Talk:War of 1812

Algiers

Hello Cinderella157, would it be preferable if i mentionned the implication of Algiers in this war in the body before adding it to the infobox ? Best. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:48, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, it is to summarise key facts of the article. So, yes. Otherwise, we are left wondering, why is Algiers there? Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:57, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the recent addition

The British would also ask Algiers, the most powerful of the Ottoman affiliated Barbary states, to attack U.S. ships. The regency declared war on the U.S., capturing American merchant ships and enslaving their crews.

This seems WP:FRINGE and I would dispute that Algiers should be recorded as a combatant. Is there any support from reliable sources regarding Algiers having a tangible impact upon the war? Why were they not participants in the peace negotiations at Ghent? Keith H99 (talk) 11:42, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Algerian declaration of war in 1812, is a direct reason for the second barbary war. Algiers being the strongest of the barbary states is the reason why Britain asked it to join the war against the U.S., since Algiers imposed at that time tribute on the U.S. shipping in the mediterranean. This is supported by multiple sources and doesn't have to be necessarly nationalist in nature. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The sources i provided seem reliable to me , here's another one [1] Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Two of the most well known American sources on the Regency of Algiers: Wolf [2] p. 313 and Spencer [3] p. 139-140. I would suggest adding to the aftermath of this war some informations about the motives for the second barbary war (Algerian attacks on U.S. shipping, stronger U.S. navy and Congress declaration of war on March 2, 1815. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:12, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

If I was going to put across an argument about the Second World War, I would not be quoting from books about the First Indochina War. These sources pertain to Algiers. I would expect there to be mention from a reliable source about the War of 1812, in particular the naval aspect, such as the writings of Roosevelt, Toll, Daughan or similar.

Aforementioned Sources:

Barnes, Gregory Fremont (2006) The wars of the Barbary pirates

Wolf, John B (1979) The Barbary coast: Algiers under the Turks 1500 to 1830

Spencer, William (1922) Algiers in the age of the corsairs

I remain of the opinion that the concept that the Algerian corsairs were a partner of the British, in the War of 1812, to be a fringe idea. I do not think this will be accepted as something to remain in the article. Keith H99 (talk) 13:55, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I get your point, and honestly that's how i used to work on the article of the Regency, by stating refs that deal directly with the subject matter. In this case you're free to remove what I added unless i find Algerian participation in RS that deals with the War of 1812. Thanks. Nourerrahmane (talk) 14:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The impact of the Barbary states had an impact upon the fledgling US Navy and its Corps of Marines, for sure. I don't see this occurring during the War of 1812, though.

The British would also ask Algiers, the most powerful of the Ottoman affiliated Barbary states

Regarding the above (1) the present conditional of 'would also' to be removed, and in principle replaced with 'had asked'. (2) Although that corrected the grammar, the content of page 41 does not document a request from the British to declare war. It was an unhappy coincidence for Madison that an Algerian declaration of war (on an as-yet undetermined date) occurred when war against the British commenced in 1812. It is interesting that any American shipping in the mediterranean were vulnerable to attack, as mentioned on page 170. It becomes clear that these subsequent attacks would lead to the second war in 1815. (The reservation I would have with the book by Brendan January as a reliable source is that it does not contain inline citations, so it is hard to determine the evidence behind his comments.)

The talk page is useful, for the debates that arise. This article has been in existence for over 20 years. I have not come across a concept of Algerian participation in my reading about the War of 1812. I think others will have opinions on whether this is a fringe idea, or whether it can remain.

Thank you for having been polite and clear in your communications on this topic, especially given that I gather that english is not your mother tongue. Keith H99 (talk) 14:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Infobox and belligerents, with Spain on the list

As things as they currently are, I have 3 observations

1. Strength of US Allies is only 125 Choctaw. Surely, there must be more numbers for the various tribes?
2. The Regency of Algiers has been added in good faith, but I do not think this should remain for much longer.
3. Spain is listed. Given the Peninsular War was taking place, it did not have the resources to actively intervene, to launch an offensive, in overseas territories. (Simon Bolivar took advantage of Spain's weakness at this time.) A jittery Governor of Pensacola, Mateo González Manrique had his territory and his neutrality violated by the British officer Edward Nicolls, then Jackson came along and violated the neutrality. When Nicolls left, he took half the Spanish garrison away, which was stranded elsewhere for the remainder of the conflict.

There is no declaration of war on the part of Spain against the US, or vice versa. There was effectively a border dispute with the Battle of Pensacola (1814), but the impotence of the Spanish was not going to see any ongoing conflict on their part.

I don't see the US Navy listed as pro-Arab forces in the Six Day War, and I don't see the Brazilian armed forces, or the Finns, as combatants in the War in the Pacific from 1942 to 1945.

