View source for Talk:Herod Agrippa

{{FailedGA|22:47, 19 December 2022 (UTC)|page=1|subtopic=World history}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|living=no|class=B|listas=Herod Agrippa|1=
{{WikiProject Biography|royalty-work-group=yes |royalty-priority=low|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=low}}
{{WikiProject Jewish history|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Ancient Near East|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Rome |importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Bible|importance=mid}}
}}

== the Jews placing little precedent toward the Judean kings installed by Rome ==
What does this even mean in English?
Furthermore, where are the supposed 'different views' in the sentence "Christian and Jewish historiography take different views of this king, with the Christians largely opposing Agrippa and the Jews placing little precedent toward the Judean kings installed by Rome"?

== Herod Philip I did not rule ==

The article says Agrippa succeeded Herod Philip I, but this is incorrect.  Herod Philip I was one of four sons who survived Herod the Great.  The other three were Archaleus, Herod Antipas, and Philip (the younger).  It is with the younger Philip that confusion between the two is common.  Herod the Great submitted a will to Rome dividing up the kingdom upon his death into four parts, i.e. tetrarchies (tetra meaning four, of course).  However, Herod Philip I, a Roman ex-patriot for most of his life, abdicated, either forcibly or voluntarily, and never ruled, at any time, any part of the country.   Augustus made the decision to install only three sons. Consequently, Herod Philip I's tetrarchy was consolidated into his brother Archaleus' tetrarchy, whereupon the latter was given the title of "Ethnarch" of the two larger southern tetrarchies that covered Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem and across the Jordan River to the south including all the area surrounding the Dead Sea.  The other Philip, most often called "Philip the Tetrarch" in order to distinguish him from his brother who was never a tetrarch, was the actual ruler of Gaulinitis, Trachonitis, etc., i.e. the northeastern tetarchy that bordered only the eastern shores of the Sea of Galilee across from the northwest tetrarchy of Herod Antipas that stretched from the western shores of the sea out to the Mediterranean coast.
[[User:Pvsalsedo|Pvsalsedo]] 11:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

==Original name ==

''His original name was Marcus Julius Agrippa, and is mistakenly called Herod in Acts.'' Is he not M. Julius Herod Agrippa? How is he named on his coins?  [[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 20:52, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
:Herod is the name used historically by many to mean the king of Judea around the first century. So I think its not wrong to say that Agrippa is King Herod. There are just many King Herods other that him.  [[User:Eraser78|Eraser78]] 20:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::He is called Herod only in Acts.  He is Agrippa on the coins and elsewhere.  [[User:Fordmadoxfraud|Ford MF]] ([[User talk:Fordmadoxfraud|talk]]) 17:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

== Which Herod? ==
The article says: the kingdom of Chalcis in Lebanon was at his request given to his brother Herod
Which [[Herod]] is that? [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 21:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
:It seems he is known as [[Herod of Chalcis]]. [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 17:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

== Angel? ==
" But God sent an angel, and the angel released Peter from prison."
This is historically acurate?

:Clearly, "according to [[Acts of the Apostles|Acts]] 12:7–11" is to be understood here. [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 23:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 
Perhaps the "angel" mentions and other Bible related mythological titbits could go in a separate section? They’re perfectly valid and extremely interesting, but I really think they should be demonstrably distinct from more prosaic, ordinary, historical information.  [[User:Ozoneocean|OzoneO]] 23:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

:Yes. More reliable histories (e.g. Josephus) should surely take precedence over religious legends, especially as this is an article about Agrippa, not Peter. The release of the early churchman "by an angel" is not history.

The article does not claim the angel is historical, the article claims that ''Acts of the Apostles'' mentions an angel. Which is true and easily verified. [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 17:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

== Son of Aristobulus? ==

The article says Agrippa I was the son of [[Aristobulus]] and [[Berenice]]. But which Aristobulus? The one linked in the article cannot be right. ''That'' Aristobulus, according to his Wikipedia article, died in 103 BC. How can he have fathered Agrippa I who was born in 10 BC? [[Aristobulus II]] died in 50 BC and [[Aristobulus III]] in 35 BC, so they're both out. The other Aristobuli in the [[Aristobulus (disambiguation)]] page are not possible candidates either. Britannica says that Herod Agripa was the son of '''Antipater''' not Aristobulus. But the only "Antipater" I could find in Wikipedia that is connected to this dynasty is [[Antipater the Idumaean]], father of [[Herod the Great]]. Does anyone have any information on the correct genealogy? --[[User:AladdinSE|AladdinSE]] 23:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

