View source for Template:Did you know nominations/Dracula

<includeonly>{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Talk|</includeonly>{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Template|[[Category:Passed DYK nominations&nbsp;from July 2021]]|}}<div style="background-color: #F3F9FF; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify this page.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as [[{{TALKPAGENAME}}|this nomination's talk page]], [[Talk:{{SUBPAGENAME}}|the article's talk page]] or [[Wikipedia talk:Did you know]]), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. '''No further edits should be made to this page'''.''

The result was: '''promoted''' by [[User:Desertarun|Desertarun]] ([[User talk:Desertarun|talk]])&nbsp;07:25, 1 August 2021 (UTC)<br />
{{DYK conditions}}
{{DYK header|Dracula}}
{{DYK nompage links|nompage=Dracula|Dracula}}
{{main page image/DYK|image=Vlad Tepes 002.jpg|caption=Vlad III, more commonly known as Vlad the Impaler}}
* ... that although [[Vlad the Impaler]] and [[Elizabeth Báthory]] are popularly believed to have inspired '''''[[Dracula]]''''', [[Bram Stoker]]'s notes mention neither figure? <s><small>Source: See [[Dracula#Influences]]; information is spread over two paragraphs.</small></s><small>Source:<ref>Miller, Elizabeth (1999). "Back to the Basics: Re-Examining Stoker's Sources for "Dracula"". ''Journal of the Fantastic in the Arts''. 10 (2 (38)): pp. 187–196.</ref><ref>McNally, Raymond T.; Florescu, Radu (1973). ''Dracula: A Biography of Vlad the Impaler''. pp. 360.</ref></small>
** <s>'''ALT1''':... that [[Bram Stoker]] picked the name '''''[[Dracula]]''''' because he thought it meant ''devil''{{-?}}</s> <small>Source: See [[Dracula#Textual history]]. From Stoker's notes: "Dracula in Wallachian language means devil" (Elizabeth Miller & Robert Eighteen-Bisang).</small>
:*
:* ''Comment'': This is my third DYK nomination. The article in question has just been promoted to GA following an extensive rewrite. 
<small>Created by [[User:ImaginesTigers|ImaginesTigers]] ([[User talk:ImaginesTigers|talk]]). Self-nominated at 16:13, 14 July 2021 (UTC).</small>
{{DYK checklist
|newness      = y
|length       = y
|eligibilityother = 
|sourced      = y
|neutral      = y
|plagiarismfree = y
|policyother  = 
|hookcited    = AGF
|hookinterest = y
|hookother    = 
|picfree      = y
|picused      = y
|picclear     = y
|qpq          = y
|status       = y
|comments     = The article was recently promoted to GA, checks out for copyvio and neutrality. Earwig only picked up direct quotes. The photo is public domain, looks good and is in the article. Now that '''ALT1''' has been edited, it is more accurate. The fact that Stoker was wrong does not mean about the word's meaning that it wasn't his inspiration, just that we should not make it appear like he was correct. However, I am approving '''ALT0''' per the nominator's request, and because it has fewer points of contention. I added sources from the article since they should be included in the hook as well. QPQ is not needed since this is only the nominator's third nomination.
|sign         = [[User:BuySomeApples|BuySomeApples]] ([[User talk:BuySomeApples|talk]]) 22:41, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
}}
:*'''Comment''' The Wallachian dialect of Romanian doesn't really exist, Romanian is divided into two main groups, the northern variant (Moldavia, most of Transylvania and the northermost parts of Dobruja) and the southern variant (Wallachia, most of Dobruja and southeastern Transylvania). This southern variant is divided into more subvariants such as Muntenian and Oltenian, probably the one in southeastern Transylvania is also considered its own but I am not sure about that, but the reality is that it isn't like Oltenian and Muntenian are considerably more similar to each other than with the southeastern Transylvanian variant as to form their own group within the southern variant of Romania, so a Wallachian dialect doesn't really exist. Here are some maps to understand it better [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GraiuriDaco-Rom%C3%A2ne.jpg] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Romania.svg]. I'll move the page and do the necessary fixes some day. Sorry for so much text about unrelated stuff, but I'd just put "in old Romanian" or "in Romanian" instead of "in the Wallachian dialect". [[User:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#0099FF;">Super</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#800080;">Ψ</span>]] [[User talk:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#E60026;">Dro</span>]] 21:52, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
::: {{replyto|Super Dromaeosaurus}} The main problem is that I can't substantiate that. Do you have any sourcing to that effect? All of the sourcing that I have reiterate what Stoker said, or simply reproduce it without comment. Don't get me wrong—I believe you! I just can't make it reflect what is accurate because that's not what the (relevant) sources say, so your help would be really appreciated! — '''''[[User:ImaginesTigers|ImaginesTigers]]''''' ([[User talk:ImaginesTigers|talk]]∙[[Special:Contributions/ImaginesTigers|contribs]]) 00:04, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
