View source for Talk:Phoolan Devi/GA1

==GA Review==
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'''Reviewer:''' [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Larataguera|contribs]]) 23:40, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

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I will review this article and post an initial review in the next few days. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 23:40, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks for taking this on and let me know if you need any other sources [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 11:10, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
::Also I should add my internet access is intermittent for the next week, then back to normal again [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 11:11, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
:::This initial review is incomplete, but raises a few things to work on while I continue. At first impression, I think this article can probably pass. I will need time to review more of the sources more thorougly. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 21:40, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

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# It is '''reasonably well written'''.
#: a. ''(prose, spelling, and grammar)'': {{GAList/check|y}}
#:: <!-- 1a. The prose is clear and concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; the spelling and grammar are correct. -->
#:: 
*Minor note: I think there are a few minor issues with commas that might need attention for FA if that ever comes up. Seems like different people have different ideas about commas anyway...
*: Agreed - personally I'm unfussed as long as the system is consistent across the article [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:34, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*Broader note: please look through for places where text can be more concise or unnecessary detail can be removed. Sources note that accounts of Devi's life are not always consistent with each other, so excessive detail is an especially bad idea, since we can't be sure of the details anyway!
*Throughout: I have noticed that the sources do not tend to call Phoolan Devi just "Devi". This is a common surname adopted by many women in the Northern region when they are married. The sources (ie, Mala Sen; the [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1335253/Phoolan-Devi.html Telegraph]; the [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1996/11/indias-bandit-queen/304890/ Atlantic]) use the full name "Phoolan Devi", so I think we should also do this.
*: Yes it's another thing where the sources are all over the place. Hindustan Times for example [https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/phoolan-devi-21st-death-anniversary-akhilesh-yadav-pays-respects-with-old-photo-101658742718083.html here] uses Devi. I'm thinking we should compile a list of questions and ask for help at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject India]] [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 18:41, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
*:: Questions:
*:: How to put her name, once first stated
*:: How to put Vikram Mallah's name once stated
*:: Should there be more detail on caste politics and if so, where
*:: Was her political career significant, at least in English-langauge sources there is very little about it
'''Early life'''
* {{Done}} {{tq|Mallahs were a subcaste of Shudra}} possibly excessive detail, especially since many readers won't know what [[Shudra]] is. Clarify and link, or delete.
*: Are you familiar with the Indian caste system? I am far from being an expert on this, and I note {{ping|DaxServer}} previously [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Phoolan_Devi&diff=prev&oldid=1132969975 made] an edit which moved some text into a footnote, so perhaps you or DaxServer would be kind enough to suggest what is best here [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:30, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*::To add, I linked Dalit and Shudra again. Also DaxServer, maybe you have an opinion on the Vikram Mallah question below? [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:31, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::The footnote helps, but gets lost among the refs at the end of the previous sentence. I think this is clear enough now that you've linked it and if we move the {{tl|efn}} template after the word [[Shudra]]. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 22:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::: I've moved footnotes a and b so that they are before the refs and hopefully more noticeable [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:53, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} {{tq|successfully plotted to steal}} -> stole. Also delete {{tq|They forced Devidin to relinquish the land}}. (This is implied if the land is stolen).
*: sure, rejigged [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:36, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} {{tq|They continued to harass...}} pronoun ambiguous
*: good point, clarified [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:36, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} {{tq|Back in Gorha Ka Purwa...}} -> "When she returned home..." or "When she returned to Gorha Ka Purwa..." would be clearer. And then {{tq|the second son of the village leader}} -> "The village leader's son..."