Spain has been mentioned in passing in the past

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_22#Spain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_20#Infobox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:War_of_1812/Archive_8#Spain?%60

I think as it currently stands, it is misleading, and implies Spanish forces engaged from 1813 through 1814. I am only aware of the capture of Pensacola on November 7, 1814 as the one time Spanish forces were engaged against the US Army during the War of 1812. I don't think being sandwiched between the fiery and ill-tempered personalities of Jackson and Nicolls was a particularly appealing prospect! Keith H99 (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

• Where one side fights two separate wars at the same time, it does not mean that they are the same war or that the belligerents against a common belligerents are cobelligerents - unless the sources explicitly tell us otherwise. That two things happen at the same time does not mean they are the one thing. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Per sources that I currently have available at hand (I'll find more later), but I've read about the British-Spanish alliance for years now.

"The Slaves Gamble: Choosing Sides in the War of 1812 by Gene Allen Smith (pg156)

"The rising fear that Andrew Jackson's army would soon descend on Pensascola convinced West Florida governor Mateo González Manrique to request British assistance, and within days the entire British Gulf force occupied Pensacola. Nicolls hoisted the Union Jack over the city in mid-August 1814 and declared himself the military commander of the city." Per Smith, the plan by Nicolls at Pensacola was to use the British forces (including the Colonial Marines), native tribes, and any available Spanish forces (with townspeople). The Spanish slaves were recruited from the city and this was a cause of friction because of their alliance.

"The Slaves Gamble: Choosing Sides in the War of 1812 by Gene Allen Smith (pg157)

"Cochrane had instructed Nicholls not to recruit Spanish slaves because Britain and Spain were then allies."

"The Maroons of Prospect Bluff and Their Quest for Freedom in the Atlantic World by Nathaniel Millett (pg47)

"“For centuries Spanish Florida had relied on blacks and Indians to defend itself against the aggressive encroachments of the British and the Anglo Americans. Now the Spanish were forced to rely on the British to defend them against the United States in an alliance that would have mystified earlier generations on both sides of the border." Millett notes that West Florida (Mobile) was mentioned by the British as part of the United States's violated of Article IX in the Treaty of Ghent.

"The Maroons of Prospect Bluff and Their Quest for Freedom in the Atlantic World by Nathaniel Millett (pg88)

“In the same month that the war officially ended, Alexander Cochrane expressed an opinion shared by many British politicians and military leaders when he wrote that Britain must take active measures, "for relieving West Florida from the usurped authority of the American Government (being a colony belonging to Spain) and at the same time to afford to the Indian Nations an opportunity of recovering territories of which they have been so unjustly deprived by the United States." The British feared an American Florida and wanted their Red Stick allies to recover the lands taken from them by the Treaty of Fort Jackson. These two goals were intertwined with the realization that a strong and well-armed Red Stick and Seminole presence in the Southeast represented the most realistic hope for Spain to maintain possession of the Floridas. With this in mind, the British encouraged the Red Sticks to endorse the Treaty of Ghent because of the inclusion of Article 9, calling for the restoration of Indian lands to their 1811 boundaries. Accordingly, Cochrane instructed Nicolls to "tell our Indian Allies that they have been included [in the treaty] and that they are placed as to territory as they were in 1811[.] If the peace shall not be ratified, you will have a large reinforcement sent to you at Apalachicola."

"The Greatest Fury: The Battle of New Orleans and the Rebirth of America by William C. Davis" (pg333)

"In fact, Britain's existing alliances with Spain and the Indian tribes complicated adherence to Ghent's territorial provisions. Spain wanted a friendly buffer state between an expansionist United States and its colonial possessions in Texas, Mexico, East Florida, and that part of West Florida east of the Pearl River." Davis ends the paragraph with, "Returning New Orleans or any part of Louisiana defeated both goals and left the Americans poised to spread west across the Mississippi, and east to Spanish East Florida's doorstep. That could only complicate British relations with its Spaniard allies. It came down to the value Whitehall put on those alliance." Davis noted that forces on the ground (Colonel Thorton and Captain Roberts) planned to ransom New Orleans back to President Madison. Bathurst envisioned the possibility of keeping all or part of Louisiana indefinitely.

"The Greatest Fury: The Battle of New Orleans and the Rebirth of America by William C. Davis" (pg334)

"Whitehall repeatedly emphasized that the United States had no lawful title to Louisiana. It explicitly told Cochrane and Pakenham they could encourage Louisianans to seek independence from the United States or a return to Spanish dominion so long as they did not promise British assistance or alliance. Pakenham was actually told that New Orleans would probably be handed over to Spain, and Spaniards shared that expectation." Ironic Luck (talk) 21:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Britain and Spain were allied against France. I don’t believe there was an alliance against the US and none of the sources you have quoted remotely suggest that there was.--Ykraps (talk) 19:47, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Did France ever plan to attack Pensacola in 1814? I am aware of the British-Spanish alliance against the French. Jackson tested the neutrality of the local Spanish authorities at Pensacola with a flag of truce brought forth by Major Pierre, but he (Pierre) was immediately fired upon. Jackson additionally charged the local Spanish authorities with "providing shelter to British troops" (per Daughan) for his reasoning to storm Pensacola.