:See [[Herod the Great#Marriages and Children]]. Aristobulus was a son of Herod the Great by his wife [[Mariamne (second wife of Herod)|Mariamne]] (the first of that name). Our article [[Berenice (daughter of Salome)]] confirms this: "She married her cousin Aristobulus, who was assassinated in 6 BC; she was accused of complicity in his murder. By Aristobulus she was the mother of Herod Agrippa I." It's tough sorting out the many people with the same name in the Herodian dynasty. I note that our [[Herod]] page doesn't list all the Herods either. [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 14:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

:I note that the Jewish Virtual Library calls him "Aristobulus IV" [http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Mariamne.html] [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 19:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is the Aristobulos IV in the JVL that is the father of Agrippa I. I will alter the article to remove the wiki link to the incorrect Aristobulos. Then I'll add Aristobulos IV to the Aristobulos disambiguation page and start his own article. --[[User:AladdinSE|AladdinSE]] 22:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

== [[Anno Domini]] vs. [[Common Era]] ==

Gdr, please explain your reasons for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agrippa_I&diff=40696482&oldid=40694276 reverting]; your edit summary gave no details. Using AD ("in the year of our Lord") and BC "Before Christ" is overtly religious, and specifically Christian. Editors have been changing to "Common Era" designations all over Wikipedia for some time. --[[User:AladdinSE|AladdinSE]] 11:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

'''NOTE: As you chose to make your point on my Talk page instead of here in the article Talk page, I am quoting the discourse here, for the benefit of other editors.--[[User:AladdinSE|AladdinSE]] 17:00, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


:If you're going to go round changing era names on spurious grounds, at least get it right! Change <nowiki>[[10 BC]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[10 BCE]]</nowiki> not <nowiki>[[10]] BCE</nowiki> which mistakenly links to a date twenty years later. And CE goes after the date, not before like AD, so <nowiki>AD [[44]]</nowiki> must be changed to <nowiki>[[44]] CE</nowiki>. But really, it would be better not to edit-war over this. [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 11:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

They are not spurious grounds. I began to change "Anno Domini" to "Common Era"  etc when I noticed it was being done routinely on all sorts of articles, and I agreed with the reasoning. "In the Year of our Lord" and "Before Christ" are overtly Christian and religious and "Common Era" designations are neutral. Moreover, I find your post here on my Talk page to be straange. Why couldn't you say your peace in the actual [[Talk:Agrippa I#Anno Domini vs. Common Era|article Talk section]] I started deliberately to discuss this matter? What's more, why did you not explain your reason for reverting in the first place? As for changing ''[[10 BC]] to [[10 BCE]] not [[10]] BCE'' that is a typo you could have fixed yourself, without reverting. Since you did not, I will fix it myself. --[[User:AladdinSE|AladdinSE]] 16:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

:Sorry about commenting on your talk page, I hadn't realised you had commented here.

:On the substantive grounds, [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Eras]] says that BC/AD and BCE/CE are both acceptable. It's a point on which people can legitimately disagree, like day/month dating versus month/day dating, or "colour" vs "color". So it's not a good issue to edit war over. [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 18:39, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

If they are both acceptable, and I fixed the date-link typo, and moreover I have explained to you why I find Christian references to be less than neutral, especially in a biography of a Jewish king, then why is it OK for '''you''' edit war and revert? --[[User:AladdinSE|AladdinSE]] 18:56, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

:Since both eras are acceptable, why did you change it? And if BC/AD is less than neutral for a Jewish king, how is BCE/CE any more acceptable? Agrippa himself would probably have used [[Seleucid era]] dating. [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 20:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I explained why I changed it. It is more neutral.  BCE/CE is more acceptable in ''any'' instance, in my opinion, and in the context of a Jewish biography doubly so. "In The Year of '''Our Lord'''" has obvious objectionable connotations. As for Selucid dates, they are not included in the Manual of Style as an acceptable modern date-reference system.--[[User:AladdinSE|AladdinSE]] 10:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

