View source for Talk:Board game

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{{WikiProject Board and table games|importance=Top}}
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{{Merged-from|American board games, 1843–1935|13 May 2013|target=Board game|talk=no}}
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== Miscellaneous ==
We definitely need to come up with a better classification here, at some point.  It's a good start, but games like [[:Abalone|Abalone]] and [[:Die Siedler von Catan|Die Siedler]] really defy any coarse classification.  Perhaps nested classification pages, with games existing on multiple pages?  I'm planning on adding entries for a few more games that we play regularly, most of which won't quite fit anywhere in here.  Don't take this as anything other than a random thought. :) -- [[User:Phil Bordelon|Phil Bordelon]]

Some useful classifications of games may be:
* minimum and maximum number of players
* whether all information is available to all players
* whether a random generator (dice, card shuffle, etc.) is used before and/or during play
* in games that use randomness, whether the players have any control over the outcome of the game.  Games for small children that are entirely based on chance include [[:Candy Land|Candy Land]], [[:Chutes and Ladders|Chutes and Ladders]], and [[:Care Bears Warm Feelings|Care Bears Warm Feelings]].
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I agree that the present classification scheme is inadequate, and the article as written is confusing.  "Proprietary games" is a ridiculous category, for starters, and the "war game" category has a big description with no examples.  I have several suggestions which I will implement as time permits if there are no objections.
: "Proprietary game" is a game protected by a [[patent]] in a [[United States of America|major market]]. --[[user:Damian Yerrick|Damian Yerrick]]

:: Right, my point was not that the category is ill-defined, but that it is not very relevant.  For example, the proprietaty game Balderdash is almost identical to the non-proprietary game Dictionary or Fictionary.  For 9 out of 10 readers, Balderdash and Dictionary should be in one group, and chess and Abalone in another group.  It would be less useful to have Balderdash and Abalone in one group (proprietary) and chess and Dictionary in another (non-proprietary).  --[[user:Fritzlein|Karl Juhnke]]

I suspect that this page has become too cluttered because it is more active than some other pages.  If there is a better category, we should offload from this page to that page, and merely link.
*We should move all word games which merely happen to be board games to the "letter games" page.  Anagrams is played without a board and Scrabble is played with a board, but those games bear much greater kinship to each other than either does to chess.
*We should create a page for "Party Games" that large numbers of people (say 8-15) can play.  Charades, Outburst, Trivial Pursuit, Balderdash and so on belong together even though one game has a board, another uses words, another is about guessing, etc.
*Wargames, if they are not abstract, probably also deserve recognition apart from board games.  The attraction of such games has a great deal to do with simulation, and spills over into miniatures games where there might not be a board.  The distinction between a simulation-type wargame and boardgame abstracted from war simulation is fuzzy, of course, but real.  Chess, Stratego, and Risk are all abstract enough to be boardgames, whereas Axis and Allies, Advanced Squad Leader, Wooden Ships and Iron Men, and Flintloque are all more interested in simulation.

That leaves the board game article to deal with
*two-player games of perfect information (chess, Abalone)
*two-player games with chance or imperfect information (backgammon, Stratego)
*mulit-player no-elimination games (Clue, Empire Builder, Settlers of Catan)
*multi-player elimination games (Diplomacy, Monopoly)

Certainly this outline won't catch all types of games; some board games will fit two categories and some won't fit any.  Still, since there must be some grouping, let the grouping be based on the way people tend to think about games when they are considering what to play of an evening.

I am very interested in other opinions, both before and during my re-organization. --[[user:Fritzlein|Karl Juhnke]]

I'd say split two-player games with chance or imperfect information into games where imperfect information known by at least one player dominates (Stratego), games where chance dominates (backgammon), and games where neither dominates.
I'd also create an additional category for multi-player "games" completely determined by chance, where the players have no control of the outcome.
These tend to be played by small children.
Examples include Candy Land, Chutes and Ladders, Care Bears Warm Feelings, etc. --[[user:Damian Yerrick|Damian Yerrick]]

:I agree that children's games deserve their own category. --[[user:Fritzlein|Karl Juhnke]]

I Agree with alot of what is said here, It was sort of hard to find the information on some of the games because they are indirectly linked or cluttered and such. Personally, I think they should be sorted by Objective, seeing has how most games do follow common goals. Capture all pieces, Checkmate, highest points, lowest points, reaching the end, etc. Sure, there will be games that don't have a common goal, but there is no way you could make a few all encompassing categories, anyway you look at it. That's one of the great thing about all the games in the world, some of them are ''truly'' unique. 

By the by, I'd love to help if there is anything I could be handy for, I'm fairly educated in the world of abstract games. (board games and card games), and I have plenty of free time (sorry about all the updates, my connection was being funny) -- [[user:Ydd|Alex Stevens]]

----

I think we should stick to categorizing by type, as that more than any other factor is likely to be what the average user wants. The other possible categorizations could be used, but I don't think that the main board game article is the place for them. For instance most people wouldn't care if perfect play was possible in a game, but we should have a page about board games in which perfect play is possible.

On the "propriety" issue, where a game is essentially a propriety version of a classic game we should only list the classic version on this page, with the propriety versions name given only in the particular games page, alternatively it could be given in brackets after the classical games name.

Also "track games", in standard texts I've seen these type of game referred to as "race games", I think we should adopt this title. Also I believe Monopoly should be dropped from this list.

