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== Arbitration Committee Coordinator announcement ==

<small> Note: Cross-posted from [[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee]].</small>

As part of a comprehensive updating of its systems and processes, the Arbitration Committee has decided to appoint one of its sitting
arbitrators to act as coordinator.  This role is to carry no additional substantive authority but will primarily involve scheduling work flow and setting target dates for completion of tasks.

Arbitrator {{User|Kirill Lokshin}} has been offered and has accepted this assignment, effective immediately, with the title of Coordinating Arbitrator. Arbitrator {{User|Roger Davies}} will serve as his Deputy.

Additionally, as previously announced, former arbitrator {{User|Deskana}} will continue to coordinate the ArbCom mailing list.

For the Arbitration Committee, [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 18:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

*That's good news: if anyone can organise and coordinate, it's Kirill. This is good news for all of us. ➨ <font color="red">❝'''[[User talk:Redvers|ЯEDVERS]]'''❞</font> [[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|a reasonably good buy]] 18:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
**Yep. ;-) He is already off to a great start by setting up an agenda for our discussions. [[User:FloNight|FloNight]][[User talk:FloNight|&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;]] 19:09, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
*Perhaps this section title should have been "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy" --[[User:Hammersoft|Hammersoft]] ([[User talk:Hammersoft|talk]]) 19:21, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
**[[Pimp My Ride|Yo dawg!]] I heard u like arbitrating so we put a bureaucracy in your bureaucracy so you can arbitrate while you arbitrate. — [[User:Hex|<span style="color:#000">Hex</span>]] [[User_talk:Hex|<span title="Hex's talk page"><span style="color:#000">(❝</span>'''<span style="color:#900">?!</span>'''<span style="color:#000">❞)</span></span>]] 21:11, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
***I'm in ur bureaucracy, updatin' ur arbitrators... [[User:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Glass</span>]]'''[[User talk:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Cobra</span>]]''' 22:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
:Hate to see two of our msot active [[WP:MILHIST]] coordinators taking responsibilities that require so much time.--[[User:Patton123|<font face="verdana"; font size="2"; font color="green">Patton</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Patton123|<font face="verdana"; font size="2"; font color="green">t</font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Patton123|<font face="verdana"; font size="2"; font color="green">c</font>]]</sup> 22:26, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
::Don't worry too much. Kirill has already been the most active arbitrator for almost two years and it hasn't seemed to stop him from doing anything else he's wanted to. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 22:30, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

== Request for review and unblock of [[User:67.159.50.130]] ==

{{resolved}}
The IP [[User:67.159.50.130]] has been blocked for 5 years as an open proxy.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3A67.159.50.130]  It was used only once in April of last year.  I have email permission from [[User:Tomascastelazo|Tomascastelazo]], a talented Wikimedia Commons photographer, to disclose that it is his underlying IP address.  He already has one FP on this site and several on the sister site, and I have been trying to set up a featured picture nomination here for him (English is not his native language).  IPs can change and we rarely block any for such a long time.  Please review. [[User:Durova|<span style="color:#000099; font-family:Verdana;">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 07:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
:I suppose we can change the settings to a softblock. <span style="background:white;color:#007FFF;font-family:Georgia;">[[User:Nishkid64|Nishkid64]] </span><sub>([[User talk:Nishkid64|Make articles, not wikidrama]])</sub> 07:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
:: I told [[User:Spellcast]] since it was his block so he can review.  If something has changed, he would know if others may be blocked for similar reasons. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 07:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Thanks very much. :) [[User:Durova|<span style="color:#000099; font-family:Verdana;">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 08:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
:If the IP is no longer an open proxy, there's no need to keep it blocked at all :) (I can't nmap from here) -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#BB0066;">talk</span>]]</sup> 13:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
::It looks like it's still open, but I'm no expert with nmap, so I'll leave that decision to someone else. <span style="background:white;color:#007FFF;font-family:Georgia;">[[User:Nishkid64|Nishkid64]] </span><sub>([[User talk:Nishkid64|Make articles, not wikidrama]])</sub> 16:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
:::The above IP is within this range: 67.159.0.0/18 owned by FDCservers. Currently the range is blocked by {{Admin|Ryulong}}. --[[User:Kanonkas|Kanonkas]] ([[User talk:Kanonkas|talk]]) 13:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::It doesn't really matter if that IP is still an open proxy because even if it was unblocked, that rangeblock would still be in effect. So, I've given Tomascastelazo [[WP:IPBE]]. [[User:Spellcast|Spellcast]] ([[User talk:Spellcast|talk]]) 03:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
== C:CSD ==

There is a backlog at [[C:CSD]] currently. If there are any free administrators available, assistance would be nice :) Please remove this message when C:CSD has been pared down. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 04:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

:Any thoughts on why [[:File:BSicon ÜWo+r.svg]] is appearing there? I don't think I'm missing the obvious (I hope), but I can't figure it out. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 05:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

::We're also building up a backlog in the [[:Category:Disputed non-free images]] area. [[User:JPG-GR|JPG-GR]] ([[User talk:JPG-GR|talk]]) 07:08, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
== Flags ==

{{resolved}}
Someone can replace [[:Image:Bandera de España(1701-1748).gif]] with [[:Image:Bandera de España 1701-1748.svg]] in [[Template:Country data Spain]]? Thanks. --[[User:Durero|Durero]] ([[User talk:Durero|talk]]) 12:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:{{done}} '''[[User:Horologium|<span style="color:DarkSlateGray;">Horologium</span>]]''' <small>[[User talk:Horologium|(talk)]]</small> 12:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
== Please indefinitely block user 'Terry Hatchett16' ==

Hi,

Please could you indefinitely block user 'Terry Hatchett16'? The account is erroneous.

With kind regards,

[[User:Terry Hatchett16|Terry Hatchett16]] ([[User talk:Terry Hatchett16|talk]]) 16:47, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:Is there a spelling difference I'm not seeing, or is the user wanting us to block his/her own account? [[User:Tanthalas39|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">'''Tan'''</font>]]  &#124;  [[User talk:Tanthalas39|<font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39</font>]] 16:52, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
::Yes please, I created this account thinking my original had been deleted but it was my silly mistake! rather than having two similar accounts floating around Wiki I would like this one to be blocked to make it clear I am not [[sockpuppet]]ting. --[[User:Terry Hatchett16|Terry Hatchett16]] ([[User talk:Terry Hatchett16|talk]]) 16:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:{{done}} [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] ([[User talk:Kingturtle|talk]]) 16:57, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
== DYK Image Probelms (Urgent!) ==

{{resolved}}-<small>Fixed what seems like the eighth image today, but it should be now [[User:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:navy;">NuclearWarfare</span>]]''''' <sub>([[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]])</sub>''''' 04:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)</small>
*[[:File:Rhododendron-by-eiffel-public-domain-20040617.jpg]] must be '''protected at commons''' or, alternatively, uploaded and protected here.
*[[:File:Pink ribbon.svg]] must be '''protected at commons''' or, alternatively, uploaded and protected here.
*[[:File:Woodesrogers.jpg]] must be '''protected at commons''' or, alternatively, uploaded and protected here. Also, important source code must be given, as this is currently a copyright violation and should '''not''' go on the Main Page.

I've found three problems today, which is up from my usual rate of two per day. So far, I've been forced to go to the commons IRC channel and ping an administrator there. We need a better permanent solution; is a new Main Page Upload Protection bot in the works? [[User:NW's Public Sock|<span style="color:navy;">NuclearWarfare</span>]]''''' [[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<sup style="color:green;">contact me</sup>]]'''''[[Special:Contributions/NuclearWarfare|<sub style="color:purple;">My work</sub>]] 18:59, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:Hello, 
:Please tell me when and how long the will stay on your main page. With that information I can protect them for you :) [[User:Abigor|Abigor]] ([[User talk:Abigor|talk]]) 19:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
::I'm not actually sure; DYK operates on a timer that I am unsure of. The best option would be to protect them all for 30 hours or so. Thanks for responding so quickly :) [[User:NW's Public Sock|<span style="color:navy;">NuclearWarfare</span>]]''''' [[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<sup style="color:green;">contact me</sup>]]'''''[[Special:Contributions/NuclearWarfare|<sub style="color:purple;">My work</sub>]] 19:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I will protect them all for 2 days. Thanks for notifying me. [[User:Abigor|Abigor]] ([[User talk:Abigor|talk]]) 19:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The images are all protected at Commons, but [[:File:Woodesrogers.jpg]] is still a copyright violation as pictured now. [[User:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:navy;">NuclearWarfare</span>]]''''' <sub>([[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]])</sub>''''' 20:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
*There is no source info for it, but assuming a reasonable timeline for its creation after [[Woodes Rogers]]'s death, I could be convinced that it meets common's PD requirements. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 20:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
**Well, as it has been nuked off of Commons, I had to improvise. I asked [[User:Zscout370]] to use the only available free use image [[:File:PaschalEze10plus.jpg]] (which looks really awful) and replace it on [[Template:Did you know/Queue/5]]. If any DYK regular could fix that, it would be much appreciated. [[User:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:navy;">NuclearWarfare</span>]]''''' <sub>([[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]])</sub>''''' 20:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
***[[User:RMHED]] found another picture, which is going up on the Main Page. All is resolved. [[User:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:navy;">NuclearWarfare</span>]]''''' <sub>([[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]])</sub>''''' 04:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
== GoRight community ban ==

:{{user5|GoRight}}
[[user:GoRight|GoRight]], is a single-purpose account who last August was the subject of [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/GoRight|an RFC]], which led to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive466#Continued_baiting_and_harassment_by_User:GoRight community sanction here on AN]. Since that time, he has [[User:Raul654/GoRight|persisted in disrupting Wikipedia]] - revert warring, making false/inflammatory edits that are likely to cause edit wars, making personal attacks, using talk pages as soap boxes, making false claims about policy says and then using those false claims for wikilawyering, etc.

He recently returned from several weeks on hiatus and resumed his disruptive ways, leading me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AGoRight&diff=263027577&oldid=261523316 to warn him] that any further disruption would not be tolerated. He continued revert warring (in violation of the 1rr he promised to adhere to the last time his behavior was discussed on AN), so I blocked him. GoRight posted an unblock request template on his talk page, and unfortunately he found an admin who fell for the trick. Aitias unblocked him, claiming falsely that I was involved in the matter (I was not; I issued my warning to GoRight before ever reverting him) and that no valid reasons for the block had been provided (when in fact they had been provided in abundance. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARaul654&diff=263070662&oldid=263067982] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARaul654&diff=263074757&oldid=263072810]). To wit, since his return, GoRight has - literally - not made one single productive edit. Instead, he has been using talk pages as soap boxes for personal attacks, revert warring, removing relevant sourced information from articles - all in all, disruptive editing.

I think it's time to re-consider the GoRight community ban. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 03:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:I don't see anything in his January contributions to justify a community ban, but don't really care enough to have a strong opinion either way.  The one thing I do care about and think is important to say here is that Aitias acted correctly in unblocking this user.  You were obviously a heavily involved admin.  In addition to your reverting with him in that article, you were in a discussion with him on [[Talk:Global warming]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Global_warming&diff=261543995&oldid=261519477] and were obviously involved in August.  Aitias acted correctly - if you want to propose a community ban, fine, but you don't have to do it by criticizing the actions of an admin who was pretty unquestionably in the right. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 03:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

:It's interesting that you bring up no particular edits here. You say that ''all of them'' are terrible, but I'm not seeing it. 
:* One of his edits (edit-warring) was on adding a closing statement to a RfC on his behavior. Perhaps technically not permissible, but certainly not a terrible banworthy action. One can understand why he would want to clarify something in that sort of page.
:* In another case he wanted to trim a long quote to the basic gist: the guy said he was not a global warming denier. This is perfectly reasonable given summary style. 
:* Edits like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=261489515 this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=261489864 this] are more troubling. It's disruptive to make inflammatory, unsourced statements on the talk page. And he apparently did edit-war to keep it in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=261502856].
:I'm not ready to say he should be banned, but if he keeps up with those kinds of comments, I could see a ban in his future. [[User:ImperfectlyInformed|<span style="font-family: Times">II</span>]] | ([[User_talk:ImperfectlyInformed|t]] - [[Special:Contributions/ImperfectlyInformed|c]]) 04:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

::On the contrary, in my above summary, I certainly discussed individual edits. Specifically, I linked to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARaul654&diff=263074757&oldid=263072810 this] edit of mine, where I broke down ''all'' of GoRight's edits for the last week into three categories - the inflammatory edits to [[talk:global warming]] you mentioned (and subsequent revert warring and wikilawyering on his talk page about it), the attempts to rewrite his history on the RFC, and the disruptive editing on [[The Deniers]].  
::GoRight's edits to The Deniers were certainly disruptive. The quote in question was not overly long, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263032045&oldid=263024746 GoRight's edit] substantially whitewashed meaning of the cited sentence (GoRight's "I am not a denier" version is substantially weaker than the previous version, which, to paraphrase, said "Solomon's newspaper columns were misleading. I am not a denier. There is overwhelming evidence for global warming. Solomon misquoted other people too") The latter is an accurate representation of what was said; the former is a watered down and less informative, which was GoRight's goal from the beginning. GoRight's other edit there, was to insert original researchy commentary from Solomon, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Deniers&diff=263044562&oldid=263020617 as WMC explained on the talk page]. In short - GoRight's edits to the article made it worse, and predictably, caused an edit war.
::As to the third set of edits - the soapboxy personal attacks on the talk page, I'm glad you agree that are "troubling". But what do you mean, "if he keeps up with these"? He has a 2 year history of disruption here, including a prior block for personal attacks last summer. Even prior to the last August's RFC and community sanction, he had already been sanctioned for violating BLP with regard to William M. Connelly's biography, and making personal attack against WMC. It's not as if these behaviors are new or unexpected - they are par for the course with him. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 05:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::My apologies about missing your diffs, but you could telegraph them better. After looking around a bit again, I'd probably agree to his banning if I had to make a decision. But the process for banning long-term editors on Wikipedia is flawed. It would be best if we could do a query of the database of users for 15 or so with >500 articlespace edits who have edited within a week. Then trim out involved users (and those who don't want to comment) from that list and ask them to look at the evidence and vote. That would be the best. Here, the most likely people to weigh in are those with some sort of agenda for/against GoRight. But I think a topic-ban from global warming articles is fair - the fact that his response below doesn't even apologize for his talkpage comments is telling. [[User:ImperfectlyInformed|<span style="font-family: Times">II</span>]] | ([[User_talk:ImperfectlyInformed|t]] - [[Special:Contributions/ImperfectlyInformed|c]]) 09:03, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:::OK, I'm seeing evidence of disruptive bahaviour, has anyone any diffs of positive contributions since GoRight's return, or indeed at any time? . . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 14:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I asked that question on my talk page, and the answer I got was a resounding silence. I think we can safely say the answer is "No" - by any reasonable standard, he has not made a single positive contribution since his return. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 17:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Well, he has at ''least'' one, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=State_of_Fear&diff=prev&oldid=249133328 here]. Has there an RFC on this user? [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 17:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Actually, that was revered by consensus it appears, so it probably wasn't that good, and the general language is good enough probably for NPOV. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 17:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::There is a substantial difference between "criticism from climate scientists" and "criticism from some climate scientists". The latter leads one of think that the criticism comes from a relatively small number of scientists, or that there is dissent, when in fact none exists. GoRight's edit distorts the reality of the situation, which is something common to much of his article editing. And, as you said, it was reverted. So that's still 0 good edits from GoRight. 
::::::For your other question, here's a short history of GoRight: GoRight caused much disruption in 2007, then left for several months, returning in mid-2008 and picking up where he left off - he started '''9''' simultaneous edit wars. He was [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive438#Disruption_by_GoRight|brought to AN ]] last June for BLP violations and making personal attacks. Then in July there [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/GoRight|was an RFC]] where a plurality of folks endorsed the idea that he contributes nothing to the encyclopedia, followed by an [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive466#Continued_baiting_and_harassment_by_User:GoRight|ANI discussion]] in August which resulted in community sanctions. During that ANI discussion, GoRight promised to turn over a new leaf - to be less disruptive, adhere to BLP, adhere to 1rr. I knew this was a lie (As R. Baley said, "GoRight can be exceptionally polite when at a noticeboard"), so I began keeping track of his edits [[User:Raul654/GoRight|here]]. GoRight caused more disruption from September-November, then left for two months. He returned last week, and again resumed his disruption. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 17:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Based on all this he falls into that cheeful polite POV pusher side of things. Or mostly polite. Either way, he's playing games with the articles and we can do without him, I agree on that. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 18:17, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I also support a community ban on GoRight. After reviewing the evidence, that is the only option left for dealing with this editor.--[[User:SouthernNights|SouthernNights]] ([[User talk:SouthernNights|talk]]) 20:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

===Comment from GoRight===
Sigh.  I was hoping to stay out of this discussion so that others could decide for themselves the truth of the situation, but Raul's ongoing litany of lies and distortions demands some sort of response.

This [[WP:HARASS]]ment by [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] is beginning to get old.  The simple fact of the matter is that he disagrees with my POV on AGW and things have escalated to the point where he is now using his administrative privileges to attempt to institute his own personal community ban against me.  The [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&oldid=263032045 edit he blocked me for] speaks for itself on this point.  Read it for yourself.  There is nothing overtly disruptive about it.  Check the edit summaries and commentary on the talk page as well and decide for yourself.

Here are a few points to consider if you believe that I am simply being hyperbolic here:
# He began his campaign for a topic ban against me on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=221981372#Disruption_by_GoRight 24 June 2008].
# When this didn't yield the desired result, he decided to [[WP:FORUMSHOP]] by creating a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/GoRight User RFC against me].
# The RFC itself yielded no consensus for any action as evidenced by the fact that on 3 August 2008 one of the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/GoRight&diff=229660473&oldid=225084548 co-certifiers proposed closing it] since everything had pretty much already been said.  The only reason it remained open is that a few people wanted to make some final edits.
# On 7 August 2008 a [[WP:AN]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive466#Continued_baiting_and_harassment_by_User:GoRight thread was started] that was completely unrelated to the RFC was started, and while that thread ultimately resulted in a very narrow topic ban against me, the topic (pages related to William M. Connolley) was never even mentioned or discussed in the RFC.  In fact, when some of the participants in the RFC learned of the [[WP:AN]] thread after the fact they expressed dismay that they had not been informed nor had the matter been mentioned in the RFC (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/GoRight&diff=232433675&oldid=232429872 this], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/GoRight&diff=232563658&oldid=232507677 this], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/GoRight&diff=232756666&oldid=232744592 this]).
# Raul now wants you to believe that the sanction against me was a direct result of his RFC (e.g. "''[[user:GoRight|GoRight]], is a single-purpose account who last August was the subject of [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/GoRight|an RFC]], which led to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive466#Continued_baiting_and_harassment_by_User:GoRight community sanction here on AN].''") when it had absolutely nothing to do with the RFC.
# Apparently since the sanction was imposed, Raul has been [[WP:STALK]]ing me and maintaining a [[WP:Attack page]] against me [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Raul654/GoRight here].
# I guess he now wants to simply [[WP:FORUMSHOP]] the same topics again in the hopes of getting a different result.
# My edit history will show that I have respected the topic ban against me and there have been no additional incidents in that regard.  The topic ban specifically does NOT restrict me from continuing to edit global warming pages.
# I have never made any secret of the fact that I am a single issue editor (this does not disqualify me from participation on wikipedia) nor that I am a skeptic.  As I said in the previous [[WP:AN]] thread my purpose here is to combat the blatant AGW bias that is pervasive on these pages.  This too is completely within intent, purpose, and spirit of being inclusive in wikipedia and trying to represent all points of view.  Does that make me a POV pusher?  From Raul's perspective I have no doubt that it does which is why he wants me to simply go away, apparently by force, coercion, and subterfuge if necessary.  But from wikipedia's perspective?  I don't think so.
# This [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263015240&oldid=263012098 edit] which evoked this response and description: "''GoRight's edits to The Deniers were certainly disruptive. The quote in question was not overly long, and GoRight's edit substantially whitewashed meaning of the cited sentence (GoRight's "I am not a denier" version is substantially weaker than the previous version, which, to paraphrase, said "Solomon's newspaper columns were misleading. I am not a denier. There is overwhelming evidence for global warming. Solomon misquoted other people too") The latter is an accurate representation of what was said; the former is a watered down and less informative, which was GoRight's goal from the beginning.''" is a fine case in point.  It is completely illustrative of Raul's modus operandi here.  He is completely exaggerating and misrepresenting the truth of the situation in an attempt to bias you against me.  He does this when he says that my sanction was a result of the RFC when it was not.  He does this in the example above.  If you want more examples simply look at the descriptions he has in his [[WP:Attack page]] then follow the links and read the context.  In the overwhelming majority of cases there the outcome will be just like this example.
# Raul wants you to believe that this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263015240&oldid=263012098 edit] is inflammatory and POV pushing on my part.  But take note of the content that HE is arguing to keep in the article, not me.  Did I simply trash the entire comment?  No.  Did I leave the operative portion of the point being made?  Yes.  Did I improve the article by removing biased material that was being given [[WP:UNDUE]] weight given its context and location?  I claim yes.  He claims no.  But if you go read the section that comment is in you will find that the whole thing is highly summarized.  The entire series of articles has been collapsed into a single paragraph.  The original rebuttal paragraph was similar until this comment had been added.  This single comment almost doubles the size of that section on its own.  Is that, therefore, [[WP:UNDUE]]?  I say yes.  He says no.  This is a simple content dispute and nothing more.  So, who is POV pushing here and who is not?
# Raul claims that I don't follow wikipedia policies.  But [[WP:DISPUTE]] clearly states that disagreements should be taken to the talk page.  When KDP reverted my edits I did so.  Raul on the other hand simple committed 2 drive-by reverts without so much as an edit summary as to why.  This is a very common modus operandi of his as well and this is but one example.  So who's following policy and who is not?
# Raul claims that he was not in a content dispute with me prior to warning me and blocking me.  He then impugns the character of Aitias by calling him, in effect, a liar and saying that he falsely claims Raul was involved in the content dispute.  Check the timestamps [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263024746&oldid=263018198 here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GoRight&diff=263025854&oldid=261523316 here] to see if Raul is being truthful in his description of the chronology of the events.
# Given our past history together I think it is fair to say that Raul and I are perpetually in a content dispute regardless of this most recent edit he is objecting to.  He knows this well and he could have easily gotten an uninvolved administrator to make the block if it was justified.  He chose not to because he knew he wouldn't be able to find anyone who agreed.  That only left him to use his administrative privileges to try and silence me.  Apparently this is a recurring theme, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=221954011&oldid=221953263 here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=221773511&oldid=221772866 here] and even comments already expressed by others in this very [[WP:AN]] thread.  So, who is adhering to policy here and who is not?
# Raul also knows that maintaining [[WP:Attack page]]s over such a long time is considered unacceptable.  He himself has made that very argument in the past when it suited him.  Now he chooses to ignore that reality.  Note in his attack page that he claims I am maintaining hit lists.  Those pages contained evidence I was collecting as part of the [[WP:AN]] discussion.  Note also that those pages no longer exist and were deleted within days of the sanction being imposed against me.  Who is following policy here, and who is not?

I would very much appreciate some action be taken to prevent Raul from continuing to [[WP:STALK]] and [[WP:HARASS]] me (as evidenced by his [[WP:Attack page]] and his repeated and failed calls to ban me), and most especially to prevent him from continuing to abuse his administrative privileges as a means of silencing me in all manner of content disputes because he simply disagrees with my POV.  Since others have also commented that this is a recurring theme with him against other users on GW pages, perhaps a general ban on his using administrative privileges on GW pages would also be in order.  Either way something should be done to rein him in as this current incident illustrates.

The questions you have to ask yourself here are, does this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263032045&oldid=263024746 edit that he blocked me for] represent the devious and nefarious attempt on my part to destroy the whole of wikipedia that Raul would have you believe, or does it not?  Did he block me to prevent imminent damage to wikipedia or did he simply do it to punish me and teach me a lesson?  In other words, was he following proper wikipedia policy or was he not?

--[[User:GoRight|GoRight]] ([[User talk:GoRight|talk]]) 23:02, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

{{discussion top}}
::I'm putting these sections into an archive. Raul654 is not the pressing issue here, and this is unlikely to be helpful, per Thatcher. The immediate question is whether GoRight should be community banned. If another user's behavior is a concern, I suggest an RFC rather than diverting a timely community ban discussion. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 08:46, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

===Community review of [[User:Raul654]]'s block of [[User:GoRight]]===
As long as we're going to discuss GoRight here, I think the community should assess whether Raul's block of GoRight was appropriate given their history.  The two have an excessively nasty history to the point where Raul keeps a [[User:Raul654/GoRight|list]] of GoRight's so-called "disruption" and has attempted on multiple occasions to have GoRight community banned.  To me, it seems rather obvious that Raul should not personally exercise a block on GoRight (except in a clear-cut case of policy violation or a violation of his topic ban, neither of which seem to be the case here as two uninvolved admins disagreed with the block [[User_talk:Raul654#Unblock_request_of_GoRight|here]] and he was subsequently unblocked).  In my opinion, there is no way that Raul could have considered himself an uninvolved admin here and therefore he clearly should have asked someone else to perform the block or presented the behavior to the community.  I'm far from being an uninvolved party in this whole mess as well so I'd ask the community to review this block and decide whether it was appropriate. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 09:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:As an uninvolved user--and without any comment on the value of either GoRight or Raul's contributions--blocking a user you're in a nasty, long-term dispute with is blatantly '''not''' okay. It takes 10 seconds to find an uninvolved admin, and if the user warrants a block as much as you say they do, they get it. There is no ambiguity in the policy, and as a longtime admin Raul should know better. I suggest we review this further. <span style="font-family:impact, serif;background:black;color:red;border-style:single;letter-spacing:1px">Bullzeye</span><small><sup><i>[[User talk:Bullzeye|  (Ring for Service)]]</i></sup></small> 12:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::Could we use a little common sense here? There is a difference between "a nasty, long-term dispute" and "a nasty, long-term disruptive editor whom one admin has been trying to get to Straighten up and Fly right". Don't conflate ''I've blocked you, warned you, and tried to get you to follow policy'' with ''I'm involved''. This trend is not helping the encyclopedia. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 12:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I think maintaining a userspace list of perceived problems for many months (I have just sent it to MfD) does make an admin involved. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 12:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::To save others the trouble, the [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Raul654/GoRight|Mfd]] and the [[User:Raul654/GoRight|page]]. That is "involved" in watching a formerly banned user, yes? [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 13:12, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Adding: DuncanHill must not have read Raul's talk page, where immediately above the section for this Mfd, Raul states the page is in case GoRight goes to another Rfc or to Arbitration.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Raul654&diff=263151067&oldid=263149596] [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 13:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Indeed I had not seen that, but I must say coming up with a "it's just in case there is another case" justification ''5 months'' after starting such a page rings a little hollow to me. Other editors are not allowed to maintain such pages over such a long time "just in case", so I do not see why Raul should be. I assume he has access to a computer, so it should not be too hard for him to maintain such a list if he wishes off-wiki. If KC is going to copy his responses to the MfD here, so shall I.[[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 13:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::During the ANI discussion in August, I had no doubt in my mind whatsoever that GoRight was lying when he said he intended to improve his behavior, and that it would inevitably wind up back at ANI/RFC/Arbcom. I started that page so I would be prepared when it happened. (That's why "evidence" has been the first word on that page since day 1) [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 19:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

:KC, I realize you tend to support Raul almost universally, but the rule's real simple: don't block people you've had personal conflicts with. Get an uninvolved admin to do it. It's real, real, real simple, costs nothing, and eliminates drama. Wikilawyering about intent is not helping the encyclopedia, and I'm a little disappointed (but unsurprised) that you're unwilling to even admit that Raul MIGHT have done wrong here. <span style="font-family:impact, serif;background:black;color:red;border-style:single;letter-spacing:1px">Bullzeye</span><small><sup><i>[[User talk:Bullzeye|  (Ring for Service)]]</i></sup></small> 13:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::Who the hell are you? I don't support anyone universally. I support or disagree as my intelligence and conscience dictates. I suggest you back off, I am tired of slander and insult  this particular day, and you are the last straw. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 13:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Having looked into this a little, there's certainly been a resumption of disruptive editing by GoRight and in light of past disruption a block seems reasonable. Whether it will lead to an improvement in behaviour is something to watch. The suggestion that any admin with past experience of a disruptive editor should therefore leave them to continue disruption to "eliminate drama" is a recipe for more disruption, and probably more drama. Vague allegations and what appears to be a personal attack on KC's motivations are not the way to improve the encyclopedia. . . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 13:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::This is more than just "past experience".  If it's a topic area that you have strong opinions about, don't block a good faith user, particularly if you are actively arguing with them on a talk page.  [[WP:BLOCK#Disputes]] says, "''Administrators must not block users with whom they are engaged in a content dispute; instead, they should report the problem to other administrators. Administrators should also be aware of potential conflicts of interest involving pages or subject areas with which they are involved.''"   The proper course of action would be for Raul654 to recuse himself from blocking people for global warming-related issues except for obvious spam/vandalism and the like.  This isn't the first time there has been a concern here with Raul's use of the tools in global warming articles.  Usually criticism is just shouted down, and I'm not under any delusion that anything different will happen this time.   One of the biggest failings of Wikipedia is its inability to deal with abuse of the administrative tools. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 17:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::It is shouted down because there's nothing to it, just like this complaint here. You are saying, in essence, that only an admin who has never interacted with another user can block him, which is a recipe for problems if that user is disruptive in a non-obvious way. Hell, even the policy you cited doesn't support your interpretation (Policy says "Administrators must not block users with whom they are engaged in a content dispute"; you say "If it's a topic area that you have strong opinions about, don't block a good faith user". These are substantially different statements) [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 18:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::{{ec}} Indeed, I'm in perfect agreement with B on this issue. The block constituted a blatant conflict of interest. — <small><b><span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;">[[User:Aitias|<span style="color:#20406F;">Aitias</span>]]</span></b></small> <span style="color: #999;">//</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:Aitias|''discussion'']] 18:12, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::{{ec}} Raul654, you were involved in a ''particular'' (and ''current'') content dispute with this user and have not just “''interacted with''” them at a ''random'' point of time. — <small><b><span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;">[[User:Aitias|<span style="color:#20406F;">Aitias</span>]]</span></b></small> <span style="color: #999;">//</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:Aitias|''discussion'']] 18:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Absolutely agree with Aitias here.  To paint this as if you've just "interacted" with GoRight is disingenuous.  If I had to pick a particularly heated conflict I'm aware of, the one between yourself, GoRight, and WMC would probably rate near or at the top of the list. There is a lot of history here and you are about as involved with GoRight as any user can be involved with any other user. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 19:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I have no issue with us debating whether there was a COI - but B, are you sure you want to say "abuse of the administrative tools"? Surely even if your view is that Raul was involved, this was a misjudgment? IOW, was the ''block itself bad'', or merely who did it? [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup> 18:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::If he was really under 1RR, then a block by an uninvolved admin could have been appropriate.  I looked at the previous ban discussion at [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive466#Continued_baiting_and_harassment_by_User:GoRight]] and it looks like, among other things, GoRight agreed to ''"3. I have taken the RfC process to heart and have been voluntarily adopting a WP:1RR policy (although there may be rare exceptions) and I have been consistently WP:CIV in my edit summaries and talk page comments."''  Unless there is a community imposition of an absolute 1RR, all this says is "I will hold to 1RR unless I don't want to", which is not anything I would think enforceable by a block.  In any event, Raul in part provoked the incident by using the admin rollback tool to revert GoRight's edits.  Everyone knows that is considered to be an insult.  If he were not an admin, it wouldn't even be controversial that his rollback privileges would be taken away.  Blocking is to be used to prevent disruption, not to win a content dispute.  Was there any real threat of imminent disruption here?  I'm not seeing it and so no, the block was not a good block. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 19:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::He was not blocked for violating the 1rr he claims to adhere to. He was blocked for a continuing pattern of disruption, which is blockable, and for which there is a great deal of evidence, and not a single productive edit to balance it out. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 20:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Nor was I the one who provoked the incident. GoRight provoked it by making this series of inflammatory edits [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263008532&oldid=256925760][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263012098&oldid=263008532][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263015240&oldid=263012098] which were rightfully reverted by Kim [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263015393&oldid=263015240] as being disruptive. Goright reverted Kim [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263018198&oldid=263015393]. I warned GoRight against any further disruption on GW articles, and afterwards I reverted the article back to the version that has been there for weeks prior to GoRight's editing. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 20:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::There is nothing inflammatory about those edits - all three were in good faith and there is no way that an unbiased, uninvolved admin would consider them to be disruptive. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 21:17, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Wrong on all counts. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Deniers&diff=263015393&oldid=263015240][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Deniers&diff=263044562&oldid=263020617][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=263121843] [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 21:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Maybe you posted the wrong diff?  Are you really providing comments by yourself and WMC as evidence that an uninvolved admin would find GoRight's edits disruptive?  Also, of those 3 diffs, only yours makes any hint of the edits being disruptive.  Because other editors disagree with something or revert it does not mean that the original edit was disruptive, and it certainly doesn't make the edit blockable. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 21:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm sorry, is this another one of your "they should have used these these magic words" arguments? Kim, WMC, and I were the ones who responded to GoRight's edits, and no one else did. And all of us argued against them. Neither Kim or WMC called them disruptive in so many words, but if we were to ask them, I'm pretty sure they would call his edits disruptive. 
::::::::::And you're right, that reverting an edit is not, by itself, evidence of disruption. On the other hand, 94% (34 out of 36, according to the RFC) of GoRight's edits are revert warring. That's a pretty conclusive sign of disruption. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 22:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

* Sigh...especially when I remember one of my comments from the past: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive438#Disruption_by_GoRight "I don't think it's advisable for a block to be imposed by an admin who is considered involved - none of us want a very avoidable controversy and drama to follow...Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)"] [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 19:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

From a past interaction with Raul654 over a similar issue, I feel safe in saying that anyone who feels as User:B does would be wasting their time posting further here in the hope of persuading Raul654 to do anything differently in the future.  Whether other avenues are likely to lead to other results is dubious, of course, but the method of behavioral modification by noticeboard harangue is even less likely to work here than for other admins. [[User talk:Thatcher|Thatcher]] 21:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:[[User:Thatcher/Quis custodiet ipsos custodes#Examples|What could Thatcher be referring to?]] [[User:Mike R|Mike R]] ([[User talk:Mike R|talk]]) 22:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:And herein lies the problem.  Nobody questions that Raul does very good work for Wikipedia and that his work over the years with featured articles is some of the finest service given to Wikipedia by anyone.  But the blind eye that is turned to his use of the content tools in content disputes is more than troubling.  Also troubling is the link Mike posted.  Are you saying that one of the people in those examples is Raul or am I reading too much into this?  Is there a checkuser who would be willing to answer the question for me of whether or not I have ever been checkusered? --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 22:34, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::He is almost certainly Smith on the page linked. [[User:Giggy|Giggy]] ([[User talk:Giggy|talk]]) 07:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

===Is Raul654 per our standards "involved" on global warming articles?===
That is the standard of whether or not he's allowed to act as anything but a regular editor on these, same as for any other admin, arb, checkuser, or whatever else. Same rules apply to every admin, of course. So, is Raul an "involved editor" on global warming, or has he just been acting as an admin? If the former, he shouldn't even block any GW-related things beyond blatant vandals. If the latter, he can block, Checkuser, etc. Which is it? [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 21:56, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:Using the edit counter, here are his most-edited articles:
::{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|-
| Edits 
|Article
|-
| 528	
| {{la|Yom Kippur War}}
|-
|290	
|{{la|Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima}}
|-
|287	
|{{la|Battle of Dien Bien Phu}}
|-
|207	
|{{la|Global warming}}
|-
|188	
|{{la|Free speech zone}}
|-
|133	
|{{la|Akutan Zero}}
|-
|128	
|{{la|Parallel computing}}
|-
|115	
|{{la|Jim Inhofe}}
|-
|96	
|{{la|Evolution}}
|-
|81	
|{{la|The Swimming Hole}}
|-
|77	
|{{la|The Great Global Warming Swindle}}
|-
|77	
|{{la|Operation Downfall}}
|-
|76	
|{{la|AIDS}}
|-
|70	
|{{la|Yahya Ayyash}}
|-
|69	
|{{la|Cat gap}}
|-
|colspan="2"|<small><nowiki>http://toolserver.org/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=Raul654&site=en.wikipedia.org</nowiki></small>
|}
:I certainly would not consider him uninvolved in the topic area.  In THIS PARTICULAR CASE, he was in a discussion with GoRight at [[Talk:Global_warming#More_recognition_of_dismissive_reports_and_data]], so even if you don't accept that Raul should never use his admin tools controversially in the global warming topic area, in this particular case it's pretty unquestionable that there was an active dispute with this particular user. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 22:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

::For discussion purposes, I looked up all the Global Warming related blocks he's done (excluding the hundreds of [[User:Scibaby]] and Scibaby Checkuser blocks:

::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Raul654&page=User%3ALogicus&year=&month=-1 October 2008 block of Logicus], 24 hours for "Disruption on the global warming article"
::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Raul654&page=User%3ADalej78&year=&month=-1 September 2008 block of Dalej78], 24 hours for "Repeated disruption on global warming related articles; numerous talk page warnings (mostly blanked)"
::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Raul654&page=User%3AObedium&year=&month=-1 November 2007 block of Obedium], 1 week for Nov 16 vandalism of global warming article, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=171841271 this edit] was his only November 16 edit to [[Global Warming]]. Later indeffed by Raul as a sock of someone.
::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3A199.82.243.71 October 2007 199.82.243.71] block for 1 week for Edits to Great Global Warming Swindle; overturned by Ryan Postlewaite. That would be these edits: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle&diff=prev&oldid=164972481][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle&diff=prev&oldid=164973106]. The IP has no other edits to anything even related to Global Warming.
::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3A70.144.68.148 July 2007 block of 70.144.68.148], 1 week for "POV pushing on Great Global Warming Swindle". Were the edits pushing a POV? Sure, but there wasn't even a warning (note his talk page doesn't even exist).
::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3ABrittainia July 2007 block of Brittania] for edit warring on Global Warming. The edit warring was three ''total'' reverts on June 30 2007, July 3 2007, and July 4 2007.
::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3A68.145.124.154 June 2007 block of 68.145.124.154] for 1 week for POV pushing on a global warming article. These edits: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle&diff=prev&oldid=137047738][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle&diff=prev&oldid=137048012][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle&diff=prev&oldid=137357981] the third of which was undoing Raul's undoing of the IP's edit
::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AJonMoseley Nov 2006 block of JonMosely twice], first 24 hours for POV pushing global warming, then 2 days later indefinitely for the same thing. His edits on his last day: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=90368222][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=90372397][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=90372807][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=90373066]
::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3A82.42.236.106 September 2006 block of 82.42.236.106] for 1 week for POV pushing on global warming article. These edits: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=75621251][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=75622231][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=75622502], this one was clearly pushing actually unsourced POV content.
::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3A24.82.193.125 September 2006 1 week block of 24.82.193.125] for POV pushing global warming. 

