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"Who’s bad? From Michael Jackson to David Bowie, why are some stars uncancellable?" [1]. Presumably we should add something to legacy and influence? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:18, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another Bowie related article from the Guardian, this one an interview[2]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding something like this would give it WP:UNDUE weight, without a lot more context. I think what may be appropriate, is to include this info in a fair, balanced and complete article about bands and artists in the 60s and 70s, groupie culture, and changing societal norms. I'm not sure if that exists, but you're welcome to write it. But, you'll notice that not every new article published about anything is included in the Bowie wikipedia entry just because his name is on it. 87Fan (talk) 15:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding something like which part? There are two articles here which cover different topics. Our current article doesn't appear to mention cancel culture and its impacts (or lack thereof) on Bowie's legacy, in order to be NPOV we need to. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That interview with hairdresser Suzy Ronson is quite interesting. Schwarzkopf Red Hot! Who knew! You know what they say.... "if you can remember the perm lotion, you weren't in the salon..." Martinevans123 (talk) 15:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC) p.s. almost certainly also belongs at Mick Ronson, where she's not even mentioned?[reply]
Mentioned but only in the personal life section "Ronson was married in Bearsville, New York State, in March 1977, to Suzanne (Suzi) Fussey, a hairdresser, who worked for David Bowie at the same time that Ronson did." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@87Fan: now that you have had time to think about it what would be your preferred addition to the article? In terms of thoughts on the general contextualizing of Bowie's legacy this book review might help[3]Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will add my insight to this thread once I return from my vacation in a few days. – zmbro(talk) (cont) 08:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My thoughts on this Guardian article:
The author does not seem to be coming from a neutral point of view; he seems to call out Bowie specifically – that alone makes this article not useful for inclusion.
He brings up a quote about Bowie from Claire Dederer's book Monsters: A Fan's Dilemma, which itself got a bad review from the same publication, calling the book "so thin, so ill-researched and, frequently, so crude".
I agree with the critic Jesse Crispin's opinion lambasting Dederer's book and questioning Mattix's accusations: "When that accusation came up, there was not consensus, there was a lot of discomfort."
This article is about why some artists have been "cancelled" more than others. I somewhat agree with the statement by Crispin that "anyone who built up a loyal following before the advent of social media is ultimately immune from it". Bowie's influence was massive long before social media and after he died everyone acknowledged that.
Regarding this specific article, it does not warrant mentioning because to me because I do not find it neutral. Bowie was not a rapist who drugged underage girls like Steven Tyler or Roman Polanski. Bowie's two (count em two) encounters with underage girls (when Bowie himself wasn't even that much older mind you) are simply a footnote on the larger-than-life legacy Bowie left. People like Claire Dederer need to realize that.
There is no requirement that the source be neutral or that the author comes from a neutral point of view, what do you mean "it does not warrant mentioning because to me because I do not find it neutral"? Note that NPOV (which you linked) says almost the opposite of what you do... "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." but you're saying that you don't want to include a published significant view because that view isn't neutral. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In what way would you incorporate this article then? – zmbro(talk) (cont) 18:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would summarize the significant views in it and add them to the article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm thinking maybe three sentences in legacy and influence? One sentence noting that Bowie has not for the most part been cancelled and why some want him to be, one sentence which summarizes with Dederer's view, and one sentence which summarizes Crispin's view. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why would Dederer and Crispin deserve their personal views to be included in an encyclopedia though? Don't these individual assume guilt (without proof or even conviction) and then speculate why others do not accept they are guilty or just don't care? I don't see how that is part of Bowie's legacy. Wiki should be a platform for presumption of guilt? The authors don't even seem to contemplate that Bowie and Jackson were not cancelled because a lot of people just don't find the accusers credible. castorbailey (talk) 15:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neither of those individuals do that. If you have a reliable source for that contemplation we can include it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