*: Agree on first bit, rejigged. On second bit, is it better to say "the village leader's second oldest son"? I'm not sure if much is gained [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:38, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:I think individually these questions aren't too important, but generally it's almost always better to use as few words as possible, keep the detail to a minimum, and distill the most important content. Cutting just a few words here and there can make a meaningful difference across the article as a whole. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 20:50, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
'''Bandit Queen'''
* {{Done}} {{tq|For reasons that Devi has explained in multiple ways...}} This says almost nothing. Delete.I 
*: I don't want to delete it, but happy to rephrase. What I was trying to say there is that in every account, including the film, there seem to be different reasons for Babu Gujjar to come and take her away. Not sure if it's worth spelling them all out, but it is worth noting that the different accounts exist. [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:: Ok, I wouldn't hold up the review over it. I am suggesting we say in the lead that details in Devi's biographies are sometimes contradictory. If we do that is this still needed? [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 01:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::I agree that a sentence in the lead about unreliability is a good idea, but that would be no reason to delete it here - the lead should summarise the article body so some repetition is fine. [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:48, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{done}} {{tq|...came to seize her...}} -> When did this happen? Can we start this section with a date? There may be too much detail about the kidnapping. (Especially since the Atlantic says, {{tq|Phoolan's own accounts have varied significantly.}} The first sentences could just say: "On [date], a gang of bandits led by Babu Gujjar kidnapped Devi and took her away into the ravines." 
*: I can look into this, I'm not sure if we have a definite date [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:: Just a year or her age at the time would suffice to orient the reader at the beginning of the new section. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 20:51, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::* sen: july 1979 p70 then 7 july 1979 - vikram kills babu
*:::* atlantic: july 1979, when phoolan was 21/22 - doesnt sync with DoB of 1963
*:::* autobiog: "monsoon time"
*:::* guardian: at age of 20 - clearly wrong
*:::* it seems we can say july 1979, so i'll add that
*:::[[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 14:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} <s>Should we be using Vikram Mallah's first name or last name to refer to him? Everyone else is by last name.</s>
*: I'm really not sure if Mallah is a last name or caste designation here, which probably betrays my ignorance. Just had a look for MOS guidance on Indian names but didn't find much. [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:33, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:: The sources say Vikram (or frequently, "Vikram Mallah"). My mistake. Striking. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 21:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::I've also seen Vikram Singh Mallah [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 13:54, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} Need to clarify how long between her kidnapping and Gujar's death. (Atlantic says 72 hrs)
*: This is again a fact which has been presented in different scales, from days to weeks. It's tricky that all the accounts diverge! Makes it an interesting to write as encyclopedic entry but I'm sure we can find a solution. [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:43, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:: Indeed. I would suggest presenting the range of timeframes with a citation for the lower and upper end. So far I've only seen 72 hr. (Atlantic, Guardian, and Mala Sen all say 72 hr.)
*::: sen: 72
*::: atlantic: 72  
*::: guardian: 72
*::: autobiog: a few days
*::: szurlej:  nodate, follows moxham
*::: moxham: no date
*::: roads&kingdoms: no date
*::: seems reasonable to add 72 hours [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 14:23, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::: could read a little more straightforward if it said "Three days after the kidnapping", instead of {{tq|After 72 hours}}
* {{tq|Speaking through a loudhailer, she demanded that the villagers hand over Shri Ram and Lalla Ram, then her gang went from house to house looting valuables}} is a [[comma splice]]. Use a semicolon. ("...Lalla Ram; then ...")
* {{Done}} I suggest breaking the "bandit queen" section into subsections. One for the ''''Behmai Massacre''' and one for '''Surrender'''. These were both events that received a great deal of publicity and are emphasised in the sources. I think it would make the section easier to navigate.
*: Yeah it is quite long, I'll have a think about that. Maybe three sections: Banditry / Behmai Massacre / Surrender [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:58, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} {{tq|Whilst Devi was on the run, her mother was held for five months in Kalpi prison}}. Maybe not needed. If it is, it shouldn't be the first sentence of this paragraph, which should have a more general [[topic sentence]]
*: The point of that, maybe it's not clear, is that the mother was held in order to make Devi surrender [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 16:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
*:: It's not entirely clear, but the main thing is that I want the paragraph to have a clear [[topic sentence]]. As it reads now, I expect that paragraph to be entirely about the imprisonment of her mother. A more general topic sentence would be something more like, "Police pursued Phoolan Devi for two years after the Behmai massacre, and eventually negotiated a surrender in 1983." This would set up the paragraph to then provide further detail on the topic of her pursuit and surrender. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 17:16, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::rejigged [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 19:51, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
'''Political career'''
* {{Done}} First paragraph says charges were dropped in 1994. Second paragraph says there were still charges in 1996. Can you clarify if there were two separate sets of charges?