::Raul also has 199 edits to [[Talk:Global warming]] out of 19040 total edits there, and has been active on the talk page since 2006-05-17 according to [http://vs.aka-online.de/cgi-bin/wppagehiststat.pl this tool]. For context. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 22:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::You've effectively answered your own question: I don't edit the global warming article all that much. My edit count relative to the total is low, most of my edits were made years ago when it was on the FAC, and my last edit there was 3 months ago. At the same time, as an admin, I deal with the many troublemakers that article attracts. (By the way, in your list above, Obedium is a scibaby sockpuppet; Britannia is an unmarked sockpuppet of Rameses; and the anons were part of an organized off-site attack on the TGGWS article). I participate in the talk pages occasionally, but much of that too is related to Scibaby. Since GoRight's return and prior to my warning to him, my only interaction with GoRight was initiated by him. (I made a comment to Jaimaster about the GW FAQ, and GoRight responded with a snarky comment, baiting people to reply) [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 23:34, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
*...No.  A content dispute is a content dispute.  If raul said "this paragraph stays" and GoRight says "this paragraph goes" and Raul says "I'll block you and keep the paragraph", ''that'' is a content dispute impacting his ability to judge a behavior problem.  If I blocked someone editing a warhammer online article because I've edited [[Warhammer 40,000]], that's not a content dispute. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 03:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

* Based on all this, despite being thought of probably by some people as associated with the GW articles, I don't think Raul can be today considered involved. I don't see a problem with him acting as an admin here for these articles. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 03:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
**Even if it were granted that Raul is not de facto involved in all global warming disputes, I'm not sure how anyone could argue that he is uninvolved with GoRight.  Users who have longstanding disputes with one another should not use admin tools against one another. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 10:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
:::No, that is wrong. That way we disqualify admins that first try to solve problems by warning and discussion, and those previously involved in admin actions against a user. These are exactly those that are most qualified to handle the case. Admins that are involved in substantial independent disputes with the user, or in a content dispute, should refrain from administrative action, yes. But all of Raul's interaction with GoRight was trying to get him to conform to our content and behavior policies. --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 11:43, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I agree with [[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]]. There is no conflict here b/c Raul was trying to get GoRight to follow community guidelines and norms. Raul is also acting appropriately as admin in the Global Warming articles. GoRight should have a community ban and this witchhunt on Raul should stop.--[[User:SouthernNights|SouthernNights]] ([[User talk:SouthernNights|talk]]) 13:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I urge anyone interested to read [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/GoRight]]. "Majority opinion" in that RfC is a bit tricky. The consensus of ''uninvolved editors'' was that there had been plenty of misbehavior to go around, including that of editors who have once again complained, here, about GoRight, and that GoRight's behavior was no worse than that of others. Raul654 is definitely ''involved.'' Raul654, if he was ''attempting to get [GoRight] to conform to our content and behavior policies,'' should probably be warned not to do so uncivilly, see the RfC. GoRight was abused. I was hoping to let sleeping dogs lie, but, entirely independently, came across this discussion. Witch hunt? Raul654 brought this here. Nobody was pursuing him. Anyway, I've seen COI issues pop up frequently with Raul654. Maybe it's about time this was confronted. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 23:30, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
::Abd is obfuscating the issue. The RFC opinion with the most supports was the one written by Stephan Schultz, and supported by essentially all of the people who have to deal with GoRight on a regular basis. And it said that more-or-less everything in the initial description was correct, and that GoRight contributes little if anything of value to Wikipedia. The other opinions stated, essentially, that GoRight was not alone in his misbehavor. Nobody (except possibly Coolhandluke, whose judgment in these matters is questionable) argued his behavior was acceptable. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 08:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

:The block was procedurally incorrect because an involved admin made it (involved with GoRight, if not Global Warming). It should be lifted. ''Then'' a community ban discussion should proceed. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 07:37, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
::Coolhandluke is incorrect in all counts - first, Aitias has already lifted the block; I was not involved either with GoRight as the evidence supplied by Rootology above shows, or the GW articles in general except as an admin; and that no such requirement (that community sanction discussions take place while the user being discussed is unblocked) exists in policy. I'll also note that Coolhandluke himself has intervened in these articles in the past to support GoRight's misbehavior (claiming on GoRight's RFC that ''apart from his misguided push to edit an OpEd source on a BLP (William Connolley), his actions have been well-taken, and conscientious.'' - this was during a time where 34 out of GoRight's 36 edits were edit warring). I echo Thuran's comment below that GoRight has essentially mastered the trolling tactic if picking a fight with actives administrators to prevent action on disruptive editing. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 08:01, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Then don't fall for it. Get someone else to issue the block.
:::Anyhow, I agree with ThuranX insofar that this is an unhelpful diversion. Should close these sections and open a discussion for community ban because there's clearly a case. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 08:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that few Admins do the long term legwork needed to substantiate the value of the actions they take in such situations, especially in predictable cases, like GoRight's. Raul took the time to build a solid case against GoRight, while continuing to edit all over. It's inevitable that disruptive users who manipulate past community tolerances but not to the level of binding community intolerance can, and will (often deliberately) cross paths with their biggest opponents; it's a great defensive tactic. If your opponents are made vulnerable, then they're impotent, under our system. The trolls are learning this; many have mastered it. We can sit around and say 'sure, Raul should've brought it to another admin', but then we'd be here anyways, because admins like Aitais fall for the troll's line, unblock, and it winds up here. This entire section has rapidly become about Raul and procedure, not about a disruptive troll and whether his block should become a ban. Quite the opposite. Cool Hand Luck insists we unblock, punish Raul, then consider whether to reblock/ban, by which time the 'punishment not prevention' mantra will be invoked, and we'll be here in 6 months again, when whoever picks up where raul left off in watching this troll cut across WP will be brought up for blocking GoRight. This is a systemic problem: Admins cannot monitor perpetual problem users without becoming "involved', which is a vague enough word anyways on here. If an admin monitors, they can't block, they are accused of failing AGF, and more. This is absurd. In the real world, GoRight would've been fired/benched/ asked to leave the restaurant long ago, and we'd all be glad we could do our work/eat our meal in more peace. ban goRight now, save everyone the song and dance of some procedurally questionable 'right way', and be done. [[User:ThuranX|ThuranX]] ([[User talk:ThuranX|talk]]) 07:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:Excuse me, you've misunderstood my view. I don't think anyone should be "punished," but this community ban discussion should proceed with GoRight's participation. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 08:00, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
{{discussion bottom}}
===GoRight community discussion (cont'd)===
Getting away from the red herring above, a number of editors have now supported a community ban for GoRight. His behavior has continued unabated for 2 years, despite multiple administrative steps to correct it (multiple ANI threads, an RFC, community sanctions). More-or-less all of the people who edit the articles he does have weighed in support of banning him. Virtually all of his edits are revert warring, and he does not contribute to any non-GW articles. I think it's time to put a community ban into effect. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 08:40, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:Just to give one representative example of the kind of stuff GoRight does: during his last stint of edits, he started nine (yes, nine) simultaneous edit wars. One of them was him adding a claim to the global warming article that global warming can cause earthquakes. He modified our global warming article to say that global warming might cause earthquakes, and cited it to a Fox News article which essentially said "Fringe scientist claims global warming causes earthquakes (But everyone else disagrees)." On further investigation, we found out that Fox News had already retracted the article, and that GoRight was aware of this retraction from the first time he cited it in our global warming article. This is the nonsense we have to deal with from him. 
[[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 09:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
::Please provide link to Fox retraction and a diff showing GoRight knew of it. Three diffs at least for the nine edit wars would be useful. [[User:Mccready|Mccready]] ([[User talk:Mccready|talk]]) 10:44, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:::The same story was reported in MSNBC, CBS, and the AP (not Fox, my mistake), then withdrawn by the AP and CBS. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=220650755 Here], GoRight admits he is aware of its withdrawal by the AP and CBS, but that we should go ahead and cite the MSNBC article: ''Don't let the fact that CBS News and the AP have backtracked'' (withdrawn the story) ''stop you. MSNBC is considered a credible news source, is it not?'' [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 18:19, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

::::Here are GoRight's edit warring diffs that you asked for: 
::::* William M. Gray - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_M._Gray&diff=222765804&oldid=222732632][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_M._Gray&diff=221571981&oldid=221541522][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_M._Gray&diff=221537092&oldid=221489552][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_M._Gray&diff=221054666&oldid=220944075][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_M._Gray&diff=220925674&oldid=220501400]
::::* William Connolley - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_Connolley&diff=229342012&oldid=229337987][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_Connolley&diff=221536290&oldid=221524255][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_Connolley&diff=221521453&oldid=221519474][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_Connolley&diff=221509362&oldid=221488412]
::::* Fred Singer - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fred_Singer&diff=222662353&oldid=222655563][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fred_Singer&diff=222596431&oldid=222577080][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fred_Singer&diff=222570107&oldid=222565771][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fred_Singer&diff=222565771&oldid=222492488][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fred_Singer&diff=222490517&oldid=222482044]
::::* Global warming controversy - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming_controversy&diff=222820590&oldid=222512700]
::::* An Inconvenient Truth - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=An_Inconvenient_Truth&diff=222762068&oldid=222712638]
::::* Lawrence Solomon - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lawrence_Solomon&diff=228065841&oldid=228031865][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lawrence_Solomon&diff=227916158&oldid=227912155][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lawrence_Solomon&diff=226923453&oldid=226919201][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lawrence_Solomon&diff=226923453&oldid=226919201][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lawrence_Solomon&diff=224033175&oldid=223992222]
::::* Real Climate - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RealClimate&diff=227772182&oldid=227677911][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RealClimate&diff=227035086&oldid=227031461]
::::* Global warming - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=221076932&oldid=221033166][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=220940178&oldid=220927185][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=220926545&oldid=220647496][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=220646205&oldid=220639921][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=220638023&oldid=220637026]  - (global warming causes earthquakes, based on a story he already knew had been retracted by the AP and CBS) 
::::Notice that I haven't collected these from separate edit wars that happened over a period of months -- most of the above edits are from one week at the end of June 2008 (and a few from July). This is what happens when GoRight edits regularly - lots of disruption and revert warring. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 06:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC) 

::: If Cool Hand Luke thinks I should participate more in this discussion, I'll try to oblige.

::: I'll save Raul the trouble on the whole earthquake episode and provide the requested links myself.  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=220638023 Here is the original edit] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Global_warming&diff=prev&oldid=220646205 here is my one and only revert] per [[WP:1RR]].  The discussion on the talk page can be found [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Global_warming/Archives/2008/7#Global_Warming_Causes_Earthquakes here].  Does this incident make me look bad?  Yea, probably.  In retrospect I probably shouldn't have done it.  But I still maintain that I was within allowable wikipedia policies and guidelines in doing it as I argued at the time.  Your mileage may vary.

::: Note that this is what Raul is calling an "edit war".  One revert.  Raul would also have you believe that this is a "representative example".  It is not.  It is a cherry picked example and he would be hard pressed to come up with anything similar (excepting, of course, the incidents that lead up to my current sanction which I have respected since it was imposed).

::: I rarely add wholely new material like this.  As I said above my purpose here is to combat the blatant bias that is pervasive in the GW articles.  So mostly I either attempt to reword things to make them more neutral (as in the case of the edit Raul blocked me for) and/or I follow the same sources used by the AGW proponents to make sure they have not been cherry picking.  If they have I try to balance out what the sources have actually said by including the other side of the story from the same sources if possible, or comparable sources if needed.  Probably 80% of my work falls into this mode of operation.

::: If you want to get a feel for what I am really up to check out my updates to any of the following pages: [[The Deniers]], [[Lawrence Solomon]], [[Fred Singer]], [[Robert M. Carter]], [[William M. Gray]], [[An Inconvenient Truth]], [[The Great Global Warming Swindle]], and my participation in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive163#Wilhelmina_Will.27s_DYK_topic_ban this wikidrama].

::: Come to think of it, I don't think that I have actually even edited [[Global Warming]] directly much at all.  How do you do the edit counting thing that I saw above?  --[[User:GoRight|GoRight]] ([[User talk:GoRight|talk]]) 17:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

::I've looked through GoRight's self-justifications above, and in particular at the example GoRight links. That was clearly edit warring against consensus, inserting information on the basis of unreliable sources and deleting properly sourced content to present a misleading impression. A community ban is evidently in order. . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 09:50, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:::This discussion is almost certainly going to end just as all the others have: with no consensus.  The issue here is that any sort of edit that "rocks the boat" on the GW articles it bitch-slapped by the [[WP:OWN]]ers so quickly and users are labeled as trolls, sockpuppets, or edit warriors so immediately that [[WP:BRD]] is impossible.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are several well-respected editors around the GW pages who are less civil than GoRight is and I don't believe his behavior in particular should be singled out for a ban. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 18:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
::::With partisan topics, there never really is a consensus. I think that ImperfectlyInformed (II) is right when he says we should have some sort of jury system for these sorts of disputes. Almost everyone commenting here has been involved before, including me. For the record, I think GoRight's editing since returning has been somewhat more provocative, which is disappointing because I hoped that the RFC would improve his behavior. If there's no improvement, blocks should be issued&mdash;but not by partisans in these articles. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 22:42, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Even though ThoranX is referring to me as a troll (which is not very [[WP:CIV]]), I kind of agree with his sentiment.  There really is no reason to drag this whole thing out.  The simple fact of the matter is that I am a dissenting voice up against a small group (and it is well known who they are) of editors who believe that they [[WP:OWN]] anything even remotely related to GW and they tag team revert anyone with a dissenting opinion.  Once the discussion is on the talk pages they simply refuse to agree to anything and so nothing but their views are represented.

This ultimately leads to some low-level of reverting back and forth.  But in all of the "revert wars" that Raul is complaining about how many [[WP:3RR]] blocks occurred?  How many went on for days and weeks as so many of the real "revert wars" do?  None.  If that level of activity is disruptive then I guess I am guilty, but don't forget that there are always two sides in every revert war.

As a dissenting voice anything I change is going to be viewed as disruptive to the status quo.  That is inevitable.  Raul labels me a "Polite POV pusher."  This is a silly term.  It describes anyone who wants to operate properly within the rules and policies to bring change to an entrenched status quo.  If I am not [[WP:CIV]] I am violating policy and I get bannd.  If I say something the status quo disagrees with they label me disruptive simply because they disagree with my POV.  They don't want to have to bother to keep defending their position.  It is easier to simply dispatch with the naysayer as Raul is attempting to do now.

So ultimately, the real question on the table here is not whether I am disruptive or not, but whether wikipedia and its community is strong enough to allow dissenting voices to participate.  As a dissenting voice the entrenched status quo will always view me as disruptive.  That is why it is important for independent observers to be the ones to weigh the issues, not the regular participants of which Raul most certainly is one.  It is no surprise that he was able to make this statement above: "''Kim, WMC, and I were the ones who responded to GoRight's edits, '''and no one else did'''. And all of us argued against them.''"  This just illustrates my point here.

So, are you as a community going to allow a dissenting voice to remain or are you going to cast it out?  It is your decision.  --[[User:GoRight|GoRight]] ([[User talk:GoRight|talk]]) 18:40, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:If your purpose in being here is to be a "dissenting voice" and you are not here to write an encyclopedia, then you are here for the wrong reason. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 19:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

:: We're arguing semantics.  I believe that I said "''As I said above my purpose here is to combat the blatant bias that is pervasive in the GW articles.''"  The fact that I am a dissenting (relative to the status quo) voice merely refers to which side of the debate I am on.  Like most editors I focus on the things that interest me, so the fact that I am a single issue editor should not bias anyone against me.  This is perfectly allowable.

:: The fact that I am here to write an encyclopedia (or at least a specific part thereof) goes without saying.  If all I wanted to do was be a vandal my life would be far simpler if I just used a bunch of socks.  I don't.  Instead I take the time to come and defend myself.

:: The question at hand is are you going to strive to have a balanced encyclopedia by including voices that challenge and are critical of the IPCC view, or are you not.  If you want wikipedia to merely be a rubber stamp for the IPCC then blank all of the articles and leave a pointer to the IPCC reports as this would save a great deal of time and trouble.  If, on the other hand, you want to provide a balanced perspective as wikipedia policies state we should be doing, then you have to allow the dissenting voices to act as a check against the rubber stamp.  --[[User:GoRight|GoRight]] ([[User talk:GoRight|talk]]) 19:43, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

There is chatter above about discussing a community ban - has this discussion commenced elsewhere or is this the only place it is being discussed? I have some comments on the matter and I was going to make them here, but if there is a community ban discussion elsewhere I'll go there. [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 00:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:The discussion is right here in this very section.  If you'd like to weigh in on the issue, this would be the place. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 03:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

In [[User:Raul654/GoRight]], why are the edits listed under "Politcal back-scratching" being used as some sort of evidence of GoRight's misbehavior?  They have nothing to do with Global Warming or edit warring.  They all seem to relate to an issue I was involved in as well - trying to get [[User:Wilhelmina Will]]'s brief DYK topic ban overturned.  Whatever one thinks of the merits of the topic ban, as far as I can tell, WW has been editing productively and has earned several more DYKs since the ban was lifted.  So how were GoRight's attempts to get that ban lifted some sort of misconduct? The fact that these edits are being used as evidence of misconduct makes me wonder about the validity of the rest of the accusations. [[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 03:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:It has nothing to do with Wilhelmina at all; it pertains to GoRight's interactions with Abd. Specifically, GoRight's support of Adb's advocacy, and later lobbying in order to get Abd unbanned, while Abd was simultaneously involved in lobbying on GoRight's behalf, in order to prevent GoRight from being community sanctioned or banned (by obfuscating the issues, both on GoRight's RFC and further up this thread). I've edited the page to make this more clear. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 03:52, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I wasn't banned, I was indef blocked, first and only. Complicated little incident, triggered by a warning from one admin who has since apologized, and with whom I have since enjoyed a good sense of community and cooperation, the block being implemented by another whom I haven't approached, she essentially washed her hands of it (from the start, saying that she wouldn't object to an unblock), and it seems more wikidrama than it's worth to address it with her, and I wouldn't dream of causing massive fuss without first going the simple route. The admin whom I allegedly "attacked" shortly thereafter suggested and granted me rollback. Now, while I was blocked, yes, GoRight felt obligated, because I'd done so much work researching his case and documenting the abuse of him, by Raul654 among others, to take up the cause of Wilhelmina Will, which he did civilly and excellently, no thanks to Raul654. Obfuscating the issues? I made them ''clear'' by NPOV description, in my comments and linked files for [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/GoRight]] of what had happened, with detailed diffs and analysis, whereas Raul654 simply blusters about with accusations, or pushes the block button when he's irritated. And when other editors or admins question it, he just blows them off. The ''last'' person to accuse GoRight of misconduct would be Raul654. GoRight can't hold a candle to him. However, Raul654 is losing it. Read the above, it's incoherent. He wrote the RfC on GoRight and it was quite a mess. I'd urge anyone who'd like a deeper understanding of what's going on here to read the whole thing. Banning GoRight would be a gross injustice, when his accuser, whose behavior is worse and more dangerous, walks free. I'd say they should both be free, though I have some doubt about those admin tools. If GoRight is abusive, let an uninvolved admin block him, just as any of us who become abusive should be blocked. Any of us. There is, indeed, massive incivility in this discussion on the part of Raul654. Has anyone warned him? Or blocked him? If GoRight wrote as Raul654 has written, he'd be blocked in a flash. Does anyone here doubt this? So, admins, this is your noticeboard, are you noticing this? Friends of Raul654, warn your friend! He's not likely to listen to the rest of us. And, Raul654, your block of GoRight was a clear COI block, and you ''will'' lose your tools if this goes before ArbComm. There are at least a few other improper blocks I'm aware of, I've protested at least one to you, and I've seen others protest. You have a chance to turn away from this, it's clear that your support is falling apart, editors are no longer believing that it's true just because you say so. Whom do you trust? Who could mediate this? --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 07:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::Thank you for the explanation.  I am still not sure I would consider that particular item misconduct, but I understand where you are coming from. [[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 04:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::: <s>"''GoRight's support of Adb's advocacy''" - Yep, I helped defend a little girl when she was wrongly accused and improperly sanctioned.  It's all part of my nefarious scheme to destroy wikipedia.  --[[User:GoRight|GoRight]] ([[User talk:GoRight|talk]]) 04:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)</s>
::::Sarcasm is not helpful. [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 05:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Sigh, you are of course correct.  I shall strike the comment and hereby apologize for having made it.  --[[User:GoRight|GoRight]] ([[User talk:GoRight|talk]]) 05:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::The "nefarious scheme" part was sarcastic; but the defending the little girl (actually a teenager) part was accurate. It was a shocking example of how badly things can go on AN/I. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 07:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Raul, I have browsed through your evidence on [[User:Raul654/GoRight|this page]] and after looking at the first dozen or so links, half way down the page, I found no evidence whatsoever that would justify banning. For a community ban, I would hope you could provide something more than a few very minor reverts and some civil talk page debate, which is all I've found so far. I don't even see individual instances of abuse, let alone a pattern. Can you please highlight what you perceive to be the worst example of ''recent'' abuse, with links? [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 05:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:The fact that you can look at diffs documented on that page (like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Everyking_3&diff=234510944&oldid=234506484 this] (personal attacks) and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Robert_M._Carter&diff=prev&oldid=234509123 this] (ludicrously false BLP claims)) and claim that he's not disruptive says more about your own judgment than it does about GoRight's behavior. As to his most disruptive recent edits, it's clearly the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AGlobal_warming&diff=261490337&oldid=261489864 his edits to talk global warming], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:GoRight#Please_tone_down_on_your_POV... his behavior/comments on his talk page in response to it]. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 05:18, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::Is that really the best you have?  To call that first one a personal attack or to call '''removing''' a potentially questionable source a "ludicrously false BLP claim" really seems like grasping for straws. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 05:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::(A) If not a personal attack, the first one is a clear example of being a a dick. Kim Peterson's description of GoRight comes to mind - ''His entire method of operation, seems to be driving at pissing off people, so much that they will be seen as the "wrong-doers" instead of engaging in a reasonable consensus building''. (B) It was not a potentially questionable source. It was a perfectly reliable source (The Sydney Morning Herald, a print newspaper in Australia), making a perfectly ordinary claim (that an marine geologist doesn't have much standing in the climatology field). Claiming that this is "extraordinary" in order to remove it is a misuse of the BLP policy, and an obvious one at that. Moreover, I notice you didn't mention his edits on the GW talk page - perhaps because they are obviously indefensible?  [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 05:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Raul, with respect to the diff where GoRight calls AGW scientists lobbyists, I don't particularly agree with it, but I've seen you call people lobbyists in a derisive manner, and you weren't blocked for it, nor were your edits struck. GoRight's comments were on a talk page, in the context of a debate about the reliability of sources - while I don't agree with GoRight, and even if I did I would have phrased it differently, this is not block/ban-worthy. Not at all. And if it is, then should you yourself not be subject to the same sanction for calling others lobbyists in the past? [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 08:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::: "(A) ''If not a personal attack, the first one is a clear example of being a a dick.''" - And you are accusing me of being uncivil?  Does anyone else see the irony here?
:::: "''(B) ... making a perfectly ordinary claim ...''" - Well if this is so common place perhaps you can provide a handful of other examples of similar claims being made against other scientists in the MSM?  --[[User:GoRight|GoRight]] ([[User talk:GoRight|talk]]) 05:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::::: Based on the information here I do not think a ban on GoRight is appropriate.  Personal attacks should not be tolerated by either side of the argument and the editors should voluntarily strike the comments.  Thank you.  --[[User:Theblog|Theblog]] ([[User talk:Theblog|talk]]) 05:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::: (ec @ Raul) "''I notice you didn't mention his edits on the GW talk page - perhaps because they are obviously indefensible?''" - I can defend them.  The first is a statement of fact.  James Hansen does, in fact, lobby congress all the time.  As for the second statement, referring to climate scientists as "AGW Scientologists" is clearly no more offensive than comparing skeptics to "Holocaust Deniers".  Something else that James Hansen has done.  Just read his BLP.  --[[User:GoRight|GoRight]] ([[User talk:GoRight|talk]]) 06:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::GoRight, I respectfully suggest: shut up! Stop defending yourself. Somebody wants to attack you, ignore it. Let others defend you, or not, as they choose. Your life does not depend on Wikipedia. I'm going to comment above on some of what's been said, but if I commented on every error I see, I'd be doing nothing else, and I have kids to take care of, totally insane at my age. Cool Hand Luke has said that he's disappointed that you've been provocative. My advice: ask him what you should do. And follow his advice, he won't lead you astray. As to irony, yes, what, do you think we are blind? It may seem crazy, but ... trust the community. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 06:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::: Sigh, again.  Fine.  I need to go to bed anyway.  You go take care of the kids as that should be your priority.  --[[User:GoRight|GoRight]] ([[User talk:GoRight|talk]]) 07:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::''I notice you didn't mention his edits on the GW talk page - perhaps because they are obviously indefensible?'' - Quite the contrary.  These points weren't addressed because their inclusion here is hilarious.  Various admins and respected editors make worse comments about AGW skeptics on an at least weekly basis and nobody calls them out because, like GoRight's edits, the only possible complaint about them is [[WP:FORUM]]. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 08:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Good idea, GoRight, you go right.

Somewhere above Raul654 notes that the comment by Stephen Schulz in [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/GoRight]] attracted the most support comments. That's true. At the evidence page I compiled while the RfC was active, [[User:Abd/GoRight#Users commenting in RfC]]. I analyzed the edit history of those who commented, with relation to the research I had done on the involved articles (which is above that on that page). This was to determine who had been involved in edit warring with GoRight, whether in opposition to him or supporting him. Stephen Schulz himself had been involved, and so had most commenters. They were not neutral. The comment that attracted the most support from neutral editors was that of [[User:JeremyMcCracken]]. Two of those supporters were recently elected to ArbComm. I was, by the way, entirely uninvolved with GoRight before this RfC. I became involved when I saw the RfC about to be closed due to a technical defect, and I intervened to keep it open, I may even have completed the opening, I forget. Then I actually read the thing, and I was horrified, so I did the research to make a comment. So I was, at that point, a neutral editor. I would no longer treat myself that way, though I don't agree with GoRight's POV in his special interest area, [[Global warming]]. My position, though, is that we need editors with all varieties of POV to participate in forming the genuine consensus that marks NPOV, there really is no other clear sign of it. So blocking "civil POV-pushers" is entirely the wrong idea, we should engage them, and only block for gross and persistent incivility, edit warring, and the like. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 08:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:People should look at the weight of support and the supposed "neutrality" of supporters in the RfC. Abd has what I consider "surprising" criteria for classification of users as neutral/non-neutral. --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 08:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC) 

So, Raul, you accuse him of a personal attack, then when someone rightly calls you on the fact that it wasn't really a personal attack, you call him a dick? Do you not see the irony in that? Clearly you believe that GoRight should be held to a more strict standard than yourself.

Further, you have presented probably two dozen diffs as evidence above - ''and they are all from last summer''. Weren't those issues already dealt with in the RfC and community ban discussions? Wasn't it agreed at that time that GoRight should stay away from WMC but would not otherwise be sanctioned? What has he done recently to evade that ban? What ''recent diffs'' do you have showing abuse?

I'll repeat: I've seen no evidence of recent behavior that would warrant even a warning, let alone a ban. Please enlighten me with ''recent evidence'' in case I missed something. [[User:ATren|ATren]] ([[User talk:ATren|talk]]) 08:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:The only possible explanation why Raul can't post any serious disruptive edits here since the last RfC is because there aren't any.  This entire proceeding appears to be little more than an attempt to [[WP:FORUMSHOP]] by retrying the previous RfC again.  For Raul, I'd ask this: what has changed since the last RfC that leads you to believe the results of this will be any different?  Why can't you support this attempt at a ban without using old diffs, tame comments jazzed up with extreme descriptions ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AGlobal_warming&diff=261490337&oldid=261489864 this] is "indefensible"?), accusations of "political backscratching" (yes, let's ban someone because he supported someone else at a noticeboard), or inconclusive sockpuppetry accusations?  [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 08:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
== Administrator reposting deleted content? ==

{{resolved}}
According to the [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123129220146959621.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Wall Street Journal]:
:John Soong, 18, says that after he had failed to get jobs at several chains that use the test, he began to poke around for an answer key, driven by "altruistic, and maybe vengeful," motives. In a discussion section of a Wikipedia entry, he saw a mention of a set of Unicru statements and answers that had been posted there but removed. Using privileges as a volunteer Wikipedia administrator, which gave him access to deleted page histories, Mr. Soong, a University of Virginia student, was able to recover the answer key and re-post it on Facebook.
Is this appropriate behaviour from an admin? - [[User:Tbsdy lives|Tbsdy lives]] (formerly [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]]) <sup>[[User talk:Tbsdy lives|talk]]</sup> 11:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:Already been discussed here, will see if I can find the link. '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #AC0000">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #1F3F53">Why</span>]]''' 11:19, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::Here you go: [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Admin misusing viewdeleted]]. Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #AC0000">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #1F3F53">Why</span>]]''' 11:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Cheers... good to hear! - [[User:Tbsdy lives|Tbsdy lives]] (formerly [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]]) <sup>[[User talk:Tbsdy lives|talk]]</sup> 11:24, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
== January 13th is miscellaneous Good Deed day...for [[WP:PR]] ==

OK, everbody's Good Deed for the Day today...help someone else write an article!, --> Go to [[WP:PR]], take 5 mins (or more, but even a quick peek may be helpful) to look and drop a few notes on a PR candidate, anything, doesn't matter, pretty quick and easy to find some content or prose issues. Go for it and make WP a better place! Cheers, [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 03:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:Here you go again....recklessly attempting to improve the encyclopedia - [[User:Peripitus |Peripitus]] [[User talk:Peripitus|(Talk)]] 04:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
OK? ... not sure I understand how that automated script actually works, what I posted appeared to show up on a different page than what I thought I was posting to though.  I hope it went to the right place.  (Bride of Frankenstein) [[User:Ched Davis|Ched]] ([[User talk:Ched Davis|talk]]) 04:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)  it ended up posting here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Bride_of_Frankenstein/archive1 ... is that right? [[User:Ched Davis|Ched]] ([[User talk:Ched Davis|talk]]) 04:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:You did fine.  The article author has responded to your post with a question, which you can answer just below his question (preferably typing <nowiki>**</nowiki> just before your comment in order to properly indent), if you like. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 23:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
== Dan Schneider inserting spam links again ==

{{resolved}}

There was a problem a few months ago with a critic called Dan Schneider adding spam links to his own reviews at the bottom of countless film pages. This was resolved after considerable debate and countless accusations and counter accusations to aliases and vendettas etc and eventually his aliases were removed and the problem solved- there was also a problem with him stretching his own wikipedia article to ridiculous lengths but this was eventually, again after considerable debate, resolved after about 8/10 of the article was removed and the remainder placed under protection.
The pages I have removed the new links from include:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyricon_(film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenzy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliverance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_wrath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wages_of_Fear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aguirre,_the_Wrath_of_God http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bicycle_Thieves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_1/2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Double_Life_of_Veronique


But there's bound to be countless more, including many that already had the links taken from by myself and others a few months ago. Some details of what happened last time are on my talk page
He's very prolific and due to upcoming exams and other commitments I cannot do much myself and would like the Admin to get involved again if possible.

