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== Backlog at RFPP ==

There's a bit of a backlog at [[WP:RFPP]] at the moment – can anyone take a look? Thank you! –[[User:FlyingAce|FlyingAce]]<sup>[[User talk:FlyingAce|✈hello]]</sup> 16:28, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:There wouldn't be a backlog if people actually knew what they were doing. Out of 16 lodged requests, 25% of them have been declined immediately; others, such as [[Rocket League]], will be, because of a distinct lack of egregious recent editing. Not only does sloppy filing add to the workload of patrolling admins, but the artificial creation of an extra long page doubtless puts off those who otherwise might be willing to join them. Happy days. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 16:51, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::True... At least the one I was keeping an eye on ([[Anne Marie Morris]]) has been taken care of. Back to vandal chasing... –[[User:FlyingAce|FlyingAce]]<sup>[[User talk:FlyingAce|✈hello]]</sup> 17:14, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:::It may be time to start warning people who consistently request page protection too early. I have noticed some repeat offenders. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 23:31, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::::The number of repeat offenders has dropped though. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]], [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Sunasuttuq]] 22:09, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
:8 requests left. [[User:Samsara|Samsara]] 19:19, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
::Cleared, for now. [[User:Samsara|Samsara]] 23:28, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

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==Another backlog==
...at [[WP:UAA]]. 11 cases outstanding. [[User:My name is not dave|<sup style="color:#093">My name is</sup><small style="color:#4000FF">not</small><sup style="color:#093">dave</sup>]] <small>([[User talk:My name is not dave|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/My name is not dave|contribs]])</small> 18:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

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== Rev-del request ==
{{atop|Done. By {{noping|KrakatoaKatie}}. [[User:Amortias|Amortias]] ([[User talk:Amortias|T]])([[Special:Contributions/Amortias|C]]) 19:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Would an admin please rev-del [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:5_albert_square&diff=790017967&oldid=790006441 this] edit? Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:1C0:101:DA19:5C50:CA04:F35F:9FA|2601:1C0:101:DA19:5C50:CA04:F35F:9FA]] ([[User talk:2601:1C0:101:DA19:5C50:CA04:F35F:9FA|talk]]) 03:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{Done}} by {{noping|KrakatoaKatie}}. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 09:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

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== Martin Poulter ==
{{Archive top|Handled at [[WP:PERM]]. Note: unlike most other flags, nomination of others for autopatrol is frequent at PERM. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:12, 11 July 2017 (UTC)}}
It seems odd to me that [[User:MartinPoulter]] is not an "autopatrolled" editor. He is a former board member of Wikimedia UK, Wikimedian in Residence at the University of Oxford's Bodleian Library, a UK Wikimedian of the year - and, of course, a long-term editor in good standing. Please can someone rectify this unfortunate oversight? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 11:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
:If he asks for it, he will probably get it; I see no reason for a third party to request it for him. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 12:47, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
::Requested at [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_permissions/Autopatrolled]]. Thanks for the suggesion, Andy. [[User:MartinPoulter|MartinPoulter]] ([[User talk:MartinPoulter|talk]]) 13:09, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|MartinPoulter}} I've assigned it to you. Cheers, <b style="font-family:Papyrus;">[[User:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d80ad;">Anarchyte</span>]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d5fad;">work</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d5fad;">talk</span>]])</small></b> 13:39, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
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== Request to create redirect with blacklisted title ==

[[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects#Redirect request: Marine Midland Corporation]] is a reasonable redirect request (mentioned in article). Can any admin accept it? [[User:Feminist|<span style="color:DarkMagenta">f</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Feminist|<span style="color:DarkMagenta">e</span>]][[User talk:Feminist|<span style="color:DarkMagenta">minist</span>]] 10:08, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{ping|Feminist}} There is some kind of invisible character in there. [[Marine Midland Corporation]] is not blacklisted. &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>([[User:MSGJ|MSGJ]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:MSGJ|talk]])</small> 10:12, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
::Ah, I see. Thanks. Created. [[User:Feminist|<span style="color:DarkMagenta">f</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Feminist|<span style="color:DarkMagenta">e</span>]][[User talk:Feminist|<span style="color:DarkMagenta">minist</span>]] 10:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

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== Article move request ==
{{archive top|result= Done. [[User:Alex Shih|Alex Shih]][[User_talk:Alex Shih|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 01:02, 14 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Hi, Could someone move [[Mark Fischbach]] back to Markiplier, [[Seán McLoughlin (YouTuber)]] back to Jacksepticeye and [[Evan Fong]] to [[VanossGaming]]- Both were moved without any consensus and unfortunately the system doesn't allow me to move them back, I know I should ask at RM but this would be alot quicker, Thanks, –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 00:32, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
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== Removal of specific permissions ==

I am requesting removal of account creator, new page reviewer, and page mover rights. If I need to perform tasks in the future that require these rights, I will request them again at that time, however I do not now see myself using them any time soon. Thank you. [[User:Waggie|Waggie]] ([[User talk:Waggie|talk]]) 05:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{done}}. Have a great day {{U|Waggie}}. <b style="font-family:Papyrus;">[[User:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d80ad;">Anarchyte</span>]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d5fad;">work</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d5fad;">talk</span>]])</small></b> 06:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