"1812: The War Nobody Won by Albert Martin" (pg142)

"As soon as the war began, the War Department asked Tennessee's governor for militia units to drive the British out of Florida. Florida at this time belonged to Spain, Britian's ally in the Napoleonic Wars. Although neutral in the American struggle, Spain went out of its way to be "neutral" in favor of Britain. The Royal Navy freely used Florida's harbors, especially Pensacola, as if they were home ports."

I would add Ronald Drez's book (which also called out the British-Spanish alliance), but I was informed that he is considered non-RS per the current Wikipedia standards.

Here is what I see as a reasonable change: "Spanish Floridas (1814)" instead of "Spain (1813)"

The Spanish military had abandoned the local Spanish authorities, but this was primarily due to their decline. Professor McDougall notes this in his book:

"Freedom Just Around the Corner: A New American History 1585-1828 by Walter A. McDougall" (pg423)

"The War of 1812 settled the matter. Britain held Canada, but failed to arrest the growth of the United States. Spain gripped her empire with no more than one legal finger. All Indians within reach were vanquished."

The sources that I note above clearly have it written that there was an alliance between the local Spanish authorities and the British government. And it seems more than coincidental that there were discussions related to U.S. territory upon that British-Spanish alliance. Ironic Luck (talk) 12:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I was, of course, referring to a formal Spanish-British alliance; an alliance between the governments of Spain and Britain, not a temporary co-operation between local authorities and British troops, against an American land-grab. I don’t see anything in your sources to suggest the former and, in fact, one specifically states that Spain was neutral in the American struggle.--Ykraps (talk) 18:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Martin noted that it was not really neutral, hence he used "neutral" with quotation marks in his book. Spain needed the British support and the local authorities asked for it. The British were driven out; this outcome also hurt their reputation among the allied-Creeks. The books that I cited do not refer to this as a "temporary co-operation." Personally, I see it as fair to change it to Spanish Floridas (1814) as they were the ones whom executed the support for the British. Ironic Luck (talk) 00:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Irrespective of Martin's confusion over what the terms of the neutrality were, he notes that they were neutral. Monroe also considered them neutral, writing to Jackson to tell him to not risk war with Spain. You are of course free to propose whatever changes you wish to the infobox. Personally, I would like to see an end to infoboxes entirely, not just here, simply because they cannot convey the whole story accurately.--Ykraps (talk) 07:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The Patriot War, which took place at the same time as the War of 1812, appears to be so insignificant that it does not have a corresponding article in the Spanish language!!! Keith H99 (talk) 17:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I think I read years ago a French ship was involved in one combat... Anyone know of that?Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

replace "indian" with "indigenous"

in several parts of the artical, it says that indians are fighting in the war, and i think that if it is indeed people from india who are fighting, then add india to the list of nations in the war, but if that is not true then update it to "indigenous", "native americans", or something like that to reduce misconceptions (perhaps instead just specify where they were from?) - some bored kid at school (tell me about stuff here) 19:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"Add India to the nations" good one lol 2001:569:BEB5:AB00:FC81:463C:EE39:4D81 (talk) 05:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It's been discussed, many many times before. Have a read of this discussion for a bit of background. This is just ONE of many discussions - for more do a search through the archives.

Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Capitalisation of "house" and "senate"

Em3rgent0rdr, the house and the senate per Merriam-Webster are often used in capitalized form as the shortened name of a specific house [or senate] such as in the US Congress.[4][5] Proper nouns are always capitalised - not just often. These are not examples of proper nouns|names. While they may often be capped, this does not mean that capitalisation is necessary per the general advice at MOS:CAPS. Capitalisation of such shortened forms is sometimes done for significance but per MOS:SIGNIFCAPS, we don't do that. MOS:INSTITUTIONS more specifically addresses this issue and tells us not to cap in such instances. The matter of capitalising shortened forms of formal names has been specifically discussed here and rejected by the community. We have our own style guide to follow. You reversion to capitalise these words here is quite contrary to guidance. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

MOS:INSTITUTIONS literally says "Also treat as a proper name a shorter but still specific form, consistently capitalized in reliable generalist sources (e.g., US State Department or the State Department, depending on context)." Em3rgent0rdr (talk) 14:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Please explain the relevance of your comments to the article. TFD (talk) 20:29, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The relevance is explained by the edit reversion linked. These are not comparable to a still specific form per example given. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)