Many of the links appear to be to a site called www.noripcord.com and www.altfg.com

Thanks, and sorry if this is in the wrong section. ([[User:StevenEdmondson|StevenEdmondson]] ([[User talk:StevenEdmondson|talk]]) 18:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC))

:You may want to contact [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam]]. Also, you can search for linked webpages with [[Special:Linksearch]]. Doesn't seem like you are seeking admin action, correct? You just want more eyes on this subject.-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew&nbsp;c]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 18:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

::I think Admin involvement might be useful seeing as it was only after they got involved last time that the situation was resolved. Last time it just built up into an edit war. But ultimately any help possible would be very useful.([[User:StevenEdmondson|StevenEdmondson]] ([[User talk:StevenEdmondson|talk]]) 18:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC))
:::From what I see, this will take some time to figure out, so [[WT:WPSPAM]] would be the best venue for discussion. Looks like a sockpuppet report and a checkuser will be necessary too. --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] ([[User talk:Ronz|talk]]) 18:28, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Discussion continuing at [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#Dan_Schneider_inserting_spam_links_again]] --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] ([[User talk:Ronz|talk]]) 18:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

* I remember it well and had another purge of Schneider vanispamcruftisement before Christmas.  I'm sure he's evading at least one block by now. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 23:33, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I was just made aware of this discussion. The spam issue with Schneider involved people and sock puppets on both sides of the issue--i.e., both pro and con Schneider. After all this came up the last time, I personally contacted Schneider and he told me that he is not spamming Wikipedia. He said there are a number of people online who harass him online and he suspects this might be another case of this (i.e., to get his site blacklisted by Wikipedia). This view is backed up by comments some sock puppets made around this issue last time. People should feel free to remove any spam links. However, in my opinion this is not a clear cut issue of Schneider being the one to spam Wikipedia.--[[User:SouthernNights|SouthernNights]] ([[User talk:SouthernNights|talk]]) 23:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
::Appears to be resolved per discussion at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#Solution.3F WikiProject Spam]. --[[User:SouthernNights|SouthernNights]] ([[User talk:SouthernNights|talk]]) 00:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

== Current adminbot BRFAs ==

There's currently several open [[WP:BRFA]]s for bots with admin rights that could use some comments:
* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/AntiAbuseBot]]
* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/CAT:TEMP deletion bot]]
* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/JVbot 3]]
* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/CSD R1 Deletion Bot]] (in trial, clone of RedirectCleanupBot)
* [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Main page protection robot]] (in trial, replacement for MPUploadBot)
-- <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 00:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
== PediaPress ==

I just wanted to bring more eyeballs to this situation.  It seems to have been handled hastily.  I should add that I haven't talked to anyone at the Foundation about it.  The user was indef blocked, and userpage deleted, on an accusation of "spamming".  But in fact, this is a partnership with the Foundation, and he was only giving instructions of how to get a printed book of articles using the PediaPress system.  The main thing that concerns me is that the javascript which is clearly opt-in was deleted.  The javascript was not, itself, spam, and it seems premature to speedy it based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

I also doubt if the user should have been blocked so hastily without some discussion, but on the other hand, perhaps I have overlooked something so I am not unblocking.  I did undelete the javascript because I wanted to try it out, but it doesn't work for me so maybe there is something else going on here?--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales|talk]]) 22:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

A relevant few links (please add more if it's helpful):
*[[User:Pediapress]]
*[[User_talk:Pediapress]]
:[[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive502#Pediapress]] appears to be the only discussion relating to this subject. Mind you, if someone who is affiliated with Wikia opens up a account <u>then it might be worth mentioning it on said userpage!</u>. This place is generally staffed by volunteers, not WikiaMedia savvy types and/or mindreaders... [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 22:49, 10 January 2009 (UTC) (but then we knew that, already, didn't we?)
::Is it a partnership with the Wikimedia Foundation or a partnership with Wikia? [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 22:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::It has nothing do with with Wikia.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales|talk]]) 23:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::This appeared in the now deleted userpage, "This page is related to the Mediawiki Collection Extension." Now, I am a complete duffer when it comes to technical aspects of the Wiki(a) world, but it seems to suggest a link - but at no point is there any mention of an affiliation or endorsement or something, so I do not think that it was deleted per WP:IDONTLIKEIT. It simply appears to be an article, created in userspace, that denotes a function that can run with Wikipedia (which, being a wiki, means anyone can write some script and use the 'pedia and sell it). Again, I ask how humble sysops were supposed to be able to tell that this came with an "official" stamp of approval simply by looking at the content..? [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 23:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Well, that makes it sound like some "technical" think within MediaWiki was involved, but I was just curious if this was some official thing the actual WMF signed off on from San Francisco, if this was some 3rd party Wikia or independent project thing? If it's WMF, it probably doesn't need our approval. If it's Wikia or some 3rd party thing it would need local support. I'm lost on what it actually is, as is apparently everyone else. I.e, did the WMF say, "You can do stuff on en.wp for this," or did they say, "You can use the content like the recent 3rd party DVD project"? [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 23:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::I can't answer you, since I don't understand the question (and I read it real slow, too...) [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 23:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
*Useful relevant link [http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikis_Go_Printable Press releases/Wikis Go Printable From the Wikimedia Foundation] [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::Cheers. Said useful link is not included in the two or three versions of the deleted page I reviewed - might have been even more useful if it had. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 23:27, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::It would indeed. Maybe they made the mistake of assuming that Wikipedians would have heard about it. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

**Thank you.  My concern is that blocking the user and deleting the javascript (thus breaking this for anyone who may have been using it) seemed a very extreme response to someone who is clearly working in good faith with the Foundation.  I should add for repeat emphasis: this has nothing to do with Wikia.  No one from PediaPress has asked me about this (I was randomly asked on my user talk page and someone not related to the company asked me about this in email).  Why was the user blocked without (as far as I can see) a chance to respond to a warning?  That seems extreme.  I am not hollering at anyone.  If someone didn't know, no big deal.  I'm a big fan of blocking... and of unblocking. :)--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales|talk]]) 23:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
**:Some admins are quicker to block than others over perceived COIs. Anyway, looks like an interesting idea, and I think an unblock would be nice, maybe with a suggestion that they link to the press release from their userpage. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 23:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
**: It '''looked''' like a simple case of self-aggrandizement on a userpage, using a role account/spamusername. As LessHeard vanU points out, there was nothing on the userpage at that time to indicate anything to the contrary. (I will note in passing that I did not delete their monobook, and don't know whether anybody else did either.) Thanks for the "no big deal", Jimbo; I'm more accustomed to being accused of being an agent of ''eviallllll'' deletionism for blocking spammers, deleting spam, etc. --[[User:Orangemike|<span style="color:darkorange;">Orange Mike</span>]]  &#x007C;  [[User talk:Orangemike|<span style="color:orange;">Talk</span>]] 14:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
**Unblocked, per this discussion. They could have used the <nowiki>{{unblock|''reason''}}</nowiki> function - but it appears that they are about as savvy regarding WP practice and custom as I am with whatever it is that they do. I will drop a notice on the deleting/blocking admins talkpage. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 23:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
***Well, I don't think we can fault them for not using the unblock template, I have no idea if they even knew they were blocked!  They didn't contact me, I just came across this when others called it to my attention.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales|talk]]) 00:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
:Their website at [http://pediapress.com/collection/] has a link to [[User:Pediapress]] as having instructions on how to make collections. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 00:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
::Perhaps their user page could also be restored ...so they can go about amending it to establish their credentials (such as referencing the Foundations support of their activities) and demonstrating this role account is one of the six explicitly allowed role accounts listed on [[meta:Role account]] (which it is not presently).  —[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] ([[User talk:Sladen|talk]]) 00:46, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
*I have undeleted the page and removed the speedy template, with a hidden request not to place any more. If anyone who understands what it is that the page is being used for can edit it, or place a notice, so this doesn't occur again then hopefully the matter will be resolved. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 01:15, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

**I have added a link to the Foundation's press release on both the userpage and the talk page. The userpage just gives instructions on how to create a selection of articles from Wikipedia, and then have them output as a pdf or OpenDocument file, or have them printed and bound as a book. I will add that it seems like a useful service, and I do know that other users have asked about such a service before. One more thing - maybe the Foundation could look at ways of communicating more effectively with Wikipedia editors, so that misunderstandings like this are less likely in the future! [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 01:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

* It is a bit disturbing for me to see someone involing Speedy Deletion criteria G11 on a opt-in MediaWiki user skin extension far far outside the articles. Even if there was no cooperation between WMF and Pediapress, why should we forbid users to customize their user interface with neat features on the web? For about 2 years now, I have a customized search box at en.wp in my user skin that allows me to search the web with google along with wikipedia. Its a small tool for convenience, a search function provided by a company (google) that probably doesn't even know this extension exists. Roughly speaking: It should be of no-ones business what I do with my user skin at Wikipedia as long as I don't interfere with anyone else. -- [[User:Mathias Schindler|Mathias Schindler]] ([[User talk:Mathias Schindler|talk]]) 11:09, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Ugh, I wish someone would have responded to my ANI thread in the first place so this all could have been avoided. UAA blew me off (which was reasonable) and directed me to ANI, which blew me off (except for [[User:Neurolysis]]), so I took it to Jimbo's talk page. What's even more frustrating is that I gave all of the necessary links in the ANI thread, only to have above users say it would have been nice to know them.  ARRGGGHHH!  Their monobook was deleted after I posted on UAA, but no one ever notified the user nor made any statement anywhere. Their userpage was tagged after I posted on Jimbo's talk page, but no one ever notified the user nor made any statement anywhere. And to top it off, none of this was even what I was asking about.  But I digress.  I did what I should have done in the first place, and [[User talk:Pediapress#User:Pediapress/TemplateBlacklist|left a note]] on their friggin' talk page. Rgrds. --[[User:Tombstone|Tombstone]] ([[User talk:Tombstone|talk]]) 13:27, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I have to say, that the lack of response was likely because the situation was not understood at the time (I don't understand it now, FWIW) rather than being "blown off". I did look at the links, but it meant - and means - nothing to me. I don't know if there is a more technical board where you could have posted this, but generally if you don't get a response here it is because folks don't know and are content to let someone who does respond. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 13:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

::::Sorry Tombstone, didn't see the original ANI post. Anyway, as User:Pediapress hasn't edited since October, it is quite likely that they are unaware of all the shenanigans, so I have emailed their support to let them know about it. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 13:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Actually, the fact they hadn't edited since October was why I went to ANI instead of their talk page in the first place.  Anyway, Pediapress should be ''loving'' all of the free press I've generated for them and should send me a free gift — and take my templates off of their blacklist. Rgrds. --[[User:Tombstone|Tombstone]] ([[User talk:Tombstone|talk]]) 14:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

:Folks, I tagged the user page for speedy and reported the user name to [[WP:UAA]]. Maybe I was too hasty, but as the user page existed at the time, there was no indication (apart from the somewhat obscure reference to the Mediawiki Collection Extension) that this was in any way sanctioned by the Foundation. The user page is a lot clearer now. Sorry for creating this issue, but my motivation was sincere. Thanks. &nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 15:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

::Please be more careful with speedy deletion, which I think is one of the admin tools that can more harm if not handled properly.  Speedy deletion is meant for blatant advertising or other obvious, clear-cut cases.  Something like that user page and the script are better taken to [[WP:MFD]], allowing others to weigh in. --[[User:Aude|Aude]] <small>([[User talk:Aude|talk]])</small> 15:46, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
===Thought for the future===
Can we get a foundation employee or representative to make a project space page for collaborations?  Perhaps something like a protected list that includes the project or userpage name and purpose.  I don't want to create CREEP, but that would make it easier for those of us on NPP and username patrol to do our jobs.  Further, if there is an admin account which can create these pages it will automatically remove them from patrols.  We should [[WP:AGF|assume]] that a user like PediaPress is not lying, but we get enough fake "admin" "foundation" and "wikipedia" accounts that suspicion is rewarded.  Full disclosure might obviate that need for suspicion and would have the beneficial affect of advertising those collaborations at a unified page.  Thoughts? (Also, I'm aware AN isn't the place for this, but it seems natural). [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 20:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
:Yes, there are lots of vandals and hoaxers claiming to have special rights. There should be a protected page where any claims of any special right or special relationship with the Foundation can be verified. A claim is not a proof. [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 18:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::What if there were a specific username string that indicated such users? Blacklist the string so that it can't be created by just anyone (there is a way around the name blacklist for admins/crats/devs I think?), and Bob's your uncle. //[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#801818;font-size:80%;">'''roux'''</span>]] [[User talk:Roux|<span style="border:1px solid #801818;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">&nbsp;</span>]] 19:22, 13 January 2009 (UTC)</small>
:::Disagree with this suggestion. We're all editors, admins and above just have more "editing" tools. Differentiating would create a ''de facto'' class structure on Wikipedia, as compared to the informal/cabal structure that exists now. --[[User:Chasingsol|Chasingsol]][[User Talk:Chasingsol|<sup style="color:darkblue">(talk)</sup>]] 09:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
== Feedback on comment left on user talk page ==

I would like to receive feedback for a comment I left on a user talk page at [[User talk:Nathanael Bar-Aur L.#Edit warring]]. Was this appropriate? I would think that good intentions with reliable sources vigilantism do not justify continual edit warring, failure to use edit summaries, etc. [[User:Magog the Ogre|Magog the Ogre]] ([[User talk:Magog the Ogre|talk]]) 22:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:Is someone going to answer my question? [[User:Magog the Ogre|Magog the Ogre]] ([[User talk:Magog the Ogre|talk]]) 11:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
::Your post seems reasonable to me. [[User:Waggers|waggers]] ([[User talk:Waggers|talk]]) 11:21, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
== Redirection blocked ==

I'd like to create the redirection [[Лeв Давидович Трóцкий]] as a Russian name redirection to [[Leon Trotsky]], but apparently this particular one is in some sort of "blacklist"... The same happens with [[Леонід Данилович Кýчма]]. Could any admin. kindly unblock these?
Regards.
--[[User:Againme|Againme]] ([[User talk:Againme|talk]]) 09:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:Why would anyone be looking for a Russian name (written in Cyrillic) on English Wikipedia? <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sub>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sub></b> 09:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

::Would someone please look over this editor's contribs?  He or she has created numerous redirects in the Cyrillic alphabet.  Is that really proper for this project? <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sub>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sub></b> 09:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:::Hi! You don't have to speak about me in the third person, I'm here... Answer: It's not me who created the categories. We have even redirects from Japanese names in this project. I suposse if they are here they have to be used... Regards.--[[User:Againme|Againme]] ([[User talk:Againme|talk]]) 09:30, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:::Assuming those names are the correct Cyrillic (which I have no way of knowing) then it is entirely appropriate. We don't have articles in foreign languages, but there is nothing bad about making it easier for Russians to find an article about a Russian. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] ([[User talk:Dragons flight|talk]]) 09:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

::::Thanks Dragon. For Ed: here's the category: See [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Redirects_from_Russian_words/names]] --[[User:Againme|Againme]] ([[User talk:Againme|talk]]) 09:35, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::I see the category.  I disagree that it's appropriate to have these redirects here, nor would I expect Wikpedias in other languages to allow redirects from English.  They're also unnecessary, since using the Search box will bring up any instance of the Cyrillic words, as in the InterWiki listings or the transliterations at the top of many article about non-English subjects.  I don't plan on doing anything about it, but it seems like a waste of time, space and energy to me. <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sub>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sub></b> 10:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

::::::And if the redirect exists, using the search box takes you directly to the page.  [[:Category:Redirects from alternative languages|Redirect from alternative language]] is one of the [[Redirects_on_wikipedia#Alternative_names_and_languages|encouraged uses of redirects]].  Obviously, you don't have to work on them if you don't want to, but some people do find them useful.  [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] ([[User talk:Dragons flight|talk]]) 10:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:The blacklist rules it's matching are those for preventing mixed-script titles, specifically mixed Latin/Cyrillic. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] ([[User talk:Carnildo|talk]]) 10:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

::I did not understand you, Carnildo. Thanks for your answer anyway.--[[User:Againme|Againme]] ([[User talk:Againme|talk]]) 10:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:::The English Wikipedia has a set of rules that prevent people from creating articles with certain titles.  One of those rules prohibits titles that use letters from both the Cyrillic and Latin alphabets: since the letters look similar but computers represent them using different numbers, mixed-alphabet titles can be confusing.  The first title uses the Latin letter "e" rather than the Cyrillic [[Ye (Cyrillic)|Ye]].  I can't tell what letter in the second title is causing problems, but it's matching the same set of rules. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] ([[User talk:Carnildo|talk]]) 11:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

::::Thanks a lot, very clear now. --[[User:Againme|Againme]] ([[User talk:Againme|talk]]) 12:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
:Meh, I didn't see this section before fulfilling this request on [[WP:RFPP]]. Redirects are cheap anyway :) -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#00BBBB;">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
== [[Wikipedia:Notability]]'s protection ==

I noticed [[Wikipedia:Notability]] has been fully protected since 13 December 2008, because of the edit warring that was going on there. I didn't follow the story at all, but I guess 1 month is probably long enough for spirits to have settled down. I'd remove the protection but I think it is best to have a brain check before putting my hand in the hornet's nest. :) -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#BB33FF;">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
:Well, depends. What was it fully protected for, exactly? (Can't say I follow that sort of stuff much.) [[User:David Fuchs|<span style="color:#cc6600;">Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs</span>]]<sup> <nowiki>(</nowiki><small>[[User talk:David Fuchs|<span style="color:#993300;">talk</span>]]</small><nowiki>)</nowiki></sup> 19:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
::A [[Wikipedia_talk:Notability/Archive_30#Article_contents|link]] for you, Mr. Fuchs.  I think it's safe to unprotect now.  [[User:Keegan|<font color="maroon">Keegan</font>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Keegan|<font color="gray">talk</font>]]</small></sup> 21:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
== Howcheng and spamming on user pages ==

I recently had a message added to my user page by [[User:Howcheng|Howcheng]] here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tb&diff=263082701&oldid=262922461]. The point of the message was to invite me to a museum event near me.  I certainly don't object to the event, or to the purposes it was organized for.  But I do object to the manner in which it is being advertized.  The idea apparently is to add, with an automated tool, messages to a large number of pages (about four hundred, I think).  The message itself contains an "apology", an indication that the poster had an intimation that it was inappropriate.  When I asked him about it here [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Howcheng&diff=263129284&oldid=263104031] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Howcheng&diff=263682724&oldid=263677929], he replied [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Howcheng&diff=263737031&oldid=263682724], essentially saying that he did nothing wrong.  I object because I do not want wikipedia to become another source of spam, another engine for generating unsolicited messages.  The event is, in one sense, wikipedia-connected, but in another sense, it's an off-wiki event.  There is already the notices that appear at the top of my watchlist, which would be the place for such broad community announcements.  If it's not appropriate for that, then I submit it's not appropriate elsewhere either, and certainly not by an automated tool.  But I'm uncertain: it's not crystal clear this violates policy, and I would like to find out how best to explore the question.  I do think it is crucial that we not come to the conclusion that users are free to post automated messages to hundreds of user pages, to advertize off-wiki things.  I don't think it matters much at all whether it's commercial or not; the annoyance factor is the same.  What is the best way to explore this?  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 18:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
*An invitation to a Wikipedia event to Wikipedians who're likely to be local is an appropriate talk page message. There's no need for administrative action here. [[User:WilyD|Wily]][[User talk:WilyD|<span style="color:#FF8800;">D</span>]] 18:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::No need for administrative action here, invitations to Wikipedia-related events are pretty commonplace on talk pages. <font face="Trebuchet MS"><b>&mdash; [[User:Neurolysis|<font color="#5A3696">neuro</font>]]</b><sup><i>[[User talk:Neurolysis|<font color="#5A3696">(talk)</font>]]</i></sup></font> 18:55, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
:"''You are receiving this message because you have indicated that you are in Southern California or interested in Southern California topics''" I would have thought that such "invitations" would be more appropriately posted to project message boards or community noticeboards, rather than individual users' Talk pages. But that is just my opinion.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 21:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
::We've tended in the past to find that that aproach doesn't work too well.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 04:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
:::What do you mean by "doesn't work too well"?  Do you mean that it is less effective at getting people to do what you want them to do, or do you mean that it is less effective at improving the encyclopedia, or do you mean that it is less effective at annoying them?  It is not reasonable to say that people are entitled to do whatever they want to be most effective in reaching their goals.  For example, adding ads to random pages in the encyclopedia might be '''even more effective''' but so what?  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 04:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Less effective when it comes to alerting people. People tend not to read local noticeboard and project pages much.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 13:38, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::I think you're missing my point.  There is no right to choose whatever method is most effective at reaching people. It would be really effective to put notices at the top of hundreds of articles: many more people would notice. But it's obviously not allowed.  I think this shouldn't be allowed either.  The whole reason it's more noticeable is that it's '''more intrusive''' and that's the very problem. Notice-givers don't have some kind of right to claim just whatever level of attention they want.  Do you not see that user talk pages could easily become one more spam-laden piece of garbage, if we decide that giving any notices, to hundreds of pages by automated tools, is ok?  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 19:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Look at some of the previous uses of [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]]. Mass commenting on talk pages has been around for years and hasn't given us a significant spam problem yet.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 00:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:You could try placing a "No spam" type of message on your user talk page in future, if you do not wish to receive anything more. It was Wikipedia-related, which although I don't particularly approve of even that, was meant in good faith and not just a pure spamfest that had no relation to Wikipedia. --'''[[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">.:</span>]][[User:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Alex</span>]][[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">:.</span>]]''' 21:24, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
== Amy Fisher ==

Could someone at their leisure confirm that [[User:Amy Fisher]] is [[Amy Fisher]] (to avoid any sort of user name vandalism) and then sort out the editwar/COI problems? Kid gloves on please.--[[User:Tznkai|Tznkai]] ([[User talk:Tznkai|talk]]) 06:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Confirmed at OTRS. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 06:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
== Open letter from [[User:FT2|FT2]] ==

See [[User talk:Jimbo Wales#Open letter from FT2]]. 

Can someone do the necessaries. Thanks :) [[user:FT2|FT2]]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">([[User_talk:FT2|Talk]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/FT2|email]])</span></sup> 08:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

:If by "necessaries" you mean summarizing (no offense, but [[tldr|not everyone wants to read the whole thing!]]), FT2 has stepped down from ArbCom until a way is found to provide a fair hearing. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 08:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::I'm assuming that the clerks need to do a whole bunch of stuff (updating the ArbCom list, votes, etc.) I suppose that they'll do it soon enough (has anybody been doing anything else besides watch this case?) --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]]''' ([[User talk:Rschen7754|T]] [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|C]]) 08:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::: Yes, Rschen's got it -- clerk work. Which I guess has all been done now anyway. [[user:FT2|FT2]]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">([[User_talk:FT2|Talk]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/FT2|email]])</span></sup> 16:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

== Need help to move a page ==

As detailed in [[talk:Split (city)]], the page was renamed from Split → Split (city). This was done to enable Split (disambiguation) to be renamed Split, as there is no primary topic for Split. I renamed Split but was unable to rename the dab as Split because it already exists. Would an admin kindly delete Split and then rename Split (disambiguation) → Split? Thanks! [[User:Lambtron|Lambtron]] ([[User talk:Lambtron|talk]]) 16:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Why not just edit [[Split (disambiguation)]] to be a redirect to [[Split]]? [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 16:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

That would also require [[Split (disambiguation)]] to be manually copied over the contents of [[Split]], thus resulting in a loss of history of the dab. [[User:Lambtron|Lambtron]] ([[User talk:Lambtron|talk]]) 16:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

:Fair point! [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 16:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:''The title of a disambiguation page is the ambiguous term itself, provided there is no primary topic for that term''. Doing it. -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#66BB00;">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

::(ec)::Are you suggesting a copy and paste move? We need the page histories associated with the actual article if at all possible. A simple admin move would do the trick. That said, [[WP:RM]] is two doors down, and they have a section for non-controversial moves (I also believe there is a {{tl|db}} template for such deletes as well.-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew&nbsp;c]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 16:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::{{done}} I moved the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Split&action=history history], no worries ;) -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#0099FF;">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
== Temporary injunction in [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking]] ==

The following temporary injunction has been passed in [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking]];

''Until this case is decided or otherwise directed by the Arbitration Committee, all editors are instructed not to engage in any program of mass linking or delinking of dates in existing articles, including but not limited to through the use of bots, scripts, tools, or otherwise. This injunction is entered as an interim measure and does not reflect any prejudgment of any aspect of the case.''

For the Arbitration Committee, '''[[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|<span style="color:green;">Ryan</span> <span style="color:purple;">Postlethwaite</span>]]<sup>See [[Special:Contributions/Ryan Postlethwaite|the mess I've created]] or [[User talk:Ryan Postlethwaite|let's have banter]]</sup>''' 11:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

:Ryan, can this be added as a watchlist message? I would not have known about it if I had not seen it here. Thanks.&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 14:36, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
::It's probably a bit too long and does not concern enough people to have it there. Mass editing should be done using an approved bot, so I guess the operators may<sup>{{tl|sofixit}}</sup> be contacted individually. -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#009900;">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:::Not necessarily done by a bot - I have been delinking dates manually and would have carried on had I not just happened across Ryan's message in passing.&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 16:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

::A watchlist notice seems a bit excessive. A simple note to anyone who continues to do script-assisted linking / de-linking should be fine. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 17:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

== Odd image ==

The image at [[:File:Split.jpg]] does not appear to be the image referred to in the description. What has happened and how to fix it please? [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 16:58, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Someone uploaded a new image over the old one, I've reverted it to the correct version. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 17:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Yeah three people "fixed" it at the same time.  This messed me up majorly while trying to revert to the good version.  I then realized it is an exact duplicate of a Commons file, so it is deleted and the Commons version is now showing.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;">[[User:Gonzo_fan2007|<span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span>]] ''[[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007#top|<span style="color:#191970;">(talk)</span>]] @ ''</span> 17:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Ok, thanks! [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 17:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
== Aurora Publishing using Wiki to promote itself ==

[[Aurora Publishing]] has some serious sock puppetry and/or meat puppetry going on here to spam Wikipedia with their catalog and self-promotional stuff. The anime and manga project has been trying to police the articles since being alerted to the issue, but the socks continue appearing. The [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Fujoshi sisters|SSP]] report has sat unresponded to since the 9th because of the backlog and transition going on. It would really be helpful if an admin could review it and deal with them. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 05:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
* If there is an active WikiProject then I suggest that you work together to identify what of the spammed content is significant, and then AfD the balance.  I'll be happy to help supervise the AfD for sockpuppetry etc. if necessary. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 17:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::We've been doing that, with Prods and AfDs. The problem is the socks keep returning and making more articles, and particularly trying to spam those that remain with a lot of promo material, along with the main Aurora article. Attempts at dialog have been met with them pretending to just be fans (despite clear evidence in their editing history showing otherwise), such as the first account saying they were just a fan, until articles were tagged for CSD for copyvio, then they admitted being with Aurora and having written all the stolen summaries. It seems like they are copy/pasting press releases and the like into various articles, as we're finding copyvio plot summaries, statements, etc all over the place. We're cleaning those that are notable, and sending the rest for deletion, but still would be good if we weren't having to first undo their frequent respamming over and over again. -- [[User:AnmaFinotera|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>AnmaFinotera</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:AnmaFinotera|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/AnmaFinotera|contribs]]) 17:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::: Blocked the sock drawer.  Anyone is free to unblock if they think the risk of further inappropriate promotion is removed, but right now there is no evidence that these people even see that what they are doing is wrong. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 18:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
== [[White Brazilian]] ==

User [[User:Donadio|Donadio]] created an edit-warring in the article [[White Brazilian]]. He removed several informations from that article, before making any discussion in the talk page. He also included several unsourced informations there. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:White_Brazilian He flooded the talk page] of this article with unnecessary comments. He seems to be using his personal opinions to make changes in the article. I told him that to remove informations and include unsourced posts are not allowed in Wikipedia, but he ignored me. 

Can some administrator do something about it. Thanks. [[User:Opinoso|Opinoso]] ([[User talk:Opinoso|talk]]) 19:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
== [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard]] ==

Please note that the Arbitration Committee have announced that they have established a new central noticeboard, which will serve as a forum for arbitration-related announcements, notices, and other discussion. Please see [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard]] for more details.

''For the Arbitration Committee'', '''[[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|<span style="color:green;">Ryan</span> <span style="color:purple;">Postlethwaite</span>]]<sup>See [[Special:Contributions/Ryan Postlethwaite|the mess I've created]] or [[User talk:Ryan Postlethwaite|let's have banter]]</sup>''' 12:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
:MOAR NOTICEBRDZ PLS. [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 21:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
:: Surely there can be no need for a noticeboard? ArbCom is so ''dull'', nothing exciting ever happens around them. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 19:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks for the heads-up. I have updated the [[User:SheffieldSteel/NBNB|Noticeboard Noticeboard]] accordingly.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 20:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

== Talk page deletion ==

A bot has deleted the talk page of [[User:AlexLevyOne]] as an "old temporary userpage." It seems to me wise to keep the talk page of a multiple-block-evading sockmaster like this around, since it may (I don't really recall) contain evidence of why he was indef blocked in the first place. Is such a deletion standard operating procedure? [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 03:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:The talk pages of blocked socks are not supposed to be deleted. I've restored this one and removed the temporary category from the talk page. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 04:22, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Quite a few of these have popped up on my talkpage recently, usually with an editsum along the lines of "Talk/userpage of an indefblocked/banned user." I had assumed there was a good reason for it... perhaps I was wrong? //[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#4B0082;font-size:80%;">'''roux'''</span>]] [[User talk:Roux|<span style="border:1px solid #4B0082;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">&nbsp;</span>]] 04:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)</small>
:::Before this turns into a big discussion, I'd just like to interject my thanks to AuburnPilot for the action and the explanation. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 04:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Anytime. ;-) - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 04:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Well, I was a bit surprised to see this bot pop up, as I know I've seen the automation of this task shot down before (for the very concern that sock talk pages would be deleted incorrectly). Otherwise, the talk pages of indefinitely blocked users can be deleted; see [[:Category:Temporary_Wikipedian_userpages]]. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 04:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Ah, yes. [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/TempDeletionBot]]. Interesting. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 04:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
It only checks the page its deleting, I'm not quite sure why it would check anything else :) The pages are supposed to be kept if needed for tracking purposes, the template on the userpage serves this purpose. If you want I can have it check both, but I'm not sure I see the purpose, the talk page was a bunch of template warnings, most about article deletion. (part of the reason they're deleted is to get rid of such useless pages). <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 04:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:The current version of the talk page may be just a bunch of warnings, but try the history tab. User talk pages of socks are frequently full of information that can help track and confirm connections between accounts. I think the better question is how this task was approved, when it was so clearly rejected at the RfA I linked above. The bots may have different names and operators, but the task is no different. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 04:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:(e/c)And to respond to a few more points:
:"It seems to me wise to keep the talk page of a multiple-block-evading sockmaster like this around, since it may (I don't really recall) contain evidence of why he was indef blocked in the first place."
::The evidence is exactly where it should be, in the block log, SSP reports, and the sock template.
:"Is such a deletion standard operating procedure?"
::Yes, people have been doing it for years.
:"I've seen the automation of this task shot down before"
::And since no one is actually willing to manually go through (what's at some times tens of) thousands of pages of pure crap to find ''maybe'' a couple pages that have information that ''might'' be useful (though not likely) in the future, people just end up doing with unapproved bots. In any case, the linked RFA was from more than a year ago, opinions regarding adminbots have changed significantly in the meantime. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 04:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::You're missing the point. I have no doubt the opinion on admin bots has changed quite a bit, but I very much doubt that opinion on this task has. This should not be done blindly through the use of a bot. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 04:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Are you volunteering? As I said, there is currently, and there has not been since the decline of the last bot, anyone willing to do this manually. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 05:04, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
*[[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/CAT:TEMP deletion bot]]. Seems like approval to me. And since its linked to further up this page, I think that if people objected, they would have commented--[[User:Jac16888|<font color="Blue">Jac</font><font color="Green">16888</font>]][[User talk:Jac16888|<sup><font color="red">Talk</font></sup>]] 05:02, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

[http://code.google.com/p/python-wikitools/source/detail?r=90] - Talk pages where the corresponding userpage has a sock template will be removed from the category starting on the next run. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 05:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Makes me happy. I'm still very disappointed in the way this very rejected task was slipped through the back door, with half a dozen editors supporting (compared to the 30+ that rejected it). Very poor form. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 05:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Eh? You willing to help with clearing the backlog? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 05:19, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::[[Ignoratio elenchi|Red herring]]? --[[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 05:23, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Note: I don't really care much if adminbots are run to make non-controversial deletions, but saying a person needs to be willing to clear the backlog themselves in order to complain is a non-argument. --[[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 05:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Nonsense. Be willing to help or stop complaining. And "willing to help" isn't necessarily clearing a backlog, it can be commenting on bot requests or talking with bot ops about how to improve their code. But sitting around on a noticeboard and kvetching helps nothing. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 05:28, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::You mean like commenting on the original discussion? Or you mean the second one? Because the first discussion, where the task was rejected, had the input of 70+ people. The second one had only half a dozen. I didn't realize the bot approval group had the authority to override community decisions, but clearly I need to start watching it more closely. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 05:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Yes, if you're interested in bot discussions, you should participate in them. And they're at the same place every time. I think there's even a pretty chart somewhere that lists all open requests. It may even include colors. And, things change, a fact that you seem to try to be ignoring. In the last year, attitudes toward adminbots have shifted ''significantly'', as others have pointed out in this thread. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 05:48, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Quite frankly, MZMcBride, you can take your condescending attitude and shove it. I'm not ignoring anything, and so long as sock pages are not deleted, I don't have a problem with this task. The only thing that's being ignored is the fact (yes, fact) that this task was rejected. A year later, it was swept through a back door without even a mention of the previous discussion. Fine. That's fairly typical for the general MO of the bot approvals. And looking at Mr.Z-man's talk page, it seems I'm not the only one who has noticed his bot incorrectly deleting user talk pages of sockpuppets. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 14:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Stay classy, Auburn. Stay classy. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 17:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Okay, the way I see it, there's basically 4 options here:
:::#Someone or some people go through these pages manually. Its been more than 14 months since the last bot was denied, that's 17% of the history of Wikipedia, and not one person has volunteered to do this. This is not a ''realistic'' option. We cannot always do what's perfectly ideal, at some point we have to look at what's actually practical and make a compromise.
:::#We continue with the old status quo. That is, people clear the category with random, closed-source, unapproved adminbots on a semi-regular basis using unknown deletion criteria.
:::#We use my approved, open-source adminbot with publicly stated criteria, open to any reasonable, realistic suggestion.
:::#We don't delete any of these such pages, which as with [[WP:OLDIP|old IP talk pages]] can have demonstrable negative side effects on things like statistics and maintenance.
:::I would also add, complaints != incorrect. [[User talk:WitchieAnna]] for example has no relevant information either currently on the page or in the history. They were the sock of a user who created 1 sockpuppet (WitchieAnna) ''3 months ago'' and have done nothing since. The sock made <20 edits outside its own userspace. Why does that need to be kept around for all eternity? All the information is exactly where it should be, in the archives of RFCU and SSP, and the block log; not scattered around a bunch of random talk page histories. Why do we even keep the SSP archives if we would rather use user talk history? <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 20:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

== Something Important for one of the pages ==

I have never posted anything here. Don't understand "level 2 - level 2" or how to get a link "hot" in what I am trying to contribute...anyway, here it is if someone who knows your SOP's can get it on the appropriate page:
McClatchy news today has a story, "Economists:  Banks that survive need tougher rules",  @ mcclatchydc.com/251/v-print/story/59763.html.
I came here to look up "Group of 30" referenced in the piece.  They have come out with an important new report, and your entry for them does not reflect it.  The article has a link to the 90-some page PDF report called:
"Financial Reform:  A Framework for Financial Stability"

I hope the above is clear,  kudos to all who are able to add current data to the site.  I felt this was important in our current 'climate.'    Jonz33
== FT2 steps down from ArbCom ==

ArbCom has issued a statement on FT2's departure, which may be found [[WP:AC/N#FT2 steps down from ArbCom|'''here''']].

For the Committee, --[[User:Roger Davies|<font color="maroon">'''R<small>OGER</small>&nbsp;D<small>AVIES</small>'''</font>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 21:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
== Violation of WP:NPA by an ADMINISTRATOR! ==

{{resolved|1=This thread has run its course. Further disruption, canvassing or edit warring will result in a block. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 20:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)}}
{{discussion top}}
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_World_Wrestling_Entertainment_employees&curid=2338073&diff=264317628&oldid=264314316] There, [[User:Elkman]], and admin, warn him please but I think he knew what he was doing ''and'' the consecuences. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 20:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
: I reverted it a few seconds later.  --[[User:Elkman|Elkman]] <sup>[[User talk:Elkman|(Elkspeak)]]</sup> 20:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:: Oh screw it.  I'm just going for the block.  --[[User:Elkman|Elkman]] <sup>[[User talk:Elkman|(Elkspeak)]]</sup> 20:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Calm please. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 20:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::(ec)Kalajan, let's let some people independent of the issue evaluate what's going on before anything is decided, okay? '''<span style="border: 2px black solid;background:yellow;font-family:futana;">&nbsp;[[User:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Hazardous </font>]] [[User talk:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Matt</font>]]&nbsp;</span>''' 20:34, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Elkman - please give time for review - that edit was not becoming, whatever the provocation - don't use the tools in this situation without other input - please. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 20:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::While Elkman needs a stern waring, and to be honest I am beginning to question his ability as a administrator I have undo the block he placed upon himself. [[User:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#4E562C;font-weight:bold">Tiptoety</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#FFDB58">talk</span>]]</sup> 20:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Apologies - I assumed Elkman was talking about blocking another editor. Nevertheless blocking himself was a silly idea and Tiptoey was right to remove the block. Again, I ask for calm. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 20:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Please note Kalajan is canvassing this discussion: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kaizer13&diff=prev&oldid=264319798] --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 20:45, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to point out [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_World_Wrestling_Entertainment_employees&diff=prev&oldid=264272239 this diff] where the editor raising the claim against Elkman states that they have had "issues" in the past. '''<span style="border: 2px black solid;background:yellow;font-family:futana;">&nbsp;[[User:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Hazardous </font>]] [[User talk:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Matt</font>]]&nbsp;</span>''' 20:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::This unacceptable. And this is what I hate about some admins. They think that since they are admins, they can do anything. They are not civil. They violate every rule in the book. I'm not even shocked at him violating WP:NPA. Maybe he is angry. Then go and curse yourself out on Notepad. No need to do it on the wiki. There are only a few good admins, like tiptoety, who knows who to act like a civil human being. I also question his ability as an admin. '''''[[User:SimonKSK|<font color="black">₰<small>imon</small></font>]]<sup>[[User talk:SimonKSK|<font color="OrangeRed">K</font><font color="DarkCyan">S</font><font color="ForestGreen">K</font>]]</sup>''''' 20:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I also think Elkman's comment was over the line, but I'm not familiar enough with his past behavior to add anything else. '''<span style="border: 2px black solid;background:yellow;font-family:futana;">&nbsp;[[User:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Hazardous </font>]] [[User talk:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Matt</font>]]&nbsp;</span>''' 20:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I would have to agree this behaviour is unacceptable. From both parties<strong>[[User:BigDunc|<span style="font-family:Ariel Black;color:Green">BigDunc</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:BigDunc|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Orange">Talk</span></sup>]] 20:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:He blocked himself? Where's the point in that, that's mental!? Nothing rude in my last comment by the way. But I don't know what canvassing is, could someone explain it to me? [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 20:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:And don't even get me started on Kalajan. Again, violating every rule in the book. Canvassing, personal attacks, edit warring, and uncivilty. And then the most ironic part: He tells us to respect WPP:CIVIL on the top on his talk page. And while I have nothing against him. This is getting out of hand. '''''[[User:SimonKSK|<font color="black">₰<small>imon</small></font>]]<sup>[[User talk:SimonKSK|<font color="OrangeRed">K</font><font color="DarkCyan">S</font><font color="ForestGreen">K</font>]]</sup>''''' 20:51, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::He immediatley reverted himself and said it was not a good idea.  He did not abuse the tools or anything like that.  If he had blocked you as or even threaened to block you that would have been much worse.  While not a good idea, i dont see any reason to come running to AN.[[User:Chrislk02|<font color="1E90FF">'''Chris'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Chrislk02|<font color="4169E1">'''lk02'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Chrislk02|<font color="2A52BE">Chris Kreider</font>]]</sup> 20:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators_noticeboard#Kalajan.27s_edits] There I have my answer Simon. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 20:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Oh, so that means I can go to someone's talk page and say ****** and get away with it. Specially being an admin! [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 20:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Your account is dangerous tilting to becoming [[WP:DE|disruptive]]. Not only are you [[WP:CANVASS|canvassing]], but you are or have engaged in [[WP:EW|edit warring]]. As I suggested earlier, back off and stop replying, or you'll be the next in line for a block. This thread is being archived. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 20:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
{{discussion bottom}}
::Yes sir, I'm very sorry sir, I'll stay out yes, just please don't do anything to me. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 21:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

FYI, I [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steward_requests/Permissions&diff=1344826&oldid=1344825 have requested a removal of my admin privileges] for this incident and many others.  Clearly, I no longer have the temperament necessary to be an admin.  I may not even have the temperament necessary to be a Wikipedia editor, for that matter.  --[[User:Elkman|Elkman]] <sup>[[User talk:Elkman|(Elkspeak)]]</sup> 02:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:Go take a break Elkman.  It's bloody 20 below zero where you live, you aren't thinking rationally.  [[User:Keeper76|<font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper</font>]] | [[User talk:Keeper76|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76</font>]] 03:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
== Can Haz Copyvio Help, Plz? ==

{{resolved|Another editor has removed the copyvio text from the article. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 05:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC) }}

This doesn't need an administrator, per se, just someone who's skilled at being non-BITE-y (I wasn't sure where such a request should go)).  [[User:Ccumcac]] recently edited [[Cass Avenue Methodist Episcopal Church]], dropping in a massive copyvio of [http://casscommunity.org/about_cass/history_of_cass_community_social_services this page].  I assume from the username that this person is directly involved with the church, and the edits are good faith, so a good explanation of policy would be best, and I wasn't quite sure how to go about that.  (As an aside, I'm not keen on rewriting the material, because I think a lot of it is unnecessary, and if ''I'' rewrote it, I'd just delete stuff until it turns into the article I origianlly wrote, and now it looks like I'm owning the article.)  Anyone? [[User:Andrew Jameson|Andrew Jameson]] ([[User talk:Andrew Jameson|talk]]) 17:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

== When... ==

{{discussion top}}
{{archive top}}
...did unilaterally archiving a thread become acceptable practice as a method of forceably shutting down any further opinions/responses? Not that I ''really'' care, but it's becoming more common. [[User:Tanthalas39|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">'''Tan'''</font>]]  &#124;  [[User talk:Tanthalas39|<font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39</font>]] 21:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}
:That is evil...--[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 21:04, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Hey, you steal a man's signature, there's consequences.  My bad. [[User:Keeper76|<font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper</font>]] | [[User talk:Keeper76|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76</font>]] 21:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Sometimes you gotta bury the horse to stop people from [[WP:DEADHORSE|continuing to beat it]], especially with threads that are short (and could be construed as frivolous).  In other words, too many people care about the color of the [[Bike shed]] ([[Parkinson's Law of Triviality]]) and that really bogs constructive work on this project down. [[User:Chrislk02|<font color="1E90FF">'''Chris'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Chrislk02|<font color="4169E1">'''lk02'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Chrislk02|<font color="2A52BE">Chris Kreider</font>]]</sup> 21:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I think that (see 2 sections above) archiving threads is '''should not''' be done until the consensus is reached. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 21:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::This isn't a straw poll, Kalajan. Despite my thread here, I agree with Seicer that you need to go do something else. [[User:Tanthalas39|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">'''Tan'''</font>]]  &#124;  [[User talk:Tanthalas39|<font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39</font>]] 21:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::I believe the two threads were blocked to keep you from digging yourself further into a hole. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 21:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::I'm guessing the median age of the users involved in the content dispute here is around 12. Maturity-wise, anyway. In a way, I'm sort of impressed with how long Elkman was able to restrain himself.  [[User:Keeper76|<font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper</font>]] | [[User talk:Keeper76|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76</font>]] 21:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Ditto. <font face="cursive">'''[[User:IMatthew|<span style="color:#007BA7">iMatthew</span>]] // [[User talk:IMatthew|<span style="color:#960018">talk</span>]]''' // </span></font> 21:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I guess Kalajan has yet to read the sign about [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Seicer&diff=prev&oldid=264325541 feeding the bears]...--[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 21:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Okay anyway, carry on with your discussion that '''isn't''' about me, bye, tally ho. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 21:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
{{discussion bottom}}
== [[ User:Cali567]] ==

{{notdone}}{{small|See [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Cali567.C2.A0.28talk.C2.A0.C2.B7_contribs.29|ANI]]. No need for multiple discussions.-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew&nbsp;c]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 16:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)}}

I previously requested the protection of Demographics of Argentina nonetheless it was declined and the administrator claimed that this user should be report to block. 
[[User:Cali567|Cali567]] created an edit-warring in [[Argentina]], [[Demographics of Argentina]], [[White Argentine]] and [[Argentine American]]. Even though a consensus was previously reached user cali567 continues to make disruptive edits. This user was warned several times always for the same reason.