*: The sources are a right mess with regards to this - it was very hard to work out what was going on and what exactly the charges were, I can take another look [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:55, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
*:: I've added a bit more. The charges were always the same and actually still open when she was assassinated [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 19:13, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
*::: The courtcase is [https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/lucknow-news/85yearold-accused-in-phoolan-devi-s-behmai-massacre-case-dies-leaving-only-two-in-custody-101681293588725.html still] going on?!? [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 19:52, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} This section is a little unfocussed. The heading is "Political career", but slightly over half the section is about criminal charges from her career as a bandit. Should criminal charges go in the "Bandit Queen" section (maybe a third subsection about criminal charges)? And then the section on political career could be expanded and kept on topic.
*: My rationale would be to keep it roughly chronological and the criminal charges are a big part of her political career [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 19:13, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
'''Popular culture'''
* {{Done}} {{tq|Devi's autobiography I, Phoolan Devi was dictated by her onto tape and then edited into a book which was published first in French and then other...}} -> "Devi dictated her autobiography, ''I, Phoolan Devi'' and it was published in 1996, first in French, and then other..."
*: changed [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 16:15, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} <s>{{tq|Moxham reported that she then renounced Buddhism.}} redundant from previous sentence. Delete. </s>
*: It's not redundant, because she became Buddhist then recanted [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 16:00, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
*:: My mistake. I misread. Striking. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 16:28, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} {{tq|In his autobiography (published in 2021), Farrukh Dhondy, the commissioning editor at Channel 4, described how he rushed to Delhi to sign a cheque to get Umed Singh to persuade Devi to drop her complaint. Moxham writes that when Devi discovered Singh had taken this payment, they became estranged, before later reconciling again.}} Excessive detail? 
*: trimmed [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 15:59, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
'''Legacy'''
* {{Done}} {{tq|Media theorist Sandra Ponzanesi sees Devi's life as an exemplary case of a postcolonial subject attempting to preserve their agency in the face of an Orientalist gaze.}} What's that mean exactly? Is it possible to say this simpler language?
*: How about: {{tq|Media theorist Sandra Ponzanesi takes Devi as an example of a [[Third World]] [[postcolonial]] subject who is well aware of the racist and patronising attitudes [[First World]] analysts can have of her.}} 
*:: That's clearer. I would link [[postcolonial]] only, because of [[MOS:SEAOFBLUE]]. I still wonder if there's something more to be said here. Maybe I'll look over that source. But yes, this seems clearer to me and it's probably good enough.
*::: Adjusted, not sure what else to add [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 14:29, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
*{{Done}} {{tq|Lisa Ray was reported to be the main voice artist...}} -> "Lisa Ray was the main voice artist". Or, is Lisa Ray's involvement excessive detail? "In 2019 Hossein Martin Fazeli produced a documentary..."
*: I agree Lisa Ray prob doesnt need a mention, it's just that the documentary seems to have been being made for at least 5 years and still hasn't been released or reviewed, so it's hard to get a year in [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 20:03, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
*:ok chopped out Ray, said Hossein was developing the docu [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 14:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

* Please look for more concise wording throughout, wherever possible.

#: b. ''([[Wikipedia:Manual of Style|MoS]] for [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section|lead]], [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout|layout]], [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch|word choice]], [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction|fiction]], and [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Embedded lists|lists]])'': {{GAList/check| y}}
#:: <!-- 1b. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. -->
'''Lead''': 
* {{Done}} The first sentence should clearly identify the subject. "Phoolan Devi was a bandit leader and member of parliament..." or something like that. Some of the detail in the first paragraph may not belong in the lead at all. Growing up in poverty, the land dispute, and repeated sexual abuse only belongs in the lead to the extent that it is necessary for understanding what makes Devi [[WP:N|notable]].
*: Good point on the first sentence, I've changed that. [[MOS:LEAD]] says the article should summarise the article body, but of course I'm happy to discuss specific sentences or events. [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:51, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
* {{Done}} The lead should mention the Behmai massacre. This was a very notable event in her life. [[Behmai massacre]] also redirects here, so a person arriving from that search term should understand why they are at this page.