::::Sorry, I got it wrong. In old Romanian, Dracul meant "dragon", "devil" is the modern meaning (see [[Vlad the Impaler#Name]]), so there's no need to put "in ''old'' Romanian", which probably makes the sourcing issue easier. By the way, which source would you need? One saying the Wallachian language he was talking about is Romanian? [[User:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#0099FF;">Super</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#800080;">Ψ</span>]] [[User talk:Super Dromaeosaurus|<span style="color:#E60026;">Dro</span>]] 07:35, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
::::*Guys: [[Vlad the Impaler#Name]] has a rather finely sourced explanation of the name, which Vlad himself used in his signature -- in short, if probably refers to the [[Order of the Dragon]] and to his father, [[Vlad II Dracul]], wearing it. At no point did ''Dracul(e)a'' mean "devil" in Romanian, old or new, Wallachian or whatever -- even if we were to assume that ''dracul'' was the "devil" and not "serpent" in the language of the time, which is patently ''not'' the case, ''draculea'' is a derivative suggesting possession or kinship by/with ''dracul'' (it has no real meaning in modern Romanian). This means that the hook, whatever it is based on, is lazy and inaccurate; so is whatever part of the article it is based on.
:::::(As a side note: it is completely immaterial to the subject, as all primary sources, including Vlad's signatures, are in '''Slavonic''', not Romanian: but there is such a thing as a [[Wallachian dialect]], and info I sourced the article on [[Alecu Beldiman]] suggests that, while fully intelligible to other speakers of Romanian, it had its peculiarities, as in voicing ''z'' as a ''dz'', therefore [[d̦]], and ''j'' as ''dj''.) [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] ([[User talk:Dahn|talk]]) 07:23, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::Ah yes, I now note it is based on Stoker's own quote: "Dracula means means devil." Guys, this is precisely why you should differentiate between a fact and a report of a fact -- it is easily disputable that ''Draculea'' ever meant "Devil", and in any case ''Dracula'' in that form doesn't even exist in Romanian (well, it does ''now'': it ''only'' refers to Stoker's novel). Stoker was not an authority on Romanian, and he couldn't even speak it; he was probably just parsing the few words he could discern and spelling them the way he heard them. So the "fact" is not that ''Dracula'' means "devil" in Romanian, it is that Stoker thought it did. Make what you will of this. [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] ([[User talk:Dahn|talk]]) 07:28, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
:::::: Revisied the alt, but I'll say that my preference is still for the primary hook, not the alternate which I'm aware has issues. What "dracula" actually meant is irrelevant to the reason Stoker picked it. He didn't pick it because of Vlad the Impaler; he liked the meaning given in whatever book he saw it in. — '''''[[User:ImaginesTigers|ImaginesTigers]]''''' ([[User talk:ImaginesTigers|talk]]∙[[Special:Contributions/ImaginesTigers|contribs]]) 12:14, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
::Uh, the ALT hook now says "because he ''thought'' it meant devil", which seems fine to me. I also prefer the first hook. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 19:16, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
* '<s>''Withdrawing'''</s> this nomination. I'm not familiar with the DYK withdrawal procedure, so I've tagged the template for deletion. If that's improper, please let me know! — '''''[[User:ImaginesTigers|ImaginesTigers]]''''' ([[User talk:ImaginesTigers|talk]]∙[[Special:Contributions/ImaginesTigers|contribs]]) 21:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
*:Are you sure {{ping|ImaginesTigers}}? I can close this nomination if you want, but a Dracula hook would look great on the front page. [[User:BuySomeApples|BuySomeApples]] ([[User talk:BuySomeApples|talk]]) 20:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
*::Agree with BuySomeApples; would be great to get it to main page. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 19:16, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
*::: {{user|BuySomeApples}} and {{user|Ceoil}}: We'll just keep it going. — '''''[[User:ImaginesTigers|ImaginesTigers]]''''' ([[User talk:ImaginesTigers|talk]]∙[[Special:Contributions/ImaginesTigers|contribs]]) 08:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
*:::: Thank you {{ping|ImaginesTigers}} and {{ping|Ceoil}}! I have done a full review of the nomination (everything checks out) and approved '''ALT0'''. Can't wait to see this on the front page. [[User:BuySomeApples|BuySomeApples]] ([[User talk:BuySomeApples|talk]]) 22:41, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
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