:You're confusing origin of a term with its present utility. Of course BC/AD has its orgin in Christianity (as does BCE/CE). But now they are just names for eras. The same for Seleucid era dating: to Jews the Seleucids were anathema, having profaned the Temple and attempted to destroy the Jewish faith. But that didn't stop Jewish historians from using the system. [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 13:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not confusing origin with present utility. The very fact that Common Era naming has been introduced and gained acceptance in international scholarly application (as well as in Wikipedia) despite being much more recent then BC/AD, is testament to the very real modern need for religious-neutrality in naming conventions. No one is obfuscating that year zero is the birth of Jesus, only that Jesus is not "everyone's lord". As for Seleucid naming, it is all moot, as neither of us are advocating the use of this system. Nevertheless, the Romans subjugated countless nations, and most of them adopted Roman calendars and other customs. It has nothing to do with ideology, only expediency. As civilization progresses and we are no longer under the hegemony of a world-wide empire or the rule of the Church, we have leisure to modify our terminology for neutrality. That is all the Common Era is about: neutrality. --[[User:AladdinSE|AladdinSE]] 22:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

:But surely no-one is so stupid as to think that "AD" indicates any kind of advocacy or acceptance of Christianity? It's just a conventional name for a count of years. [[User talk:Gdr|Gdr]] 00:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

If no one had any objection to AD, the Common Era would never have been introduced. Different people have different opinions on what "In the Year of our Lord" advocates or does not advocate. If you think people are "stupid" for objecting to a perceived "advocacy or acceptance" then that is your own opinion. --[[User:AladdinSE|AladdinSE]] 12:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

This is childish and stupid. There are centuries of historical scholarly precedence to the AD/BC convention. Indeed, it even describes the very nature of the dating system it accompanies! –Something that the “common era” convention seems to overlook in a show of typical moronic PC cosmetics.
All intelligent people have a duty rise above such aesthetic, anti-intellectual obfuscating nonsense. If you use the Georgian dating system then use the correct associated terminology. There are other existing dating systems from non-Christian cultures which could also be used in accompaniment if that is your wish. The use of CE/BCE does NOT remove the Christian connotations or associations, it merely muddies the waters.[[User:Ozoneocean|OzoneO]] 23:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

== Disentanglement ==

The previous version of this article muddled together accounts from Josephus and Acts 12 regarding the last year of Agrippa's rule, to a rather confusing degree.  I've separated them out here into separate sections, as Josephus and the author of Acts have very different points to make about Agrippa's death.  Lest a certain someone be inclined to revert the edits, let me point out that the implication of of the previous version -- that a "zealous Jewish king would automatically want to imprison and execute Chrisitan apostles -- is anti-semitic and not supported by primary sources.  If that wording returns I '''will''' call for a bias tag and moderator intervention.  --jberkus <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/63.195.55.98|63.195.55.98]] ([[User talk:63.195.55.98|talk]]) 06:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
: If you want any such future calls to be taken seriously, you should (your apparently useful contribution not withstanding) probably register & use a WP Log-in.<br>--[[User:Jerzy|Jerzy]]•[[User talk:Jerzy|t]] 17:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)<br>

Does the whole story about Herod wanting to be Messiah in Graves's book have any accuracy? Haven't found any sources but Graves usually had some basis to his stuff. Thanks[[User:Wolf2191|Wolf2191]] 02:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
:Not to the best of my knowledge.  [[User:Fordmadoxfraud|Ford MF]] ([[User talk:Fordmadoxfraud|talk]]) 17:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

==Masonic conspiracy theories==
I found a strange conspiracy theory claiming that Herod Agrippa was the true founder of the Freemasons. The document also claims that Agrippa was the one who had Jesus crucified. I'm not at all sure if this theory is credible, but it would be perhaps be a good thing if similar accounts could be gathered in order to verify whether any additional authors have made the same claim. [http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masonry2.htm] [[User:ADM|ADM]] ([[User talk:ADM|talk]]) 12:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

== Caligula and Claudius ==

I do not understand the second half of the first sentence in Para. 2 "while he made a show of being in the interest of the Senate". Should it be 'which' instead of 'while' (i.e referring to accepting Claudius as emperor)?[[User:StanleyA1|StanleyA1]] ([[User talk:StanleyA1|talk]]) 11:39, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