--[[User:Fercho85|Fercho85]] ([[User talk:Fercho85|talk]]) 06:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
== Requesting a school block? ==

I have already posted a [[User_talk:209.174.247.164#For_a_passing_admin|request for intervention]] regarding this, but it's been two months and yet, nothing's happened.

[[User_talk:209.174.247.164|This]] IP address is the new IP address for the East Richland school district, formerly [[User_talk:207.63.238.4|this]] IP address. When this changeover was done, the former IP had a six-month edit block.

I've spoken with the technical coordinator for the district, and we would like to have this IP blocked indefinitely due to the abusive edits made by students. We feel that, if they wish to edit Wikipedia, they can and should create their own accounts that allow for accountability of their actions. - [[User:Malykyn|Malykyn]] ([[User talk:Malykyn|talk]]) 17:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:We do not usually block institutional IPs on request (it's their job to enforce their internet usage policies, not ours), nor do we block IPs indefinitely. See [[WP:BP]]. {{user|209.174.247.164}} is indeed the originator of schoolboy-type vandalism, but not to a degree, I think, that a lengthy {{tl|schoolblock}} would be required at this point. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 18:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
::I learned via a discussion on unblock-en-l that we do occasionally issue these blocks, however the proper method would be to email unblock-enwiki@wikimedia.org with the request. –<span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">'''xeno'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">talk</span>]])</span> 18:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Six month schoolblock issued. Don't see the need for a ''bureaucratic run-around'', unblock if you disagree. [[User:Vsmith|Vsmith]] ([[User talk:Vsmith|talk]]) 18:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
== False "orphaned image" alerts ==

I frequently upload fair-use images to use in articles' infoboxes, but for some reason, I still get "orphaned fair-use" alerts often.  Yet when I click the images, it says "No pages on the Wikipedia use this image...Yet when I click the article, and the image in the infobox, I find it's the exact image page!

Probably a database issue...Could you guys help me please? Thanks, [[User:Tom Danson|Tom Danson]] ([[User talk:Tom Danson|talk]]) 19:21, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
:See the notice at the top of [[User talk:BJBot]]. [[User:Bjweeks|BJ]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Bjweeks|Talk]]</sup></small> 21:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:I've seen images get removed by vandalism, then the bot sees them as orphans and reports as such, and the images get restored. Could that be happening here? [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 06:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::I'd guess more along the lines that the bot is using a cached version of the page, and a purge would be required on its part to avoid this (no idea whether or not this is a good idea, though).  If the images are in fact used, feel free to just ignore the notices and remove them from your talk page.  Cheers.  [[User:Lifebaka|<i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>]][[User talk:Lifebaka|'''++''']] 21:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

== "Failed to parse... math output directory" ==

The error: 
:''Failed to parse (Cannot write to or create math output directory)''

appears on this page: [[Chaum_mixes]]

When I logged in, the message was replaced with the proper math notation, but the error reappeared when logging back out. It may be an intermittent problem in MediaWiki that you need to be logged out to see, for some strange reason. 

[[User:Shouran|Shouran]] ([[User talk:Shouran|talk]]) 00:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:I told the server to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chaum_mixes&action=purge take a hike] and it did just that. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] ([[User talk:Hbdragon88|talk]]) 02:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

::I have seen this intermittent problem a few times recently. Only seems to happen when you are not logged in, only at certain times, and then only on certain pages. Was happening on [[Stable module category]] earlier today, but seems to be fixed for now. [[User:Gandalf61|Gandalf61]] ([[User talk:Gandalf61|talk]]) 12:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:::When you are not logged in, you don't always see the current version but a cached version (sometimes a few hours old). If there was a problem when the page was cached, it might stick around until the page is purged. -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#0066FF;">talk</span>]]</sup> 14:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:In the "my preferences" link at the top of the page there's a tab for changing how math displays.  Likely, it's related to the difference between the default configuration (which you'd have as an IP) and whichever you use when logged in.  I don't know off the top of my head what the default is, but I'll bet that whatever it is isn't compatible with your browser.  I'd ask over at [[WP:VPT]], where someone oughta' know.  Cheers.  [[User:Lifebaka|<i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>]][[User talk:Lifebaka|'''++''']] 21:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
== 4chan mass vandalism ==

I just wanted to let the administrators know that some users on the website 4chan are planning mass vandalism because they are mad that their site article was the featured article on wikipedia. My usertalk was vandalized by them and I didn't know what 4chan was so I looked it up and saw their plans on the site. [[User:Mygerardromance|Mygerardromance]] ([[User talk:Mygerardromance|talk]]) 19:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
:See the above threads. It's under control, don't worry about it. [[User:David Fuchs|<span style="color:#cc6600;">Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs</span>]]<sup> <nowiki>(</nowiki><small>[[User talk:David Fuchs|<span style="color:#993300;">talk</span>]]</small><nowiki>)</nowiki></sup> 19:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
::Which threads are you referring to? I cant really see any thats relating to this issue. I may be blind though. --[[User:Saddhiyama|Saddhiyama]] ([[User talk:Saddhiyama|talk]]) 17:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::/b/ moves so fast that any post referring to a /b/ thread is outdated within an hour, Saddi.  Just because there isn't one now doesn't mean that there was before. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|Couriano]]''</font> <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|v^_^v]])</sup></font> 23:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/G.-M. Cupertino#Final decision|Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/G.-M. Cupertino]] ==

The "G.-M. Cupertino" arbitration case has been closed, and the final decision is available at the link above.

G.-M. Cupertino is [[Wikipedia:Banning policy|banned from Wikipedia]] for a period of one year. Should he return to editing following his ban, he is limited indefinitely to using one account to edit. He is to inform the Committee of the account he has selected, and must obtain the Committee's approval if he wishes to begin using a different account.

''On behalf of the Arbitration Committee'',<br>
[[User:Mailer diablo|Mailer Diablo]] 23:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
== Proposing a community ban on {{u|Ecoleetage}} ==

{{archive top}}
{{resolved|He's banned as in no admin will unblock him for this. Let's leave SDJ his privacy per his request on ANI [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] ([[User talk:SirFozzie|talk]]) 03:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)}}

Trust can take years to gain, yet just seconds to lose. This is what happened to one of our editors, Ecoleetage.

Eco has recently engaged in real-life stalking of User who's signature is SDJ, who happens to be a teacher. Earlier today, Dean's employer received a complaint from Eco that Dean was abusing his job by playing computer games when he should be teaching. Not only that, but Eco was doing this because Dean opposed [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Ecoleetage 3|his recent RfA]]. Adds up to Eco threatening Dean's livelihood just because he opposed him. And now Eco uses a sockpuppet, {{vandal-s|Eco2}}, to complain about Dean's [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Real life stalking by Ecoleetage|post at ANI]]. Unbelievable.

This is the worst breach of trust I have ever seen from such a respectful editor, and there has been emerging support for a community ban on Eco. We just banned Betacommand for less than this; it's time to throw the ball over to Eco's court. --<font face="verdana">[[User:Dylan620|<font color="red">Dylan</font>]][[User talk:Dylan620|<font color="purple">620</font>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Dylan620|<font color="blue">Contribs</font>]])</font> 03:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Dylan, speedily archiving this, Ecoleetage is as banned as anyone could be, as no admin will unblock him after this thread. Let's leave the person he harassed out of this, we don't need anything else pointing at him, per his request. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] ([[User talk:SirFozzie|talk]]) 03:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}
== Anyone out there ==

{{resolved|both pages semi-protected}}

If so could you take a look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Ibaranoff24 this]? Then have a look at [[Mudvayne]] and [[Hed PE]]? There are requests at RFPP but this is getting out of hand. [[User:Landon1980|Landon1980]] ([[User talk:Landon1980|talk]]) 08:21, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Landon has repeatedly removed sourced information and accuses everyone who doesn't agree with his opinion of being a sock.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/65.2.200.221|65.2.200.221]] ([[User talk:65.2.200.221|talk]]) 08:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:All of the edits made to these articles tonight are from the same user, as per the duck test. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 08:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::Dayewalker has also been making spurious accusations.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/65.2.200.221|65.2.200.221]] ([[User talk:65.2.200.221|talk]]) 09:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== Privacy problem: posting of IP address in 'recommended message' ==

In a [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive180#Privacy_problem:_posting_of_IP_address_that_were_previously_concealed|recent discussion here]], User:Od Mishehu said that autoblock message now doesn't reveal the IP but "in other blocks the recommended message does". Does anybody know which recommended messages User:Od Mishehu was referring to? [[User:Lightmouse|Lightmouse]] ([[User talk:Lightmouse|talk]]) 23:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
*I would recommend asking this at the village pump/technical thread.  People there might know about the various mediawiki messages/tools that might do this. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 02:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for the suggestion. [[User:Lightmouse|Lightmouse]] ([[User talk:Lightmouse|talk]]) 13:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:As suggested, I [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Privacy_problem:_posting_of_IP_address_in_.27recommended_messages.27|posted at wp:vpt]] and the response was ''"WP:AN? Almost everyone there is an administrator and can go to Special:Block and look around..."''. I am not an admin, can an admin please do that please? [[User:Lightmouse|Lightmouse]] ([[User talk:Lightmouse|talk]]) 17:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)


User:Locke Cole said ''"You can see a list of all MediaWiki messages (and their values, default and current) here: [[Special:AllMessages]] ('''warning''': large page)."'' It is a bit complicated for me. Is there anybody out there that can investigate based on the comment by User:Od Mishehu? [[User:Lightmouse|Lightmouse]] ([[User talk:Lightmouse|talk]]) 18:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:You could take a look at [[MediaWiki:Autoblockedtext]], which still invites the user to supply an IP address as part of his request for lifting the autoblock. Some thoughts:
:*Autoblocks only last 24 hours. If the user's IP privacy is important to him, he doesn't have to submit a request.
:*If the reviewing admin doesn't see an IP supplied as part of the unblock request, he may be less likely to grant the unblock. Sometimes genuine vandals are caught in autoblocks and the admin doesn't want to make a mistake. (He can check the IP's contributions, if an IP is supplied).
:*Rangeblock victims (even if innocent) often have to wait for a checkuser to look at the request, to be sure they are not the person the rangeblock was intended to catch. It is possible that autoblocked users would have to wait for a checkuser as well, under the proposed plan. This is hardly a step forward. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 18:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

You are talking about request messages and those are important too. However, User:Od Mishehu was referring to unblock success messages posted by the admin. [[User:Lightmouse|Lightmouse]] ([[User talk:Lightmouse|talk]]) 18:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:If you are speaking about {{tl|unblock-auto}} you should check with Od Mishehu. Though he recently [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AUnblock-auto&diff=262067582&oldid=232781628 updated] that template, it looks to me that <nowiki>{{subst:Request accepted|...|...|...}}</nowiki> still prints out the IP address on the User talk page. I agree that it is pointless to echo the IP address there. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 18:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know which messages this applies to. That was why I asked for a review. User:Od Mishehu identified one and it looks like you have identified another that needs fixing (can somebody fix that one?). Perhaps there are more. [[User:Lightmouse|Lightmouse]] ([[User talk:Lightmouse|talk]]) 11:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

== Insult ==

Can you please make sure that whoever constantly writes this:

:και για να παραφράσω τον Καραϊσκάκη τωρα που έμπλεξες με δ'αυτους κλάσε μου τον μπούτσο —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.53.62 (talk) 14:20, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

on my user talk is going to stop? This is a heavy insult in Greek, its translation is:

:and to paraphrase Karaiskakis now that you messed up with them fart my p**is —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.53.62 (talk) 14:20, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.--[[User:Lady 6thofAu|Lady 6thofAu]] ([[User talk:Lady 6thofAu|talk]]) 21:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:Don't speak Greek at all, so I won't comment much here, but the free translator I ran this through gave me something about "ice cold" and didn't translate most of it besides that.  Could be different dialects or something, or the translator sucking, but that doesn't line up with the above quite.  Cheers.  [[User:Lifebaka|<i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>]][[User talk:Lifebaka|'''++''']] 21:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

::Yes, its because it's slang, removing it google gives [http://translate.google.com/translate_t#el|en|%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9%20%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1%20%CE%BD%CE%B1%20%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%83%CF%89%20%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD%20%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%8A%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%B7%2C%20%CF%84%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B1%20%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%85%20%CE%AD%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B5%CF%82%20%CE%BC%CE%B5%20%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%82%2C%20%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%B5%20%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%85%20%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD%20%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%84%CF%83%CE%BF this]. And these are the untranslated:
::*[http://translate.google.com/translate_t#el|en|%CE%AD%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B1]
::*[http://translate.google.com/translate_t#el|en|%CE%BA%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%BD%CF%89]
I don't want such words written on my talk page.--[[User:Lady 6thofAu|Lady 6thofAu]] ([[User talk:Lady 6thofAu|talk]]) 23:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:The user's been given a personal attack warning, if they carry on they will be blocked. I've put your talk page on my watchlist. ''[[User:Hut 8.5|<b style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</b>]]'' 11:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
== Wikihounding by [[User:Nickhh]] ==

This editor has been following around on a fairly regular basis, getting himself involved in many content disputes to which I am a party, undoing my work for the fun of it, apparently, as per [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ignacy_Schwarzbart&diff=255675198&oldid=255667479 this diff] - note the edit summary. In addition to this, some previous examples include [[Israeli settlement]] - with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Israeli_settlement&diff=252443154&oldid=252400715 this diff] - (note the edit summary), [[Muhammad al-Durrah]], [[Nahum Shahaf]] and others. I have [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ANickhh&diff=255678876&oldid=255000258 asked him before to stop], which he disregarded (or rather, described as 'Personal attacks, bullshit, threats'), and continued today to follow me to yet another article he has never before edited, in order to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gaza_beach_explosion_(2006)&diff=prev&oldid=263821987 insert himself] squarely into a content dispute against my position </br>
I am not the only one who has noted this type of behavior - the editor's talk page is full of such concerns from other editors he has apparently been hounding - see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ANickhh&diff=252536360&oldid=252535965 this] and  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nickhh&diff=prev&oldid=249888928 this]. In fact, the hounding behavior is so obvious, and has been complained about so often, that he has taken to prefacing his hounding edits with a "Stalking disclaimer" - see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIf_Americans_Knew&diff=258324179&oldid=258289768 as a recent example].  [[User:Canadian Monkey|Canadian Monkey]] ([[User talk:Canadian Monkey|talk]]) 22:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

:For the record (just in case anyone takes this bizarre complaint even remotely seriously) I have never followed this guy anywhere, other than the one occasion (referred to above) over a month ago, when I admittedly noticed on his contributions page that he was putting up an article about a [[Ignacy Schwarzbart|Polish-Jewish politician]] who had tried to warn the world about the Nazi holocaust for deletion. I believe removing the prod did WP a service. Other than that, editing or commenting on the same page as someone else occasionally in related topic areas, sometimes weeks apart, is only going to be seen as hounding or following that person in the mind of someone with an overbearing ego. And the fact that a smear campaign to that effect seems to have developed, which generates its own momentum and which I have quite correctly removed from my talk page, does not make the allegation any truer. --[[User:Nickhh|Nickhh]] ([[User talk:Nickhh|talk]]) 12:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the Ignacy Schwarzbart article only: Canadaian Monkey, I note that while he did remove your prod, he (along with a second editor), also over the next two days turned it from one line into a full stub, thus fulfilling the goal of the prod. Bringing it here a month later is ridiculous, stale, and an attempt at a gotcha move.

I haven't looked TOO deeply into the rest, but it looks like you saw the other disagreement about Nick's followingor not of another editor, and decided to stack yours onto it, since it's more credible that way. [[User:ThuranX|ThuranX]] ([[User talk:ThuranX|talk]]) 12:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

:I'm not going to really intervene here with any archaeological diffs as my issues with Nickhh have for the most part subsided and normalized but, in general, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gaza_beach_explosion_(2006)&diff=prev&oldid=263821987 this diff] is certainly not "a month later" and if Canadian Monkey feels there is a problem and that he'd tried to solve it by asking nicely and was ignored, then this is a very reasonable place to request assistance. I would suggest Nickhh make some note that he'll make a sincere effort to avoid even the appearance of following Canadian Monkey's contributions page and we will end this at that. <b>[[User:Jaakobou|<span style="font-family:Arial; color:teal;">Jaakobou</span>]]''[[User talk:Jaakobou|<sup style="color:#1F860E;">Chalk Talk</sup>]]''</b> 00:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Sorry, is the suggestion that I am not allowed to do anything on any page where another editor I've encountered before happens to be as well? And that it is ''my'' responsibility to prevent ''other people'' coming to their own odd conclusions that I am following them when I am doing nothing of the sort? There's no problem to solve here. And note the diff you've raised above is indeed, er, a month after the Schwarzbart diff; and also, pace CM, I was not reverting any material of his or "editing against his position" on the Gaza page (some five days after his last edit), but never mind either of those points. But hang on a sec .. you yourself [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gaza_beach_explosion_(2006)&action=history dived in], a whole ''three minutes'' after my edit to revert it in its entirety. And now you've turned up here too, to add your "no smoke without fire, surely" observations. All very strange. --[[User:Nickhh|Nickhh]] ([[User talk:Nickhh|talk]]) 11:02, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I cannot say that I see any merit in the complaint against Nickhh.  Reviewing the discussions on his talk page and his contributions, it seems the worst he is guilty of is minor incivility in response to provocation.  Leaving the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ANickhh&diff=255678876&oldid=255000258 warning] Canadian Monkey left above is NOT asking nicely about a problem. (if there are other contacts, please provide diffs) It was an [[WP:CIVIL|uncivil]] warning that failed to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]].  Personally, I believe that while technically against policy, Nickhh's reply to that warning can be explained, if not justified by the tone of the warning itself.  Canadian Monkey seems to be caught up in seeing what he wants/fears to see in Nickhh's behavior, which is stalking.   I do not think any reasonable user would consider a review of the contribution page of someone you had contact with stalking.  The [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ignacy_Schwarzbart&diff=255675198&oldid=255667479 prod removal] for example was certainly justified, and there is no evidence that I can see that Nickhh followed Canadian Monkey around and made changes just to harass/disrupt/hound him.  Reading the page on harassment, simply following the work of another editor and occasionally dropping in to oppose that editor is NOT harassment.  It is only a policy violation if it is "in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work, with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor" as per [[WP:HOUND]].  Even if in all of the cases cited, Nickhh WAS watching Canadian Monkey's contribution page and went to the articles in question because he was there, the incidents are so spread out that no reasonable, uninvolved person should consider them hounding.  For these reasons, unless substantially better evidence can be provided in the form of diffs, I don't believe the complaint has any merit; referral to Wikiquette Alerts would not even be justified as Nickhh has already been warned on his talk page by a third party. [[User:Theseeker4|Theseeker4]] ([[User talk:Theseeker4|talk]]) 17:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Agree of course. Even if I had been picking up pages from CM's contributions page from time to time - ''which I have not, whether to argue against him or otherwise'' - that is not in itself a crime under WP law. As noted I have recently been on the receiving end of a whole rash of these claims, all from editors who I have disagreed with from time to time on the occasions when I venture into Israel-Palestine pages. That's why I get p#ssed off when it happens, because it's a rather nasty smear (remember the policy used to refer to "stalking") often delivered with a very aggressive note on one's talk page, and it's happening with tedious regularity from a bunch of editors with the same POV (who are also making similar wild accusations against others, eg [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:NoCal100/Nishidani here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MeteorMaker#Zionist_Entity here]). In a way I'm glad one of them has finally brought it here so it can fall under some third party scrutiny, as it now has. But can someone now close this off? I'd really rather have much less unresolved mud flying around with my name attached to it. --[[User:Nickhh|Nickhh]] ([[User talk:Nickhh|talk]]) 18:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:: As a followup, both {{user|Nickhh}} and {{user|Canadian Monkey}} were blocked for edit-warring, primarily at [[France 2]] but it looks like it was also at [[Chris McGreal]] and [[Barbara Plett]] as well. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 18:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

== Merging page histories ==

If anybody is good at this, [[Wikipedia:Database reports/Redirects obscuring page content]] is a pretty good way to find page histories with issues. For example, [[Busch Gardens Europe]] and [[Busch Gardens Williamsburg]] need to be merged and cleaned up. Cheers. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 18:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
== [[Glider]] edit abuse and 3rr avoidance ==

The Glider article has been held at essentially the same version by two or more editors ([[User:Rlandmann]] and [[User:Jmcc150]]) conspiring[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rlandmann#Scope_of_articles][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rlandmann#Glider_debate] to edit war to hold an article and prevent it from progressing, while avoiding the 3 revert limit. They have been repeatedly doing this over a long period.

They even went to the degree of creating what is self-evidently a content fork at [[unpowered aircraft]].

They also keep saying that any and essentially all changes I make to the article are 'non consensus' and require more discussion on the talk page. That's fair- to a point, but they've been saying this for about a month now and the article has changed negligibly. They've also removed citation tags quite a bit.

Trouble is 'glider' is a standard term which is specified by the FAA among others, and it doesn't mean what they say it does (so they are not following NPOV, as that involves including ''all'' notable points of view in an article, the use they try to impose is a common one, but there are many common counter-examples) They are going out of their way to systematically remove other points of view from the article, and ganging up on me to do that.

I consider this to be disruptive and abusive editing. Both editors are highly experienced and know that the wikipedia works with respect to NPOV. I've even pointed it out, gave chapter and verse on the policy and shown the relevant definitions, but they haven't stopped.

Um? Help?- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 21:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

:Before I comment, I'd like to see their response to your post above - presumably you left them {{tl|ANI-notice}} notifications?  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 22:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

::Wow. First, I steadfastly deny "conspiring" to do anything, let alone edit war. The fact that Jmcc150 and I happen to agree that Wolfkeeper's suggested changes to the article are ill-considered and detrimental is hardly evidence of a "conspiracy". Wolfkeeper's views on the scope of this article have failed to gain consensus, and although she or he has continued to voice them (increasingly more forcefully), exactly nobody has been won over so far. 
::My involvement on Glider so far consists of ''one'' reversion of Wolfkepeer's anti-consensus additions to the article [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Glider&diff=264311638&oldid=264294358 yesterday].
::Furthermore, I reject Wolfkeeper's characterisation of this as a POV issue (for reasons that I've explained [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conflict|elsewhere]] and that she or he is aware of). To give myself a "reality check" on this, I recently posted a question on [[WT:NPOV]] as a prelude to taking it to [[WP:NPOVN]] if the response there indicated that I wasn't too far off-base in my thinking.
::That there has been negligible change to the article despite a month of discussion seems to illustrate to me nothing more or less than the changes that Wolfkeeper has suggested have failed to find support, and that the various people involved have been happy with the scope of the article as it was. People aren't going to radically change an article simply because Wolfkeeper would like them to or says that they "should". 
::As I read it, the current consensus seems to be that the scope of the article should be a narrow one, covering the aircraft that people commonly refer to as "gliders" (ie, one of [[:File:K21 glider.jpg|these]]) That's a far more narrow definition than I would like to see, and vastly more narrow again than what Wolfkeeper would like. However, there simply isn't any consensus to implement my preference, much less Wolfkeeper's. I can live with that, and I certainly don't think that there's any "cabal" operating to keep the definition narrower than what I would want.
::I believe that Wolfkeeper is acting in the best interests of the encyclopedia as she or he sees them; but that this view is predicated on an idiosyncratic and narrow interpretation of policy that others do not share. Her or his treatment of other editors has been consistently sarcastic, rude, and even abusive, and this pattern seems to be intensifying as she or he becomes increasingly frustrated that other editors have not "bought into" the ideas being put forward.
::What else can I say? --[[User:Rlandmann|Rlandmann]] ([[User talk:Rlandmann|talk]]) 10:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:::I believe that this is a deceptive description of his actions here; as he is one of two people that are actively defining the 'consensus'. His actions in the article include using administrative powers to move the entire glider article and all its history to unpowered aircraft [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Unpowered_aircraft&diff=259026594&oldid=259000820] as a way to create a dumping ground for any kind of 'inconvenient' glider that they don't wish to describe as such, but which are described as such by third parties.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 13:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

::I am grateful to [[User:RegentsPark]] for bringing this posting to my attention. The long established scope of the article has been recently the subject of many discussions with one energetic user. I will not attempt to summarise the basis of the disagreement here but I have attempted to accommodate his views in the text of the article. Discussions were still in progress when Wolfkeeper took unilateral action, which I reversed once. Wolfkeeper also proposed a merger with [[unpowered aircraft]] and within hours began implementing it. I accept any sanction administrators may wish to impose for having a rational debate on a talk page before taking action. [[User:Jmcc150|JMcC]] ([[User talk:Jmcc150|talk]]) 11:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:::Note also that, perhaps significantly, Jmcc150 describes himself at [[User:Jmcc150]] as a gliding instructor (by which I'm sure he means sailplane as defined by the FAA) on his user page. In other words, there is a conflict of interest in his editing here and you could at least ''imagine'' that he would not wish, for example, hang gliders to be described as gliders in the wikipedia because he could even lose business, even though the FAA and FAI definitions do seem to consider them to be gliders... and the name hang ''glider'' is a bit of a clue. Or perhaps he just likes to call sailplanes hang gliders, that's not uncommon in the UK, but I just note that it looks fishy to me, and it gives me more cause for concern the more persistently he tries to avoid an article that follows the NPOV policy and the FAA/FAI/NASA definition and attempts to narrow the scope of the article in this way. I personally have absolutely no problem at all with experts editing the wikipedia, even if they have a theoretical conflict of interest, but when their edits appear to be following that potential interest, then I get concerned.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 13:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Out of the 97 instructors at Lasham, three are paid, and I am not one of them. I do it for fun. I get concerned when good faith is questioned. [[User:Jmcc150|JMcC]] ([[User talk:Jmcc150|talk]]) 14:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::You also claim to have written a book though. You can see how this can be misconstrued, and in any case because of your interest nearly ''anyone'' will tend to overvalue the particular aircraft they fly. That wouldn't be conducive to neutrality and weight. Among other things if I've understood your position, you don't seem to actually believe that (for example) hang gliders are correctly considered gliders and IRC have acted to remove mention of them from glider.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 15:59, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Is this the place to continue the same arguments about common names? I plead guilty to being an expert, and I recognise that it does not give me or anyone ownership of any article. [[User:Jmcc150|JMcC]] ([[User talk:Jmcc150|talk]]) 19:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The other thing that needs fixing is the history on [[unpowered aircraft]]. When Rlandmann content forked glider he did it by renaming it to unpowered aircraft. I mean his intention that this was to be a content fork couldn't be clearer, a good faith article would have been created from scratch, but that aside this means that the glider article suddenly pops into existence (essentially) in December, this has actually confused quite a lot of people into thinking that unpowered aircraft wasn't something they just invented. The reality is the other way around, the glider article is much older. This needs to be fixed. That requires admin priviledges.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 14:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::As an editor and admin who frequently edits aircraft articles, but as yet not this one, let me comment here as a somewhat outsider (to this debate, at least). A review of the long-term discussion shows that Wolfkeeper is a voceriferous proponent of his own views on the article and how it should be structured and its scope, but it also shows that he is essentially alone in that viewpoint, and that a number of other editors have opposed his viewpoint. I'm sure his actions are in good faith, if a bit, um, enthusiastic. However, I would caution that no matter how passionate an editor is towards their viewpoint, at some point one has to back off and realize that consensus doesn't agree. I've been on the conceding side myself more than once, and it's not easy to do, but I'd suggest that Wolfkeeper back off a bit. '''[[User:Akradecki|<span style="color:#62BB32;">AK<span style="color:#006400;">Radecki</span></span>]]'''[[User_talk:Akradecki|<sup style="color:#62BB32;">Speaketh</sup>]] 19:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::If the wikipedia simply becomes about ganging up on editors that are pushing for due weight and unbiased sources then the game of building an encyclopedia is lost. Right now, in my opinion that's what's happening, and your comments seem to more or less support doing that.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 23:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:Before anybody goes "fixing" anything, they'll need to take a careful read of the edit histories. They will discover that Wolfkeeper is factually wrong on two important points: I didn't have anything to do with the creation of "unpowered aircraft", and I certainly didn't move/merge "Glider" anywhere. All these pages have been shuffled around a lot, to the point where on 19 December two significant problems existed: "Unpowered aircraft" had been created by someone pasting content from the original "glider" article without noting that for licencing purposes, and (more importantly) the actual parent page for all of this stuff with an edit history stretching back to 2005 (that had existed at "Glider" up to early December) was now buried under a redirect at "Glider (aircraft)". I killed two birds with one stone by merging the ''page history'' of "Glider (aircraft)" with that of "Unpowered aircraft", which resolved both problems. A review of the page history of "Unpowered aircraft" confirms the first point, the link provided by Wolfkeeper herself/himself above confirms the second. --[[User:Rlandmann|Rlandmann]] ([[User talk:Rlandmann|talk]]) 21:24, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
::You might well be right, and if I was inaccurate in any way, I apologise, but the current situation is that the history of the glider article is in the unpowered aircraft article, disconnected from the text in glider. The text in unpowered aircraft shares little if anything in common with that history. Without checking very carefully, nobody necessarily did anything wrong per se, but it hasn't turned out at all well in that respect.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 23:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Thanks for the apology; it's genuinely appreciated. I have no particular preference that the edit history of the original Glider article stays where it is now, just that it needs to be preserved ''somewhere'' and preferably that the "somewhere" isn't buried under a redirect. I chose "Unpowered aircraft" to merge it into since at that time, that article was the closest in content to the penultimate version of "Glider (aircraft)" before it got redirected, because it didn't yet have a long edit history of its own (and because, as I said earlier, it solved a licencing problem). --[[User:Rlandmann|Rlandmann]] ([[User talk:Rlandmann|talk]]) 23:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
It is worth pointing out that comments about Wolfkeeper's behaviour have also been made by a different user on a different subject at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive818#Edit warring and meatpuppetry on g-force]] [[User:Jmcc150|JMcC]] ([[User talk:Jmcc150|talk]]) 11:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:Note that use of the term 'meatpuppetry' in the wikipedia is considered derogatory and his use of ANI seems to be part of a pattern of abusive behaviour by that particular user to more than one user, none of which to my knowledge have been involved in any kind of conspiratorial behaviour against him at all, nor have they acted in ways that would normally be considered improper. I'm just hoping Greg_L will add well referenced and clear content to the g-force article. I certainly condemn conspiratorial conduct in all forms however; I prefer to discuss NPOV, due weight and references. I appreciate that others do not always consider these things to be of primary importance, and this is nearly always to be regretted.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 13:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:* Note that Wolfkeeper’s above attempt to deflect the focus from his behavior is typical. As for “meatpuppet” being “derogatory”, that’s what the term is called. This is from [[wp:meatpuppets]]:

::{{quotation|'''Meatpuppet''' is a Wikipedia term of art meaning one who edits on behalf of or as proxy for another editor.  While Wikipedia [[WP:AGF|assumes good faith]] especially for [[WP:BITE|new users]], the recruitment of new editors to Wikipedia for the purpose of influencing a survey, performing reverts, or otherwise attempting to give the appearance of consensus is strongly discouraged. A new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose, shall be subject to the remedies applied to the user whose behavior they are joining.  The term ''meatpuppet'' is derogatory and should be [[WP:CIVIL|used only with care]]}}

::That’s what meatpuppets are called around here: meatpuppets. It is derogatory only because ''being a meatpuppet'' is a bad thing to be; like being a liar. But if the shoe fits…

:: You’ve been ''extraordinarily'' tendentious and have refused to accept  blindingly obvious facts on [[talk:g-force]], you have an extraordinary propensity to accuse other editors of engaging in the very behaviors you seem to have patented, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AGreg_L&diff=264586995&oldid=263789530], and you are exceedingly uncivil [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AGreg_L&diff=264625487&oldid=264622362]. And here I am at ''yet another venue'' (fresh in the middle of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=264711917#Edit_warring_and_meatpuppetry_on_g-force this ANI against you]) dealing with more of your antics. I also have great difficulty believing a thing you write. It is nearly impossible to prove that someone is lying since they might simply be galactically clueless. Nevertheless, most of your writings lack that necessary virtue of being true. Yesterday, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wolfkeeper&oldid=264580620#Edit_warring your talk page] looked to me like you are out of control here and need to be blocked for a good solid week until you can learn how to play with others. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">'''[[User:Greg L|Greg L]]''' ([[User_talk:Greg_L|talk]])</span> 18:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:::I simply rest my case.- ([[User:Wolfkeeper|User]]) '''Wolfkeeper''' ([[User_talk:Wolfkeeper|Talk]]) 20:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

== [[User:Armorpiercer]] ==

Can someone have a look at this user's page? I'm not sure if it's within the spirit of the userpage policy. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 22:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

: Looks like he's writing a new article, and it's reasonably high quality.  Perhaps the best thing to do is not to invoke policy, but to suggest to him that it should be made into an encyclopedia article.  Perhaps he's waiting until it's "perfect" to do that--which is a common mistake.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 22:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The article has now been moved by its author into mainspace.  Looks like good work too. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 20:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

== What can I do about this? ==

{{resolved|Both editors requested to drop it, and get back to regular editing. -- [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 20:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)}}
I have been in a minor dispute over a change that I made which kicked off an edit war with another editor. The other editor continues to leave responses on my talk page, accusing me of various infractions and then telling me that if I respond to him I will be reported for harrassment. Am I forced to not respond to these allegations for fear of having action taken against me? The last exchange is here [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A87.114.13.108&diff=264665383&oldid=264570885] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bretonbanquet&diff=264672451&oldid=264665709]. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]]) 14:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:Most of the discussion is on my talk page, his talk page (which has now been cleared), and on [[Talk:Deaths in 2009]] under the sections including the word "aviator". [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]]) 15:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