Incidently anyone trying to find information on obscure games, I'd recommend RC Bell's "Board and Table Games from amny Civilizations" (1960) and  HJR Murray's "History of Board Games other than Chess" (1952). -- [[user:Imran|Imran Ghory]]

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OK, I have taken the plunge and reorganized the whole page.  I have eliminated the category of "proprietary game", and put all the games that were there in other categories.  Perhaps more controversially, I have eliminated the category of "race games".  My rationale is that when people are interested in playing a game, most probably they want to know something else first, other than that it is a race game.  Candy Land, Backgammon, and Careers are all race games of a sort, but are appropriate in very different settings.  I submit that backgammon has greater affinity to two-player games than to Candy Land, Careers has more affinity to The Settlers of Catan than to backgammon, etc.

I know that different people will approach the page with different objectives, which means that different categories will interest different people.  The historian has a different interest in games than a mathematician, for example.  The categorization I settled on is intended to be from the perspective of the gamer.  I and a friend (or friends) want to play a game, and I am looking for a game that would be right for the situation.

As always, comments and corrections are welcome.  --[[user:Fritzlein|Karl Juhnke]]

-----

I think we should keep the race game category, as the games are clearly related. For instance players who play Ludo often go onto play Backgammon, which is very similiar in principle. In the same way Ludo is a step up from Snake and Ladders (Chutes and Ladders).

(I haven't played CandyLand or Careers so I can't comment on them)

Also I think we should seperate hidden information and random element game.

Another point Risk isn't a multiplayer elimination games, if played with cards it can just require certain objectives are met.

On a final point, I don't think we should limit games to single categories, if a game fits into two categories then list it under both.

On an extra final point Pachisi isn't a children's game.

--[[User:Imran|Imran]]

I moved Pachisi.  I see the family resemblance between Ludo and Backgammon, and how learning the mechanics of Ludo would make backgammon easier to learn.  I admit that the category of "race games" is a legitimate classification.  Yes, the games are clearly related.  But even though they are related, I still don't like having the category.

From a gamer's perspective it makes sense to break down games differently.  The backgammon player is more likely to enjoy another two-player game of luck+skill than he is to enjoy another race game of almost entirely luck.

I can see some benefit to having games appear under more than one classification, but there is a trade-off involved.  Every additional category makes the page more cluttered and difficult to navigate.  Where does one draw the line with new categories?  For example, if we start categorizing by objective (win the race), shouldn't we also have a new category for "making the most money" games, and "immobilize the opponent" games, etc.?

: If there are enough in the category (say at least two major established games, and some others) then I think we should add it. Race games and positional games (Halma, Morris) are just as legitimate categories as elimination or war games. --[[User:Imran|Imran]]

:: Yes, I agree that they are legitimate categories.  We have no dispute there.  My position is that we just because something is a legitimate category doesn't mean we should include it.  I don't think our goal is to classify board games in as many good ways as we can think of, but rather to pick one good way of classifying and stick to it.  By the way, that seems to be the method of all good books on games: not every author classifies the same way, but it is rare (in my experience) to see a game listed in chapter 2 and then cross-indexed in chapter 5. --[[user:Fritzlein|Karl Juhnke]]


And then the historian may want to classify based on the date of invetion.  "Ancient games", "Games invented in the last fifty years", etc.  And the mathematician will want to classify Husker Du (a.k.a. memory a.k.a. concentration) as a game of imperfect information rather than a children's game, etc.

: Well I wrote the [[history of board games]] article, and I don't really feel any need to sort by date, but if I did they could easily fit into that article. The same could apply to any other specialist categorization.  --[[User:Imran|Imran]]


My preference, therefore, is to do the best we can to avoid listing any game twice.  No classification system will be perfect, but a unified system is much to be desired, even if there is more than one principle on which it _could_ be based.

Oh, and as to Risk, I forgot that it has evolved from being a pure elimination game as it was when I first learned it.  But it still belongs in the elimination category, because players can be wiped out even when assignment cards are used, and then they may have nothing to do until the next game starts.  I will modify the description to include possible elimination.
--[[user:Fritzlein|Karl Juhnke]]

I have started up a page about [[Game classification|classifying games]] in general; Maybe we can continue this discussion over there if need be.  --[[User:Fritzlein|Fritzlein]] 16:20 Aug 24, 2002 (PDT)

----

I removed this list from the article:
:==European race games==

:*[[Game of the Goose]]
:*[[Tour of Europe]]
:*[[Round the World with Nellie Bly]]
:*[[Game of Japan]]
:*[[The Sun of Brunswick]]
:*[[Jeu du Grand-Homme]]
:*[[Circle of Knowledge]]
:*[[Peter Rabbit's Race Game]]

I don't think many people would consider "European Race Games" a genre unto itself.  If anyone cares to, they could add some of these games to other lists, though they sound pretty obscure to me. &mdash;[[User:Frecklefoot|Frecklefoot]] 13:33 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

: That's because most of them are from the 18th/19th century, while this class of game isn't very common today, it was once very important and many of todays games companies (including Parker Brothers, Milton Bradley, and Chad Valley) started out by producing this kind of game. It was also these games that allowed for the first European board game companies to exist as companies in their own right (as opposed to being part of a lithograph/publishing company). Although many of them could be classified as chance games or in a generalized "race game" category, I think they are distinctive enough to qualify for their own category. --[[User:Imran|Imran]] 20:12 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

:: I can see your point, Imran.  The category is fairly distinctive, especially since the games are seldom played today.  I earlier argued for the page to be grouped from a gamer's point of view, but a class of historical games may deserve its own heading, as the gamer would have no opinion.  My only problem with the list being in the main board game article is a lack of articles behind it.  If each game were backed by good information, as well as the heading having its own article, then I think it would be a fine format for the information, and the best place in Wikipedia for it to appear. --[[User:Fritzlein|Fritzlein]] 22:14 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

::: Perhaps a seperate article for the european race games would be more appropriate, as more can probably be said about these games as a genre than could be said about the individual games. --[[User:Imran|Imran]] 22:56 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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We have a slight categorization problem here.  Several of the games linked under word games and party games do not have a board.   Apples to Apples, Taboo, Anagrams, and I think several other games are played with cards and other equipment not including a board.