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== Backlog at [[WP:AFD]] ==
{{atop|1=Boom! <span style="font-size:12pt;color:white;background:black;padding:0 3px;"><big>☺</big>&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User:Salvidrim!|<span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;"><span style="color:white">Salvidrim!</span></span>]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:Salvidrim|<span style="color:white">&#9993;</span>]]</span> 14:16, 14 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Could some admin check [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old/Open AfDs]]? I handled most AFDs which ended in the last three days but some of them I can't do because I participated or feel too biased to handle them. Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="color: #7A2F2F; font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color: #474F84; font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]]''' 07:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

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== Revdel needed ==
{{archive top|result= Done and dusted. <b style="font-family:Papyrus;">[[User:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d80ad;">Anarchyte</span>]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d5fad;">work</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d5fad;">talk</span>]])</small></b> 08:46, 14 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Could I have a revdel to IP's edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baby_Driver&type=revision&diff=790523289&oldid=790519828 here] please. It contains a link to a pirated copy of a film. Thanks <span style="background:Black">[[User:Nordic Nightfury|<span style="color:White;">'''Nördic'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Nordic Nightfury|<span style="color:Black;">'''Nightfury'''</span>]] 08:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
:Done. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 08:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

::{{u|Boing! said Zebedee}} The IP's other edits also need revdel-ing. If you wouldn't mind :) <span style="background:Black">[[User:Nordic Nightfury|<span style="color:White;">'''Nördic'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Nordic Nightfury|<span style="color:Black;">'''Nightfury'''</span>]] 08:38, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
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== CSD criteria U1 and U2 ==

Hi there, this is a question for administrators which requires no action, so I'm guessing this is the right place rather than [[WP:ANI|ANI]]. I've had an account for some years - call it [[User:Omega]] - and about a year ago I renamed it to, say, [[User:Upsilon]]. I did not do this under any kind of cloud, and soon afterwards I re-registered the Omega account while logged in as Upsilon in order to prevent it from being taken. I realise that the log entry that says I registered Omega while logged in as Upsilon is a permanent part of the log, but nonetheless I am considering putting in requests under CSD criteria U1 and U2 to delete the user and user talk pages for Omega which currently redirect to Upsilon. I am also considering a similar request for a talk page archive, maintained by a bot, which contains only talk page discussions addressed to Omega.

So, my question is, would admins be willing to action all three of these requests? Also, if these requests are actioned, will my edits for the purpose for placing the CSD templates disappear from user contributions?

Thank you in advance. [[Special:Contributions/2605:6000:E947:A00:80BE:BFEB:6CE9:D1F3|2605:6000:E947:A00:80BE:BFEB:6CE9:D1F3]] ([[User talk:2605:6000:E947:A00:80BE:BFEB:6CE9:D1F3|talk]]) 19:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:Second question first: when a page is deleted, all edits made to that page disappear from your contributions, but without deleting a page, all edits to that page remain in your contributions.  Meanwhile, since the log specifically says that Y created Ω, I would be happy to treat all these requests by Y as if they were being made by Ω.  This means that I'd readily delete User:Ω, because I'd do this for anyone if it weren't some drastically bad-faith situation, but it means that I wouldn't delete User talk:Ω or its archives, because it's important to maintain a continuity of links from pages where you had reason to leave a signature.  Unless the user accounts need to be 100% separated, it wouldn't be right to break things, but anyway the user creation log demonstrates that the accounts aren't separate: in my opinion, either you need to leave User talk:Ω alone, or you need to register another account without any logged entries.  You can make U1-related requests off-wiki if you want to maintain the 100% separation.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 22:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
*Just an additional thought to Nyttend's comments. If <nowiki>[[User talk:Omega]]</nowiki> is still only a redirect to <nowiki>[[User talk:Upsilon]]</nowiki> or if there is nothing of any importance on it now, and its archives were made by copying rather than renaming the talk page, then all of <nowiki>[[User talk:Omega]]</nowiki>'s relevant history should now be in the history of <nowiki>[[User talk:Upsilon]]</nowiki> as a result of the rename - and so I think it might be safe to delete <nowiki>[[User talk:Omega]]</nowiki> and its archives. The point about maintaining a continuity of links from pages where you had reason to leave a signature is an interesting one, but I'm not sure policy demands it - links from old sigs are surely already lost if a user renames their account and then someone else registers an account in the old name. (Links from article contributions are needed for copyright purposes, but the renaming will have taken care of that.) 605:6000:E947:A00:80BE:BFEB:6CE9:D1F3, if you want to send me an email from your current account and identify the actual accounts in question, I'll be happy to have a look and let you know what I think can be deleted. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 11:06, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Request to replace p tags ==
{{atop|1=Nobody's opposing the idea to replace p tags, but nobody needs consensus on AN for that; Magioladitis would've needed it, but there is '''strong consensus here against that''' (and he's since been blocked anyways). <span style="font-size:12pt;color:white;background:black;padding:0 3px;"><big>☺</big>&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User:Salvidrim!|<span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;"><span style="color:white">Salvidrim!</span></span>]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:Salvidrim|<span style="color:white">&#9993;</span>]]</span> 04:29, 14 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Thera are 130 pages that contains a p tag. In most cases we should use simpler wiki markups in place of these HTML-like tags. See [[MOS:MARKUP]] and [[WP:Deviations]]. I would like to fix that from my normal account using WPCleaner (or AWB) or by my bot account using Autosave mode. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 18:27, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:: If you mean <nowiki> <p> </p> </nowiki>, that's a simple tag, wouldn't changing that be a cosemtic change ? <span style="border: 1px solid #666666;">[[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="background: #000000; color: gold;">&nbsp;К Ф Ƽ Ħ&nbsp;</span>]][[User_talk:KoshVorlon|<span style="background: #ffffff; color:#000000;">'''Speak'''</span>]]</span> 19:25, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{rto|KoshVorlon}} - it would indeed be disallowed per cosmeticbot .. unless there is a community consensus.  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 19:46, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