*'''Note''': I have informed the involved editor, [[User:Bretonbanquet]], of this discussion. <sup>''[[Special:Contributions/LeaveSleaves|<span style="color:#00009C">Leave</span>]]''</sup>'''[[User:LeaveSleaves|<span style="color:#00009C">Sleaves</span>]]''' 15:03, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I have asked this editor twice to leave me alone, and he refuses. There was a lengthy discussion at [[Talk:Deaths in 2009]] which has been resolved satisfactorily without his input, yet he insists on dragging it all out and posting lies and other material designed to prolong the argument on my talk page. I had initially apologised to him for any perceived wrongdoing on my part, despite there being none in my view, and I asked him to leave me alone. Twice. Yet here we are. My talk page is NOT cleared, it is archived for being too long, and I was tired of looking at his petty, false accusations. This editor's edit history consists entirely (apart from two edits) of arguing with me. He seems to think I am out to get him, but I suspect the opposite, and would just like him to leave me the hell alone. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 17:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:Your last post on my talk page [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A87.114.13.108&diff=264665383&oldid=264570885] contained accusations against me, made comments about my conduct, criticised me, and then told me that if I responded you would report me for harrassment. How can that be acceptable? Either don't post to my talk page or, if you do, permit me to respond to your comments. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]]) 17:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::Those accusations I made against you were refuting the false accusations you made about me, so I was merely doing what you say YOU are doing. Don't forget you threatened me with a blocking (on your 8th ever edit), yet you don't like being told to leave someone alone? I would allow you to respond to my comments if you actually DID that - you repeatedly dodge all my comments that involve you doing anything wrong, and concentrate on attacking me. If you were really worried about me taking action against you, why did you post yet another great diatribe on my talk page attacking me again? This latest post has been deleted, by the way - I can delete whatever I wish from my talk page. What part of "Leave me alone" don't you understand? It's very simple. Stop posting on my talk page and everything goes away - how hard can it be? No, you want to bring it here and drag it out here as well. What action do you think I would have taken if you'd just left me alone? Or did you just fancy a bit more of an argument? I've been editing for three years and have never encountered any editor as troublesome, persistently argumentative, and impassively obstructive as this. I have NO history of this kind of dispute anywhere, ever. This editor has nothing ELSE. I reiterate, stop contacting me and it all ends. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 17:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::The bit I don't understand about you telling me to leave me alone, is that you do it in a message that makes further comments about my conduct and goads me which such comments as telling me that I "look stupid". You are trying to make comments and then prevent me from responding to them. That is simply not acceptable to me. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]]) 17:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that I was trying to make a good faith edit, and provide my reasons for it. Your only actions were to revert me, goad me with such comments as "if you don't understand the word, look it up" and accusing me of "dumbing down". I gave you a warning, and you responded very badly to it, accusing me of all kinds of bad motives and arguing that you should not be warned by me. You DID revert three times (yes I did too) and you were warned, there is nothing untruthful about that. Please provide evidence of any other "accusations" I made. You have taken exception to the warning and, in my opinion, spoken to me with nothing short of contempt from start to finish. Once again, if you don't want to speak to me, stop leaving me comments. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]]) 17:56, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::The original dispute is long ago. I explained why your warning was inappropriate, and you continued the edit war after I had begun a discussion on the article's talk page. You never even acknowledged the (very) good faith apology I gave you. I suggest you wouldn't know contempt if it was staring you in the face. I suspect your motives, refute all allegations made by you and I repeat, leave me alone. I HAVE stopped leaving you comments - please do the same. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 18:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::You have stopped leaving me comments??!! What do you think your comment above is, where you accuse me of edit warring, claim again that my action of warning you was inappropriate and then question my motives??!! You claim that you stopped edit warring and instead moved to a discussion, what you fail to clarify is that you reverted once again [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deaths_in_2009&diff=prev&oldid=264048292] and THEN started a discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Deaths_in_2009&diff=prev&oldid=264048709] so that the page was back to your preferred version when the discussion started. You also removed the warning with an edit summary calling it trolling [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bretonbanquet&diff=prev&oldid=264089243], even though you had reverted 3 times. I am going to keep responding to you as long as you keep commenting on me, my actions, my motives or keep accusing me. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]]) 18:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I meant I have stopped responding to you on your page, before you brought it here. It was all over as far as I was concerned, until you brought it here. You say I reverted before I started a discussion. Yes, that is very clear. I did not revert after the discussion had started. THEN you continued the edit war, left me a warning telling me to start a discussion (which I had already done - how inappropriate can a warning be?? You don't think that might be annoying?) and reverted it to YOUR preferred version, which was not the original version. It is patently obvious that I stopped the edit war because the last edit was yours! The discussion had started, the short edit war was over. But not for you, you wanted to edit war just a little bit more. You fail to acknowledge that you gave me a warning for reverting three times, and immediately reverted for a third time yourself. One rule for me and a different rule for you. THAT is how inappropriate your warning was. I know you don't accept these facts, but what else can I do but repeat them? Why should I allow you to attack me here for no reason? [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 18:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Look, everything here so far consists of you two arguing with each other.  Since this is the admin noticeboard, why don't you wait for a response from an admin (which I am not).  The only result of continuing the argument will be that no admin will want to wade through it. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 18:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::OK, I will not post again until it is reviewed, if Bretonbanquet also agrees not to. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]]) 18:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Point taken, and I apologise. This shouldn't even be here, in my view. This was already over. (If I can get a word in edgeways between the edit conflicts) [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 18:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::You hadn't stopped responding, because you had left the comment that I linked at the top of this thread, where you made statements about me and then told me that if I responded you would report me. I agree that your last revert was before the discussion, but it was JUST before so, again, you made a decision to revert once more and then start a discussion. Again, this left the page on YOUR version. You have questioned my motives many times, so I will question yours here - I believe that you were playing the system, by getting in a sneaky revert and then claim that you had been the one to stop the edit war by starting a discussion. I warned you because you had reverted three times and so were at obvious risk of reverting again. Yes, I had reverted 3 times, but what should I have done? Warned myself?! Thankfully you stopped (I see no reason to believe that you had already stopped - just because you started a discussion on the back of another revert). Your previous comments have indicated that you think that an anon editor should not warn an "established" editor, I still have no idea why. That, it seems to me, is the main underlying problem here. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]]) 18:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Phew. While I'm not an admin, I don't think this really needs admin intervention. From the look of things, the whole issue here is that 87. issued {{tlx|uw-3rr}} to Bretonbanquet when their edit dispute had ''reached'' 3 revisions on each side. Bretonbanquet has cited [[WP:DTTR]] and accused 87. of making an assumption of bad faith by having issued said warning. What strikes me about the whole affair is the [[WP:BITE|BITE]]yness of Bretonbanquet's behavior towards 87.; "[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:87.114.13.108&diff=264536230 do you think it appropriate to be handing out warnings with your 8th edit?]" is one example. What disturbs me is that this argument is ''ongoing'' even after the content dispute has ended. Bretonbanquet has had several chances to just let it go, which I think would be the best solution for ''both'' parties. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 19:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:I bite if I'm bitten first. And I DID apologise some time ago. I would LOVE to let it go. Why is it only me who failed to let it go? [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 19:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::*In my first edit I said - '''"Plain English - making this widely understandable without having to look up far less common word"'''
::*Your first revert said - '''"rv - it's a perfectly plain word - if you don't know it, click on it..."'''
::*I reverted with - '''"rv aviator is far more widely understood - the aim is to communicate, not force people to look up words, when there is a more common word"'''
::*You reverted - '''"Undid revision 263999252 by 87.114.13.108 (talk) if you don't understand the word, this is not a reason to dumb down the"'''
::*I reverted - '''"there is nothing dumb about using aviator, and nothing clever about using aviatrix - don't use a less common word when a more common word will suffice (and will ease communication"'''
::*You reverted - '''"rv aviator / aviatrix - we do not substitute words for less common ones for no good reason - use the discussion page if you object"'''
::*I reverted - '''"rv do not substitute the less common aviatrix for the more common aviator, it makes it less understandable to many (especially those were english is not their first language"'''

::Do you think that you "bit" me with your first two edit summaries? Why is my leaving you a warning, when you had reverted 3 times, a "bite"? [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]]) 19:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Let. It. Go. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 19:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::::The problem is, as I raised at the start of this thread, is that you keep making comments and accusations, and then try to prevent me responding (in fact threaten me that if I do respond you will "report" me). Even above saying "I bite if I am bitten first", is accusing me of biting you (to which I am responding). If you genuinely want this to stop, then just don't post again, or if you do post do not make any comments about me, my actions or my motives. Simple as that. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.13.108|87.114.13.108]] ([[User talk:87.114.13.108|talk]])  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment was added at 19:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::::I am letting this go, I honestly suggest you do the same. I hope you enjoy your time on Wikipedia. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 19:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

{{ec}}[[WP:BITE]] means don't bite the newcomers. That is, try to be more inviting to newcomers (i.e., someone with 8ish edits), and try to assume [[Hanlon's razor]] applies. You had made it clear that you had no intent to continue discussing [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:87.114.13.108&diff=264570090 with this comment], yet you responded to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bretonbanquet&diff=264626759 87.'s response] which indicated he/she was willing to stop discussing as well. [[WP:IPAT]] is good advice for these kinds of situations, though I'm not sure either party was actively making personal attacks. In any case, why not end it now? If 87. comments again, Breton, I suggest you don't respond. And if Breton comments again, 87., I suggest you don't respond. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 19:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:Essentially, you'd both like the other to stop talking to you about this issue? The actual content dispute (Aviator/aviatrix) has several other editors involved and a consensus will no doubt be reached. Your dispute with each other can be resolved by both of you just leaving it alone and going back to regular editing. [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 20:09, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::Just to say that a consensus on the original matter was reached amicably some days ago, and there's been no problem there since. Thanks for your input :o) [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 20:12, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Pleased to hear it. There seems no reason for either of you to continue your personal dispute either - both of you should now simply stop responding to the other on this issue. There's nothing to be gained in continuing this thread, so I've marked it resolved. [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 20:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

== Minor with contact info ==

[[User:Arijitlaik]] appears to be a minor with contact info on his/her user page (school is grade 1-8 in India). I've got the flu and need to crawl back into bed, so if someone could pop over and deal with it, I'd be much obliged.--[[User:Fabrictramp|<span style="color:#228b22; font-family:comic sans ms;">Fabrictramp</span>]] | [[User talk:Fabrictramp|<span style="color:#960018; font-family:Papyrus;">talk to me</span>]] 15:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:Page blanked - oversight requested.&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 20:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

== [[:Category:Wikipedia protected edit requests]] ==

Can some admins clear the backlog from this CAT? Regards, [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 20:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
== Edit to [[Seigenthaler incident]] ==

{{resolved|A knowledgeable editor has reverted the edit}}

Could someone check [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seigenthaler_incident&diff=264545682&oldid=260012500 this] edit, about whether Brian Chase was re-hired by his employer?  I couldn't find an RS either way and need to go bed.  I realise this is not the normal place to ask such a question, but it seemed worth getting a quick response to an article concerned with Wikipedia's reliability. [[User:Adrian J. Hunter|Adrian&nbsp;'''J.'''&nbsp;Hunter]]<sup>([[User talk:Adrian J. Hunter|talk]]•[[Special:contributions/Adrian J. Hunter|contribs]])</sup> 15:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
== Have I been a jerk? ==

Hi. I recently came into some conflict with an Admin (and Member of the Mediation Committee), [[User:Tariqabjotu]], over the inclusion of a picture of a 5 month old very badly burned dead Palestinian girl on [[2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict]]. Tariq said that the photo was sensationalist and should have been removed for that reason. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict&diff=prev&oldid=264294851] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict&diff=prev&oldid=264291581] I pressed him on the issue on his talk page asking for a specific policy.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATariqabjotu&diff=264400225&oldid=263882390] His response that that "mere words were incomprehensible to [me]" took me somewhat by surprise. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cdogsimmons&diff=prev&oldid=264419140] I believe his comment was in reference to an argument I had made before that the photo should be kept. In that argument I used three capitalized words followed by exclamation marks:  "TANTAMOUNT TO CENSORSHIP!!!!" [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict&diff=prev&oldid=264395554] Tariqabjotu responded that I was being a "jerk". [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict&diff=prev&oldid=264418250]. He then accused me of "making up your own comment and then responding to that". [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict&diff=prev&oldid=264505026] He also made a comment that I found somewhat insulting to [[User:Sean.hoyland]] who had agreed with me on the matter.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict&diff=prev&oldid=264511351] I asked for an apology but so far have not received one. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACdogsimmons&diff=264489468&oldid=264419140] (1) Am I being a jerk? (Possibly by making a big thing out of this by bringing it to Admin noticeboard?) (2)  Was my comment defending the photo out of line? (3) Has Tariqabjotu crossed the line? Thanks.--[[User:Cdogsimmons|Cdogsimmons]] ([[User talk:Cdogsimmons|talk]]) 22:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:To me, your "TANTAMOUNT TO CENSORSHIP!!!!" was definitly being a jerk, but I wouldn't be ashamed of your other actions.  Even if the picture doesn't belong on the page you clearly acted in good-faith all along and don't seem to be trolling. <s>I'm not sure what help an admin in particular can do in this case, though.</s> [[User:Themfromspace|Themfromspace]] ([[User talk:Themfromspace|talk]]) 22:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

:Here's my take:
:* Whether the image should be on the page is a question for community consensus, as with any other content dispute.
:* Your message here [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATariqabjotu&diff=264400225&oldid=263882390] suggests that you are thinking that everything is ok provided there is no specific policy.  This is incorrect: the policies constrain consensus (editors can't ignore [[WP:NPOV]] or [[WP:BLP]] even if there is a consensus to do so), but the consensus is free to be more restrictive.  
:* The reference to [[WP:UNDUE]] does seem appropriate to me.  Children have been injured and killed on both sides of this conflict; it gives undue weight to post an emotionally inflammatory photograph of a dead Palestinian child, as if there have not also been dead Israeli children.
:* Your words, "TANTAMOUNT TO CENSORSHIP!!!!" [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict&diff=prev&oldid=264395554] are over the top.  It is not censorship for the consensus of editors to agree on what an article should say, and remove text or images that you think should be there.  But the all caps and exclamation points suggest that it's time for a [[WP:TEA|cup of tea]].  Edit something else.
:* Yes, you were being a jerk.
:* Yes, the other guy was also over the line. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 22:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

::And I'll only add that written communication is not a natural way for humans to communicate, given that we rely so much on non-verbal cues. If someone appears to take what you've written the wrong way, don't escalate the intensity. It won't help, and they don't have a way to back down. (I'll avoid the obvious comparison to the conflict discussed in the article.) People can have bad days, or something just hits them wrong, or they were reading (or typing) too fast and leave out a key word that changes the meaning entirely. In which case, as Tb said, [[WP:TEA]] is the guideline that applies. (The guideline I give my employees for dealing with the public is that if someone comes off at you, remember their wife probably just had a fight with them, the dog bit them, their boss yelled at them, the tax agent called to set up an audit, and you were just the first person they saw after that. Be nice to them and don't take it personally.)--[[User:Fabrictramp|<span style="color:#228b22; font-family:comic sans ms;">Fabrictramp</span>]] | [[User talk:Fabrictramp|<span style="color:#960018; font-family:Papyrus;">talk to me</span>]] 22:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

::: I'd say that Tariqabjotu is giving his usual thoughtful and reasoned input here, and that the complainant is mainly disgruntled because he is not getting the answer he wants.  The onus is firmly on Themfromspace to achieve consensus for the disputed change he wants to make, and it seems to me that he has failed to do so.  There is nothing for us to do in changing that.  His use of [[WP:ALLCAPS]] is not a good sign, and it is clear that whoever is in the wrong here it is probably not Tariqabjotu. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 10:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::::I think you're talking about me Guy, not Themfromspace. I see that I obviously should have used bold for those three words instead of capitals. I see also that the consensus appears that I was being a jerk. Good to know. However, I note that I may not have been the only one in the wrong. I'd also like to continue to edit the article and try to find some consensus about the inclusion or exclusion of the photograph, which I believe I can do without becoming overcome with emotion. Just to make it clear, there did seem to be consensus to keep the photograph established on the talk page. I had to continuously restore the photograph when anonymous editors removed it with no edit summaries. The photograph has held up under examination of its copyright and verifyability. I still don't think the picture violates WP:UNDUE. To clarify, during the present conflict (for the last month), I am not aware of any Israeli children who were killed while it's been verified there are at least 300 Palestinian children who have died. I do not see the picture as "sensationalist" but as an accurate portrayal of one of the consequences of this conflict. If there were pictures of dead Israeli children that were being removed against policy, I would be defending their inclusion just as strenuously. Anyway, if I've been a jerk. I apologize.--[[User:Cdogsimmons|Cdogsimmons]] ([[User talk:Cdogsimmons|talk]]) 17:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::Instead of trying to figure out only how to get what you want, see if you can figure out how to give everyone what they want.  Find some pictures of devastation of lives by rocket attack, and put '''both''' up to show the devastation caused by the conflict.  In other words, address the NPOV concerns that others have expressed, rather than trying to defeat or disprove them.  In that way, you will only make the encyclopedia better.  You do not seem to have yet gotten the point that there was nothing "against policy" about removing the photo.  There is no policy that requires all material to be kept.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 18:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::::::That's not a bad idea to find other images. Unfortunately, I don't think it will make a difference considering the concerted efforts of numerous people to remove the picture because they find it offensive, which I still consider to be a violation of our policy that wikipedia not censored. See [[WP:CENSOR]]. Obviously, you are completely right that there is no policy that requires all material to be kept, which would make it quite hard to revert vandalism. Luckily I didn't say that. However, I agree that the more photographs of the conflict that can be considered the better.--[[User:Cdogsimmons|Cdogsimmons]] ([[User talk:Cdogsimmons|talk]]) 03:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::::The consensus of editors determines the content, provided policy is honored.  The consensus of editors is against vandalism.  You are trying to settle this by the invocation of rules and policies, when it is much more likely that earnest effort towards agreeing will do much good.  It sounds very much as if you don't want to work together with other editors who disagree, but that you are seeking some sort of policy stick (or think that [[WP:CENSOR]] gives you one, which it does not) which you can brandish against other editors.  You are appealing to some sort of rule that anything you like should be there, provided their is no policy opposing it.  This is '''incorrect'''.  The rule is instead that whatever the consensus of editors wants, goes, provided there is no policy opposing it.  And even those policies are chosen--you guessed it--by the consensus of editors.  This is a content dispute, and [[WP:DR]] is the key. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 04:49, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

::::::::Really? I don't think that's really what I'm doing at all. I've always been completely willing to consider the removal of the picture if there was consensus. But there wasn't. There was a consensus to keep it at first. Then people started to remove it without leaving edit summaries. The picture had to be restored. When I restored it, I left messages on the people's talk pages inviting them to discuss the image and whether it should be included on the talk page.  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:81.102.130.73&diff=prev&oldid=264397004], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:81.149.245.177&diff=prev&oldid=264328679], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:69.126.186.86&diff=prev&oldid=264163884], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:198.166.46.20&diff=prev&oldid=264141922] I even started a discussion trying to find a new consensus about whether the picture should be kept. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict&diff=prev&oldid=264705822] Do you still feel that I don't want to work with other editors with whom I disagree? As far as policy goes I try to follow it (unless of course, [[WP:IAR|policy recommends against doing so]]), and I don't have a problem quoting it to back up my argument. I hardly see doing so are using it as a "stick". Of course I did start this discussion as an inquiry into how I've possibly messed up a wikipedian, so thank you for your criticisms. I accept them in the spirit of self discovery.--[[User:Cdogsimmons|Cdogsimmons]] ([[User talk:Cdogsimmons|talk]]) 05:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

::::::::: I'm not the judge of whether consensus was acheived; I'm saying that content is determined by consensus, and not by appeals to [[WP:CENSOR]].  You have misunderstood that policy--it says that Wikipedia does not ''promise'' to censor material.  But the other policies, including those against needlessly inflammator material, remain.  As for your willingness to work with others, I'm only commenting on what I've seen '''here''', in which you are seeking first, whether you were a jerk (to which the consensus was, yes), and that you seem to be trying to get the content dispute settled here, which it won't be.  Please don't get into the trap of quoting policy as a tool for agreement.  It's a last resort.  Much better is to work to achieve '''consensus''', and if you can't, then to attempt the normal dispute resolution procedures.  I'm simply giving you my advice that your appeal to [[WP:CENSOR]] is misguided and irrelevant, and that you seem to be appealing to some fictive principle that content must be retained unless a policy mandates its removal.  There is no such policy.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 05:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::::Thanks for your comments. I disagree with a few things you've said about our policy on censorship, but that's ok. This really isn't the place to debate policy. This has been informative. --[[User:Cdogsimmons|Cdogsimmons]] ([[User talk:Cdogsimmons|talk]]) 06:00, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

== Arbitration Commitee announcement: new mailing list structure ==

The Committee has decided to implement several changes to its existing mailing list structure:

* The Committee's main mailing list, arbcom-l, will be restricted to sitting arbitrators, the designated mailing list coordinator, and Jimbo Wales.
* The Committee's private wiki will be identically restricted.
* The current "sitting arbitrators only" list will be retained as a backup to arbcom-l, but will not be normally used.
* A new mailing list, functionaries-l, will be created, with membership open to all arbitrators, former arbitrators in good standing, and CheckUser and Oversight operators.

The resolution authorizing this was passed 12/0, with votes in favor by Carcharoth, Casliber, Cool Hand Luke, Coren, FayssalF, FloNight, John Vandenberg, Kirill Lokshin, Rlevse, Roger Davies, Vassyana, and Wizardman, and no votes against or abstentions.

For the Committee, [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill]] 23:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

[[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#New mailing list structure|'''Discuss this''']]
:Cross-posted by [[User:Tznkai|Tznkai]] ([[User talk:Tznkai|talk]]), ''On behalf of the committee'' 23:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Awesome!  It's about time.  --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;">'''Cyde Weys'''</span>]] 06:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
== Comments requested on an article I speedy-deleted and which an editor wishes to restore after further work ==

I speedy deleted the article [[Advanced Programs, Inc (API)]] yesterday on the grounds that it both read like an advertisement and made no claim of notability. The article's creator, [[User:JAKS1975]], protested this decision on my talk page, and I restored the article to their user space at [[User:JAKS1975/API]] to allow them to work on it. JAKS1975 is now requesting that it be restored to Wikipedia-space. I personally don't think that the references provided are sufficient to meet [[WP:ORG]] as they are limited to entries in lists and databases of suppliers, a short paragraph which appears to be a summary of one of the company's press releases and two stories about the company which this firm later split from to become and independent business. I am aware, however, that this is only my opinion. Could other admins please review the article at [[User:JAKS1975/API]] and comment on whether it should be restored? [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] ([[User talk:Nick-D|talk]]) 03:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

: All the references in question are either mere directory entries or else the company's own press-releases printed in business pubs, neither of which are sufficient according to [[WP:ORG]]. In my opinion, it is not notable, or at least, no evidence of that has been met.  Google searches don't give much indication of notability also.  However, it seems to be in good faith, and not blatant advertising in my opinion.  The "blatant advertising" criterion refers to the nature of the content, not the question of notability.  Mere non-notability doesn't turn an otherwise ok article into advertising; and--if it were notable--this would be a fine article.  Likewise the article does make a credible claim of notability (though again I think the claim is incorrect), so it would again not be suitable for speedy deletion, in my opnion.  On the other hand, the account has been used only for the creation of this webpage, which rasises some [[WP:COI]] suspicions.  (Not an admin, but this is my opinion.)  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 04:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::Just an opinion, but I don't see any reason to move this to mainspace until it has a reasonable chance of surviving an AfD (which appears unlikely in its current state). [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 04:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:With those sources the article might have a hard time surviving an AFD discussion, but it's way above speedy-delete land. ''API is the world’s leading provider of shielded IT equipment, meeting both U.S. and NATO TEMPEST standards'' is a clear assertion of importance, and the tone of the article is not spammy in nature.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 04:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::The creator of this article is well-advised to find reliable third-party sources to back up this company's importance. The annual sales of $40 million sound like they would meet [[WP:CORP]] but so far we have little more than reprinted press releases to document the company's activities. The ''world's leading provider'' language doesn't come from any third party reference, it's the company's opinion of itself. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 05:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

''The author of the article posted his own notice on this page, which I've moved here for clarity.'' [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 06:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I recently published an article about the American IT company 'API', which does business with NATO governments, military organizations and the intelligence community (see: User:JAKS1975/API). After the article was deleted due to 'blatant advertising', I amended the text to become Wiki conform. The administrator Nick-D then also asked for more references for API, to srengthen the 'notability' aspect. I then provided 5 references to various news outlets and organizations but Nick-D is questioning if these are sufficient. Due to the nature of the business the company is in (information security), only a limited amount of news are being published about API, due to confidentiality or client request. Given the fact that companies, in the same market space, are listed on Wikipedia, but those companies have less marketshare or overall annual revenue than API, I would seek your guidance how to get my article approved and relaunched. - Thank You - [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]]) 07:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JAKS1975|contribs]]) 06:17, 17 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Note that a secret organization--or mostly secret one--is by definition not notable.  The question is purely one of notability in independent media. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 06:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I reviewed the exchange above and it appears the findings are: 1) the article is not spam, 2) grounds for speed deletion do not apply, 3) blatant advertising is no longer the issue. Therefore, the only issue I can see is that references are needed to support the companies industry status as being the 'worlds leading provider'. As company's status is industry knowledge but is not specifically confirmed or highlighted on any public domain site, would it help if I remove this claim and simply state that 'API is a provider of shielded IT equipment, meeting both U.S. and NATO TEMPEST standards'? Again, if I review the catagory 'defense companies of the united states', I find articles with much less references than I provided. [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]]) 07:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JAKS1975|contribs]]) 07:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: You have missed the key question of establishing notability; please review [[WP:ORG]].  Note that press releases and directory information does not count.  It is helpful to separate verifiability from notability.  Your comment here indicates awareness of a notability problem for one statement of apparent fluffery, but the real point is the absence of notability.  While it may be that the article does not currently meet the standards for speedy deletion (I make no judgement about the version that was deleted), note that everyone here has expressed the opinion that the article, as it stands, would not meet the normal deletion process's guidelines.  I'm not sure why you think it's relevant that those other company's have fewer references: at most, that would only establish that their articles should be deleted too, not that the API article is fine.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 07:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

TB, thanks for the additional comments. To clarify, the reason I encouraged administrators to review the category 'defense companies of the united states', is because I want to understand the criteria and standard being enforced on having to list references in order to establish notability. There seems to be a fluctuation and un-even approach to other Wiki posted articles, which in return makes more challenging for me to edit my article in such a way, so it does meet the standard. I also did review [[WP:ORG]] and here I fail to see what specific criteria's my article is violating or not adhering by. It appears my article does meet the standard of 'evidence of attention by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability'. I provided reference links to independent online publications based in Plymouth Meeting, PA, - Tulsa, OK and San Francisco, CA (though your comment that press releases do not count are duly noted). Can I therefore request if there is any solution to this problem, which you or I have not already addressed or which has not be identified yet? I strongly believe, that based upon the previous changes I made to the article, the latest version is presented is such a way, that it should not trigger deletion of any kind. If certain references need to be removed, for content reason, I will be more then glad to do so. I am open to suggestions. [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]]) 07:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JAKS1975|contribs]]) 08:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: You appear to be viewing this not in the spirit of "what companies are suitable for inclusion" but "what must I do to include ''this'' company".  It is quite common for people to be suspicious of [[WP:SPA|single-purpose accounts]] who do this.  Your best bet is to work on articles in your area of interest until you become more familiar with how we work here. Continuing to agitate about a subject which people are telling you is not suitable for inclusion, is unlikely to have any good effect for you. You're adding trade magazine press release reprints which are primarily about the parent company, with a single namecheck for your company. That is well short of what's needed.  Better by far to redirect to your parent company and have a short section there. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 17:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

: You seem to be concerned to figure out what standards apply to the inclusion of articles, and you've been told several times what they are: the general wikipedia notability guidelines, and especially [[WP:ORG]].  The references you give are reasonable references for the purpose of '''verifiability''' but they do nothing to establish '''notability''' which is an entirely separate concept.  If third parties have not '''noted''' the company, then it's really not '''notable'''.  You can figure out the standards by reading [[WP:ORG]] and listening to what you've been told here.  There may be '''no''' way: you seem to be asking, "what must I do to have this page be kept", and the answer is, "the subject must be notable. if it's not notable, there is nothing you can do."  Your explanation of '''why''' it's not notable is interesting, but unimportant--there is no exception to the notability rules for companies which, by client request, have been asked to keep things quiet.  You can't simultaneously get to be quiet and noticed.  If we remove the press releases, then the company has '''not''' had evidence of international, national, or at least regional media, and [[WP:ORG]] is clear that press releases don't count.  So what should you do?  Make the company notable.  If you have the power to do that, btw, then I now have concerns about [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]].  What is your relationship to the company?  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 18:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Dear Guy and Tb - As mentioned prior, I also thank you both for providing feedback to my questions and to help me understand what the issue is. Having said that, I clearly feel that both of you are acting slightly agitated now, about the kind of clarifications I am seeking, instead of me just accepting what you have previously stated. Again, all I do is ask questions and you have tried to answer them to your best of abilities (I assume). Hence, I propose to leave it at that. Also, for clarification, the thread of a 'single purpose account' is unwarranted, as I have posted a prior article about a completely different subject matter, not in English. Last but not least, the comment 'continuing to agitate about a subject which people are telling you is not suitable for inclusion, is unlikely to have any good effect for you', can be interpreted as a thread or even worse and I do not appreciate it, if it was meant as such. You will probably understand, that after I spent hours in researching the information for this article and it then not being allowed to be published, that I would like to understand exactly why, so that when I want to contribute my next article to Wikipedia, I am not running into the same challenges again. In any event, thx for having taken the time and for your efforts. Hopefully, I will do better next time. P.S. I am not sure if speed-deletion is considered a 'red flag', now hovering above my user ID and causing negative attention - If it is, and as we agreed that the article did not have grounds for speed-deletion, I would kindly request for that to be amended. Thank You! [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]]) 07:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JAKS1975|contribs]]) 23:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: If you are worried about "red flag", worry no further.  Everyone here would agree that your edits were made in good faith.  As for single-purpose-account, we can only go by ''this'' wiki.  I trust that you now understand the situation. The consensus here seems to be that the article would not meet the standards for deletion, but at the same time, that it was probably an error to speedily delete it (that is, if the version deleted is the version I saw).  It would be an error for you to re-create it unless you are going to work on notability (not verifiability, which is not at issue here), and if I have understood your description of the facts, it is unlikely that notability will be demonstrable.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 00:29, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks for the comments and oversight. To confirm what Tb just posted, having a single article speedy deleted is in no way considered a 'red flag'. [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] ([[User talk:Nick-D|talk]]) 00:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

TB - I might give it one final effort to somehow unearth the notability information that is needed, as I naturally would eventually like to launch this article; though I am questioning right now how successful I will be in finding this needed information. As I do enjoy a good challenge, let’s see what I can come up with (and as it is 1.50AM here, it’s now definitely time to go to bed) - Good Night Wikiworld! [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]]) 07:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JAKS1975|JAKS1975]] ([[User talk:JAKS1975|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JAKS1975|contribs]]) 00:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
== User:78.150.10.38 ==

[[User talk:78.150.10.38]] keeps vandalising articles about descendants of British royalty who are not royal themselves per George V's 1917 letters patent. I need your help, quick! [[User:Surtsicna|Surtsicna]] ([[User talk:Surtsicna|talk]]) 13:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:I have blocked the ip for 31 hours for edit warring over a range of subjects in pursuant to some point or other, without establishing consensus for the changes. Review welcome (of course). [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 13:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
== How long for an oversight response? ==

How long does it typically take for someone to respond to an e-mail sent to Oversight? --[[User:Glp888|Glp888]] ([[User talk:Glp888|talk]]) 02:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:In my experience, it's always been dealt with within 24 hours. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]]''' ([[User talk:Rschen7754|T]] [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|C]]) 02:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
::Really? I usually get a response within an hour or two--[[User:Jac16888|<font color="Blue">Jac</font><font color="Green">16888</font>]][[User talk:Jac16888|<sup><font color="red">Talk</font></sup>]] 02:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Yeah, same here, but I didn't want to guarantee that. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]]''' ([[User talk:Rschen7754|T]] [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|C]]) 02:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:::: I believe that we dock the [[volunteer|oversighters' pay]] if they do not respond within the [[WP:DEADLINE|documented SLA times]]. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 10:58, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::: First point is more valid than the second. If anything should be treated as if it has deadlines it probably is oversight. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 16:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::: I know that. And sometimes you can find an oversighter on (shock horror) #wikipedia-en-admins. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 20:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
*This is kind of a pointless thread, but I find that it fits a strongly left skewed distribution.  The vast majority of oversight requests I sent in were handled within an hour, with some longer ones pushing the mean later. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 13:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like codswallop to me. I e-mailed an oversight user on 30 November and never got any action or response. 'Round Christmas I gave up waiting. Unfortunately the information in question is now all over the internet. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 18:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

== New feature: expiry for temporary passwords ==

Just as a general FYI, [[rev:45503|r45503]] has been ok'd and will most likely be included in the next scap. This fixes [[bug:2242|bug 2242]], adding expiry times to temporary passwords, default set to one week. Since the question has already come up elsewhere, if a temporary password expires, you just have to request a new temporary password. [[User:^demon|^demon]] ([[User talk:^demon|talk]])

:Does this include temporary passwords sent via email through the account creation process? [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 19:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
::I would believe so. I haven't specifically checked that use-case, but temporary passwords all are checked with <tt>User::checkTemporaryPassword()</tt>, so it would seem to me that temporary passwords created during account creation would also be subject to this. Worse case scenario: a user gets an account registered for them, temporary password expires, they have to request a new password. [[User:^demon|^demon]] ([[User talk:^demon|talk]]) 18:42, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::Err... I know it's been a while since I've tried any of this but I thought the user cannot receive a password by e-mail until they have entered and confirmed the e-mail address which requires already being able to access their wiki-account (if that makes any sense). — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 18:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
== soitiz... ==

Hi I am new here so 1st of all I would like to say hi to every1.I apolagise if I am useing the wrong place to do this but yesterday I added a section to the techno part and it has been removed today, basicaly I am hopeing that this can be replaced as I am not trying to advertise anything or spam the site, basicly I invite you to look for your selfs [http://www.soitiz.info] basicly soitiz is an information techno site we do have a chat section but that is %100 techno related i.e. peoplre askng what can run well with a roland 303 and about ableton all tecno produceing equipment then we have a section for up and comeing [[techno]] djs lots of links to other techno related sites there is a world wide section were people can find out about techno parties all over the world and that is just the tip of the ice burg.basicly I was thinking that the artical you allready have can be ended in what I put up a site that will then (if intrested in techno) will give them any knowledge they need and if its not there a member of staff can useually find out quite quick but this has never happend yet.Basicaly all I am saying is soitiz and wiki are basicaly the same but soitiz is a techno encyclopidia.
I am hopeing a member of staff here will return what was put up last night if not please at least tell me why.
Thank you..  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Soitiz|Soitiz]] ([[User talk:Soitiz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Soitiz|contribs]]) 09:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Please review [[WP:EL]] and [[WP:COI]].  Note that the website in question is commercial in nature and requires registration to read content.  Moreover, because you seem to be adding your own website (please correct me if I have misunderstood), the link is significantly disfavored.  See [[WP:EL#ADV]].  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 09:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

* What Tb said.  And if you add it again, it's more than likely to end up on the blacklist. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 12:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

* An IP editor just added the link back to [[Techno]] this morning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Techno&diff=264900253&oldid=264638849].  Perhaps it should get added to the blacklist.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 19:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
== soitiz... ==

Hi I am new here so 1st of all I would like to say hi to every1.I apolagise if I am useing the wrong place to do this but yesterday I added a section to the techno part and it has been removed today, basicaly I am hopeing that this can be replaced as I am not trying to advertise anything or spam the site, basicly I invite you to look for your selfs [http://www.soitiz.info] basicly soitiz is an information techno site we do have a chat section but that is %100 techno related i.e. peoplre askng what can run well with a roland 303 and about ableton all tecno produceing equipment then we have a section for up and comeing [[techno]] djs lots of links to other techno related sites there is a world wide section were people can find out about techno parties all over the world and that is just the tip of the ice burg.basicly I was thinking that the artical you allready have can be ended in what I put up a site that will then (if intrested in techno) will give them any knowledge they need and if its not there a member of staff can useually find out quite quick but this has never happend yet.Basicaly all I am saying is soitiz and wiki are basicaly the same but soitiz is a techno encyclopidia.
I am hopeing a member of staff here will return what was put up last night if not please at least tell me why.
Thank you..  <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Soitiz|Soitiz]] ([[User talk:Soitiz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Soitiz|contribs]]) 09:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: Please review [[WP:EL]] and [[WP:COI]].  Note that the website in question is commercial in nature and requires registration to read content.  Moreover, because you seem to be adding your own website (please correct me if I have misunderstood), the link is significantly disfavored.  See [[WP:EL#ADV]].  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 09:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

* What Tb said.  And if you add it again, it's more than likely to end up on the blacklist. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 12:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

* An IP editor just added the link back to [[Techno]] this morning: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Techno&diff=264900253&oldid=264638849].  Perhaps it should get added to the blacklist.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 19:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
== [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]] ==

