User talk:SimonGoth

Adbulrahim Abby Farah

Dear MiddayExpress,

I am attempting to add information and correct inaccuracies in this page.

There are several more - for example:

Farah did not begin his career with the Trust Territory of Somaliland as that began in 1950.

Farah was born in Cardiff, Wales NOT Somaliland.

Are you objecting to the information changes or to the position of the changes?

Best Regards,

Simon Goth — Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonGoth (talk • contribs) 16:23, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

SimonGoth (talk) 16:29, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What are you basing this on? Please link to it. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 16:36, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have his birth certificate - the earlier quoted information was incorrect and actually not part of the bio given here: http://uca.edu/politicalscience/student-activities/amun/amun-50th-anniversary/fifty-years-of-the-arkansas-model-united-nations/1975-amun-conference/.

SimonGoth (talk) 16:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I doesn't mention Cardiff at all. AcidSnow (talk) 18:02, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

True, the original statement of place of birth as Somaliland was inferred as the citation does not mention his Place of Birth. The UK GRO has provided me with his birth details and I will amend the entry to mention this reference (at present there seems to be no way to verify GRO records with a URL).

SimonGoth (talk) 18:14, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He seems to have actually been born in Somalia, see here: [1]. AcidSnow (talk) 18:44, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am impressed by your research skills! I don't think the researchers did their homework though - he was definitely born in Cardiff. Short of posting his birth certificate, a picture of his mother's grave (in Cardiff), a picture of his father's grave (in Cardiff) or posting a video of him saying 'I was born in Cardiff' (he has a Welsh accent) I'm not sure how I can prove by reference to the internet that he was born in Cardiff.

I would value your opinion on how I go about providing and citing the correct information.

Your help would be appreciated, best regards, Simon SimonGoth (talk) 19:29, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This Welsh website claims him: http://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/446840 Barry is Cardiff - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry,_Vale_of_Glamorgan

SimonGoth (talk) 19:35, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For starters, this website isn't reliable. It seems to be a site where anyone can't post anything, hence: "Watch Anthony's Story and see how your collections can become part of Wales's digital heritage". Unsurprisingly, this video takes pretty much all of it's information from Wikipedia (other than Farah supposedly being "black" and "from" Cardiff) and it doesn't provide anything for the rest. Nor is Bary in Cardiff. It's a standalone town. More importantly, you haven't shown us any of the things you have stated to have provided (grave, accent, etc). By the way, Farah was Chief of Cabinet, so kindly stop removing it. He also didn't hold any political positions before 1951 (see here: [2]), so please don't add that without a proper source. Above all, Farah was "Born 22 Oct 19, Berbera, {British} Somaliland". Hence why he is only a citizen of Somalia and not the United Kingdom, so please cease your constant removal. Anyways, all I am doing are simple Google searches, nothing high tech. AcidSnow (talk) 21:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please bear with me I am very new to Wikipedia. I appreciate and respect your commitment to accurate and correctly referenced information. You are correct to point out that websites often misrepresent information or are erroneous.

Most of the information I have is either from the subject himself or from primary sources (birth certificate).

On the subject of the removal of his position of 'Chief of Cabinet' I was asked to remove that information by Farah himself as he knew it was an error - from the source you cite:

H.E. Abdulrahim Abby Farah, Permanent Representative of the Somali Republic to the United Nations

Mr. Abdurahman Abby Farah, Chief of Cabinet

These are two separate people (brothers): both born in Wales. It was Abdulrahman who was 'Chief of Cabinet', not Abdulrahim.

The cited source did not mention 'Chief of Cabinet' because it is not true. Furthermore, that erroneous information was presented as fact on the site without citation until my deletion.

You may be correct over the Barry/Cardiff issue - the Birth Certificate says Cardiff but the family moved around the area at the time and lived in both places. It is simply not true that he was born in Somalia and I am glad that you have allowed this information to remain deleted.

So, I am in the position of having access to primary sources that are difficult to cite online. Most individuals, even ex-ambassadors, do not have many secondary sources to cite (by which I mean books, journals, websites etc) that conveniently consolidate verified information.

As I said, I respect your commitment to accurate information and my intention is not to waste your time or post hearsay.

To clear up the Place of Birth issue (the 1977 African 'Who's Who' source is incorrect): is it enough to refer to the UK General Registry Office record (County, Town, Page Number, record number) or do I actually have to post a (presumably unfalsified) image of the record/certificate itself?

Best Regards SimonGoth (talk) 22:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Brothers and both from Wales? That's quite interesting considering that it's the same person but with a typo. It's a common error when it comes to writing Somali names, see here: [3]. What's your take on this Middayexpress. AcidSnow (talk) 23:55, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems they are likely brothers. I don't think "Abdulrahim" and "Abdurahim" are alternative spellings of the same gentleman's name [4]. Other than that, Abdulrahim does appear to have been born in Berbera. Middayexpress (talk) 00:06, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There were three brothers, all born in Wales: Abdulahi (b. 1911), Abdirahman (b. 1917), Abdulrahim (b. 1919). I do not see what reason the citation would have for listing the same man twice under different names. Please answer my question, though, I have primary documents: Birth Certificates - how should it be cited?

SimonGoth (talk) 00:13, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unlikely for two reasons Middayexpress. I have already showen that it's a common spelling error with his name. Even this is individual does the same thing: "UN sub-committee on apartheid, Abdurahman Abby Farah of Somalia". Not only that, but doing a extensive Google search shows that an individual by this name never existed. AcidSnow (talk) 00:19, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Also, Article 9 of the 1960 Constitution of the Somali Republic stipulates that every citizen who possesses the qualifications required by law shall be equally eligible for public office [5]. He would thus almost certainly have to have been born in Somalia in order to have served as its Ambassador. Middayexpress (talk) 00:43, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting indeed. AcidSnow (talk) 00:54, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Somali Diaspora is notable and extends back into the 19th Century. Somali's derive identity from patrilineage, tribe and clan rather than place of birth. Somali Independence was partially shaped by at least two of the three I have mentioned so it is unlikely that location of birth would be a bar to office.

SimonGoth (talk) 01:02, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The non-existent Abdulrahman was also Head of the BBC Somali Service for which he received an MBE. He is definitely a separate person from his brother.

SimonGoth (talk) 01:04, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Somali Diaspora is much older than the 19th century. For example, Ali al-Jabarti was a politician in Cario in the 15th century and Sa'id of Mogadishu was Somali traveler whom traveled to China in the 14th century. These aren't the oldest individuals but rather just examples. Also, Somalis are not organized into "tribes" rather only clans. Anyways, law is law. More importantly, who on earth is "Abdulrahman"? I thought you said his brothers were "Abdulahi (b. 1911), Abdirahman (b. 1917), Abdulrahim (b. 1919)". Unsurprisingly, even the Somali Government spelled his name diffrently: "Abdirahman Abby Farah the then Chairman of special committe on apartheid". What's your take on this one Middayexpress. AcidSnow (talk) 01:25, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]