I see several possible solutions:
#Do nothing, and let the board games article serve as a catch-all for all games that bear some resemblance to board games.
#Remove the games that are not board games.  For example, under word games we include only word games which are board games too, but delete word games which aren't board games.
#Remove all party games and word games from this article, and simply leave a link to those other categories.

My personal preference is for the latter option.  Let's not try to maintain two lists of word games, one on the word games page and one on the board games page.  Instead let's put prominent links to those other pages, and maintain all the links to individual games over there.

Since I don't want to maintain lists in two places, I look for the more compelling category.  In my mind, "word game" has a stronger hold over Scrabble than "board game".

It there are no objections, I will implement this proposal when I get around to it.  --[[User:Fritzlein|Fritzlein]] 20:22 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)

----
I don't know the game PARFUDREZ and I don't think it is a Classic two-player abstract strategy game

:The only Google hits for PARFUDREZ are for Wikipedia and sites that copy Wikipedia content. I'll remove it. --[[User:Zundark|Zundark]] 12:08, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

::And yet it seems that an article entitled [[PARFUDREZ]] [[Wikipedia:Deletion log archive/June 2004 (1)|was deleted]] 18:55, 9 Jun 2004 '''as being a copyvio'''.  How can this be?  Incidentally I suspect [http://www.elexi.de/en/p/pa/parfudrez.html] may be a cache of this article. -[[User:Blotwell|Blotwell]] 01:19, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Luck in chess ==

The article states "Some games, such as chess, have no luck involved."
This is only true in theory. Chess is a deterministic game, that is the desicion tree for all chess games can be (trivialy) constructed. However to represent the desicion tree more bits than atoms in the universe must be used. Therefore it is not practical to construct. Hence there must be luck involved in playing chess.
Søren Olesen (2. nov 2005)

:Not any more luck than me touching my nose with my index finger.  It can't be proved that a bird won't swoop down between the two, or that I'll live long enough to complete the task.  Using your definition, luck becomes a meaningless term.  There is no 'luck' involved in playing chess as most boardgamers define the term.  It's a random element of the game that has the potential to benefit some while hindering others, or only affecting a subset of the total player base.  Chaos is a related but different term, often confused with luck.  Chaos is the inability to predict the flow of the game.  Chess might have chaos, but it certainly doesn't have what most people refer to as luck.  I suppose all multiplayer games have a certain amout of chaos.  Eric Mowrer (2 Nov 2005)
::What is the difference between ''luck'' and ''random element'' ? Søren Olesen (3. nov 2005)

:Søren, the "atoms in the universe" description helps visualize the complexity of chess for sure, but I don't think supports anything on the luck vs. strategy front.  Why do you presume that a player needs to render a decision tree or any portion of it in their head in order (or elsewhere) to make a non-luck-based decision?  A decision tree (if complete and followed without mistake) ''could'' lead to optimal play in chess.  However, to act strategically does not require full knowledge of optimal actions.  Or do you believe otherwise? --[[User:Ds13|Ds13]] 17:16, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
::''Why do you presume that a player needs to render a decision tree or any portion of it in their head in order (or elsewhere) to make a non-luck-based decision?'' Because it is the only way to prove that the move was ''the'' optimal move. The definition from the article states ''One way of defining board games are between those based upon luck and strategy''. I have showed that it is not possible to play optimally in chess, therefore there must be luck involved. Søren Olesen (3. nov 2005)
:::I disagree.  Lack of optimal play does not mean lack of strategic play.  Playing optimally can, sometimes, be proven mathematically and optimal play would appear to be the best strategy if the knowledge (and brainpower or CPU time) is available.  '''Playing strategically means playing with a plan, and that plan need not be optimal.'''  In complex games, warfare, business, etc. strategies can rarely be proven to be optimal or not yet the fact that one is following a plan, intending to achieve a goal, means they are playing strategically. --[[User:Ds13|Ds13]] 16:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

== Ordering of external links ==

This article is rather vulnerable to link spam.  Anybody with board games to sell, or ads that they want readers to see, is tempted to put their own links in the external link-lists at the end of this article.

Just now an editor added a link to the front of the '''Play online''' section.  There were about a dozen links there already.  Why should the new link get to go first?  It's true that we don't have a clear guideline for the order of the external links, but it seemed odd to put a new link in front of all the others.  I suspected link spam, but I checked the link to make sure.  It turned out I was wrong: the new link led to a modest Java chessboard with a couple of unobtrusive Google ads.  Nothing horrid.

But still, my intuition is that proud page-owners should get in line.  Put new links at the ''end'', please.  A link added at the front of a list is a warning sign of spam, and an editor could be forgiven for reverting it without checking.  [[User:ACW|ACW]] 15:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

== Strange sentence ==

The article contains the following sentence:

: The rise of computers has also led to a relative decline in the most complicated board games, as they require less space, and are easier to set up and clear away.