{{Resolved|A content dispute. Both sides reminded to stay civil. [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 21:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)}}
[[Wikipedia:BATTLEGROUND|Wiki is not a battleground]] and [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]] does not seems to care despite a warning by [[User:Golbez|Golbez]] here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Brandmeister#Re:_NK_revert]. [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]] has been engaged in edit warring and personal attacks using such expressions as "groundless mudslinging" (see here [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh#Chorbaijan]]). Call [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]] to order or encourage him to abstain from editing [[Nagorno-Karabakh]]. [[User:Capasitor|Capasitor]] ([[User talk:Capasitor|talk]]) 19:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:I don't see much evidence of an edit war (at least recently). I ''do'' see several heated disputes on the article talk page, though your criticism of "groundless mudslinging" pales a little compared to your insulting comment [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh&diff=256542035&oldid=256540447 here]. You (and everyone else involved) are reminded to be [[WP:CIVIL|civil]], and to comment on contributions, not contributors. If you disagree with article content you are encouraged to resolve that in discussion on the relevant article talk page. If an edit war does occur the correct palce to post details is at [[WP:AN3]]. [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 21:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
== Page move history mess ==

{{resolved}}
{{user|Eugene Krabs}} moved {{article|Long-term effects of alcohol}} to {{noredirect|Longterm effects of alcohol}}. This was reverted by {{user|Cyclonenim}}, but unfortunatly he reverted it by copy-pasting the text back and making the bad title into a redirect. That means the history of the page currently looks like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Long-term_effects_of_alcohol&action=history this], while the history of the redirect looks like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Longterm_effects_of_alcohol&action=history this] Needs sorting out by an admin.
*I've merged the histories, and notified Cyclonenim of the mistake. '''[[User:seresin|seresin]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Seresin|¡?]]&nbsp;)&nbsp;''' 22:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
== [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] ==

{{Resolved|Editor advised to take objections re sockpuppet claim to WP:SSP. Also reminded to stay civil in talk page discussions -- [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 23:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)}}
[[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] is evidently trying to engage in hostile suppressing of my role in WP by repeatedly filing irrelevant and offensive appeals against me, all the while demonstrating indignant non-compliance with a recommendation to build a consensual approach to solving a dispute on sources on [[Nagorno-Karabakh]] here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh#Consensus]. In the first instance of such appeal, it was ruled no connection between me and the various other users that [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] tried to associate myself with in order to remove my participation (see here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Erkusukes]). Please encourage or force [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] to assume good faith and engage in the proposed dialogue in order to build consensus regarding conflicting points of view. So far, by replaying by offensive and irrelevant remarks, he sabotaged the consensus-building measure, and when he failed, he resorts to other tricks, such as this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Capasitor]. [[Wikipedia:BATTLEGROUND|Wiki is not a battleground]] and [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] does not seem to comply with that at all. [[User:Capasitor|Capasitor]] ([[User talk:Capasitor|talk]]) 18:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:Lodging a request for a sockpuppet check is not "tricks", especially as the previous request was stale (and not "ruled no connection" as you suggest above). I have no view on the actual sockpuppet claim, but note you have raised exactly the same concerns there as here. Forum-shopping is not encouraged - the appropriate place for any further comments on this isssue is at [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Capasitor]]. Lastly, as noted below the process of consensus-building at [[Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh]] would be easier if ''you'' refrained from [[WP:NPA|personal attacks]] regarding your view of other editor's ethnic backgrounds. [[User:Euryalus|Euryalus]] ([[User talk:Euryalus|talk]]) 23:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
== Possible suicide statement. ==

{{resolved|Authorities contacted, no interest shown, but that's their prerogative. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 06:38, 18 January 2009 (UTC)}}

Please check:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&action=edit&section=58

"''Considering the nature of my question, consulting a doctor would be... undesirable. Once again, Wikipedia proves itself to be full of cancer. If I thought it was important enough to find a doctor to talk about this, I would have done just that. I'm asking for a simple answer to a simple question. I could be mistaken, but I believe general toxicity dosages are available for other substances. Whatever, though. I'm not going to piss around with this with you. Hopefully it won't matter tomorrow. 71.115.157.126 (talk) 02:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)''"

...I'm worried.  Per WP:RD guidelines, a question about the lethal dose of a specific substance was considered to be a question of a medical nature (which the Reference Desk will not answer).   The above reply came back from the original poster - and I'm concerned. Per WP:SUICIDE, I added the appropriate template and am now reporting the matter here in the hope that an admin can take the necessary action.  [[User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker|talk]]) 03:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

WHOIS says the IP address is a Verizon address - could probably be anyplace in the USA.  [[User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker|talk]]) 03:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:Not sure if it's worth taking action on, but pool-71-115-157-126.gdrpmi.dsl-w.verizon.net would be in Grand Rapids, Michigan.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 04:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::That's pretty thinly veiled suicidal speech. Per [[WP:SUICIDE]] I think it's appropriate to notify the local police in Grand Rapids. While it's not directly applicable to threats of self-harm at this point, several users and myself have been working on a form letter for contacting law enforcement agencies in TOV situations- you can view it [[User:Mendaliv/TOV letter|here]] if you want. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 07:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I did exactly that last night after [[User:Kww]] narrowed down the IP to Grand Rapids.  The Grand Rapids police were monumentally uninterested in the matter: "Without a name and/or address we can do nothing."  I suggested contacting Verizon and getting the person's whereabouts from the IP address - but I doubt very much they did that.  I suspect nothing at all happened as a result of my call. [[User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] ([[User talk:SteveBaker|talk]]) 06:34, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::::That sucks, but is kind of unsurprising. In any case, it's good that the contact was made because it's no longer our responsibility if something bad ''does'' happen. We've done all we can do. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 06:38, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

If it's any consolation, many times more people attempt suicide half-heartedly than succeed at it, and many times more people than that have a curiosity in it that doesn't end up leading to anything.  --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;">'''Cyde Weys'''</span>]] 00:34, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:Just noticed this, so my apologizes for chiming in late, but a [http://www.trustedsource.org/en/feedback/query?sid=&p=&q=71.115.157.126+ TrustedSource] search shows this IP is in Muskegon, Michigan not Grand Rapids. - <small style="border:1px solid #990000;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#990000;background:#FFFFFF;">NeutralHomer</span>]] • [[User_talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#000000;background:#FFFFFF;">Talk</span>]] • January 19, 2009 @ 00:40</small>

== Poll coming on Admin Recall (aka RFDA) ==

The larger discussion seems to be at [[WT:RFA#EVula's ideal RfA process]] and following; Hersfold also has a proposal at [[User:Hersfold/Admin_recall]].  My concern is that the admins I've asked think that the first proposal may have a very unhelpful chilling effect (and some say "Over my retired body").  There seems to be support for a straw poll; I've asked for inclusion of an option in the poll, "RFDA only for people whose RFA starts after this proposal is adopted".  I'm bringing this up here because I don't think the 3 different groups (do nothing, RFDA for all admins, RFDA for future admins) "play well" together; we'll probably do best if people who see things the same way talk among themselves ... hopefully before the straw poll, and certainly during.  My proposal (RFDA for future admins only) is at [[User_talk:Hersfold/Admin_recall#Yes and no]], and my replies in the threads at [[WT:RFA]] are summarized at [[User talk:Dank55/Admins]]. - Dan [[User:Dank55|Dank55]] ([[User talk:Dank55|send/receive]]) 22:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

: I find it very hard to understand why it should matter when someone becomes an admin.  The idea that recall is appropriate for new ones but not old ones sounds rather as if the old ones in question think they have some sort of right to magical bits. [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 22:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::Agreed that there's a problem of unfairness, and I'm not even "in favor" of my option, I just think it needs to be on the table for comparison.  It shouldn't be difficult for the people who have been blocked and had their stuff deleted by an admin to look through an admin's deletion and block log and organize a posse to go through every single contribution of the admin, looking for flaws. We can hope, of course, that angry people will be obvious and clumsy, but that's not a given; they may have friends and socks show up at RfDA who have no apparent connection to the admin, who do a good job of coming off as "concerned wiki-citizens". If RFDA is a vote, we're in trouble.  If admins start losing the mop, and other admins get the impression that the RfDA was not entirely fair, that's going to have a strong chilling effect on admins.  People who gain the mop after this proposal happens will be able to look at how the RFDA process is playing out, and adjust their actions accordingly. - Dan [[User:Dank55|Dank55]] ([[User talk:Dank55|send/receive]]) 22:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:::We've been here countless times. There's never going to be a consensus here. It's a perenial suggestion that looks obvious at fist glance and falls apart on examination. I'm opposed to it for a variety of reasons, but slightly tired of the discussion too.--[[User:Scott MacDonald|Scott Mac (Doc)]] 00:33, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

::::There's never going to be a consensus because almost no admins would be willing to sign off on something that means they might lose their power. [[User:Jtrainor|Jtrainor]] ([[User talk:Jtrainor|talk]]) 02:29, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::[[WP:AGF]] please?  Maybe the reason admins won't support this is because it'll open up the opportunity for harassment and huge amounts of wasted time.  Many admin actions such as deleting pages and blocking are likely to piss people off and nobody wants to have to defend themselves from regular RfDA proceedings.  Also, I'd submit that there are likely no admins which could receive 75% desysop support from other admins (as required by the link above).  If someone should that obviously be desysopped, that's what ArbCom is for.  This whole thing will be a giant waste of time. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 02:33, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::You never watched Star Wars Episode III? Granted, ol' Palps was the bad guy, but he still had a point. And I don't think it's a concept original to the film. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 12:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:Before anyone gets all bent out of shape over "Argh, another recall proposal," please give us a chance. You'll notice that both of these proposals are being started by administrators, and in fact the proposal in my userspace was started off of a discussion in the #wikipedia-en-admins IRC channel by several different administrators, not just myself. We are aware of the concerns raised at previous proposals, and are attempting to address these in the proposal. This is a Wiki, after all, and things can and probably will change. As I'll explain when the cleanup of the draft is finished, I believe this is an important thing for us to look into and consider, and it's not because I believe administrators are abusing their rights. Just hang on a little longer, and try to dispel any preconceptions you may have, because we are still working on things and this will be open to community input soon. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 04:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

How about we focus on dealing with long-inactive admins before trying to get rid of active ones first?  We have hundreds of admins on the books that haven't edited in years.  I don't really understand why the status quo at Wikipedia is to not deal with this problem, as most other sites do not have such a lax take on things as we do.  Yes, it is a security problem.  --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;">'''Cyde Weys'''</span>]] 00:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== Disturbing edits ==

As his first contributions, {{Userlinks|Gimme46}} is claiming that [[:File:That's Where You Take Me.jpg]] is "is a fake" which he "made and put on internet", and tried to nominate the image for deletion at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/That's Where You Take Me.jpg]].  The assistance of editors more familiar with this subject matter is requested in verifying the image, to determine what administrative action is necessary. [[User:Kristen Eriksen|'''<span style="color:#FF7700;">The</span> <span style="color:#FF4400;">Nordic</span> <span style="color:red;">Goddess</span> <span style="color:#FF0066;">Kristen</span>''']] [[User talk:Kristen Eriksen|<sup style="color:#FF0099;">Worship her</sup>]] 04:19, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:Based on a [http://images.google.com/images?q=%22That%27s%20Where%20You%20Take%20Me%22 Google search], I'd say that it isn't the real cover. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 04:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks, but it may not be that simple.  The image appearing in most of those results is [[:File:Britney Britney Album Cover.PNG]], which is the cover for the album "[[Britney (album)|Britney]]", in which the song is included.  But [[:File:That's Where You Take Me.jpg]] is allegedly the cover for the single version of [[That's Where You Take Me]], and was uploaded by the established contributor {{User|Avram44}}, claiming that the image "Was sent to me by a Philippenian who owns the cd." [[User:Kristen Eriksen|'''<span style="color:#FF7700;">The</span> <span style="color:#FF4400;">Nordic</span> <span style="color:red;">Goddess</span> <span style="color:#FF0066;">Kristen</span>''']] [[User talk:Kristen Eriksen|<sup style="color:#FF0099;">Worship her</sup>]] 05:06, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::That image is creepy, it looks like something out of [[The Ring]]. I can't imagine that being the actual thing. [[User:Zazaban|Zazaban]] ([[User talk:Zazaban|talk]]) 06:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
I put a speedy delete tag on it, but have removed it. IMO, it has to be a [[black market]] cover using Spears publicity photos, but likely the CD inside is just a burned [[CD-R]]. We should get Avram's opinion on this before deleting perhaps. <span style="font-family:Myriad Web;">'''[[User:Mrschimpf|<span style="color:maroon">Nate</span>]]''' <span style="color:dark blue">•</span> <small>''([[User_talk:Mrschimpf|<span style="color:dodgerblue">chatter</span>]])''</small></span> 08:31, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:The more specific Google image search [http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%22that%27s+where+you+take+me%22+single+philippines <code>["that's where you take me" single philippines</code><nowiki>]</nowiki>] returns this image twice: once on Wikipedia and once on a [http://allbrit.kazeo.com/?page=rubrique&idr=126277 blogspot]. Compared to the other CD covers there, it is of totally inferior quality, possibly a copy of the Wikipedia image (which predates the blog posting). I also found a copy [http://onlybritney.e-fans.net/britney/britneys.html here], and [http://thebillboardfiles.blogspot.com/ here] in a blog posting dated 18 January 2009(!), possibly triggered by the AfD or ANI discussion. If this was for real, you'd expect more hits, with images of higher quality. I can't find any reliable evidence that is obviously independent of Wikipedia of this song being released as a single. The statements to this effect on Wikipedia (also at [[Britney (album)]]) were added by Avram without references. Compare this to the Google image search for [http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=anticipating+single+britney [<code>anticipating single britney</code><nowiki>]</nowiki>], which does produce several high-quality hits for the cover of [[Anticipating]], including one on Amazon. So is it possible, as this cursory investigation would suggest, that no such single exists? [[Special:Contributions/199.3.224.3|199.3.224.3]] ([[User talk:199.3.224.3|talk]]) 01:45, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== Possible sock-puppet ==

{{resolved}} Checkuser confirmed no relation. <font face="cursive">'''[[User:IMatthew|<span style="color:#007BA7">iMatthew</span>]] // [[User talk:IMatthew|<span style="color:#960018">talk</span>]]''' // </span></font> 12:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

''See above sections on [[User:Kalajan]]''

{{User4|Kalajan}}

{{User4|KingOreo}}

This user has only one edit seen by his contributions. Kalajan is blocked, and I would not be surprised if this is him trying to come back. His only edit is to [[User talk:SimonKSK]] and he asked him to "help him out" noting that Simon has adopted Kalajan. This is very likely to be Kalajan, I'd say. <font face="cursive">'''[[User:IMatthew|<span style="color:#007BA7">iMatthew</span>]] // [[User talk:IMatthew|<span style="color:#960018">talk</span>]]''' // </span></font> 22:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:Yeah, I saw that. I am suspicous, but I decided to let it go. But, if it is Kalajan, I would not be shocked. '''<small>[[User:SimonKSK|<font color="black">Simon</font>]] \\ [[User talk:SimonKSK|<font color="DarkCyan">KSK</font>]]</small> <sup>[[Barack Obama 2009 presidential inauguration|Yes we can!]]</sup>''' 23:49, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

::My guess is that it is. Seems like we need to block KingOreo, and upgrade Kalajan's block to indef. [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 08:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

{{unrelated}} --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] <small>[[User talk:Deskana|(talk)]]</small> 12:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== Link violates  WP:ELNO ==

This link is on [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_style#Special_Application this article]] and goes to the Beer Judge Certification Program. This group (also called BJCP) trains volunteers to serve as judges in amateur brewing competitions. Their website includes [[http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/catdex.php the "2008 BJCP Style Guidelines"]]. These "style guidelines" are, in fact, competition guidelines and not a guide to real-world beer styles. It violates this provision of [[WP:ELNO]] "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research." To understand the difference, imagine a music teacher who gives his pupils sheet music labeled "Beethoven". This sheet music, in fact, contains excepts from various Beethoven works along with bridging material written by the teacher to connect the pieces. In both cases (BJCP and Beethoven), the material is misleading because it gives the reader the impression that the material is actually something that it is not (the BJCP often uses, for example, the names of real beer styles, but the style descriptions are simplifications or otherwise inaccurate representations of the actual style). The "Introduction" section on the BJCP page I linked will provide some confirmation for what I have written. A much more detailed confirmation can be found 
[[http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2008/08/goethean-troll.html?showComment=1219083600000#c330659496732463376 here]]. I have been in contact with the writer of this confirmation, an official of the BJCP and he confirms what I have written above is accurate. His email address is shown at the bottom and can also be used to confirm this. [[Special:Contributions/80.126.66.106|80.126.66.106]] ([[User talk:80.126.66.106|talk]]) 11:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:You know, you are allowed to improve articles.  In fact, [[WP:BOLD|you are encouraged to do so]].  Have you tried to remove the link yourself?  I am unclear on what admins are needed for here... --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 13:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::The page is semi-protected, that's why a request was probably made here. I'd suggest you take this on the article's [[Talk:Beer style|talk page]]. An involved user would certainly look into it. <sup>''[[Special:Contributions/LeaveSleaves|<span style="color:#00009C">Leave</span>]]''</sup>'''[[User:LeaveSleaves|<span style="color:#00009C">Sleaves</span>]]''' 13:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:::There are several problems, which is why I posted here. First, many of the contributors to the beer articles are themselves associated with this organisation and will not believe what I have written above (which is why I offered confirmation from the organisation). Secondly, this issue was discussed and settled in August, but one of the people connected with the BJCP reopened the discussion in November and nothing has been accomplished since then. It is my impression that this is a policy issue (which is why I posted it here). So, if some other editors refuse to follow policy, what other choice do I have? [[Special:Contributions/80.126.66.106|80.126.66.106]] ([[User talk:80.126.66.106|talk]]) 14:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I've responded to this editor at his talk page, my message is copied here:  As for this particular link, I don't have a big problem with having it in the article, as long as the link description makes it clear what the link is for.  It could provide readers with a good illustration of how Beer style is used and measured in a highly standardized context.  Of course, it would be better for this information to be converted to prose (ie, something in the main text of the article saying, "For example, in the 2008 BCJS competition, color was rated in terms of ______, bla bla bla" with footnote pointing to that page; this, I think, would be better than just having an EL as it currently is.... but I don't think that means the EL needs to be removed. [[User:Politizer|Politizer]]&nbsp;<small><sup>[[User talk:Politizer|talk]]</sup></small>/<small><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Politizer|contribs]]</sub></small> 16:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== Block evasion ==

Looks like [[User:Everyme|Everyme]] is back at it with {{userlinks|78.34.129.171}}. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>11</sup></font></b>]]''' 17:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== Request for outside administrative eyes ==

I would like to submit an administrative decision of mine for review. I blocked {{user|TimBolen}} indefinitely for what I judged to be violations of [[WP:BLP]]. As background, this individual self-identifies as a legal antagonist of [[Stephen Barrett]] and his edits raised concerns in my mind of [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] and [[WP:BATTLE|importation of external disputes]], contributing to my decision. This individual has taken issue with my decision at [[User Talk:TimBolen]]. Therefore, I invite review of the block. If any admin wishes to reverse the block, or if there is a consensus among non-admins that it should be reversed, I have no objection. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 08:39, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:If he's actually Tim Bolen (the elusive alleged provocateur of Stephen Barrett's several defamation suits), he certainly shouldn't be editing making BLP comments about Barrett. If he's not, he's a troll. Block is proper. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 08:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:Seems to be both properly made, and respectfully explained subsequently. I would note that it appears that the editor is violating [[WP:NLT]] despite averring they are not, and from the easy recourse to legalism I am inclined to believe that the individual is the party concerned with the legal proceedings referred to. I support MastCells actions in this matter. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 13:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

::I also concur with Mastcell's actions.  I am also concern with [[WP:NLT]] and the reference to use councel.  From the writing, it does look to be [[User:Tim Bolen]] from his previous comments he has made.  Good block, --[[User:Crohnie|<span style="color:purpled">'''Crohnie'''</span><span style="color:deeppink">'''Gal'''</span>]][[User talk:Crohnie|<span style="color:deepskyblue"><sup>Talk</sup></span>]] 14:34, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:::Agreed - the repeated references where he suggests MastCell "consult with his legal counsel" demands an NLT block right off, to me. That's legal bluster, no matter how much he says it's not a legal threat, and should not be tolerated. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]]</small> 19:17, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
* Good work, MastCell.  <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 20:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
* Support. Reading his talk page, I felt pretty sure that this editor's interests do not really coincide with ours.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 18:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== Can somebody undelete [[Talk:Whitehall Street–South Ferry (New York City Subway)]]? ==

{{resolved}}
It's nothing urgent, but the deleter seems to have ignored my request. Thank you. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 06:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

:It seems, according to [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 January 7]], that the contents of this orphaned talk page were already undeleted and merged into [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation]], where they can now be found at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Archive 11#Inserted missing discussion from deleted talk page.]]. Is any further action needed now? —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 07:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::I can't seem to find the history for that discussion undeleted anywhere, though. It seems the content was just cut and pasted, so the page history needs to be undeleted if the content is going to be as well. I've restored on these grounds. '''[[User:seresin|seresin]]&nbsp;(&nbsp;[[User talk:Seresin|¡?]]&nbsp;)&nbsp;''' 07:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Since it was likely just going to get G8 deleted again by someone who didn't look at the logs, I did the history merge with the archive page where the discussion is now stored. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 17:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== Unsourced statements in [[WP:BLP|BLP]]s ==

So, we have a list of [[WP:BLP|biographies of living persons]] that contain unsourced statements available '''[[Wikipedia:Database reports/Biographies of living persons containing unsourced statements|here]]'''.

Here are the questions that are stopping me from going through the list:
# Do we remove ''all'' unsourced material regardless of whether it's negative?
# If we remove the material, do we put it on the talk page for others to examine or do we simply leave it in the page history? Or do we just comment it out using HTML comments (&lt;!-- --&gt;)?

Thoughts? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 08:04, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

*I'll go with option one; doesn't matter if it is positive or negative. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 08:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

*This isn't really an admin-specific function, so you might want to visit [[WP:BLP/N]]. Zscout370 is correct. [[WP:BLP]] says "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." I think commenting it out is fine; it's perhaps polite, and allows future editors to actually take the time to get it right. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 08:19, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::It also makes it easier for them to put it back without finding sources. It also keeps potentially libelous material available in the API, the database dumps, mirror and fork sites, and the internal search in a manner that it appears to still be part of the current version of the article. If we don't have the time to see whether it is verifiable and/or true, we shouldn't be leaving it where it is still highly visible and easy to disseminate. To some extent it all depends on whether we want people to believe that we actually care their feelings, or to only believe that we want them to believe that. Speaking for myself I don't believe any of it. If the out-of-sight out-of-mind approach works for us we might as well just hide it with CSS. That wouldn't be much less effective. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 12:04, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

*It should be noted that (as far as I can tell) not all of this is covered by BLP, for instance something like:
*:Doe sold his land to the Bronx Bridge Company,<sup>[1]</sup> which began carrying subway trains in 2005.{{fact}}
*In this case, the part about Doe is sourced; what's not sourced is a related statement included for context. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 11:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
*Doesn't matter if it's positive or negative, but it does matter if it's contentious or not.  The [[WP:BLP]] remark refers specifically to "unsourced or poorly source '''contentious''' material".  It is not license to start gutting all unsourced material from all BLPs.  If it's not contentious, then it should get the usual fact tag and reasonable delay.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 17:26, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
**Yes, that's right.  The community have repeatedly considered and rejected (although not without dissent, including [to at least some degree] from Jimbo) the proposition that statements that are unsourced but (by any measure) uncontroversial be removed from BLPs simply because they are unsourced (or, at the very least, that unsourced but uncontroversial statements in BLPs are to be treated in the same fashion as are such statements in non-BLPs; there are some who argue that [[WP:V]] means that if a statement cannot be verified by the reader in a source to which a citation [the strictest would require an inline citation] is given, that statement is to be removed straightaway, but there does not exist a consensus for that construction); the broadest discussions were here and at [[WP:AN/I|AN/I]] in the wake of [[User:CyberAnth|CyberAnth]]'s removing broad sections of unsourced but uncontroversial material from BLPs (see, e.g., [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hank_Aaron&diff=103733503&oldid=103563146 here], removing a paragraph about [[Hank Aaron]]'s having been elected to the [[National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum]] because it lacked a specific source), but follow-ups have occurred, including in the context of the more restrictive BLP schema toward which we have (one regrets to observe) moved over the nearly two years since the CA affair, under which the categorical, almost reflexive, excision of unsourced but uncontroversial material continues to be disfavored (I would imagine, in fact, that the community would still regard such editing on a grand scale as [[WP:POINT|POINT]]ily disruptive).  [[User:Jahiegel|Joe]] 19:56, 18 January 2009 (UTC) 
If different people see the same {{fact}} tag, some of them are going to remove the preceding sentence or clause, others will cut an entire paragraph. Beware of greedy pattern-matching. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 11:42, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

*Use your head.  Don't be a dick.  BLP isn't a license to kill.  This isn't rocket surgery people. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 20:10, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::"Rocket surgery", huh? :) [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 20:23, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Olde joak [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rocket%20surgery]. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 20:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

What about the idea of moving the content to the talk page? It keeps it out of the articles altogether, but still allows people to work with the info if they wish to. Thoughts? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 23:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:If the material is fairly neutral, fine. But a libel on a talk page is still a libel.--[[User:Scott MacDonald|Scott Mac (Doc)]] 23:14, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:Yeah, BLP applies to talk pages. From your comments, it seems that you're planning some sort of automated sweep. Don't. See also Jon's comment above. [[User:Cool Hand Luke|Cool Hand]] ''[[User talk:Cool Hand Luke|Luke]]'' 23:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:And please remember, [[WP:BLP]] does '''not''' sanction the removal of all unsourced statements, but '''only''' those which are ''contentious''.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 23:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Just to get this out of the way: No one is planning to automatically remove unsourced statements from BLPs, right? --[[User:Conti|Conti]]|[[User talk:Conti|✉]] 23:58, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) No intention of doing anything in an automated way; as CharlotteWebb pointed out, it's too difficult to know whether to grab a sentence, a word, or a paragraph. (Though some sort of Twinkle-type script to move content to the talk page after selecting it would be heavenly...).

I think examples here might help, so I pulled quotes from random [[WP:BLP|BLP]]s from the list.

Example 1 (from [[Alan Bean]])
<blockquote>
As a painter, Bean wanted to add color to the moon. "I had to figure out a way to add color to the moon without ruining it," he remarked. If you look at his paintings, you will see the lunar landscape is not a monotonous gray, but shades of various colors. "If I were a scientist painting the moon, I would paint it gray. I'm an artist, so I can add colors to the moon." says Bean.{{Fact|date=December 2007}}
</blockquote>

Example 2 (from [[Jeremy Paxman]])
<blockquote>
In 2004 Paxman raised the subject again with Howard, by then leader of the [[Conservative Party (UK)|Conservative Party]]. This time, Howard laughed it off, saying that he had not threatened to overrule the head of the Prison Service. {{Fact|date=March 2008}}
</blockquote>

Example 3 (from [[Lisa Kudrow]])
<blockquote>
Briefly, Kudrow joined with [[Conan O'Brien]] and director [[Tim Hillman]] in the short-lived [[Improvisational theatre|improv]] troupe [[Unexpected Company]].{{Fact|date=January 2009}} She was also the only regular female member of the Transformers Comedy Troupe.{{Fact|date=January 2009}} She played a role in an episode of the [[NBC]] [[sitcom]] ''[[Cheers]]''. She tried out for ''[[Saturday Night Live]]'' in 1990, but the show chose [[Julia Sweeney]] instead.{{Fact|date=January 2009}}
</blockquote>

Personally, I lean toward wanting to remove all unsourced statements (and frankly I completely disagree with Tb's interpretation that it only applies to contentious material). However, before I start going through these, I think gauging some type of consensus is a good idea. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 00:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

* I'd lean towards removing pretty much everything that's unsourced unless it's either ''very clearly'' uncontentious, or sourcing it would be risible - e.g. X is an actor<nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki>.  What you or I might consider uncontroversial might not be the case for the subject of the BLP.  We have had OTRS tickets in the past for the most trivial of details, and the subjects are right to expect that everything in their article is relevant and tightly sourced. [[User talk:Black Kite|<b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b>]] 00:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
** If a subject objects to something they can say so. The vast majority of the time unsourced info that appears non-contentious is non-contentious. There's no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 00:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
*** On many articles I would agree with you. On BLPs I would err towards caution. Sometimes it's impossible to distinguish between baby and bathwater. And are you suggesting that subjects need to check their own articles every day to ensure they're still OK? [[User talk:Black Kite|<b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b>]] 00:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
** That's (Black Kite's) a nice proposal for [[WP:BLP]], but it's not what the policy says.  The policy says to remove whatever is contentious and unsourced, not to remove whatever is not "very clearly uncontentious" and unsourced.  But, of course, if the subject of the BLP has objected--then it is contentious, without doubt.  That's not the case in any of the three examples here.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 00:25, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

:Likewise, I'm tending to remove unsourced "personal/family" information of ''any'' kind on sight, along with all unsourced career content which could even hint at controversy or be taken as unflattering in the slightest way. However, this is only when I stumble upon it, I don't hunt down unsourced BLPs. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 00:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

:(e/c reply to MzMcBride) My parsing of the key sentence makes the following equivalent to my understanding of it: "Material about living persons that is either unsourced or which is poorly sourced and contentious should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, regardless of whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable"; (I consider the original sentence to be poorly worded and ambiguous.) However, I know that this can cause upset amongst other editors. So, if the material is potentially libellous or highly critical, I remove it (i.e., delete it), in other cases, I merely transfer it to the talk pages and ask that it be verified. If it is, it can be struck out and transferred back to the article page proper. I might add that I have mainly done this with additions to "Notable Residents" or "Notable Persons" sections in articles about settlements. [[User:ddstretch|<span style="border:1px solid DarkGreen; padding:1px;"><span style="color:White; background:DarkGreen; font-size:x-small;">&nbsp;DDStretch&nbsp;</span></span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:ddstretch|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-size:x-small;">(talk)</span>]] 00:22, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

: My "interpretation" is the explicit language of [[WP:BLP]]: ''Remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced''.  It's not as if I made it up; it's the existing policy, and attempts to change that have not succeeded.  The worry here is that you are about to engage on a big campaign, to "clean up" something which doesn't need cleaning.  Let's take your examples.  Number (1) is not contentious.  It is a quotation, and it should certainly be sourced.  But there is no reason to remove it immediately.  It is not as if it is some embarassing thing he's supposedly saying.  It's simply not contentious.  Your time should be spend ''locating the source''. Number (2) is more interesting.  The doubt is not about whether Howard dodged Paxman's questions--that's already perfectly clear--but about whether Howard actually answered it saying that he had not overruled Lewis.  If this is contentious, it would be so about ''Howard'', not Paxman.  But to establish that it's contentious, we'd need someone in good faith doubting it, and the mere existence of a <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> tag does not establish that.  Neither [[Talk:Jeremy Paxman]] nor [[Talk:Michael Howard]] show any indication of contentiousness, and [[WP:BLP]] only sanctions immediate removal of contentious info.  So what you should do, if you want to improve these articles, is to contact the person who put the <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> tag there and ask their motives: were they just saying that a citation there would be nice, or do they think there is some doubt about the veracity of the statement?  For number (3), again, note than there is no trace of discussion on the talk page, and there is no contention about any of these.  We simply have a fact tag--nothing else--and it's '''contention''' that licenses immediate removal.  Now, if you want to guage consensus, this is the ''wrong forum''.  You should pop over to [[WP Talk:BLP]] and propose removing "contentious" from the policy.  The problem, of course, is that this would mean that ''literally every single assertion'' would need to be sourced, and that's ludicrous.  Judgment must apply. You seem to be sayning that if there is a fact tag, it must be doubtful, but that's not true at all.  There are many reasons for putting a fact tag in, and doubtfulness is only one of them.  If you have no actual doubt about the statement, and there is no indication of contentiousness, you have no business removing it under the summary [[WP:BLP]] policy.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 00:25, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

* '''two comments'''. First, the place to ask for interpretation of [[WP:BLP]] is on its talk page, not here. Second, our goal should be to improve the encyclopedia.  It would be far more valuable, when running into such statements, to spend some energy ''trying to verify them'' rather than just removing them and moving on.  If you said that you were going to go through the list and do some leg-work, google-work, and library-work to try and track down sources, and then remove those for which you had been unable to do so, that would be a fine thing.  But instead it just sounds like you want to remove stuff, which is not contentious, which is not libelous even potentially, which is harmful to nobody, and for which you have no particular reason to suspect harm. In that case, can I convince you to instead adopt the goal of improving the articles by '''adding sources''' as your first priority, rather than '''removing material'''?  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 00:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
** We have an obligation to get things right. That means checking information to ensure its accuracy and not including unsourced statements. I agree that simply deleting everything that is unsourced is a heavy-handed approach, however I'm proposing alternatives (commenting out the statements or moving them to the talk page) and looking for alternatives. The reality is, however, that people who add the statements are the ones with the burden to cite the information (just as new article creators must establish notability). --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 01:20, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
*** The analogy is a good one.  New article creators do *not* have to "establish notability", it's the opposite: people seeking to delete articles must raise an issue, and only '''then''' do article creators have to establish notability.  Even the barest claim of notability is sufficient to avoid speedy-deletion.  If someone raises an issue, contending that an unsourced statement is incorrect or otherwise problematic, '''then''' it can be deleted.  The alternative you don't seem to be willing to consider is to spend effort trying to track down sources, and only removing statements if a good faith effort fails.  And then, what I hope you'd do, is to explain where you looked on the talk page with an explanation.  What I'm worried about is a mass deletion of material, accompanied by terse edit histories, and no real attempt on your part to distinguish case from case or bother tracking down any sources at all.  What's really dangerous here is that, under your proposed methodology, someone could add "fact" tags to jillions of entirely uncontroversial and well-known statements, and then delete them, and appeal to your actions as a precedent.  You are quite right to view the fact tags as indications of necessary improvements, but you do not seem to be asking the question, "How can I most effectively improve this article?"  We should all be asking '''that question''' and not questions like, "how can I most effectively delete the most unsourced material from articles?"  I want you to delete the unsourced stuff '''only when it's the right thing for that particular article''', which I think involves at least a good faith effort to find a source in google or, failing that, a library.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 01:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
*I would like to strongly urge care here.  Many people place <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> templates carelessly.  For example, in an academic context it is acceptable to have a footnote apply to more than one sentence.  Some overvealous template-placers think that convention shouldn't apply to Wikipedia.  They are wrong, and such sentences should not be removed just because someone has placed a tag without paying attention to the relationship between article and source. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 01:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
**I agree completely.  It is this kind of thing--that fact tags can mean many different things--that I am worried about the proposal here.  For example, before removing unsourced material, one should make sure that the existing sources do not actually already discuss it.  That might require--shock!--an actual trip to the library, but that's the price of writing an encyclopedia.  [[User:Tb|Tb]] ([[User talk:Tb|talk]]) 01:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
***You're right that fact tags can mean many different things.  But actually, I'm primarily talking about places where the context makes clear what the source of a statement is, but the tagger has misunderstood (so no trip to the library would be needed, just more careful reading). [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 03:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

This is about BLPs with some unsourced statements. What do we do with the thousands of ''completely unsourced'' BLPs though? I am currently tagging all of them (well, those I can find), and I am at almost 5,000 ones now and suspect that I will end with between 15,000 and 30,000 ones (unless people start cleaning up after me very fast, which would be great). I try to be very conservative in my tagging, even one external link excludes most pages from this list. Most of the pages are not contentious, some are very contentious (criminals, porn stars, ...) You can find the current list at [[:Category:Unreferenced BLPs]] and its subpages (starting in August 2006!). [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 11:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:I personally had to delete four articles from that above category (two were a copyvio, two were unsourced oprhans). I think that if we have an article on a BLP, tagged with no sources and it has been like that for two years, I really think a deletion (without bias to recreation) could be an option. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 11:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

== Am I being a bit thick...? ==

Whilst doing a bit of sock blocking and tagging, I clicked edit on [[User:MHLU|this editor's]] talk page, and got [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MHLU&action=edit this]. My question is how did the stuff above the edit box get there? <sub>[[User:Gb|Gb]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Gb|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Gb|c]]</sup> 17:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:It's annoying isn't it? Tons of users have them now. I'm sick of them already. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] <small>[[User talk:Deskana|(talk)]]</small> 17:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::Have never noticed it before - what are they and when did they get introduced? <sub>[[User:Gb|Gb]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Gb|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Gb|c]]</sup> 17:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I first noticed it on [[WP:RFAR]], then I think it was on [[User:Roux]]'s talk page. I've got no idea how people make them, but personally I'd like to see them stop it. I don't need some pointless notices taking up the top of my edit page. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] <small>[[User talk:Deskana|(talk)]]</small> 17:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
[[Wikipedia:Editnotice]] --[[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 17:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:Aaah - now I know where to look when deleting a blocked user's, than. Thanks! <sub>[[User:Gb|Gb]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Gb|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Gb|c]]</sup> 17:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::On a related issue, I tried to get somewhere with [[WP:VPT#Editnotice]] a few days ago; no luck, so now I'm trying [[WT:PROTECT#Editnotice]]. - Dan [[User:Dank55|Dank55]] ([[User talk:Dank55|send/receive]]) 18:22, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
That should be used sparely and be admin only. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 19:53, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:I have an edit notice on my talk page, and I happen to find them very useful on other editors' talk pages, as well. &ndash;[[User:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]] [[User talk:Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''T'''ropical</sup>]] [[Special:contributions/Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''C'''yclone</sup>]] 19:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::I agree.  But for the same reason that we have rules about what kinds of signatures are allowed, and what ones are too disruptive, I think that we need rules about edit notices, at least to a degree.  &mdash; [[User:Jake Wartenberg|<font color="#21421E" face="Harrington">Jake</font>]] [[User_talk:Jake_Wartenberg|<font color="#21421E" face="Harrington">Wartenberg</font>]] 20:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== More Block Evasion? ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Smashville&diff=265008949&oldid=264938894 Not entirely sure]...but...[[WP:DUCK|duck test]] seems to be quacking at me...{{User|Colts1}} was blocked a day or so ago...it's a little coincidental that this person's first edit seems to be telling me he is not Colts1. I was going to block straight up, but thought I'd get some opinions before I did it. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 17:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:Quack. <sub>[[User:Gb|Gb]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Gb|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Gb|c]]</sup> 17:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::I wouldn't be so sure.  <s>Their writing styles look different,</s> and besides, Colts2 hasn't done anything harmful (asking a stupid question isn't a blockable offense.  He's probably just 12 or something).  ...if he starts acting up you could always block him quickly.  From what I've seen, there's no clear evidence (without having done a checkuser or anything...which would be a little over the top at this point) that Colts2 isn't just another random idiot. [[User:Politizer|Politizer]]&nbsp;<small><sup>[[User talk:Politizer|talk]]</sup></small>/<small><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Politizer|contribs]]</sub></small> 18:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Who happened to register 4 hours after Colts1 was blocked and make his only edits to the page of the admin who protected Colts1's talk page? --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 18:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::::It would be a strange coincidence, but I've occasionally gotten weird random messages, too...I just don't think a weird coincidence should be grounds for blocking an account who hasn't done anything harmful yet, especially given that if this is the same person then he/she will probably show his/her true colors soon enough.
::::That being said, I have looked more closely now at Colts1's contribs and they do seem to have a very similar style, so I strike what I said about that earlier, and you're probably right about them being the same.  I just wanted to say that, in general (ie, in other situations), I don't know if we should be hasty to block otherwise harmless users based on possibly coincidental similarities with blocked users. [[User:Politizer|Politizer]]&nbsp;<small><sup>[[User talk:Politizer|talk]]</sup></small>/<small><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Politizer|contribs]]</sub></small> 19:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::I believe by his unblock he may have accidentally unveiled the sockmaster: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Colts2&diff=265151784&oldid=265115034]--[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 21:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

If that is true, I suggest you see [[User_talk:Sinofdreams#Disruption_using_sockpuppets]] for more socks. [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 21:11, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:I think that solves our puzzle. Sinofdreams blocked for abusive sockpuppetry...it's quite obvious he is using multiple accounts for abusive purposes. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 21:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== [[User:Dylan620]] ==

{{User6|Dylan620}}<br/>
My fellow administrators, there are grave concerns with this editor from many users. There are several issues that have come up recently on this user's time at Wikipedia:

#[[WP:MYSPACE|MySpacey]] use of Wikipedia as per  [http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/ec/Dylan620 this edit counter].
#Consistent posting on people's talk pages about different things about them personally. This includes cookies, awards, positive templates, etc. Some people can percieve this as annoying as this does not help build an encyclopedia. A lot of these have come on [[User talk:Juliancolton]], which has been the main source of the problem (No offence to Julian).
#Ill-informed support of community bans as shown for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=264360202 MartinPhi's ban discussion]
#Ill-informed commentary in general, merely parroting what others have said ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Roux&diff=prev&oldid=261279278 roux's RFA] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADylan620&diff=261361845&oldid=261351871 why it was merely parroting])
#Strange obsession with adding users to [[WP:LOBU]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:List_of_banned_users&action=history recent history]), including adding Betacommand well before the discussion had resolved in that direction [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AList_of_banned_users&diff=264560282&oldid=263949475]
#Arrogantly informing established users of things they already know, as if he is the only one who knows what's going on ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADylan620&diff=261550181&oldid=261539623] and there's probably plenty more)

Many people ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADylan620&diff=260182095&oldid=260112413 Mitchazenia], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADylan620&diff=260694671&oldid=260583887 iMatthew], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dylan620&diff=next&oldid=260708592 roux], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADylan620&diff=261688869&oldid=261592281 GlassCobra], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADylan620&diff=261559873&oldid=261550181 NuclearWarfare]) have tried to gain his attention but to no avail. His admin coach, [[User:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]], also told him to stop the admin coaching and work on the issues raised ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dylan620&diff=next&oldid=260718671]) with little effect. He tends to respond to these suggestions with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dylan620&diff=next&oldid=260942662 announcements] of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dylan620&diff=next&oldid=260983259 taking breaks] (which tend not to happen), and returning with the same behaviour.