*: Yes definitely - have added [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:51, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*:: Even a little more detail about the massacre may be warranted (when it happened, how many people died). The statement that {{tq|The Behmai massacre was a controversial event which she claimed not to have organised.}} only makes sense if we've established that other people claimed that she did command it. Her imprisonment, later legal troubles, and eventual assassination seem to revolve around this event. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 21:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
*::: This is getting better. Can the sentence {{tq|The 1981 Behmai massacre was a controversial event in which twenty Thakur men were executed}} be rephrased to clarify how the massacre is related to Phoolan Devi? Maybe "Phoolan Devi faced murder charges for the 1981 Behmai massacre in which twenty Thakur men were executed"? Or "Phoolan Devi allegedly ordered the 1981 Behmai massacre in which..." [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 02:59, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
*::::Yes i see what you mean, i tweaked it [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 14:32, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
# It is '''factually accurate''' and '''[[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiable]]'''.
#: a. ''([[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout#Notes and references|reference section]])'': {{GAList/check| y}}
#:: <!-- 2a. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    References do not need to be consistently formatted or bibliographically complete, but they should contain enough information for you to be able to identify the source. Dead links should not be bare URLs. -->
#::  {{Done}} It may be worth making a statement (even in the lead) that details about Devi's life are foggy. Partly because of this, it's going to take me a little more time to see what is consistent from one source to another before further comment on verifiability.
#:: As we are finding several situations where sources may contradict each other, perhaps we should repeat this statement from the Legacy section {{tq|Scholar Tatiana Szurlej notes that the facts presented in these biographies often contradict each other, despite coming from interviews with Devi herself.}} in the lead. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 01:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
#::: added to lead [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 20:04, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
#: b. ''(citations to [[Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources|reliable sources]])'': {{GAList/check| y}}
#:: <!-- 2b. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons – science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:
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#: c. ''([[Wikipedia:No original research|OR]])'': {{GAList/check| y }}
#:: <!-- 2c. Check at least some of the cited sources to see if they verify the article text. The article should not synthesize material from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not stated by any of them. -->
#::  
#: d. ''([[Wikipedia:Copyrights|copyvio]] and [[Wikipedia:Plagiarism|plagiarism]])'': {{GAList/check| y}}
#:: Earwig ok. No problems so far.
#:: 
# It is '''broad in its coverage'''.
#: a. ''([[WP:Out of scope|major aspects]])'': {{GAList/check|y}}
#:: <!-- 3a. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    Ensure coverage of the main aspects. Note that to meet criteria 3a and 3b, comprehensiveness is not required: "broad in its coverage" allows shorter articles, articles that do not cover every fact or detail, and overviews of large topics. -->
#:: {{Done}} I would think some additional information about caste politics could be helpful. One source[https://roadsandkingdoms.com/2017/indias-bandit-queen/] says she was the first low-caste woman elected to parliament. The context or aims of her political career could be expanded. Right now, the only sentence that does this is {{tq|Devi campaigned with limited success for the rights of women and to provide better amenities for the poor. She told Roy Moxham "I want to bring hospitals, schools, electricity and clean water to the poor in the villages. To stop child marriage and to improve life for women.}} The rest of that section is actually about her murder charges.
#::: I remember not finding much in the sources about her political career but I'll have another look [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 16:01, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
#:::: Could be helpful to link [[Caste politics]] for context (not a very good article, but maybe better someday!). [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 17:09, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
#:::::I don't think roadsandkingdoms is correct there, for example [[Dakshayani Velayudhan]] was the first [[Scheduled Caste]] woman back in 1946
#:::::I'm checking for political stuff and it remains hard to find, eg [https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/phoolan-devi-shot-dead/articleshow/1937455472.cms here] and [https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cover-story/story/20010806-as-in-life-so-in-death-the-persona-of-phoolan-devi-becomes-a-battleground-for-caste-war-all-over-again-773938-2001-08-05 here]. Her obituaries don't say much and for example on googlenews, '"phoolan devi" "lok sabha"'searching between 1996 and 2001 gives zero hits. I've found some other bits and bobs, and am adding them as I go. And outlook has a bit I can put in now [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 20:24, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
#:::::: Ok, thanks for looking. Can't put it in if it's not there! [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 02:45, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
#: b. ''([[Wikipedia:Article size|focused]])'': {{GAList/check| y }}
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    Check for undue emphasis on tangents or minor details. Lengthy sections on subtopics should be spun off into their own articles, leaving summaries in their place. -->
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# It follows the '''[[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|neutral point of view]] policy'''.