I do not understand what it tries to say. Does the sentence mean that computer games have replaced complicated board games, since computer games require less space and are easier to set up and clear away? Or that computerized versions of complicated board games have replaced cardboard versions of complicated board games? Or that people prefer complicated board games to simple board games, since complicated games require less space and are easier to set up and clear away? (Well, at least go and chess are such complicated board games.) Or that computers have somehow affected people so that they want to have things that require more space and are more difficult to set up and clear away? (The last theory would at least explain the popularity of Microsoft products.)[[User:Punainen Nörtti|Punainen Nörtti]] 12:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I assumed that it meant games like Dungeons and Dragons or large war simulations had declined in popularity since computer games can handle all the bookkeeping details of large simulations. I clarified the sentence like so:
: The rise of computers has also led to a relative decline in the most complicated board games, as computers require less space, and the games don't have to be set up and cleared away.
[[User:Don Kirkby|Don Kirkby]] 20:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I also want to challenge this. Complex games, such as 18xx, Titan, Advanced Civilization, etc, are easier to play on the computer, than in person. That's not a relative decline, that's helpful.
[[User:Keybounce|Keybounce]] ([[User talk:Keybounce|talk]]) 20:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== "You Play It" ==

An anonymous editor added a link to the "Online Play" subsection of the "External Links" section.  It feels like a borderline adlink to me.  The referenced site seems fairly benign, but it's (free) registration-only, and I could not assess the content without registering.  I didn't register.

Probably the link was inserted by people affiliated with the "You Play It" site.  This isn't intrinsically bad, I hasten to emphasize, though I was a little put off by the repetition of some ad-like verbiage ("many famous games") from the site's splash page.  Despite the phrase "many famous games", the splash page lists only about half a dozen, none of which I had heard of.

So, anyway, I toned down the adspeak a little, and fixed a punctuation error, and left the link in.  What should happen next is that some intrepid neutral editor should register at "You Play It" and make sure that everything is on the up-and-up.  I'm afraid I'm feeling rather extrepid tonight. [[User:ACW|ACW]] 02:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

== Link spam ==
My apologies to the good people at azumos online, but it looked like a small site selling board games. It didn't appear to have any features that allow you to play or discuss board games.

What's the etiquette for removing something that looks like link spam? Justify it in the discussion page, or just nuke it and wait for it to come back if it's valid?

[[User:Don Kirkby|Don Kirkby]] 20:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

==find purely luck based games such as Top Trumps quite boring==
I don't quite comprehend how Top Trumps is purely luck. Anybody who has played the game knows that whilst the cards are dealt randomly you will have to use your 'skill' to choose the most appropriate attribute to compare against your opponent. Whilst there is luck on whether or not they have a better card than you, you do have an influence on the outcome of the game by your choices.

Don't particularly care either way whether this stays or not, but I would say a game such as snakes & ladders is a much better example of purely luck-based gaming (unless someone wants to suggest that one can throw a dice with  degree of accuracy). [[User:Ny156uk|ny156uk]] 19:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

:Done. Good suggestion. <span style="font-family:serif;">&mdash;[[User:Ptkfgs|ptk]]✰[[User_talk:Ptkfgs|fgs]]</span> 23:54, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

== Game piece (or token or bit) ==

surely you have missed out "counter". that is a far more common term for a game piece than token or bit, at least where i'm from.

== [[WP:OR]] on Lucky, Strategy, and Diplomacy Section ==

I'm not an expert in board games, but this section smacks of [[WP:OR]].  It definitely needs sources and to get away from the passive voice.  For example the opening sentence: "One way to categorize board games is to distinguish ..." fails to answer the question of 'Who is doing this categorizing?' [[User:Burzmali|Burzmali]] 20:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

== LCD boardgame ==

The [[Phillips]] [[Entertaible]] may soon revolutionise board games and make it possible to play a huge number of them at lower costs (lcd-screen only needs to be purchased once). As such, it should be included into the article.

Info on this:
*[http://www.geek.com/phillips-creates-concept-lcd-board-game-system/ info on entertaible by geek.com]
*[http://www.research.philips.com/newscenter/archive/2006/060104-entertaible.html Phillips's official press release]

Thanks
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] ([[User talk:KVDP|talk]]) 09:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

:I don't know if this should be added to this article, or how it should be brought up if it is to be added.  Here are the points that I see for adding/not adding it:
:*For: It is an up-and-coming "board game" technology that has the potential of revolutionizing how board games are played.
:*Against: It isn't out yet, it is from a single company (and could be seen as advertising), and it isn't technically a "board" game.
:Let's discuss this and see if a consensus develops before we add it. &mdash; [[User:Val42|Val42]] ([[User talk:Val42|talk]]) 18:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

If and when it manages to "revolutionise board games", we could consider adding a link to its existing article.  Currently, it seems much less influential than computer game versions of Risk, Monopoly, Settlers, etc. which do not appear in the article.  [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 19:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

== Mancala is not a race game ==

Mancala is falsly classified a race game her. The "sowing" of the game pieces (usually seeds) is movement along a circular track, but there is no start, finish etc. Players each own half of the board and the pieces alternate between those halves. No racing invlolved. Mancala is an abstract strategy game with a focus on counting.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/82.94.24.242|82.94.24.242]] ([[User talk:82.94.24.242|talk]]) 15:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Xiangqi in timeline ==

The timeline claims the first reference to Xiangqi is around 79BC.  However, the  [[History of Chess]] article says [[Xiangqi]] arose from [[Chaturanga]] after 600AD.  Xiangqi entry in time lines either needs to be cited or removed. [[User:Readin|Readin]] ([[User talk:Readin|talk]]) 01:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

== Game history ==

''Taken out of comments embedded in the actual page....''