== Account in Josephus - the owl ==

According to the (admittedly fictional) account in Robert Graves "Claudius the God", it was the number of times the owl hooted that portended the number of days left of life (five). Could it be that Graves got this from the same account (and therefore this should be updated?) [[User:Rchillyard|Beowulf]] ([[User talk:Rchillyard|talk]]) 17:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

== Requested move ==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: page '''moved'''. [[User:Arbitrarily0|<span style='color:black'><b><u><i><big>A</big>rbitrarily<big>0</big></i></u></b></span>]]&nbsp;<sup><b>([[User talk:Arbitrarily0|<span style="font-variant: small-caps; color:#FF4500;">talk</span>]])</b></sup> 01:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

----

[[:Agrippa I]] → {{no redirect|Herod Agrippa}} – The name by which he is commonly known as a result of Robert Graves' novels and the TV adaptation, referred to as "Herod" in the Bible so "Herod Agrippa" is a reasonable compromise, already redirects here. [[User:PatGallacher|PatGallacher]] ([[User talk:PatGallacher|talk]]) 23:57, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as most common. [[User:Cynwolfe|Cynwolfe]] ([[User talk:Cynwolfe|talk]]) 16:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per UCN. [[User:Red Slash|<span style="color:#FF4131;">Red </span>]][[User talk:Red Slash|<b style="color:#460121;">Slash</b>]] 18:31, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. Definitely the most common name. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 13:27, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[WP:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

== Why the anti-religious bigotry?  ==
As an historian, I would like to see if anyone here would like to justify the following absurd comment that is affixed to this article: 

"This article improperly uses one or more religious texts as primary sources without referring to secondary sources that critically analyze them. Please help improve this article by adding references to reliable secondary sources, with multiple points of view." (January 2015)

Are we seriously being asked to assume that "religious" texts (whatever that means -- see the appendix to Peter Berger's The Sacred Canopy on the difficulty of defining "religion" and therefore the complexities of taking this term as simplistically offered here) are inherently iffy?  Presumably unlike some other, presumably secular, sources?  

Religious belief, however we define it, is not a measure of reliability.  Nor is the lack thereof, if there be such a creature.  Indeed, one is hard-pressed to find many ancient historical accounts that lack some sort of religious bias -- or modern accounts, if one defines "religion" in one of Berger's second set of senses.  

Luke is a pretty good historian for his times, and dozens of facts he describes have been confirmed.  That he was a Christian, is no cause to dismiss his testimony, or to call it into particular question, as opposed to "secular" ancient historians, if such can be found.  Of course one wishes for multiple accounts and critical readings of all ancient stories, but not because they are "religious," whatever that is supposed to mean.  <small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/206.225.132.111|206.225.132.111]] ([[User talk:206.225.132.111|talk]]) 05:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::That template is just the religion-specific version of Wikipedia's general [[Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources|primary sourcing policy]].  Not sure whether it really applies to this article, but you can't usually use a Bible verse as a footnoted reference, for example... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 16:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

== Adding the Era CE instead of AD in the lead paragraph ==

'''Question:''' Would fellow editors here agree (per [[WP:CON]]) that we add the more common Era known as [[Common Era|CE]] instead of AD for dates? This is becoming almost standard practice on Wikipedia. Your advice please.[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 15:35, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
:No. It may be common on articles of certain topics that ''you'' happen to edit, but it is not becoming "almost standard practice on Wikipedia". 
:Most people in the English-speaking world do not know what "CE" means, and so "AD" is better. '''[[User:Tahc|tahc]]''' '''<sup>[[User talk:Tahc|chat]]</sup>''' 16:17, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
::Are you sure about that? CE is the abbreviation for our [[Common Era]], and it is neutral. Many English readers do not think of our era in terms of the "year of our lord" ([[anno domini]]), but only as a reference point in time, starting 2016 years ago. That same reference point in time applies to CE (which begins 2016 years ago), although neutral as far a religious undertones are concerned. This is better for Wikipedia articles which cater to people of different religions. Can we get other opinions here?[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 19:40, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

:Yes, many English readers do ''not'' think of our era in terms of the "year of our Lord" or anything religious, and yet they (also) still don't know what "CE" or "Common Era" means. It is better for Wikipedia articles which use terms and abbreviations that people do understand. '''[[User:Tahc|tahc]]''' '''<sup>[[User talk:Tahc|chat]]</sup>''' 19:55, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