#: ''Fair representation without bias'': {{GAList/check| y}}
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#:: 
# It is '''stable'''.
#: ''No edit wars, etc.'': {{GAList/check|y}}
#:: <!-- 5. It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
    Scan the article's history and talk page for edit wars and content disputes. Good-faith improvements (such as copyediting), changes made in response to the review, proposals to merge or split content, and reversions of vandalism do not apply here. Stability is based on the article's current state, not any potential for instability in the future. -->
#:: seems to be
# It is illustrated by '''[[Wikipedia:Images|images]]''' and other media, where possible and appropriate.
#: a. ''(images are tagged and non-free content have [[Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline|non-free use rationales]])'': {{GAList/check| y}}
#:: <!-- 6a. Click on media to check for valid copyright tags and, if not freely-licensed, a valid non-free use rationale. If the article has no media, but there is a readily available, relevant image with an acceptable license, it should be included. Otherwise, mark 6a and 6b as passed since media are not required for GA status. -->
#:: 
#: b. ''([[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Pertinence and encyclopedic nature|appropriate use]] with [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Captions|suitable captions]])'': {{GAList/check| y }}
#:: <!-- 6b. Check that media are not primarily decorative and have relevance to the topic. Captions should be succinct and informative. -->
#::*  What do you think about adding an image of Durga?  [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 17:09, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
#::*: honestly i'm not sure [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 19:54, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
#::*:: I ask, because providing images of Durga and Gandhi was a condition of Phoolan Devi's surrender. The article mentions that she bows before these images during the surrender (though it doesn't mention that this was a condition of surrender). Since the image is explicitly mentioned, it could make sense to have the image in the article. (Also an image of Gandhi, although I'm assuming that most readers will be more familiar with an image of Gandhi; but this could be an incorrect assumption, and maybe we should provide both images.) So the caption would be something like: "Phoolan Devi required images of Durga and Gandhi be present at her surrender." [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 01:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
# '''Overall''': 
#: ''Pass/fail'': {{GAList/check| <!-- Insert y for pass, n for fail or hold for on hold --> }}
#:: <!-- If the article meets all 6 criteria, mark it as a pass. If it is only partially compliant or non-compliant, you may place the review on hold to allow time for issues to be fixed (generally 7 days). Often the nomination is brought up to standard during the review. If so, note this and close the review as a pass. If the nomination does not meet the criteria, close it as a fail. -->
#:: 
<small>''(Criteria marked [[Image:Symbol comment 2.png|14px]] are unassessed)''</small><!-- Template:GAN/list -->
* just as general feedback, I'm not really enjoying making replies within this template, the reply function sends me to the wrong place and I'm having to keyword search where to reply [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 20:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
*: Agreed. This was my first full GA review, and I just used the default template. I think next time I would just set it up with regular subheadings. If you have any other feedback on this whole process, please let me know!{{pb}}I think we're pretty close to being done. I guess we need to resolve these questions about naming conventions...[[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 02:45, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
*::Hiya thanks for your patience, I should have normal internet access again by tomorrow or maybe even later today. In terms of review feedback, I think things are going well - you are going beyond GA requirements on prose and that's fine for me because I want to take it to FA and we both want to improve the article. Do you have any questions for WikiProject India? Cheers [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 09:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
*::: Just the above questions. Hopefully they'll have some insight. Thanks [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 01:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
*::: At this point, the only thing left that would hold up the review is clarity on the naming convention. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 01:56, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
*::::Hiya just checking in, no response yet to my query posted at [[Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics#Phoolan_Devi]]. [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 17:01, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::::Sadly no answer so ... I think I'll ask at Women in Red, I'd hope to at least get an answer there. [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 13:37, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