And can we please have some descriptions/definitions of things, instead of just making lists of non-English words? For all I know, these are games where Indians and Iranians throw Sno-Cones at each other.  Come on. -[[User:Sugarbat|SB]] 15 September 2008

:Many of these missing citations can be found within H J R Murray 'History of Board Games other than Chess' p 12 to 36 and footnotes to the relevant reports of excavations etc are given there. --[[User:Salisbury-99|Salisbury-99]] 17 September 2008

::I think we can all agree that the current history section is atrocious. I started work on [[User:Rindis/Sandbox|completely redoing]] it at one point, but haven't gotten anywhere to speak of. Anyone who wants to go in and propose a draft, or sections, or whatever should feel free to do so.

::My main thought is to drop the 'laundry list' completely. A lot of the ancient stuff should go. (At least as long it's here. A separate [[History of board games]] article would have room for it all.--that blue link is a redirect to here...) We should demonstrate that the origins of board games are lost in the mists of time, but we don't have to beat people over the head  with it. From there we can go on to things a little more relevant to the current perception of board games. A full history needs doing, but for this ''general'' article, we need something that's a jumping off point.

::If we can put together a readable history section, it'll do a lot to make this article something that I won't be embarrassed to see in Wikipedia 0.7, which this just got auto-nominated for. --[[User:Rindis|Rindis]] ([[User talk:Rindis|talk]]) 16:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

::: Based on the above comments, I would like (soon) to temporarily reinstate the comment about many citations available in the Murray book. A precis of those 24 pages, amended where possible by more recent work, should be the guts of the article. Should the citation be to Murray or to the Murray-citation? If to the Murray citation, then what is the advice on where a citation should end? For example should references to Freud's casework be to the notes of the actual case or to the book where it is written about? [[User:Salisbury-99|Salisbury-99]] ([[User talk:Salisbury-99|talk]]) 08:26, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

::::If you're reading about Freud in Murray, cite Murray (even for a direct quote), if you go find Freud's work and have it in front of you, cite that. Basically, cite what you have. Also, the talk about where info for the article can be found is talking about ''the article'', not the subject of the article, and ''that's'' what this talk page is ''for''. A "further reading" section mentioning his work would be fine. (Which I see we already have.)
::::As for citing, use an in-line cite, presumably using the <nowiki>{{</nowiki>cite book}} template. give the reference a name (you can see that done in the ''Senet'' reference), and then every time you use it again, just give "<nowiki><ref name="example" /></nowiki>", and it will reference the same footnote. I believe you shouldn't need to give a (same) reference more than once a paragraph. We'll work it out once we start work, but go see [[WP:CIT]] and [[WP:FOOT]]. ~_^ --[[User:Rindis|Rindis]] ([[User talk:Rindis|talk]]) 16:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

== overall ==

I find the introduction oversimplified and yet there is unnecessary detail.  The second sentence is ghastly and meaningless. <br />
I no longer like the sequence of sections. I will be working on a revision asap. Where is the best place to put this for comment and some chance of consensus?
:Intro<br />
:Categories<br />
:Common Terms<br />
:Timeline (and so able to refer to categories)<br />
:Alternative Categorisation - Luck, Skill, Strategy <br />
:Further Reading<br />
:Links<br />

I would hope that more 'meaningful' pictures could be obtained especially for the top. [[User:Salisbury-99|Salisbury-99]] ([[User talk:Salisbury-99|talk]]) 08:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
:That doesn't sound bad, though I would say 'history' instead of 'timeline'. I think a general prose overview is to be much preferred in such a general article than a list of dates that will make the new reader's eyes skip to the next section (or just glaze over completely. Though, perhaps alternative categorization should be a subsection of 'categories'. Give a way to do it, and then give the alternate methods, instead of coming ''back'' to the subject later.
:What do you think a 'meaningful' picture would be? Not that we can't do better, I just don't know what you have in mind. --[[User:Rindis|Rindis]] ([[User talk:Rindis|talk]]) 15:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

:: I have done a re-sort and chop at my own talk-page. Have a look. (By the way, do you assess that R C Bell is 'notable' or not?). [[User:Salisbury-99|Salisbury-99]] ([[User talk:Salisbury-99|talk]]) 07:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

:::R. C. Bell sounds like he ''should'' be notable, assuming that the books listed are considered authoritative/informative on the subject (which I assume to be the case). But, the best way to be considered notable on Wikipedia is to find outside references that talk about the subject. So, say you find a book about board games that mentions Bell's work. If it ''also'' says a couple things about Bell himself, you can put that info on the page, cite it, and do a lot for establishing notability. There's further guidelines for people at [[WP:BIO]], but I don't know much about them.

:::Article: In general, I'm not ''happy'' with your version, but it is certainly an ''improvement'' (of course, I've put lots of effort into [[wargaming]], and I'm not happy with it). Note that you can make subpages off of your userpage, such as [[User:Rindis/Sandbox]], which is where I store my drafts-to-be-worked-on. I think it might be easier for you to work on drafts that way. Also, it would be best to trim out the administrative stuff like categories in your draft, so that your talk page doesn't get listed at [[:Category:Board games]]. There's a bunch of niggling grammar problems and the such, but that kind of cleanup can wait until the ''content'' is in shape. Comments by section (many of which are coming straight out of the current article...):

:::*In the interests of simplicity for the reader, I would still avoid a separate bullet mention of miniatures and RPGs, and their relationship with board wargames. Each bullet point should be ''a category'' of board games. We don't have to give all the relationships between various types of tabletop games all at once.