::So far, it is only you and I who dispute this. In many scientific and academic journals, CE / BCE are becoming the standard usage in dating. See [[WP:Era]]. Let's just wait and get more feedback on this important issue. Giving a link to [[Common Era|CE]] (as this) will also help our uneducated readers.[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 13:22, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
:::I dispute it. CE and BCE are the kind of niceties visited upon us by the Woke. They amount to revisionism, which is often no more than an expression of contrarian opinion.
:::My own reading of present and pre-existing historical literature, which is not un-extensive given my profession, shows that AD and BC are not only accepted but acceptable. [[Special:Contributions/110.174.255.160|110.174.255.160]] ([[User talk:110.174.255.160|talk]]) 06:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
::::They seem needlessly offensive, and Jesus is not our [[Dominus (title)|dominus]].  [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 21:21, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

This has been discussed many times before on Wikipedia, originally leading to [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/BCE-CE_Debate|an official proposal back in 2005 to standardize Common Era]] that failed. The current consensus, as you should know from having cited [[WP:ERA]], is to use one era consistently within an article, and not change it without consensus. I see no reason to change it here, and in fact I see no reason to change ANY established era format from one to the other in any article on Wikipedia, since there's no valid argument that holds water for me. They are interchangeable and mean the same thing, so whichever one the first editor uses should be used permanently. There's no "Christian bias" in using BC/AD any more than there's a pagan bias in using [[Thursday]] or [[January]] instead of any potentially religiously-neutral alternative (which the Quakers did come up with, but these never took off like BCE/CE). Also, BCE/CE are not "becoming standard" on Wikipedia, what makes you think this? We use BC/AD for many high-importance articles like [[Ancient Rome]], [[Ancient Egypt]], [[Julius Caesar]], not to mention years and centuries like [[1 BC]] and [[1st millennium BC]]. — '''[[User talk:Crumpled Fire|<span style="font-family:Lucida Fax;"><span style="color:#2695A9;">Crumpled Fire</span></span>]]'''<small> • ''[[Special:Contributions/Crumpled Fire|contribs]]'' •</small> 20:38, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
:::I never said that its use was all-invasive, but it ''is'' becoming more popular - just as it is used today principally in academic journals. As for your counter arguments, they were not needed, for just as one can cite a few examples of the old usage, so too can one cite many other examples where the trend is to write CE / BCE. Your comparison of this issue with pagan week-days has nothing to do with this, since in English there is hardly any other alternative. If given an alternative that was acceptable, it too would become common-use in academic journals. [[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 21:29, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
::::There are alternatives, but none in popular usage. If they enjoyed a widespread usage, they would likely be accepted as an equally-viable option on Wikipedia just like CE is for AD on Wikipedia currently—but not ''more'' viable. Just because a term removes religious references doesn't make it more "neutral" here, true neutrality as far as Wikipedia is concerned is to employ that which is in common usage. After all, many English-language terms in common usage have etymologies tied to western religions, and using the Gregorian calendar as the standard above all other cultural calendars in itself would be considered religiously-biased to some, regardless of CE vs. AD. Academia and the general public use both CE and AD, just as they use both "centre" and "center", which we have a similar policy for  at [[WP:ENGVAR]]. — '''[[User talk:Crumpled Fire|<span style="font-family:Lucida Fax;"><span style="color:#2695A9;">Crumpled Fire</span></span>]]'''<small> • ''[[Special:Contributions/Crumpled Fire|contribs]]'' •</small> 02:44, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
:::::Thanks. In this we both agree.[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 05:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