He has recently announced yet another break using the WBE (WikiBreakEnforcer). ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Dylan620&diff=prev&oldid=264676316 Notice on User Page] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ADylan620%2Fmonobook.js&diff=264677561&oldid=264676309 addition to his monobook]). The problem is that he (sometimes) takes these breaks, and comes back without the least improvement in how he behaves. It seems as though he thinks taking a break resets everyone's memory and opinions about him, which obviously it does not.

What are your thoughts on the user at hand, and suggestion for how we can deal with him and his behavior on wiki?

Regards,
[[User:Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:red;">'''The'''</span>]][[User_talk:Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:black;"> '''Helpful'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:red;"> '''One'''</span>]] 17:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:Note, user has been made aware of this thread, at [[User_talk:Dylan620#Wikipedia:Administrators.27_noticeboard.23User:Dylan620]]. [[User:Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:red;">'''The'''</span>]][[User_talk:Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:black;"> '''Helpful'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:red;"> '''One'''</span>]] 17:17, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

::As someone who has both tried to reason with Dylan620 and helped compile these diffs, I endorse everything above. Basically what I am looking for here (and I cannot speak for anyone else) is a community-mandated temporary namespace restriction. I'd like to see Dylan restricted solely to mainspace (and mainspace talk), as well as user talk ''solely'' for discussion of articles, for a period of three months. '''Not''' including any further 'breaks' he takes. Many people have tried to talk to him, no improvement has been seen, which is why at this point the community needs to make its position clear. To be absolutely clear: I do not want to see any kind of ban or block here. I think he means well and if he shows the initiative to refocus his efforts he can be an excellent contributor. //[[User:Roux|<span style="color:#355E3B;font-size:80%;">'''roux'''</span>]] [[User talk:Roux|<span style="border:1px solid #355E3B;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">&nbsp;</span>]] 17:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)</small>
:::I have to agree with Roux that a mainspace restriction may be in order. I don't think that he should be blocked or anything, but he should be restricted to mainspace and talk-space, and if needed, answering queues on his talk page only. <font face="cursive">'''[[User:IMatthew|<span style="color:#007BA7">iMatthew</span>]] // [[User talk:IMatthew|<span style="color:#960018">talk</span>]]''' // </span></font> 17:21, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:I would agree with a namespace restriction, the strange fascination with banned users is a little worrying as well. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 17:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::Same here, being no one can stop him without one.<span style="font-family:Arial; font-size:small; color:orange;">Mitch</span><b>32</b><span style="font-family:Arial; font-size:small; color:orange;"><sup>([[User:Mitchazenia|<span style="color:orange;">Go Syracuse</span>]])</sup></span> 17:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Can Dylan620 respond to any of the above comments? Looking at [[Special:Contributions/Dylan620|his contributions]], he has enforced a WikiBreak on his account... [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 17:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:Hmm, not sure but there are ways around the wikibreak enforcer - or I could remove it from his monobook? [[User:Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:red;">'''The'''</span>]][[User_talk:Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:black;"> '''Helpful'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Thehelpfulone|<span style="color:red;"> '''One'''</span>]] 18:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::To bypass the WBE, (highlight to read) He could: <span style='color: black;background-color: black;'>turn off JavaScript in his browser preferences, or change the local system time on his machine</span>.  Cheers, [[User:Jake Wartenberg|<span style='color: lime;background-color: black;'>Jake Wartenberg</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Jake Wartenberg|<span style='color: black;background-color: lime;'>Talk</span>]]</sup> 19:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:*'''Endorse''' a mainspace restriction to last for at least a month and 200 edits, excepting edits to his talk page. A mentor that hasn't been too involved with him can come back to us for a lifting of this restriction later. [[User:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:navy;">NuclearWarfare</span>]]''''' <sub>([[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]])</sub>''''' 19:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

*Do not endorse - what the heck is this about?? Is this editor causing damage? No. Is this user violating policies? No. Is he annoying? A bit, but that's not a bannable or otherwise offence. In short, there is no real problem here, just people making a fuss over very little. '''[[User:Majorly|<span style="font-family:verdana; font-size:10pt; color:#6B8AB8">Majorly</span>]]''' [[User talk:Majorly#t|<span style="font-family:verdana; font-size:8pt; color:#6B8AB8">talk</span>]] 19:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
*Do Not Endorse - Per [[User:Majorly|Majorly]] above. - <small style="border:1px solid #990000;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#990000;background:#FFFFFF;">NeutralHomer</span>]] • [[User_talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#000000;background:#FFFFFF;">Talk</span>]] • January 17, 2009 @ 19:48</small>
*Do not endorse - Agree with Majorly. A solution to this problem could be mentorship to the editor rather than <s>banning or blocking</s> restricting him. This is more of a misguided editor than a disruptive editor. <sup>''[[Special:Contributions/LeaveSleaves|<span style="color:#00009C">Leave</span>]]''</sup>'''[[User:LeaveSleaves|<span style="color:#00009C">Sleaves</span>]]''' 19:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
**The problem is that people '''have''' tried to mentor him, for weeks and months now. But after a while, that just becomes impossible. We have restricted people for [[WP:MYSPACE|myspacing]] too much before; I just saw something at ANI just yesterday. [[User:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:navy;">NuclearWarfare</span>]]''''' <sub>([[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]])</sub>''''' 20:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
***I haven't seen any obvious case of myspacing, except of higher involvement in user namespace than article namespace. The case I assume you are referring to included much more blatant violation of WP:NOT. Plus, since when are we setting standards for quality of editing here? Okay, so he is not exactly focusing on creating and improving articles as much. But does that mean you force him to do just that? <sup>''[[Special:Contributions/LeaveSleaves|<span style="color:#00009C">Leave</span>]]''</sup>'''[[User:LeaveSleaves|<span style="color:#00009C">Sleaves</span>]]''' 20:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
*Voting so soon? But, I guess the avalanche has started so '''oppose restriction'''. A bit misguided but not disruptive. It does seem that quite a bit of time has been spent on trying to reform him but he wastes very little of others time just by himself, so just ignore him. [[User:Icewedge|Icewedge]] ([[User talk:Icewedge|talk]]) 19:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
*Do not endorse - He doesn't seem to be doing any damage, albeit he isn't helping a lot. There are bigger problems out there. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 19:59, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
*Do not endorse, mainly agreeing with Majorly. He hasn't done anything directly wrong or harmful. [[User talk:Garden|<font color=#000066>'''Garden'''</font>]]. 20:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, it looks like the "poll" is over, so let's move on with the discussion.  Maybe we don't do some kind of edit restriction, but how about a clear community consensus we can point him to to help nudge him in the right direction?  That seems to be the kind of thing we can get out of this discussion.  I'd be for it.  The message is simple: Wikipedia [[WP:NOTMYSPACE|is not a social club]].  It [[WP:ENC|is an encyclopedia]].  Please concentrate your efforts more on editing the encyclopedia.  Thank you.  --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;">'''Cyde Weys'''</span>]] 20:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:'''Yes.'''  What he said.  --[[User:Jake Wartenberg|<span style='color: lime;background-color: black;'>Jake Wartenberg</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Jake Wartenberg|<span style='color: black;background-color: lime;'>Talk</span>]]</sup> 21:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::I'd be happy with that, if I and four other people hadn't already said the same thing. Community consensus is fine. [[User:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:navy;">NuclearWarfare</span>]]''''' <sub>([[User talk:NuclearWarfare|<span style="color:green;">Talk</span>]])</sub>''''' 01:19, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
*'''Oppose restrictions''' - At least at this stage. User may be social, but is that really a bad thing? I wish he would move into the mainspace more too, but there is nothing actionable here. Perhaps if he continued down this path for a while longer I might support restrictions, but you would both have to provide evidence that he has completely ignored and/or failed to comply with legitimate requests to stop, and/or has become disruptive in some way through their socialising. Wikipedia is very much a social project, let's not forget that. <font face="Trebuchet MS"><b>&mdash; [[User:Neurolysis|<font color="#5A3696">neuro</font>]]</b><sup><i>[[User talk:Neurolysis|<font color="#5A3696">(talk)</font>]]</i></sup></font> 03:09, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
**Oop, ignore me, didn't realise it was over. Perhaps a section break is in order for idiots like me to see that this has ended? <font face="Trebuchet MS"><b>&mdash; [[User:Neurolysis|<font color="#5A3696">neuro</font>]]</b><sup><i>[[User talk:Neurolysis|<font color="#5A3696">(talk)</font>]]</i></sup></font> 03:18, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
*Oh, let's look on the bright side: Dylan's article editing rate (at 8.8%) is slightly higher than that of Essjay… — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 16:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
**Yes, and look at what happened with Essjay ... [[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;">'''Cyde Weys'''</span>]] 00:32, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
***If something I say sounds optimistic it is pure jest. You should know that by now. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 20:45, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

But I digress.  It isn't so much about article-writing as it is about productivity.  Alas, my article editing rate has been way down ever since becoming an admin, but I don't think anyone here would contend that means I should be disinvited from Wikipedia.  I'm very active with [[WP:CFD|Categories for deletion]] and other Wikipedia processes, and nearly all of my talk page communication is about issues that directly affect the project.  So focusing solely on namespace 0 editing percentages is a bit myopic.  What's actually at issue here is a high percentage of meaningless edits (of which those fracking guest books and "secret pages" are the worst examples).  --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;">'''Cyde Weys'''</span>]] 00:32, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

*'''Support''' supply of more rope; hanging strictly optional at this stage.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 23:00, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

== I need to know who the last one to edit a page was ==

I am doing a project and I need to know who the last person to edit The Dark Knight(film) was. How do I find this out? Thank you very much! [[User:Harrypotterfanfreak|Harrypotterfanfreak]] ([[User talk:Harrypotterfanfreak|talk]]) 22:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

:Just click the "[[Help:Page history|history]]" tab at the top of the page. '''[[User:It Is Me Here|<font color="#006600;">It Is Me Here</font>]]''' <sup>'''[[User_talk:It Is Me Here|<font color="#CC6600;">t</font>]] / [[Special:Contributions/It Is Me Here|<font color="#CC6600;">c</font>]]</sup>''' 22:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

:(edit conflict with above) Click the little "History" tab at the top of the article page when you are viewing the article. It will list the full history of every edit ever made. You could also view any of those edits along the way, or look at changes between any two edits. In the future, you may want to ask questions like this at [[Wikipedia:Help desk]], which is better designed for these sorts of questions. --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 22:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

:Worth noting, of course, is that the 'last' editor to edit an article may change frequently, particularly for high-visibility, high-traffic articles.  Looking at the history of [[The Dark Knight (film)]], it seems that there have been 17 edits to that article in the last 24 hours, by 13 different editors; the last four editors weren't even logged in, and so are just listed as [[IP address]]es.  If you are writing a paper or doing a school project and you wish to cite Wikipedia as a source (in your references or bibliography), you might want to have a look at [[Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia]] for instructions.  [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 23:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
== [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations]] ==

I am happy to announce that [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations]] is now live and fully operational. For those who have not been following the merger closely, a [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/SSP-RFCU merger proposal|community discussion]] took place in early April of last year where consensus determined a need for the merge of both [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets]] and [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser]]. Myself along wit the help of {{User|FT2}}, {{User|Lucasbfr}}, {{User|Nixeagle}}, {{User|Sam Korn}}, {{User|X!}}, and {{User|Thehelpfulone}} (whom my dearest thanks go out to) worked for many months on a process that would be beneficial to the community, and reduce the level of needless bureaucracy. A few notable changes have been made:
*All cases are formatted in the same way, regardless of whether the request deals with CheckUser or not;
*[[WP:SPI]] is now assisted by a Clerk bot (created and maintained by {{User|Nixeagle}}) which means that there will be no need to transclude any request to the main page. Simply sit back and let the bot do the work;
*Cases that have a CheckUser request attached may be endorsed or declined for CheckUser attention by any [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Clerks|clerk]] with the understanding that any CheckUser may overrule their decision;
*CheckUsers will monitor both cases that involve request for CheckUser and simple investigations, this will allow for a CheckUsers to intervene where necessary;
*Users who were regulars at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets are welcome to continue to do their great (and much needed) work at SPI;
While we have been working on this for over <s>a year</s> 9 months (fixed - FT2), there are still changes that will need to be made, as such I encourage any feedback the community may have on the talk page. [[User:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#4E562C;font-weight:bold">Tiptoety</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#FFDB58">talk</span>]]</sup> 23:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:I admit to [[fallow]]ing this topic, and offer my thanks to all those who have worked upon it. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 23:49, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:Yay! The paint is still a little wet, so be nice with the bot and the overall process for the first days. We believe this will make things easier for people willing to help on sock cases by making it more straightforward. By the way, there's already a backlog, so chop chop! -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#0099FF;">talk</span>]]</sup> 23:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
:Congrats to all involved. '''[[User:Synergy|<span style="color:#222222; font-family:Times New Roman;">Syn</span>]]'''[[User_talk:Synergy|<span style="color:#222222; font-family:Times New Roman;">ergy</span>]] 00:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::As a plain editor who seems to run into sockpuppeteers and their puppets frequently, it looks good to me. Just don't let the backlog accumulate to SSP proportions. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 04:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

=== CheckUser letter codes revamp ===
As part of SPI, the letter codes used at RFCU might be updated for SPI. This is one of the outstanding SPI matters. A summary of the proposed new letters is [[Wikipedia talk:Sockpuppet investigations/SPI/Checkuser criteria and letters|here]] - any users familiar with CheckUser or suspected sock cases are welcome to comment. 

[[user:FT2|FT2]]&nbsp;<sup><span style="font-style:italic">([[User_talk:FT2|Talk]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/FT2|email]])</span></sup> 02:09, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

=== suggestion ===
Open up the blue boxes.  Nobody has time to open every single one.  If left open, a quick scanning can see if something needs investigation.  Often other editors can help make investigative comments.  Let's open this up and not close it up/hide it.  The old way was better but this way will be better if there are not blue boxes to hide stuff. [[User:Chergles|Chergles]] ([[User talk:Chergles|talk]]) 22:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Tiptoey asked me to discuss it.  Any objections to opening up the boxes?  That way, one can scan the info in 3 seconds.  Most people don't want to spend half an hour opening up all the collapsable blue boxes.  If they have that much time, they should edit more.  [[User:Chergles|Chergles]] ([[User talk:Chergles|talk]]) 19:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

:If you are using FF w/noscript, the collapsible boxes are disabled by default, just something as a temporary workaround. [[User:Noian|<span style="color:red;">'''&eta;oian'''</span>]] [[User_talk:Noian|<small><span style="color:MediumSeaGreen;">''&Dagger;orever &eta;ew &Dagger;rontiers''</span></small>]] 04:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
== Obamania ==

Here in the United States there's some sort of inauguration thing going on today (I forget the specifics). Our featured article on [[Barack Obama]] is already getting a lot of attention today (even more than normal) and roundabout noon Eastern Standard Time or shortly before, and no doubt for the rest of the day, the edits are going to be coming fast and furious (both constructive and non-constructive). I'm sure a lot of admins already watch that page and no doubt most are aware that it's going to be abnormally active over there, but it would be good if we could have as many admins as possible dropping by the article and talk page from time to time. I've been checking in there periodically for the last week but will be offline most of the day today so if other folks could help out that would be sweet. Do it for democracy. Or freedom. Or something. --[[User:Bigtimepeace|Bigtimepeace]] <small>| [[User_talk:Bigtimepeace|talk]] |  [[Special:Contributions/Bigtimepeace|contribs]]</small> 14:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

:We managed to survive the elections, we will survive the inauguration. I doubt there is anyone in the Western World who does not know about today, even here in Germany the news are full of it. ;-) '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #AC0000">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #1F3F53">Why</span>]]''' 14:49, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

::FWIW, in keeping with the times I've updated[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Obamania&diff=prev&oldid=265291756] the [[Obamania]] redirect from [[Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008]] to [[Barack Obama 2009 presidential inauguration]]...  —[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] ([[User talk:Sladen|talk]]) 14:54, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
== Disruptive editor at [[Talk:Punk rock]] ==

Basically, this guy ([[Special:Contributions/Marvinst|Marvinst]], who has never made a single edit that hasn't been reverted) comes along and tries to rewrite established music history, and when he is reverted he comes on the talk page, calls me a clown, threatens to have me banned, and rants about how Kurt Cobain was a idiot who deserved to die among other things. Frankly, I'm a bit speechless over it all. Just read over the lass three headings on the talk page, and I think you'll agree he needs at least a 24-hour block just to cool down. [[User:Zazaban|Zazaban]] ([[User talk:Zazaban|talk]]) 06:38, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Oh yeah, and he doesn't seem to understand the concept of 'original research' and he considers himself as a reliable source over all else. [[User:Zazaban|Zazaban]] ([[User talk:Zazaban|talk]]) 06:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

*I've left a note on the talk page and will engage the editor with a comment as well. (Considering the topic, I'd suggest a general flailing about with my guitar to get the right tone, but it's already in bad enough shape.) [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]]</small> 07:09, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
*It is almost as if there is an established relationship between [[Anarchy in the UK|punk rock and anarchist sentiment]], isn't it? [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 13:34, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
: I'm sorry, what is that supposed to mean? I am an anarchist myself, and I can assure you that Marvinst does not resemble anything to do with anarchism. [[User:Zazaban|Zazaban]] ([[User talk:Zazaban|talk]]) 19:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::It's a joke, don't worry about it. 
::While I'm here, I'd appreciate if another admin could look at my messages at [[User talk:Marvinst]] - the editor seems unhappy with how I'm dealing with him, and I'd like a second opinion. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]]</small> 21:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:::No problem with Tony's messages. The aggressive tone of Marvinst's comments suggests he must not be looking forward to a long career here, in which he will actually have to get along with people. I have notified Marvinst of this discussion. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 17:24, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi, all. This is Marvinst. With regards to this "man", Zazaban, he has made some accusations about me which are not true. First, he accuses me of never making an edit on wiki, which isn't true. I've made MANY MANY edits under other usernames, so he should refrain from making such ignorant statements. Second, he accused me of calling him a clown. I dare any of you to refer back to that discussion and find where I called him a 'clown'. You won't find it because I never called him that and he knows it. Third, Zazaban accuses me of "rewriting established music history". I never tried to rewrite music history. All I did was delete falsehoods about it and replace them with the truth. If history is about the truth, then clearly, he shouldn't be on wiki since he's not apparently interested in the truth. But, yes, I did threaten to have him banned because he sticks to irrational notions about punk which are highly questionable. And, yes, I did wish Kurt Cobain dead because he symbolized for us hardcore punks a long awaited chapter to the death of grunge, the worst genre of music ever created, and the polar opposite of punk music. I see nothing wrong in that. Maybe one should remind Zazaban that wishing another's death is not a crime. 

The only person here that needs a block is you, Zazaban. You keep defending the adsurd fiction about punk. YOU DON'T KNOW PUNK! I know punk, I lived punk, and am still a punk. YOU'RE NOT AND NEVER WAS! I don't like people who don't understand punk and have leanings towards american garbage grunge music that did more to destroy any vestiges of punk than help revive it. Then, the punk POSER Zazaban said: "I am an anarchist myself, and I can assure you that Marvinst does not resemble anything to do with anarchism." Obviously, Zazaban IS NOT a punk/anarchist because: 1) He doesn't know ANYTHING about punk   history. 2) He defends grunge music since IT'S NOT PUNK. 3) He stated things about punk which is false and which hardcore punks deny to the hilt. 4) And, he is nothing more than a POSER. He's not a punk... never have been, never will be.

Also, EdJohnston's weak tone suggests that he doesn't seem to be smart at wiki. He invites me to this forum to discuss the article, then he insults me by saying that I don't have a long career at wiki. That sounds pretty hypocritical. It's amazing how one can be brave online, but in person, can be a coward. 
[[User:Marvinst|Marvinst]] ([[User talk:Marvinst|talk]]) 20:53, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::<nowiki>*facepalm*</nowiki> [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]]</small> 21:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:::<small>Re [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&diff=265156470&oldid=265156084 this edit summary]; I should advise you that it was spelt [[Oi!]] (being someone who worked with [[The Exploited|Wattie]]'s mum when they were part of the scene - and was into punk in the late 1970's.) [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 21:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)</small>
::::<small>I'd say tony was more implying [[oy gevalt]] than the punk-rocker expression oi! &mdash; <b>[[User:HandThatFeeds|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; color:DarkBlue;cursor:help">The Hand That Feeds You</span>]]:<sup>[[User talk:HandThatFeeds|Bite]]</sup></b> 00:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)</small>
:::::<small><nowiki>*ding*</nowiki> Have some [[gefilte fish]]. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]]</small> 03:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)</small>
:24 hour block for the above diatribe. If you're trying to convince someone you're not disruptive...you probably shouldn't go on the admin noticeboard and make personal attacks. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 21:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
: No, I'm not a punk, and never said I was. I am an anarchist, as I follow the political ideal of [[anarchism]]. Anarchism as a political belief is not, and has very little to do with Punk. Also, I do not care what you think of grunge, or what it 'did' to punk (how can music genres 'do' anything?) And I hardly think Kurt Cobain was consciously trying to 'kill' punk, as I think he was probably sane enough not to care about genre transfixions. Furthermore, this is the most appalling behavior I have ever seen on this website. It is very clear that Marvinst has absolutely no interest in civilly contributing to this encyclopedia, and I highly suspect he will continue to be disruptive upon his return. Also, he did call me a clown, on his first post on the talk page. Permanent block. Please.  [[User:Zazaban|Zazaban]] ([[User talk:Zazaban|talk]]) 23:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
: Also, if you had been on wikipedia before, like you claim, you would know better than to act this badly. If you did have older accounts, I'm going to guess they've been blocked. [[User:Zazaban|Zazaban]] ([[User talk:Zazaban|talk]]) 00:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:: My "ignore him" strategy ain't looking to bad now, is it Zazaban? [[User:Kingdom2|kingdom2]] ([[User talk:Kingdom2|talk]]) 03:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

: Oh hell, whatever, nevermind. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 19:10, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
== Weed through the edits of 208.253.174.70? ==

Can somebody weed through the edits of 208.253.174.70? The few I checked are unsourced and false (especially Harry Truman's boa constrictor). Sorry if this is the wrong venue. --[[User:Me, but logged in|Me, but logged in]] ([[User talk:Me, but logged in|talk]]) 16:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:yeah, most of these look so old that many have long since been removed or reverted.  Feel free to make any more fixes needed, but that IP has not edited in over a month... --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 22:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

== Server problems? ==

Just read this: ''The toolserver was down for a couple days around New Year's, due to the servers being moved from the Amsterdam facility to another data center.''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-01-10/Technology_report] I'm based in Germany and since about that date am facing serious problems while being around here - sometimes the response is pretty lame (both, Firefox and Huggle) and sometimes it even gives some 404s. What's behind this? Thank you!--''Avant-garde a clue''-'''[[User:HexaChord|<span style="color:#000000;">hexa</span>]][[User talk:HexaChord|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Chord</span>]][[Wikipedia:WikiProject Guitarists/Buckethead task force|<sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2</sup>]]''' 19:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:From first glance it maybe a problem with your ISP's DNS tables (a problem which usually resolves itself on its own). Try accessing the toolserver using another connection and see if you can duplicate the problem. If it works fine on the alternate connection, then it's probably the DNS. You may want to try posting this at [[WP:VPT]] to see if smarter people than me can give you a better answer. <b>[[User:Caknuck|<span style="color:#FF6600;">caknuck</span>]] [[User talk:Caknuck|<sub style="color:black;">°</sub>]] <span style="color:#FF6600;">resolves to be more caknuck-y</span></b> 21:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
::Ok, thank you.--''Avant-garde a clue''-'''[[User:HexaChord|<span style="color:#000000;">hexa</span>]][[User talk:HexaChord|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Chord</span>]][[Wikipedia:WikiProject Guitarists/Buckethead task force|<sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2</sup>]]''' 22:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

== Arbitration enforcement RfC ==

The Arbitration Committee has [[Wikipedia:Requests for Comment/Arbitration enforcement|opened a Request for Comment regarding arbitration enforcement]], including a review of general and discretionary sanctions. All editors are encouraged to comment and contribute. The Committee will close the RfC one month from its opening. After the closing, the Committee intends to formalize reform proposals within one month. 

For the Committee,<br/>
[[User:Vassyana|Vassyana]] ([[User talk:Vassyana|talk]]) 23:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
== Violation of [[WP:NPA]] ==

{{resolved|Before someone digs themselves a deeper hole. --[[User:Barneca|barneca]] ([[User talk:Barneca|talk]]) 15:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)}}
<div class="boilerplate metadata discussion-archived" style="background-color: #f5f3ef; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
:''The following discussion is archived. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.'' {{#if:|''A summary of the conclusions reached follows.''
::{{{1}}}
----
}} <!-- from Template:discussion top-->

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKalajan&diff=264178010&oldid=264177598]As you can see, a user called [[User:Colts1]], added an extremely rude message to my talk page and was removed by [[User:IMatthew|IMatthew]], thing is, when IMatthew removed it, he laughed, in the description of his edits, all he said was haa. I would very appreciate it if you could solve this with a block or something. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 15:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:[[User talk:Colts1|The user]] was warned. No further action appears to be required... [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 15:22, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::I didn't know he was warned until later. So do people get second chances? People can get away just cause you admins don't care to react! *Siiting there on the sofa reading playboy* Yah, that's all you do, and I bet that if someone did anything to '''you''' you'd block'em straight away. He hasn't even edited mainspace yet (being here for a week). [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 15:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Well, for a start off I'm not an admin, so I wouldn't be able to do that. If someone vandalised my page, or whatever I'd warn them. If they continued, then I'd take them to [[WP:AIV]]. [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 15:27, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Firstly, this isn't a myspace, which is what Colts seems to think this is, and secondly, I'd like to have an admin's opinion, cause this is called '''Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard''', I didn't come here to speak to some random user. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 15:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::First off, administrators are really no diffent than anybody else.  THe only thing is that we have been trusted with some extra tools however our opinions are no different than regular editors. secondly, as an administrator, if an editor stops bad behabior after a warning they are not going to be blocked.  If the user makes personal attacks again after a warning they may be blocked.  However if they ahve stopped then all is well.  SImilarly, your comments above could be viewed as an attack on adminsitrators who, all as volunteers, put in many hours of hard work on this project.  Please be careful when making inappropriate stereotype about editors on this project and feel free to read through wikipedias blocking policies (and other [[WP:POLICY|policies]] and [[WP:GUIDELINES|guidelines]]).  Hope this helps.  If you have any further questions you are welcome to address me directly on my [[User talk:Chrislk02|user talk page]].  Thanks! [[User:Chrislk02|<font color="1E90FF">'''Chris'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Chrislk02|<font color="4169E1">'''lk02'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Chrislk02|<font color="2A52BE">Chris Kreider</font>]]</sup> 15:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::(E/c)Anyone can contribute to this board. Admins are not special and there are many, many knowledgeable non-admins whose advice you should pay attention to if offered. [[User:Seraphim|<font color="CC0033">Seraphim</font>]][[User_talk:Seraphim|<font color="black">&hearts;</font>]] 15:42, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Well, you say that if he repeats it, I should report him? okay. And also, here :

''SImilarly, your comments above could be viewed as an attack on adminsitrators who, all as volunteers, put in many hours of hard work on this project.''

Well I wasn't uncivil. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 15:51, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

:Just to be clear, non-admins can issue warnings. Just make sure your warnings are given in increments - like level 1, level 2, level 3. If it continues after that, then an admin would be necessary to take further action (such as a temporary block). [[Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace]] has a great deal of information and templates. Usually, we don't use templates to warn regular editors (of course, there are exceptions)...but you can paraphrase your own messages from the templates. [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] ([[User talk:Kingturtle|talk]]) 16:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::Hi, um.. the user did it again [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kalajan&diff=prev&oldid=264288887], I think he should be blocked. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 18:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

=== Kalajan's edits ===
{{userlinks|Kalajan}}

Some of the comments from Kalajan above look uncivil, such as calling a user "random". I've had a bit of interaction with him, and noticed several uncivil edits, as well as edit warring:

*Edit-warred on [[List of World Wrestling Entertainment employees]]; blocked 24 hours.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_World_Wrestling_Entertainment_employees&offset=20090111183419&action=history]
*Called all admins "useless" and questioning a block towards him. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tiptoety&diff=prev&oldid=264131277][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tiptoety&diff=prev&oldid=263822967]
*Created a [[User:Kalajan/WWE Roster discussion|copy page]] of [[Talk:List of World Wrestling Entertainment employees]] with the intention to disrupt by continuing the discussion in his own userspace.
*I don't know whether [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_World_Wrestling_Entertainment_employees&diff=next&oldid=264276912 this] is sarcastic but he compares Wikipedia's rules to "Naziland". States in the same edit that a admin has a grudge against him that started last April.
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&oldid=262154343#Kalajan_reported_by_D.M.N._.28Result:_warned.29 Edit-warred] on [[Randy Orton]].