:::*I would define boards as [[rectangular]] (I can't think of any odd-shaped boards that also aren't quadrilateral anyway.) Also, there are articles for [[counter (board wargames)]] and [[hex map]] that can be linked to.

:::*The history section has become a laundry list of ancient games, and should be more of an overview of 'board games through the ages'. Maybe someday I'll actually get to writing on that. :P

:::*Recent changes sounds like it could become an interesting section. I don't know where the pinball stuff is coming from though....

:::*Psycology ''is'' incomplete. However, it's a subject that hasn't gotten a lot of attention, so I don't know how much can be said. :(

:::Hope that helps some! --[[User:Rindis|Rindis]] ([[User talk:Rindis|talk]]) 17:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

== "Ball" board games ==

Given the advent of Velcro, there are games played on a round, ball-shaped board.

The one I have seen (and used to own before it got lost) was called "O". It had 12, 24, or 30 velcro spaces (depending on the size), and half were covered by each person's pieces. Play was much like checkers -- you jump pieces, but instead of removing them from the game, you took one piece off the top of the stack, and put it underneath your moving stack. A stack with many of your pieces on top was strong (hard to capture), but the only way to get that was to feed into an enemy stack, and then recapture it.

Unlike games where you gain an increasing power overwhelm as you capture more stuff, in this game capturing too much, too quickly will hurt you.

I do not know if there are any other "ball" games like this, but not all board games are on flat boards.
[[User:Keybounce|Keybounce]] ([[User talk:Keybounce|talk]]) 20:58, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

== Play Jiroft Board game ==
We developed the Jiroft game.  I placed the direct link in external link section but someone has deleted.<!--Link to Play: http://539bc.com/vip/jiroftgame/index.html--><span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.26.6.140|86.26.6.140]] ([[User talk:86.26.6.140|talk]]) 03:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:This is not the place to advertise your board game. Please take a look at [[WP:ELNO]]. --[[User:McGeddon|McGeddon]] ([[User talk:McGeddon|talk]]) 11:22, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

== Board Game Geek is the best resource ==

I don't know why someone removed [http://www.boardgamegeek.com Board Game Geek] from external resources, but it's one of the best resources on the internet about board games and was rightfully linked on this page. I propose to returned it back and will do so if nobody will provide reasonable cont-arguments.

Here's the link to the change that was made: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Board_game&diff=prev&oldid=334178690

--[[User:Sergey Chernyshev|Sergey Chernyshev]] ([[User talk:Sergey Chernyshev|talk]]) 21:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

:I've restored the link. Presumably the unregistered editor wanted to avoid a long list of fan sites, but BoardGameGeek is as appropriate a link for this article as the [http://www.imdb.com/ Internet Movie Database] is for [[film]]. [[User:EALacey|EALacey]] ([[User talk:EALacey|talk]]) 08:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

==Kurna myth==
Some would-be encyclopedians continue to insert wrong information. These vandals should be banned.


'''About the Kurna myth:'''

''"According to R. C. Bell, the earliest known board for the game includes diagonal lines and was "cut into the roofing slabs of the temple at Kurna in Egypt" c. 1400 BCE.[10] However, Friedrich Berger writes that some of the diagrams at Qurna include Coptic crosses, making it "doubtful" that the diagrams date to 1400 BCE. Berger concludes, "certainly they cannot be dated."[1]""''

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Men%27s_Morris#History


''"The Kurna (or Qurna) Temple graffiti were published by Parker in 1909 (although his book dealt with... Ceylon!) and were reproduced, with some slight "improvements", by Murray in his book "A History of Board Games other than Chess" (1952). Since then nobody has seen them! Some archaeologists with an interest in board-game history have tried to find them but found only a few of them, and their conclusion is that they cannot be dated with certainty. One of these designs (reproduced by Parker and, after a drastic simplification, by Murray) appears to be Coptic! Others are better related to Roman board games... None of the so-called "mancala" boards have been observed! All egyptologists say they have never encountered anything like mancala in the rich Egyptian tradition of table games. We cannot relie on such a poor evidence.''

''In fact the earliest certain data we have on mancala games come from Axum (Ethiopia) and would date from the 6th-7th century AD. Archaeologists found there, during excavations, some 'gabata' boards made with clay and easy to date with the context. According to Pankhurst and others Ethiopia is likely to be the birthplace of mancalas but this doesn't seem to have happened before the Christian era."''