== Agrippa I and Agrippa II ==

Since there is some confusion about the reigns of [[Herod the Great]]'s grandson and great grandson, and whether or not Agrippa II (the great grandson) was actually a king in Judea, I wish herein to allay all doubts, based on the following historical records. In [[Josephus]]' ''[[Antiquities of the Jews|Book of Antiquities]]'' (book 19, chapter 8, verse 2) we learn about the first Agrippa, [[Agrippa I]] (who is also called in Hebrew ''Agrippas''), who was the son of [[Aristobulus IV]], the son of Herod the Great, where he writes: "Now, when Agrippa had reigned three years over all '''Judea''', he came to the city [[Caesarea Maritima|Cesarea]], which was formerly called Strato's Tower; and there he exhibited shows in honor of Caesar." In the next chapter (ibid., chapter 9, vs. 1), we learn of Agrippa I's death: "And thus did king Agrippa depart this life. But he left behind him a son, Agrippa by name (i.e. [[Agrippa II]]), a youth in his seventeenth year of his age, and three daughters, one of whom, Bernice, was married to Herod, his father's brother, and was sixteen years old; the other two, Mariamme and Drusilla, were still virgins." Since [[Josephus]] informs us that Agrippa I only reigned 7 years, of which the first four years were entirely under [[Gaius Caesar|Caius Caesar]], it is evident that he died in the 3rd year of [[Claudius Caesar]] (see: ''Antiquities'' 19.8.2 [end]), or what was then roughly the year 40 CE. In verse 2 of the same chapter, we learn that Claudius Caesar was reluctant at first to confer upon a youth (merely aged 17) such a large kingdom, and so postponed the appointment, sending to Judea Cuspius Fadus to be procurator. In Josephus' ''Antiquities'' (book 20, chapter 7, verse 1) we read that in Claudius Caesar's twelfth year of reign, when Agrippa II finally became of an age suitable to rule over his father's kingdom, he bestowed upon Agrippa II "as a gift" the tetrarchy of Philip, and [[Batanea]], and added thereto [[Trachonitis|Trachonites]] with [[Abila (Decapolis)|Abila]]. It wasn't necessary to say "Judea" because this place was already his dominion, but had mentioned these other places as being added to Agrippa's dominion since they had earlier been divided among King Herod the Great's four sons after his death and they became merely minor kingdoms ([[tetrarchies]]). By the time that [[Nero]] succeeded Claudius Caesar, in the first year of his reign, he augmented Agrippa II's power by bestowing upon him a certain part of Galilee, [[Tiberias]], Taricheæ (believed to be [[Magdalla]]) and [[Julias]] (a city of [[Perea]]), just as we read in Josephus' ''Antiquities'' (book 20, chapter 8, verse 4). Meanwhile, Agrippa II continued to exercise the duty of king over Judea, as we read in Josephus (''Antiquities'' 20.8.8) where it says: "About this time king Agrippa gave the high priesthood to Ismael, who was the son of Fabi." And later on (ibid., verse 11): "King Agrippa built himself a very large dining-room in the royal palace at Jerusalem." While the king may have been a "puppet king," he was still nonetheless the legitimate king of Judea. The same king Agrippa II later removed Ismael as the Jewish high priest and appointed Jesus the son of Damneus to succeed him (''Antiquities'' 20.9.1), who too was supplanted by Jesus the son of Gamliel, by order of Kink Agrippa II (ibid. vs. 4). Although a vassal king, King Agrippa II had the care of the Temple committed to him as early as Claudius Caeasar's reign, just as we learn in ''Antiquities'' 20. 9. 7. But for those who assay to think that he was not the legitimate king of Judea, consider that in Josephus' book, ''[[The Jewish War]]'' (book 2, chapter 14, verse 4) it says: "At this time it happened that the Grecians at [[Caesarea Maritima|Caesarea]] had been too hard for the Jews, and had obtained of Nero the government of the city[...] in the twelfth year of the reign of Nero, '''and the seventeenth of the reign of Agrippa'''." By saying that Agrippa II began to reign ''five'' years before Nero's reign, here, no doubt, he is referring to the 9th year of Claudius Caesar's rein (who ruled for a total of 13 years, 7 months and 28 days, according to [[Epiphanius of Salamis|Epiphanius]]' chronology of the Caesars and their reigns in his "''Treatise on Weights and Measures''"), when Agrippa II (the youth) was then made the acting king of Judea, roughly in the year 46 CE, at the age of about 23 (some 6 years after his father had died) - since, as yet, there was no other kingdom committed unto his trust! And by the time when the war with the Romans had begun in earnest, and Agrippa was returning from a short visit to Alexandria in Egypt, it was this same king Agrippa II who tried to dissuade the people from fighting against Rome, as we read in ''Wars of the Jews'' (book 2, chapter 16, vss. 2-4), and where it says explicitly about him: "The high priests and men of power among the Jews, as well as the Sanhedrin, came to congratulate '''the king''' [upon his safe return]" (''Wars'' 20.16.2). Josephus would have been a contemporary with King Agrippa II. In fact, Josephus says of this king and his father (''Wars'' 5.4.2): "...the father of '''the present king''', and of the same name with him, '''Agrippa''', began that wall we spoke of; but he left off building it when he had only laid the foundation, out of the fear he was in of Claudius Caesar." It is, therefore, conclusive that Agrippa II was, indeed, a king over Judea, and this fact ought to be mentioned in this article. There is no reason to expunge this fact. By the way, the word "ethnarch" (a title borne by [[Herod Archelaus]] who reigned before Agrippa I) is used to define a king who rules over one-half of the territorial dominion of the previous king (see: ''[[Antiquities of the Jews|Antiquities]]'' 17.11.4).[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 21:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