*::::::Question asked here [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Women_in_Red#Indian_naming_conventions]] - in the meantime is there anything else that needs doing? Cheers, [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 13:41, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::I would be willing to pass this review if the naming convention were sorted out. If there are no responses, I suggest replacing all instances of "Devi" with "Phoolan Devi", because that seems to be the convention in most of the sources (unless you disagree that this is the most common usage). [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 00:24, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::I'm no sure if most sources use "Phoolan Devi" but I do agree that's the least bad solution if we don't find any other guidance. So I was thinking to leave the question open for another day then make that change, hope that works for you. Cheers, [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 10:05, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::Hmm still no answer on either thread, I suppose this is another way in which Wikipedia's systemic bias plays out. I tried to make the Devi ⇒ Phoolan Devi switch but it just makes reading the text rather awkward in my opinion, I'm so conditioned to using only the last name after first mention. I do note that her mother is/was Moola Devi, so maybe then Devi can be taken as a female last name? I had another look for guidance but didn't find much in [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)]] and [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic)]] (or indeed [[Indian name]]) [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 09:36, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::Yes, I suppose this is one more facet of systemic bias. My concern is that if Mala Sen used "Phoolan Devi" throughout her full-length book, in spite of it's awkwardness, then there's probably a reason to do it that way. (And I didn't find it so awkward while reading that book). I could possibly be swayed if you showed me more sources that use just "Devi". For instance, I would likely reconsider if Roy Moxham's book used that convention. If Moxham uses "Phoolan Devi" throughout, then I would have to insist we do the same.{{pb}}There was a little information at [[Indian name]], where it says about Northern India "Many women, especially in rural areas, take on the surname Devi (meaning Goddess) or Kumari (princess) when they are married (ex. Phoolan Devi)". I wonder if using only Devi is too ambiguous, like writing an article about an English woman and calling her "Mrs." throughout? Or an inappropriate conflation with the word for goddess: [[Devi]]? I don't know. This isn't a subject I have much knowledge or experience with, and I am speculating based on my observation that the full name is used in the sources. Lacking further guidance, we should mimic the sources. [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 11:18, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
*:::::::::::Yes I agree we should follow the sources unless we find better advice. I'll have to go through the sources again then, prob can do that later today. Moxham uses "Phoolan" but that doesn't surprise me because if you were writing a chatty journalistic book about someone in english, you would refer to them by their first name. It is a good point that Mala Sen mostly uses "Phoolan Devi" but she does also use "Phoolan" eg p7,p29,p30,p39,p41,p46,p47 and "Devi" on occasion as well. [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 12:17, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
*::::::::::::PS Also thanks for pointing out that [[Phoolan Devi]] is actually used as an example at [[Indian name]], not sure how I missed that! [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 12:30, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
{{OD}}
* A survey of sources:
* Mala Sen - Mostly Phoolan Devi
* Moxham - Mostly Phoolan
* Dhondy - Phoolan Devi
* Butalia - Phoolan Devi
* Ashraf - Mostly Phoolan Devi
* The Hindu -Phoolan Devi
* Economic times - Phoolan Devi
* Sony Jalarajan Raj, Rohini Sreekumar and Nithin Kalorth -Phoolan Devi
* Shanthie Mariet D'Souza & Bibhu Prasad Routray - Mostly Phoolan Devi
* Bonnie Zare - Mostly Phoolan Devi
* Srilata Ravi and راڤي سريلاتا - Mostly Phoolan Devi
* Szurlej - Phoolan Devi
* So I've implemented the change to make it mostly "Phoolan Devi", except when the second mention is close and it's 100% clear we mean Phoolan Devi, then I put "Devi". This follows the sources in that most use "Phoolan Devi", and "Devi" is used in this way quite often. And for example the ''Hindustan Times'' in two examples uses "Phoolan Devi" and in another mostly "Phoolan Devi"! Devi does appear to be the surname and I hope to find a definitive answer in the future - in [[Indian name]] the source only says Devi is a surname and doesn't actually mention Phoolan Devi. [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] ([[User talk:Mujinga|talk]]) 18:32, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
::Looks good. I've passed the article. Thanks! [[User:Larataguera|Larataguera]] ([[User talk:Larataguera|talk]]) 19:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
{{abot}}