I think there's some other uncivil comments as well in there, I know he used to vandalise with edits like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heavyweight&diff=prev&oldid=205384798 these]. I'm not sure whether a warning for the edits like above are necessary, but I feel the editor at times fails to AGF. [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 16:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Okay I'd like to explain myself here:
*I '''did''' edit war on WWE Roster, that's right, and I'm sorry.
*I didn't mean calling admins stupid and useless, they wouldn't be admins if they were! And I know one or two and they are very nice, just like other users.
*I didn't know creating [[User:Kalajan/WWE Roster discussion|copy page]] of [[Talk:List of World Wrestling Entertainment employees]] wasn't allowed, I was just trying to sort out the page and do the discussion somewhere else, because of the amount of edits coming into that particular section.
*I didn't say a user had a grudge against me I said that I've had issues with him.
*Naziland was just an exageration and was sarcastic, meaning Wikipedia had a  large ammount of rules.
*I edit warred on Randy Orton because, as you see: I had been on wikipedia for about 2 Months (possibly less), and because my computer lagged, it took some time to return to the page when I added the edit on Randy Orton. When I reached there it wasn't there (someone had reomved it) but I thought it was because someone had blocked the page or something, so I did it again twice (not knowing I was doing wrong), until I was warned, but I still didn't know why it happened. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know why it happened until about a month ago. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 17:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:I'm confused. Are you saying your edits lagged for one month? If you could, please rephrase the last point you made there. '''<span style="border: 2px black solid;background:yellow;font-family:futana;">&nbsp;[[User:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Hazardous </font>]] [[User talk:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Matt</font>]]&nbsp;</span>''' 17:22, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::The edit warring on Randy Orton was at the start of this month, not several months ago as you seem to say. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Randy_Orton&diff=261710844&oldid=261707838][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Randy_Orton&diff=next&oldid=261711347][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Randy_Orton&diff=261715733&oldid=261714368][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Randy_Orton&diff=261988577&oldid=261717789]. [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 17:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Oh ''that'' edit warring, sorry, I was in the problem I described above another time on Orton. And no, I meant that my computer is very slow and old. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 17:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::::So you've been in two edit-wars on [[Randy Orton]] and one on [[List of World Wrestling Entertainment Employees]]? '''<span style="border: 2px black solid;background:yellow;font-family:futana;">&nbsp;[[User:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Hazardous </font>]] [[User talk:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Matt</font>]]&nbsp;</span>''' 17:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Yes but the Orton ones were mistakes. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 18:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

=== Second violation of WP:NPA in 1 day ===

[[User:Colts1]] Attacked me the second time in one day, see a few sections up. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kalajan&diff=prev&oldid=264288887]
The first time he was warned, now he should be blocked. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 20:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:Calm down. You jump to blocking as a solution far too quickly. You tried to get stricter block movements on [[Talk:List of World Wrestling Entertainment employees]], you've been asking other users to help you report [[User:Colts1]], you even asked [[User:NiciVampireHeart]] why an anon IP hadn't been banned but I didn't even see any communication you had with that IP. '''<span style="border: 2px black solid;background:yellow;font-family:futana;">&nbsp;[[User:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Hazardous </font>]] [[User talk:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Matt</font>]]&nbsp;</span>''' 20:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
:I think that, at this juncture, it would be wise to stop following a particular user's edits and to distance yourself from that article. You are digging yourself a larger hole to wallow in, and your commentary and edits are bordering on [[WP:DE|disruptive]]. Add to that, you have engaged in [[WP:EW|edit warring]] in the past, and have labeled other user's edits as incorrect; of course, to you, it would be to the [[WP:WRONG|wrong version]]. Back off and let the administrators do their work, and distance yourself from this particular user. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 20:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::No I haven't said anything to Colts because of sheer afraidness of him doing something else. But no Matt, I just find blocking a good solution to these types of editors. [[User:Kalajan|<font color="black">'''Kala'''</font>]][[User talk:Kalajan|<font color="crimson">'''jan'''</font>]][[Anarchy|<font color="black">'''€'''</font>]][[Papillon (autobiography)|<font color="black">'''₣'''</font>]] 20:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
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=== Death threats from Kalajan ===
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:SimonKSK/Wikischool&diff=264336458&oldid=264333391] - Not only does he refer to two editors as "Nazi's", but he also says that if he seen one of them, he'd "kill them". [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 08:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::I blocked him for a week.  that is uncalled for and it is obvious that he is making no efforts. [[User:Chrislk02|<font color="1E90FF">'''Chris'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Chrislk02|<font color="4169E1">'''lk02'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Chrislk02|<font color="2A52BE">Chris Kreider</font>]]</sup> 22:17, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::A week for death threats? Surely it's an indef until he revokes it? –  <span style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC; font-size:15px;">'''[[User:Toon05|Toon]][[User talk:Toon05|<span style="color:blue"><sup>(talk)</sup></span>]]'''</span> 22:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I disagree with the block. It has already been discussed on [[User:Barneca|Barneca]]'s talk page. He was encouraged by his adoptee to vent, to say whatever he wanted, specifically about those users...it was clearly not a real death threat...and it was 3 days ago. Blocks are supposed to be preventative, not punitive. Why block someone for something they did 3 days ago that they were told to do? --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 22:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
::::He should be blocked for his behavior in general, not just this comment led to by his adopter. He told him to basically be uncivil and attack others. I'm sure we can agree this adopter is not right for Kalajan, and that he will be blocked next time he screws up. This has gone on long enough. Chance after chance, it's got to end sometime. <font face="cursive">'''[[User:IMatthew|<span style="color:#007BA7">iMatthew</span>]] // [[User talk:IMatthew|<span style="color:#960018">talk</span>]]''' // </span></font> 22:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::He was asked to vent in an "indirect way", and it doesn't look very indirect. It looks pretty unpleasant. Being told to do it is irrelevant anyway, and not an excuse. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 22:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I can see the reasoning for forgiving Kalajan for the fact that he was asked to vent by his new adoptee. However, as someone who's been trying to help him become a contributing editor, he doesn't seem to be interested in the editing process. He focused way too much on his userpage, creating his own catchphrases, adding "friends", making enemies (such as Sinofdreams and Colts1, who oddly enough approach him out of nowhere) and when discussing a block with Tiptoety referred to himself as an "edit warrior". He's been encouraged by myself, SimonKSK, iMatthew, Nikki311 and others to follow WP policy and to most importantly listen. He's stated that not edit-warring makes Wikipedia boring, and he misinterprets suggestions almost deliberately. (e.g. When I advised him to keep a low-profile and consult a more experienced editor before confronting possibly "uncivil" editors to see if a warning was justified, he interpreted it as taking the abuse and rolling over.) At this point, the block ''could'' be considered preventative. '''<span style="border: 2px black solid;background:yellow;font-family:futana;">&nbsp;[[User:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Hazardous </font>]] [[User talk:Hazardous Matt|<font color="black">Matt</font>]]&nbsp;</span>''' 05:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:Jeez, has no one ever heard of a [[batting cage]] or [[mediation]] as a means of relieving stress? At the very least, someone should have advised him to vent in an off-wiki blog, MS Word or doc - and then trash it. Wikipedia is not your therapist, much as some use it for cathartic value. - [[User:Arcayne|<span style="color:black">'''Arcayne'''</span>]] [[User talk:Arcayne|<small><span style="color:gray">(<sup>'''cast a spell'''</sup>)</span></small>]] 01:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::I doubt he will do it again after the week is over.  Sometimes wikipedia can be frustrating and difficult to get used to.  IF it happens again I will gladly block for a month or so.  While the actions were horrible I think they were done in good faith. [[User:Chrislk02|<font color="1E90FF">'''Chris'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Chrislk02|<font color="4169E1">'''lk02'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Chrislk02|<font color="2A52BE">Chris Kreider</font>]]</sup> 02:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

== Failure to Communicate: An administrator defending the use of the word Bugger towards me. ==

{{resolved|1=Not offensive in general discourse; wrong forum anyways. ➨ <font color="red">❝'''[[User talk:Redvers|ЯEDVERS]]'''❞</font> [[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|dedicated to making a happy man very old]] 12:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)}}
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[[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] did not originally block me but she did become involved after the fact.  ''Noting she originally did is at issue here.  Blocking is at her discretion within policy and I allege NO abuse of her powers or privileges as an administrator which she used properly.'' I just want that to be perfectly crystal clear from the outset.

However it seems that I cannot get through to her that the word ''bugger'' is unacceptable at least when it is used in relation to a LGBT person such as myself.  (I am a male to female transsexual.)   Another user used the word[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AHfarmer&diff=265065491&oldid=265065335].  I explained to him that it is unacceptable [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hfarmer&diff=next&oldid=265087998], She initially claimed that it was "mostly UK slang"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hfarmer&diff=prev&oldid=265102217]. Yet she after having seemed to understand that it was not acceptable yesterday.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AHfarmer&diff=265107343&oldid=265103853].  This morning she started defending that word and it's use again today[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AHfarmer&diff=265268827&oldid=265267035].  Could someone else try and explain to her why something that [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bugger Websters dictionary gives as a synonym for sodomite] is just not acceptable? 

I was not sure where else to go with this.  But perhaps hearing that from another admin she will listen. Or she will keep defending it's use or using it in that way which would not be good.--[[User:Hfarmer|Hfarmer]] ([[User talk:Hfarmer|talk]]) 12:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:The use of the word in that context has nothing whatsoever to do with sodomy, and is a barely-offensive word when used in the "bugger-all" context, which IS mostly UK slang. I think it's very clear that no offence was meant in the way that you have claimed, and it would be very unfair to admonish the editor concerned for its use in that way. [[User:Bretonbanquet|Bretonbanquet]] ([[User talk:Bretonbanquet|talk]]) 12:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

::Only to be clear, I called CalendarWatcher's phrase (not the word) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hfarmer&diff=prev&oldid=265102217 ''mossy'' UK slang,] not "mostly." [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 12:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

:{{ec}} The phrase used was [[wikt:bugger all|bugger all]], which as far as I can tell is ''vulgar'' but not ''offensive'' as [[wikt:bugger|bugger]] may be. While similar phrases that have potentially offensive words have become offensive (e.g., [[wikt:Chinaman's chance|Chinaman's chance]]), there are other cases where non-offensive meanings of offensive words are retained (e.g., [[wikt:fag|fag]] meaning "cigarette"). I do ''not'' see the word "bugger" here as being used towards you in reference to your sexual orientation or status. I can understand that you may feel offense, but I believe all that's happened here is a misunderstanding that needs to be dropped. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 12:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

: The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary says "bugger all, damn all, etc., coarse slang [meaning] absolutely nothing". Our own [[Bugger#Usage|article]] is illuminating. I'd [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] and put this down to cross-cultural crossed wires myself, then move on :) --[[User:Roger Davies|<font color="maroon">'''R<small>OGER</small>&nbsp;D<small>AVIES</small>'''</font>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 12:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

::Speaking as a gay man, I can tell you now that "bugger" in any context is not offensive. Speaking as a Brit, I can also tell you that it is the mildest "swearword" in British English, used by people in all social classes. Bugger all (==little or nothing), bugger off (==go away quickly), bugger this (==I've had enough of this), bugger that (==I'm not doing that), buggeration (==annoyed noise) and bugger up (==get wrong) are all phrases my mother would - and does - use, in front of me and to me. ➨ <font color="red">❝'''[[User talk:Redvers|ЯEDVERS]]'''❞</font> [[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|dedicated to making a happy man very old]] 12:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Thanks Redvers. 'Bug off' is the US version of [[Bugger off]] (and as an American living in England I can speak from personal experience. Looking at Hfarmer's talk page, I see no need to take any action. [[User:Dougweller|dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 12:44, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_1_113/ai_86063327/pg_6 See this article for context].[[Special:Contributions/70.19.64.89|70.19.64.89]] ([[User talk:70.19.64.89|talk]]) 12:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I think the bigger issue is that since there is no actual accusation of admin abuse, why is this here at all? Since Gwen was not acting as an admin when she used the questionable language, why is this conversation not happening at an appropriate place, like, um, Gwen's talk page? You know, in general, when there is a problem with a person, the mature thing to do is to confront them and present the situation to the civily and politely. Running to mommy and daddy to tattle isn't exactly the best first thing to do when one is in conflict. This thread serves little except to further the offense or escalate the conflict. I move to close this thread... --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 12:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Perhaps not if your from England my gay friend. But here in the USA it is offensive. Offense has to be judged at both ends of the pipe. Both the sender and reciever have to be considered. At this end of the pipe Bugger is not a slang word at all (It might be used to refer to an insect that's about it). The Websters Dictionary, which is what would pertain to the USA [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bugger%5B2%5D 1usually vulgar : to commit sodomy with, for it's use as a transative verb].  Then [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bugger%5B1%5D "Sodomite" is given as it's definition when used as a noun.] In context out of context. To my US English speaking ear, and to many others it is an insult just as the perjorative/dismissive use of the word gay is to many LGBT people. --[[User:Hfarmer|Hfarmer]] ([[User talk:Hfarmer|talk]]) 13:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

:::To the one who said this is cross cultural crossed wires, yes. That is what it is. I just needed to have someone else affirm to her that this is what it is. That we need to be mindful of how different words are percieved even in English. I can think of a few we use here in the USA that British people find offensive, yet we in the USA don't. Instead of defending using the words I just don't use them in a internationally read area like this one. I avoid them online for the most part due to the probability of inadvertent offense.

:::As for why this is here. It is not at all clear from reading the article on administrator abuse just where one reports a admin behaving badly but that it has noting really to do with thier adminship per-se. Should that be reported as if they were just any user? I did not know. So I put it here.   Which I did after brining it up on my talk page.  I did not just "run to mommy and daddy" like a tattle tale.  >:-|--[[User:Hfarmer|Hfarmer]] ([[User talk:Hfarmer|talk]]) 13:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

::::Oh, Good Lord, what have I wrought? Hfarmer, you're not only a 'tattle tale', you're a particularly incoherent one, given both your history of juvenile and deliberate name-calling and of your attempt to find offense in a word ''which was not even referring to you, syntactically, in the sentence in question''. Worse, you're not even correct on usage in your own country: I did a search on Google News for 'bugger', and nowhere am I seeing American news stories using it to mean 'sodomite': rather, I'm seeing phrases such as 'And yes, Virginia, December was a bugger.' ([[Traverse City, Michigan|Traverse City]] ''Record-Eagle'', [http://www.record-eagle.com/opinion/local_story_014094204.html Editorial: It's so cold ...], 14 January, 2009), 'But if you don't like the guy Larry Walker once described as a “hyper little bugger,” you don't really like baseball.' (''[[San Diego Union-Tribune]]'', [http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/jan/16/padres-sullivan-tiny-target-brings-toughness/?padres 'Padres' new 5-foot-7 sparkplug will provide toughness and tenacity'], 16 January 2009), and 'But no, they had to go and bugger things up by not only scheduling the weddings in the same month but on the same day.' (''[[Chico, California|Chico]] News & Review'', [http://www.newsreview.com/chico/Content?oid=896393 Cynical chick flick]). The fact is, as has been obvious to--literally--everyone who has commented, you crave martyrdom, but no-one is obliging. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that you perfectly well know that your complaints are groundless nonsense. --[[User:CalendarWatcher|CalendarWatcher]] ([[User talk:CalendarWatcher|talk]]) 14:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC) 
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== Admin WP:CoI violation blocking ==

{{resolved|1=This isn't a COI violation. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 01:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)}}
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3A84.65.143.72 This] is in response to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:J.delanoy&diff=264731858&oldid=264707212 this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:J.delanoy&diff=264731858&oldid=264707212 this]. Since [[WP:CoI]] is clear on the matter, there is no excuse for this block, especially when there are plenty of other admin without a clear CoI that could have made the block. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:Er.. what? [[WP:COI]] doesn't apply to blatantly obvious vandalism. --[[User:Conti|Conti]]|[[User talk:Conti|✉]] 01:19, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::[[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Disputes]] suggests otherwise. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::''Administrators must not block users with whom they are engaged in a content dispute;'' Where is the content that is being disputed? It was just a blatant vandal. [[User:Woody|Woody]] ([[User talk:Woody|talk]]) 01:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Your own user page is a section that you are not to use your admin tools on. This has always been the case. If this was a named user, this would have gone to ANI and the block would have been overturned on these grounds. Why treat it differently as an IP? [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Also, you misread the obvious: "Administrators should also be aware of potential conflicts of interest involving pages or subject areas with which they are involved." It is clear that you are interested in your own user page and should not use tools on it. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Have you looked at their contributions? Any named editor would have had an indef block instead of a 2 weeks one. [[User:Woody|Woody]] ([[User talk:Woody|talk]]) 01:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::And if he would have followed proper procedure and let -any- other editor block, then they would have been blocked. Furthermore, there is no justification for an -indef- block of the IP. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:42, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

: Good block. No reasonable administrator would hesitate to block that account. There is no conflict of interest here. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 01:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::A reasonable administrator would not block on a page that they are a primary editor of as it is a blatant disregard to basic blocking consensus. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::[[Special:Contributions/84.65.143.72]]. Seriously, WTF? Anyone would have blocked this one – you'll notice I'm the one who gave him a final warning, not J.delanoy. This isn't a content dispute or an edit war.&nbsp;–&nbsp;''[[User:Iridescent|<font color="#E45E05">iride</font><font color="#C1118C">scent</font>]]'' 01:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I agree, [[Special:Contributions/84.65.143.72]] shows that COI is not a consideration here. It was a block for blatant vandalism that had gone on for an hour. [[User:Woody|Woody]] ([[User talk:Woody|talk]]) 01:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Then please reread the above link to the blocking policy which clearly says otherwise. See below for no justification for -him- to perform the block. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:26, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::If anyone would have blocked him, then there is no justification for j.delanoy to have blocked him. Thus, there is no grounds for him to act in this manner that defies blocking consensus. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:26, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:While it might have been preferable for J.delanoy (<s>btw, did you notify?</s> I see you did) to ask another admin to step in, I think vandalizing 8 more articles after a final warning is certainly blockable, and I can easily argue that the block had nothing to do with the laughable vandalism to the user page. --[[User:Fabrictramp|<span style="color:#228b22; font-family:comic sans ms;">Fabrictramp</span>]] | [[User talk:Fabrictramp|<span style="color:#960018; font-family:Papyrus;">talk to me</span>]] 01:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::It is standard that if you are involved in one article that is part of a set to not block for what goes on another article if its the same person, since it carries the same taint. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:30, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Being told that you "HAVE A TINY COCK" takes precadent over any article issues. That's a flagrant [[WP:NPA]] violation, which is actionable by ''any'' administrator, regardless of editing history. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 01:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Admins blocking those who personally attack them is a clear violation of blocking policy. When has this ever changed? Why would you suggest otherwise? [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Efficiency should not be confused with a conflict of interest. When has this ever ''not'' been the way it should be? Where is the policy that you think is relevant? [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Disputes]] isn't it. [[WP:COI]] isn't it. Where is it? [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 01:43, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Moot point, as the block he is under is now by me. While it's simply bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake...it was really the simplest/most obvious answer to the question...--[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 01:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Thank you for the simple solution [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::As I quoted above and on your user page, the blocking policy clearly states: "Administrators should also be aware of potential conflicts of interest involving pages or subject areas with which they are involved." This includes one's own user and user talk page. Furthermore, if I were to say that you had a "tiny dick" or any other personal attack, you would not be justified in blocking me. This has always been the case and you surely know that. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::(edit conflict x3)  Just some background; this thread is the result of an argument on IRC in which Ottava claimed that he could get j.delanoy de-sysoped.  There is strong animosity between the two.  &mdash; [[User:Jake Wartenberg|<font color="#21421E" face="Harrington">Jake</font>]] [[User_talk:Jake_Wartenberg|<font color="#21421E" face="Harrington">Wartenberg</font>]] 01:49, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Total misinterpretation of everything I said. J.delanoy revealed that he makes such blocks constantly. I said that if we had the desysopping program initiated as proposed, then it would be a justification for him to be desysopped. I asked for evidence. He provided this recent CoI block. He knew it was a CoI block, because he stated so. Note - I did not bring in IRC, Jake did. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 01:51, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I brought in IRC because I though that people deserved to understand the context for this dispute.  Is there a reason I should not have?  &mdash; [[User:Jake Wartenberg|<font color="#21421E" face="Harrington">Jake</font>]] [[User_talk:Jake_Wartenberg|<font color="#21421E" face="Harrington">Wartenberg</font>]] 01:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::No, there is no reason. I did not out of respect to delanoy. I did not want to remove his ability to not incriminate himself out of respect to him and that I actually do like him. I only reported this here because I will not stand for blatant disregard for the rules even by those who I respect or enjoy talking to. He stated himself that it was CoI. He knew that it was a violation. I am bound ethically to report it. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 02:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Jake and Ottava, for de-mystifying this thread for me. All is clear now.  --[[User:Barneca|barneca]] ([[User talk:Barneca|talk]]) 01:57, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:IRC-related drama? How rare. –  <span style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC; font-size:15px;">'''[[User:Toon05|Toon]][[User talk:Toon05|<span style="color:blue"><sup>(talk)</sup></span>]]'''</span> 02:01, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:I can take a screen caption and forward it to the appropriate people if there is any proof needed as to delanoy admitting that he blocks people in violation of CoI and was the one to come out about it without provocation. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 02:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::That was blatant vandalism and PA, no COI in such a case. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Rlevse|<b style="color:#060;"><i>R</i>levse</b>]] • [[User_talk:Rlevse|<span style="color:#990;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 02:10, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Agreed, there's really no COI to speak of here. &ndash;[[User:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]] [[User talk:Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''T'''ropical</sup>]] [[Special:contributions/Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''C'''yclone</sup>]] 02:11, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
*Is this a serious question? My instinct would be to throw it out, without a second thought. [[WP:COI|Conflict of interest]] notwithstanding, this is a [[Special:Contributions/84.65.143.72|clear-cut case]] of [[WP:Vandalism|vandalism]]. Not blocking would be potentially damaging to WP. [[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] ([[User talk:Ohconfucius|talk]]) 02:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC) 
For the record, before this incident, I have had no opinion, good or bad, of Ottava, and I saw no evidence that he did of me. 

As far as I can tell, everything Ottava and others have mentioned about our IRC conversation is true. I was hoping to avoid referencing IRC, because I didn't want another argument about the positives and negatives of IRC.

Also, I have never hid the fact that I block people who vandalize my userpages. Indeed, if someone vandalizes my userpages after receiving a level four warning from ''anyone'', (including me) the only reason anyone ''other'' than me blocks them is because either I am not on, I don't see it, or I am not as fast as someone else. [[User:J.delanoy|<span style="color:green;">J'''.'''delanoy</span>]][[User Talk:J.delanoy|<sup style="color:red;">gabs</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/J.delanoy|<sub style="color:blue;">adds</sub>]] 02:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.''<!-- from Template:discussion bottom --></div>
== CentralNotice ==

Any one know where the current sitenotice is coming from or how to turn it off?  We do not need to be advertising some internal process to the majority of the people that use Wikipedia (i.e. the readers). [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 03:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:From Meta, [[m:MediaWiki:Centralnotice-template-plain text election notice nom]]. '''[[User:Majorly|<span style="font-family:verdana; font-size:10pt; color:#6B8AB8">Majorly</span>]]''' [[User talk:Majorly#t|<span style="font-family:verdana; font-size:8pt; color:#6B8AB8">talk</span>]] 03:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't it only be on watchlist pages instead? [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 04:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

:No, that is a watchlist notice, this is a sitenotice. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 04:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

::It ''should'' be on watchlists, because the notice shouldn't interest non-editors. '''[[User:Majorly|<span style="font-family:verdana; font-size:10pt; color:#6B8AB8">Majorly</span>]]''' [[User talk:Majorly#t|<span style="font-family:verdana; font-size:8pt; color:#6B8AB8">talk</span>]] 04:03, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Agreed -- this should be a watchlist notice, not a sitenotice. [[User:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Glass</span>]]'''[[User talk:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Cobra</span>]]''' 04:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

(ec) It's also breaking the page layout for non-logged-in readers (that's most of them!) - see [[Talk:Main Page#.3F]]. And yes, it ought to only be displayed on the watchlist, but I'm not sure that can be done with content pushed from Meta that way. <span  style="white-space:nowrap">— [[User:Gavia immer|Gavia immer]] ([[User talk:Gavia immer|talk]])</span> 04:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Is there any way to disable for en.wikipedia? [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 04:12, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Really the only thing that would work for casual readers would be to completely suppress the sitenotice in [[Mediawiki:Common.css]]. Mind you, I think that's tempting, for a lot of reasons, but Brion would surely overrrule it. <span  style="white-space:nowrap">— [[User:Gavia immer|Gavia immer]] ([[User talk:Gavia immer|talk]])</span> 04:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::I think he once said that would lead to desysopping, but I might be remembering incorrectly. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 04:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Hmm, apparently I was, still, I wouldn't try to do it without checking with someone. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 04:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

This notice is highly disruptive. 99.99% of people looking at Wikipedia pages don't care at all.  This sort of advertising is intrusive.  For fund raising it makes sense, but not for Steward Elections.  Do we have a meta administrator who can pull this?  Shouldn't there be a meta file that gets inserted into all the watchlist notice files?  That would be much better. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 05:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:Watchlist is fine by me.  If someone know how to hide it locally, I say go ahead. [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 05:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:Hopefully whoever did this and put it on the watchlists instead, it'll be helpful there. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 05:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
::I signed out and signed back in and didn't see the sitenotice either time, looks like it has been removed. - <small style="border:1px solid #990000;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#990000;background:#FFFFFF;">NeutralHomer</span>]] • [[User_talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#000000;background:#FFFFFF;">Talk</span>]] • January 20, 2009 @ 05:32</small>
:::Something is still throwing some of the page layouts off though. - <small style="border:1px solid #990000;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#990000;background:#FFFFFF;">NeutralHomer</span>]] • [[User_talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#000000;background:#FFFFFF;">Talk</span>]] • January 20, 2009 @ 05:36</small>
::::Hmm, according to [[m:Talk:Stewards/elections_2009#Centralnotice]] it only showed for logged in users. While this is better, I still think it'd be better as a watchlist notice because many people that log-in aren't necessarily active editors. [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 05:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Is there anyway to ask someone over at Meta to move it to a watchlist notice?  What exactly is a "Steward" anyway, by the way. - <small style="border:1px solid #990000;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#990000;background:#FFFFFF;">NeutralHomer</span>]] • [[User_talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#000000;background:#FFFFFF;">Talk</span>]] • January 20, 2009 @ 05:45</small>
:::::::Mostly, a [[WP:Steward|steward]] can give or take away any user right you can think of. They have no decision making role at all, but given what the steward bit technically allows, it's a very high trust thing. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 05:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::I have posted a note on the [[m:Talk:Stewards/elections_2009#Centralnotice]] discussion about this discussion.  Hopefully that will bring some Meta eyes over here. - <small style="border:1px solid #990000;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#990000;background:#FFFFFF;">NeutralHomer</span>]] • [[User_talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#000000;background:#FFFFFF;">Talk</span>]] • January 20, 2009 @ 06:13</small>

The centralnotice will be up for a short while before the elections, and another short while at the beginning of the elections. As well, it displays only for logged-in users, and can be ''hidden'' (not shrunk like the fundraiser) by any user who doesn't want to see it any longer. There is no way to put a watchlist notice on all wikis at present, though that is perhaps something worth investigating. If anyone has constructive suggestions which are not impossible or unreasonable, I'd be happy to hear them. &nbsp;'''&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Mike.lifeguard|<b style="color:#309;">Mike</b>]].[[User talk:Mike.lifeguard|<b style="color:#309;">lifeguard</b>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;<sup>[[b:User talk:Mike.lifeguard|<span style="color:#309;">@en.wb</span>]]</sup> 17:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:Is the any way to exempt en.wp?  We can do a watchlist notice locally. [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 18:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

A couple points of clarification.
# It's a CentralNotice, ''not'' a Sitenotice. See also [[Wikipedia:Software notices]].
# It's currently only shown to logged-in users (the vast majority (about 90%-ish) of our readers do ''not'' log in).
# It is fully hide-able assuming your browser accepts and keeps cookies (which you need anyway to stay logged in).
# Adding the code <tt>#siteNotice {display: none !important;}</tt> to your CSS subpage will permanently hide this and all future Sitenotices and CentralNotices.
--[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 18:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

::MZMcBride will also be helping us try to get the notice even tinier than it is already. &nbsp;'''&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Mike.lifeguard|<b style="color:#309;">Mike</b>]].[[User talk:Mike.lifeguard|<b style="color:#309;">lifeguard</b>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;<sup>[[b:User talk:Mike.lifeguard|<span style="color:#309;">@en.wb</span>]]</sup> 21:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:::I wasn't aware that it was nearly as high as 90%.  What's the source for that (not that I doubt you)? 01:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
:::The notice should be considerably smaller now (spent quite a while working on it today). As for the 90% number, I have no idea where the citation is at the moment. But it's surely somewhere! :-)  --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 03:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
== Date links? ==

Hi guys, I remember there were two RfCs regarding linking dates floating around in December, but can't seem to find them now - can someone briefly relate their outcome to me? Should we blue-link dates and years or delink them? Thanks! '''[[User:It Is Me Here|<font color="#006600;">It Is Me Here</font>]]''' <sup>'''[[User_talk:It Is Me Here|<font color="#CC6600;">t</font>]] / [[Special:Contributions/It Is Me Here|<font color="#CC6600;">c</font>]]</sup>''' 21:45, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:[[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking/Proposed decision#Temporary injunction against automated date linking or delinking]]. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 21:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks - so a final decision has not yet been made, then? '''[[User:It Is Me Here|<font color="#006600;">It Is Me Here</font>]]''' <sup>'''[[User_talk:It Is Me Here|<font color="#CC6600;">t</font>]] / [[Special:Contributions/It Is Me Here|<font color="#CC6600;">c</font>]]</sup>''' 21:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Not yet. Still in Arbcom.&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 22:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::::OK, thanks, I'll try to keep an eye on it from now on. '''[[User:It Is Me Here|<font color="#006600;">It Is Me Here</font>]]''' <sup>'''[[User_talk:It Is Me Here|<font color="#CC6600;">t</font>]] / [[Special:Contributions/It Is Me Here|<font color="#CC6600;">c</font>]]</sup>''' 22:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

== What's this, then? ==

http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14273/css/14273_181.htm looks like an extract form a patent or manual - who is the rights owner?  Shouldn't we be linking this from a source closer to the originator, not one loaded down with invitations to "buy this content" in multiple formats? <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 20:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:Going further up the URL to http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14273 gives a table of contents, which marries up to the third entry of [http://cgi.ebay.com/Gas-IC-Engines-&-Auto-Tech-CD-Books-FREE-S%2FH_W0QQitemZ300287635275QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090118?IMSfp=TL090118116002r27615 this ebay listing] (compare the chapter headings)...looks like it's an automotive e-text book, rather than a patent application, so almost certainly copywritten in some way...20:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
:: I suspected as much.  We have 180 links tot hat site right now.  I guess I might need to remove a few... <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 21:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
::: Based on the subject matter of most of the stuff on the tpub site, my guess is that the originals are US Government training manuals... fwiw.. --[[User:Versageek|<span style="color:midnightblue">Versa</span>]][[User_talk:Versageek|<span style="color:darkred">geek</span>]] 06:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
== Copyvio on [[American Conservative Union]] ==

{{resolved|copyvios removed, warnings issued}}
I'm about to go to bed and just don't have any time to fix this right now.  I was wondering if one of my colleagues could address the significant copyvio at [[American Conservative Union]].  The copied text can be found [http://www.conservative.org/about/default.asp here].  Thanks a lot.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;">[[User:Gonzo_fan2007|<span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span>]] ''[[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007#top|<span style="color:#191970;">(talk)</span>]] @ ''</span> 04:56, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

:I reverted back to the non-copyvio version.  The copyvios were added by [[User:Jluch]] after January 12, 2009.  The user has been warned.  Resolving this as it looks like all is cleaned up.  --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 05:44, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks a lot Jayron32.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;">[[User:Gonzo_fan2007|<span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span>]] ''[[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007#top|<span style="color:#191970;">(talk)</span>]] @ ''</span> 12:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
== RfAr Re : Bishzilla ==

Details of the outcome for the request for arbitration named above can be found at the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard|Arbitration Committee Noticeboard]].

''For the Arbitration Committee,''<br> [[User:Mailer diablo|Mailer Diablo]] 14:51, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
== Administrator recall proposals ==

Hello, everyone. I would like to invite attention to a new proposal for administrator recall that I along with a group of other editors (most actively [[User:Jennavecia]] and [[User:WereSpielChequers]]) have been working on recently at '''[[User:Hersfold/Admin recall]]'''. Additionally, there is another (less involved) proposal by [[User:EVula]] at [[User:EVula/opining/RfA overhaul]]. Most of the discussion for that proposal is taking place at [[Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship#EVula.27s_ideal_RfA_process]] and the subsequent subsections. Thank you for your time, and any comments on either proposal would be greatly appreciated. ''Cross-posted at [[WP:VPR]]'' [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 07:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
* And I am sure that, as usual, it will be voted down, because there is no known way of stopping grudge-bearers and POV-pushers from rounding up a lynch mob.  Just imagine the epic shitstorms that would arise if the warring factions on homeopathy were to be able to initiate this kind of procedure - and be in absolutely no doubt whatsoever that we would see precisely that: determined efforts to desysop every single admin who ever stood up to any POV-pushing at all. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 21:38, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

* And I am sure that, as usual, it will be voted down, because turkeys don't vote for Christmas. (but Guy's point is just as valid and is a realistic take on what would actually happen) --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 21:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
* What Guy said. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 21:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

:*I would invite you to take a look at the proposal, then - you'll notice that my proposal has some precautions built in to help prevent that sort of thing from happening, precautions that I believe will work if they are given a chance. Please do not dismiss this out-of-hand based only on what you've seen previous proposals do. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 22:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
::* And there was me thinking that Elonka had already committed to the existing system :o)  Actually, though, I have seen no evidence that genuinely abusive admins are let off by ArbCom, and the independence of ArbCom is a very good guarantee against lynch mobs.  The main complainants seem to be those whose major beef is that some admin had the unmitigated gall to disagree with them or - worse still - block their sock farm.  <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 23:50, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
:::One person mad at you: content dispute. Ten mad at you? Time for a block. Fifty people mad at you? It's a lynch mob! [[User:Aunt Entropy|Aunt Entropy]] ([[User talk:Aunt Entropy|talk]]) 15:26, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't particularly support any sort of forced admin recall procedure.  ArbCom generally already does a good enough job dealing with admins who are seriously deserving of desysopping.  As for others who aren't great, but still have the "mop", at least the situation is still far better here than in, say, real world governance.  --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;">'''Cyde Weys'''</span>]] 00:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
*The issue is not just the possibility of an abusive use of the process.  The fundamental question is why those who seek a mandatory admin recall process believe that our dispute resolution processes apply to everyone except administrators.  Both of these two proposals share the same problem as all previous ones--they do not require any attempt either to discuss the problem or to gather a wider consensus about it before assuming that the administrator's competence or good faith must be challenged.  One of the most disturbing trends in this project is that administrators who make mistakes are assumed to make them for nefarious reasons by large numbers of people.  What we need is a dispute resolution system that allows debate about the action without turning into an assault upon the person who made the decision.  These proposals (like all recall proposals) are the opposite. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 01:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

:Um, actually the proposal in my userspace does clearly state "''A request for recall should be made '''after several attempts to address the situation with the administrator both personally on their talk page and through dispute resolution have been attempted''' and failed to address the issue.''" If you'd like me to put that into wiki-legalese, I can, but I would think it's unnecessary.
:I would also point out that the purpose of these proposals is mainly to get a way for RfA editors to lower their standards, resulting in ''more'' administrators. '''All of the concerns brought up here are addressed in the proposal, which is making me think people aren't bothering to actually objectively read them before commenting.''' [[WP:AGF|Assume good faith]], please; I'm an admin too. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 04:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

::I have never commented on an administrator recall procedure but I think it's a good idea.  First off, arbitrators take cases that are in urgent need, they don't take cases if there isn't an urgent need that I am aware of.  But there are some administrators who feel powerful and even an RFC goes wrong.  I think a recall procedure is the best way to go esp. if there is an administrator that has lost the faith and trust of the community.  I think what is written in the new proposal has some teeth in it and covers things to prevent abuse.  It's unfortunate that right now it is set up as voluntary to sign up for this.  Even if an administrator has signed up for a recall the way it is now, it is mostly ignored.  Just like mediation needs the acceptance of all involved this just doesn't work in my opinion.  If the community is smart enough to accept an administrator then isn't the community just as smart to decide if an administrator should give up their position?  I think they are, thus there is a need for this.  Just my humble opinion, --[[User:Crohnie|<span style="color:purpled">'''Crohnie'''</span><span style="color:deeppink">'''Gal'''</span>]][[User talk:Crohnie|<span style="color:deepskyblue"><sup>Talk</sup></span>]] 12:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
::(Addressing Hersfold above): I have read your proposal.  Yes, it is better than the others.  No, it does not justify why this process is needed in the first place.  No one has ever provided any evidence that the reason RfA standards have gone up is that it is too hard to desysop people, and even if that were true I think of it is a perception issue--it's actually not nearly as hard to desysop people as is generally thought; it's just that most of what is considered "abuse" is in fact an honest mistake, often mitigated by a lot of good admin work.  I'm sorry you think I'm not assuming good faith--on the contrary, Hersfold, I recognize that your intentions here are good.  But I think your premises are flawed. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 16:22, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
:: Hersfold, your good faith is not in doubt. Quite the opposite. I simply think that this proposal is the triumph of hope over experience, at a number of levels. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 18:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

:::@ Chick Bowen & Guy: My apologies for misunderstanding, then; thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, I don't see any other way to get more admins through RfA - a lot of attempts to restructure it, or at least lower the standards, have failed. These proposals don't have any better of a success rate, but it's at least something to try. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 05:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
== Urgent Administrative Action- Egregious Misinformation in Blocked Info Box ==

Dear Wikipedia Editors,

This is my third request for edits to the InfoBox on the article of William J. Agee. It is my understanding that only an Administrator can change this page. The details of my request follow here. For emphasis: Executives world wide have been married multiple times and their ex-wives are not listed by name in their Bios.  This situation involves an annulled marriage so the mention of Diane is even more unacceptable. An annulled marriage never existed in the first place. Please promptly remove the reference to Diane in Mr. Agee's Info Box as well as the reference to having 5 children.  Thank you.

Details of my earlier email follow here.

Dear Wickipedia Adminstrators, 

I am writing to you about article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Agee that needs immediate attention.

When I was unable to correct errors in an Info box (positioned under the photograph) due to access being restricted, I requested (on 2/23) a review by an Administrator following normal procedures.  I offered a detailed explanation in My Talk.

From what I could understand in reading Revision History, an administrator, MGGJ, on 2/24 appeared to accept an assignment to edit this box.  Weeks have passed and there is no evidence that this review has happened.

I have been watching this article over the course of many months to ensure that estranged family members with a vindictive POW, cease and desist in their mission.  Their tactics have included the addition of libelous, inaccurate and inappropriate material -- which over the course of time is now removed.  With the mention by name of the woman from whom he has an annulled marriage, they appear to be back again sabatoging as they find a way to.

I requested removal of mention of a 1st "wife" of an annulled marriage (which by Wiki definition means that the marriage never existed in the first place.)  Accepting that definition, listing a "spouse" from that non-existent marriage as divorced is a misstatement of fact.  The same is true for including the number of children from this non-marriage in a person's professional biography.

Specifically, the name Diane should be removed and number of children reported as 2 or not reported at all.  

Will someone with the authority to do so, please review this Personal Info Box as soon as possible.

Three questions:

Have I done what I need to do to make this request properly?  
When will an Administrator visit my notes and consider my edits?   
What sort of communication can I expect that lets me know this has been done?

Thank you so much for your help.

Grateful41
[[User:Grateful41|Grateful41]] ([[User talk:Grateful41|talk]]) 20:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

:Hello Grateful41, thank you for raising this with us and sorry for the difficulty you've had trying to address this.

:On the issue of removing details concerning your alleged first wife and children, the existence of these would seem to be supported by a cited source, and you don't seem to be contesting. So ordinarily, there would not be much of a case for removing relevant, reliably sourced material like this. However, we have a rather stringent [[WP:BLP|policy concerning material about living persons]], and its privacy clause sanctions omitting this sort of material, so I have gone ahead and removed it on grounds of a presumption in favour of privacy.

:As to your three questions:
::There is no single proper way to make a request like this; we usually recommend starting with the talkpage of the article in question ([[Talk:William Agee]] in this case) and escalating to a problem-resolution noticeboard like [[WP:BLPN|the biographies of living persons noticeboard]], but in practice the adminisrators' noticeboards are fine too. I would recommend in future if you have specific requests or problems about controversial material you send an email to info-en-q@wikimedia.org; that way our most experienced administrators will be on hand to quickly resolve it.

::I have visited your notes and considered your edits.

::I will leave a note on [[User talk:Grateful41|your talk page]] directing you here. Alternatively, you can [[WP:WATCHLIST|watchlist]] pages of interest to track changes.

:Hope this helps,

:[[user talk:Skomorokh|<span style="color: black;"><font face="New York">Skomorokh</font></span>]] 21:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)