== Herod Agrippa II, the son of Herod Agrippa I ==

It is plain from [[Josephus]] that, while Herod Agrippa II was still a "puppet king" of Rome, he did indeed begin to exercise regal power over his kingdom in Judea about six years after his father's death, which was then the 9th year of the reign of Claudius Caesar. This is evident by Josephus' words in ''[[The Jewish War]]'' (book 2, chapter 14, verse 4), that "the twelfth year of the reign of Nero" was actually "the '''seventeenth year of the reign of Agrippa''' II." Taking the regnal years of the Caesars into account, this takes us back to the 9th year of Claudius Caesar's reign when he reinstated Herod Agrippa II as the king of Judea. It was only 5 or 6 years later, however, during the first year of Nero's reign (after Claudius Caesar had already died) that Herod Agrippa II was also given kingship over "a certain part of Galilee, [[Tiberias]], Taricheæ (believed to be [[Magdalla]]) and [[Julias]] (a city of [[Perea]])," just as we read in Josephus' ''Antiquities'' (book 20, chapter 8, verse 4). This makes Agrippa II the legitimate king over Judea, Galilee and Perea. The king before Herod Agrippa II, his father by the same name (Herod Agrippa I) and the potentate who ruled before him ([[Herod Archelaus]]), were all the legitimate kings of Judea - with different levels of power; Herod Archelaus ruling only over one-half of his father's kingdom (called "ethnarch"), just as we read in ''Antiquities'' 17.11.4, and Herod Agrippa I ruling over 1/4 of his grandfather's kingdom (''tetrach''), but holding on to Judea. The titles "ethnarch" and "tetrach" do not diminish from the fact that these are still kings, albeit kings over territories divided among other kings. A ''tetrach'' is defined as the governor of one of four divisions of a country or province. For your information: Agrippa is called in our Jewish historical records as '''"the king"''' (Heb. '''אגריפס המלך'''), just as we find in the [[Mishnah]] (''Sotah'' 7:6) and in the [[Midrash Rabba]] (''Leviticus Rabba'' 3:5). Josephus, likewise, mentions this Herod Agrippa II as being the king during his own time, as we learn in the ''[[Wars of the Jews]]'' (book 5, chapter 4, verse 2): "...the father of '''the present king''', and of the same name with him, '''Agrippa''', began that wall we spoke of [in Jerusalem]; but he left off building it when he had only laid the foundation, out of the fear he was in of Claudius Caesar." Herod Agrippa II, in all this time, continued to exercise the duty of king over Judea, as we read in Josephus (''Antiquities'' 20.8.8) where it says: "About this time king Agrippa gave the high priesthood to Ismael, who was the son of Fabi." And later on (''ibid''., verse 11): "King Agrippa built himself a very large dining-room in the royal palace at Jerusalem." The same king Herod Agrippa II later removed Ismael as the Jewish high priest and appointed Jesus the son of Damneus to succeed him (''Antiquities'' 20.9.1), who too was supplanted by Jesus the son of Gamliel, by order of King Herod Agrippa II (''ibid''. vs. 4). It is, therefore, conclusive from these historical records that Herod Agrippa II was the last legitimate king of Judea, albeit a "vassal king," like the kings before him.[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 17:10, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

== Map Colour ==

While it's lovely to have a map, the colours are absolutely awful. Blue is for water and red is rarely used on maps. Please change to normal map colours. ''-- 12:13, 23 July 2021 45.74.110.183''
{{Talk:Herod Agrippa/GA1}}