" In her book Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma, Claire Dederer writes about the specific pull Bowie had on young minds: “David Bowie was the patron saint of weird kids … For kids like me, there was a sense of ownership; Bowie was ours." "This intense connection meant that many overlooked the accusations." But for Dederer, it made them cut deeper. Other famous bands might have slept with teenage girls, she writes, “but not our guy”. She clearly is speculating that people overlooked the accusations (and the supposed reasons why) instead of just not believing the accusations. That's presumption of guilt. Likewise, Crispin, does not bring up the possibility that people simply don't cancel Bowie because they don't believe the accuser. I don't see why the personal opinion of individuals who presume guilt should be on wiki at all. The article as a whole lumps together convicts with people who were merely accused by dubious parties. castorbailey (talk) 15:51, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What policy or guideline would you use to justify your position on source reliability and/or due weight? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't put any thought into how we could integrate this source (if at all) but I just want to echo Horse Eye's Back here about the neutrality of sources. We can't disregard reliable secondary sources just because we suspect the authors are biased, that's not how Wikipedia works and it would be dangerous to start doing that... it would mean anyone with a POV to push could simply disregard any source they didn't agree with on the grounds of them being biased etc. Popcornfud (talk) 04:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tyler and Polanski are different because they're living people therefore the BLP policy applies. Thats apples and oranges. I would also ask you to describe in detail how an adult has sex with a child without it being rape, take your time. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although we are very unsure of Lori Mattix, one thing that I would be fine with putting in the article is Bowie's underage relationship with singer Dana Gillespie. It is documented (Kevin Cann, Dylan Jones, Gillespie's own memoir, and various online articles (for one), that the two met before Bowie was famous in 1964 (when he was 17 and Gillespie was 14) and began a relationship after (it is heavily implied that it was sexual: she witnessed Davie Jones and the Manish Boys attempting to play them – their music made little impact on her, although the singer's androgynous appearance did. After the set finished he approached Gillespie and requested she take him home: "I don't need to tell you what went on that night, but we were very young.") There are also quite a few photos of Bowie with Gillespie (including one on WP) where there are none with Bowie and Mattix. 87FanIan Rose Would either of you have any objections on adding this? It would go under 'other relationships'. – zmbro(talk) (cont) 17:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Feels like it would be appropriate to be added since it's well-corroborated. The Age of consent reform in the United Kingdom article doesn't make it clear if their ages were an issue at the time (the laws were changed in the 70s) 87Fan (talk) (edited a typo)
I support this inclusion, with the note that anything we write up here we can also use at Dana Gillespie which while it has one of the pictures you were talking about doesn't say that they were in a relationship. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After giving it some thought, I think the only way it would be appropriate to include Lori Mattix in this article is mention her in the context of the commentary that surrounded it when the Thrillist interview came out. Various articles that talked about that interview's impact include [4][5][6][7][8] (there are more I just can't find them).
One thing is straight, Mattix's story has tons of holes. I have laid those out over on my sandbox and every fact has also been laid out here on Medium. Because of this, we really have no idea if it happened or did not happen. Decades ago, she told Stephen Davis in Hammer of the Gods that she lost her virginity to Jimmy Page. This relationship was well documented and there are multiple photos of them to prove it: here and here. Yet, there are zero photos of Mattix and Bowie together. Additionally, Mattix claimed that after their supposed encounter they "remained friends throughout his rise to fame and he would always check in with me to see how I was doing in my life. We were friends." Yet again, she is not mentioned as such in any biography that I own of him (and in the rare times she is mentioned, it is only about this one supposed encounter). Other groupies who were also supposedly there during the encounter (Sable Starr, Pamela Des Barres) also contradicted Mattix's claims see here. Therefore, Mattix herself is unreliable and we can never be certain if it actually happened.
We do know what happened is this: Mattix's accusation meant something to people and sparked conversations. In the years since its publishing, fans have defended him as shown here and others have not. Henceforth, if we must include Mattix in Bowie's main article, it should be built around the debate it caused and the possible repercussions that followed. I think it would fit well under "controversies". However, it must use neutral language and presented in a way that does not state he did or did not do it. We could even continue on from how it is laid out over at MeToo movement with this source. Here's what I am thinking:
In late 2015, the former groupie Lori Mattix claimed she lost her virginity to Bowie in 1972 when she was 15 and he was 25. While the claim was questioned for its factuality, the accusation proved controversial, with several articles questioning if it would damage or impact Bowie's legacy following his death in early 2016. In the wake of the MeToo movement in the late 2010s, the accusation sparked further debate on the toleration or normalization of underage groupies during the period. – zmbro(talk) (cont) 19:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well thought out, explained and supported. I think keeping it brief and neutral is good, and that what you have proposed would be a reasonable addition. Thanks as always, zmbro. You rock. 87Fan (talk) 14:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to see a version with inline citations. The phrase "In the wake of the MeToo movement" is also a little too similar to "in the wake of #MeToo" from the Jonze piece. I think we should also be mentioning that it didn't just start a debate about the toleration or normalization of underage groupies during the period but also about Bowie's legacy (we also need to talk about Gillespie in the context of the debate and his legacy). I am also unsure of what you mean by "I think it would fit well under "controversies"" because the article does not appear to have any such section. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]