Source: Thierry Depaulis Paris, France -- Board Game Studies Editor

--[[Special:Contributions/93.193.107.236|93.193.107.236]] ([[User talk:93.193.107.236|talk]]) 10:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

== History ==
I think some clarity is required here especially with respect to the timeline cited.
I think that a clearer declaration of what is being used for the timelines.
What counts as the game being identified as the game itself.
First - the exclusion of Oware / Mancala from the timeline should be clearly stated. Since it is the oldest known game and is in its current form played on a board.
Second - Some of the references are from sources that although widely quoted are questionable in view of partiality. (Consider is it likely that a die was invented before a draughts piece)
Third - Backgammon according to a book in the 1960s is only about 200 years old the other forms of dice race games only have a tenuous connection to the game.
Obviously other than the written records of Go it is difficult when dealing with issues more than ~2500 years ago but some clear indication is needed.
([[User:Tetron76|Tetron76]] ([[User talk:Tetron76|talk]]) 19:26, 13 June 2010 (UTC))
== Luck, strategy and diplomacy ==
This section makes mainly valid points, but it is the exclusion of various strategies that makes the whole section questionable. It would be possible to add various refs but I am concerned this might be more misleading by giving an implied endorsement.
([[User:Tetron76|Tetron76]] ([[User talk:Tetron76|talk]]) 19:26, 13 June 2010 (UTC))

In the picture it says that Damah (Dama?) requires luck as well as strategy. If this is the same game as Dama (Turkish Draughts), I don't see how you can justify it requiring luck at all. Its a perfect information abstract strategy game. Unless someone can cite Damah being different from Dama, I'm going to change it and link it to [[Turkish Checkers]]. [[User:T0afer|T0afer]] ([[User talk:T0afer|talk]]) 16:31, 3 September 2020 (UTC)T0afer

==File:Men Playing Board Games.jpg Nominated for Deletion==
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== Pictures ==

This article has only two pictures depicting modern board games, and neither of them shows the actual board. This article is called "Board game", not "History of board games". [[User:JIP|<span style="color:#CC0000;">J</span><span style="color:#00CC00;">I</span><span style="color:#0000CC;">P</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 18:12, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
:Good point. They're great pictures, but they really don't match the amount of weight given in the article text. --[[User:McGeddon|McGeddon]] ([[User talk:McGeddon|talk]]) 18:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
:: Ok, I will add some pictures of board games. [[User:Geraldshields11|Geraldshields11]] ([[User talk:Geraldshields11|talk]]) 00:03, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

== How abstract is Scrabble? ==

Well, I didn't think this would require a talk page discussion, but here goes: '''Scrabble''' has recently been added to this sentence in the article lead paragraphs:
<blockquote>Their representation of real-life situations can range from having no inherent theme (e.g. [[checkers]], [[scrabble]]), to having a specific theme and narrative (e.g. ''[[Cluedo]]'').</blockquote>
I reverted it out, and my reversion has been reverted. My reasoning for removing Scrabble from this sentence seems to have been misapprehended. Scrabble is indeed a board game. But here it is being used as an exemplar of a board game that has ''no'' "inherent theme" and by implication ''no'' "representation of real-life". As I tried to explain in my edit summary, the fact that letters and words are a primary component of this game -- even though they are indeed being used abstractly -- makes this game impinge on "real life" more strongly than, say, checkers; also the game resembles -- by design -- a crossword puzzle, so that in a limited sense Scrabble presents precisely a "representation of real-life". Don't get me wrong: Scrabble is actually pretty abstract. But it is ''not'' so utterly abstract that it should serve as a defining exemplar in the lead paragraphs of this article. 
I am not an edit warrior, so I will not be re-reverting. I will hope my reasoning is solid enough for someone else to bother to fix this. [[User:Phil wink|Phil wink]] ([[User talk:Phil wink|talk]]) 16:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
: To be honest I didn't read it properly. Scrabble doesn't need to be in the article. Scrabble taken back out. No hard feelings. [[User:Jkmaskell|Jkmaskell]] ([[User talk:Jkmaskell|talk]]) 16:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

== More references needed ==

I've added some refs and a new market section. I couldn't find numbers for European/German market size, and what I found may suffer from differing definitions of what is a board game market (ex. are card games included or not...), but it's a start. Some sources I found can be used to reference rest of the article, which is mostly unreferenced and seems to suffer from much [[WP:OR]]. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 05:26, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

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== Amer ==

Seda [[User:Seda5599|Seda5599]] ([[User talk:Seda5599|talk]]) 17:47, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

== Tidying up this article ==

Guys this article is an absolute mess from start to finish. Even in the opening sentence - ''is'' a board game necessarily a tabletop game? Both 'Mafia' and 'Sudoku' are listed as samples of different types of board games under the categories heading, neither of which are tabletop games. Also in the lead section, Dungeons and Dragons is listed - undeniably a tabletop game, but to say it's a board game is tenuous at best, apart from the spin off board game version which is not well known.

Further, the categories section is horrendous to look at - perhaps we should consider making a separate list of board game categories?

Over the next while, I'm going to do some serious rearranging of this article, but please talk to me if you think I do something wrong or go too far.

Cheers, [[User:Xx78900|Xx78900]] ([[User talk:Xx78900|talk]]) 09:08, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
:The problem of definitions is a complex one. For example, the are board games that don't have a board, for example card games, which are classified (for example by Woods in his book on Eurogames, the only in-depth academic study of modern games I am aware of) as board games. You can play some games with an app too. There are party games that blur the line between board and action, consider charades and such. I think role-playing games are not board games, they are a separate type of gaming but both rpgs and board games (which include card games, miniature games, wargames, and such) would fall under tabletop games. But it would be good to double check what, if anything, Woods says on this, IMHO his book is the only one which may contain any academic-level  methodology. (If you don't have it, I am reasonably sure it's on lib gen). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]]&#124;[[User talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> reply here</span>]]</sub> 09:48, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

