since the Normans learned how to speak English. Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 5 July 2017 (UTC)