== Lead section description ==

[[User:Phil_wink|Phil_wink]] Hi Phil, thanks for redacting my line about cards, as I'm really uncertain as to how I want to phrase the section about not requiring a board. However, if you consider games such as One Night Ultimate Werewolf, Coup, or Love Letters, while all of these are card games, they don't play at all like standard card games, and are more similar to board games, particularly Werewolf. Any thoughts about a line explaining what games can be considered 'board games' without the actual inclusion of a board (nor indeed, specifically mentioning cards)?  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Xx78900|Xx78900]] ([[User talk:Xx78900#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Xx78900|contribs]]) 17:46, 5 March 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:(For background: I haven't played Werewolf, but I'm slightly familiar with Coup and more so with Love Letters.) The definition of "board game" -- if there ever was, or can be one -- has always been a little fuzzy around the edges. Naturally, the last few decades have only fuzzed it up more. But if the definition is stretched such that Love Letters, which is manifestly a card game, is included, then I don't believe the term has a useful meaning any longer. Just because new card games don't feel like old card games, doesn't make them board games. There are other overarching terms for this kind of category; I think "mind games" is one of the better and more prominent ones (though obviously not unproblematic itself). As you can see from the top of the talk page, a certain Wikipedian community early on sprung for "Board and Table Games".
:* So first, I personally would recommend that the lead paragraph stick to a more central definition, and if liminal cases need to be addressed, then perhaps a separate section below might deal with the fuzzy edges.
:* Second, if I had to provide a principled definition, it would be something in the nature of: "a game in which the discrete positions of pieces relative to each other and/or to a shared matrix, moved and/or placed by chance and/or skill, but not dependent upon physical power or dexterity, determine or at least contribute substantially to the state of gameplay." I mean, that's bloody horrible to read, but I think it's a fairly decent approximation of what a board game is and isn't.
:* But concrete examples might be better. (Another reason that we might want to keep the fuzzy edges out of the lead paragraph -- to do meaningful justice to the liminal examples, they'd probably have to dominate the entire opening!) By my lights, '''Cribbage''' is not a board game, even though competing pieces are moved discretely along a board; this is because the pieces do not determine or even contribute to the state of the game... they merely ''display its results''. '''Pool''' isn't a board game (though plainly pieces are positioned on a matrix), because dexterity and power are required to move the pieces (and possibly because the movements aren't discrete, but this part of my definition may be the most arguable). '''Love Letters''' is not a board game because no relative positions are involved in the game's state. '''Dominoes''', at least the games I've played, does seem to be a board game, because the pieces must be placed on a virtual matrix, and their position relative to each other is significant -- likewise the modern and boardless tile game '''Carcassonne'''. But of course "tile" games like '''Mahjong''' and '''Rummikub''' are really card games played with tiles. It is not clear to me that '''Dungeons and Dragons''' is a board game, although it just might be because of the map, and battle-reenactment games on complex hex terrains must surely be. '''Trivial Pursuit''', yes, even though most of the action takes place off the board. '''Codenames'''? I say no, as the pieces (though positioned significantly in a matrix) are not mobile and their positions are not significant to the actual state of the game, only to grouping for the readers and obscuring the grouping for the guessers.
:* The best discussion I recall reading (and it's still probably not good enough) is the first chapter of David Parlett's [https://archive.org/details/oxfordhistoryofb0000parl Oxford History of Board Games], which is also now back in print. I warmly recommend the whole book, though it is famously underwhelming for just the types of modern games that perhaps you're most interested in.
: This of course is all just my opinion... my brilliant and (I'll say it) incredibly good-looking opinion. Sorry for the novel, and good luck on the overhaul! [[User:Phil wink|Phil wink]] ([[User talk:Phil wink|talk]]) 21:26, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

:: Firstly, thanks for the detailed response, I greatly appreciate the time you've taken to contribute your two cents on my attempt to spruce up this article!
:: Second, I actually agree with everything you're saying - in taking such an issue with the given description as being too rigid, I felt I needed to provide an example of outlying games, and I see now that it's possibly extraneous. 
::Thanks for changing my mind! 
::[[User:Xx78900|Xx78900]] ([[User talk:Xx78900|talk]]) 23:01, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

== Donko ==

There was a board game in the 19th century called ''Donko!'' Not much is known about it since the rules were lost around 1880, but I assure you that it was a thing. It could be played on top of a steamer trunk as well as on a dedicated game board.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:00sClassicGamerFan|00sClassicGamerFan]] ([[User talk:00sClassicGamerFan#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/00sClassicGamerFan|contribs]]) 19:56, 22 October 2021 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Insubstantial new paragraph ==

The newly added paragraph at the end of the lead section has various problems:
*It makes assertions that are not supported by text in the body of the article, nor (as far as I know) by any of the sources cited in the article:
:*the claim that [[Monopoly (game)|Monopoly]] "now looks outdated to most players";
:*the claim that "many modern card games are regarded as part of the board games hobby";
:*the claim that "games like the beautifully-illustrated [[Wingspan]] have opened the hobby up to many new players."
*It uses jargon that is neither defined nor used in the body of the article: "'beer-and-pretzel' and party games, to worker placement or tableau-laying games".
*It uses puffery: "growing social hobby"; "new themes and mechanics developing all the time"; "something for everyone"; "beautifully-illustrated".

It seems like there might be potential for improving the article by adding more substantial content about the topics that are mentioned.  I considered that the paragraph had to be scrapped until that could be done, so I removed it.  My removal has been reverted, so I'm coming to this talk page.  [[User:Bruce leverett|Bruce leverett]] ([[User talk:Bruce leverett|talk]]) 02:03, 10 April 2022 (UTC)