No problem with this .. but probably best from a bot account to not annoy editor's watchlists (which will hardly happen with 130 pages though).  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 19:46, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:I agree with [[User:Xaosflux]] below, that from that bot account you would need first to go through a BFRA.  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 19:57, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''SNOW Oppose to main account''' Seeing as you are under a [[Special:PermaLink/789518720#User:Magioladitis_high_speed_editing|editing restriction]] from using (semi)automation tools on your editor account until at least September 7th - no way, come back in 2 months after you request to get your ban removed.  As far as creating a new bot task, assuming you develop consensus here this would still need a BRFA filed. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 19:51, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

*'''Heavyweight oppose'''.  {{!xt|"fix that from my normal account using AWB"}}<sup>[[Special:Diff/789807112|S:D/789807112]]</sup>  There is a ''minimum'' of two months before the ban on AWB use on the main account can even be ''appealed'', nevermind any possibility of whether it is lifted or not.  —[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] ([[User talk:Sladen|talk]]) 20:09, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
::Re: [[User:Sladen|Sladen]],  [[User:Xaosflux]]  I am not requesting to do this '''right now'''. I can start in 58 days. Recall that these discussions tend to usually last a month. So, I started the discussion early enough. [[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] In a previous BRFA I was asked first to come here. In fact, it was Xaosflux who asked first the discussion here to end before approving a BRFA. (I am refrring to the invisible characters case/discussion which is still active above. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/Yobot_55&diff=787759894&oldid=787730865 here].  -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 21:32, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Geez, stop with these requests. Go and edit an article '''''by hand''''', why don't you, it'll remind you how the other half lives. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 22:24, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
::::[[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] True but as you may have just noticed, someonee may arue this is not appropriate. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 23:11, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

:::And to be clear, according to your restriction 07SEP is the EARLIEST a future appeal of yours could expire, your current restriction has no expiration.  You certainly can propose a new bot task, and this discussion could show if there is community support for such a task. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 22:59, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' as a standalone edit. I can't think of any compelling reason to do this other than to say we did it. I don't think it inappropriate to start these discussions while the ban is on, as long as the number of them open at any one time is reasonable and as long as the operator understands consensus here wouldn't override the ban. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 22:38, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
::This task affects small screens Moreover, this CHECKWIKI task which I thought you would stay away. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 23:19, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
::{{U|BU Rob13}} in the discussion I did not claim I will do with with AWB durng the restiction period. My restriction is resticted to AWB and not for my bot account neither. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 23:23, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Actually, the restriction is any semi-automated editing including AWB, but that's beside the point. I'm stating that this discussion is ''fine'', contrary to what others have said above. I'm agreeing with you on that much, so I'm not sure why you're responding to my statement. We've been over exactly what my recusal from CHECKWIKI for BAG means, so I'm not responding to that again. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 23:41, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ec}} {{U|Magioladitis}}, the wording is wider: "{{!xt|…AWB or any other semi-automated or automated editing tools (broadly construed)…}}"<sup>[[Special:PermaLink/789518720#User:Magioladitis_high_speed_editing]]</sup>  —[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] ([[User talk:Sladen|talk]]) 23:43, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] Thanks for pointing this out. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 23:45, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

'''Comment''' I added WPCleaner as an option fo how this can be done. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 23:27, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

*'''Question''' I've checked [[MOS:MARKUP]] and [[WP:Deviations]].  What's the benefit of getting rid of &lt;p> tagging?  Is &lt;p> being deprecated, comparable to things like &lt;center>?  However, I'm also not exactly clear what you want to do instead.  Are you just looking to use &lt;br />, or to add line breaks, or something like that?  If so, I'm fine with the idea itself, since indeed it's in line with MARKUP and Deviations.  However, I don't understand why it's a problem to do it manually; just open up a bunch of tabs and make the changes in batches.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 23:25, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
::[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] Sure. I can do it manually but I am afraid that there will still be reactions everytime I try to do something systematically. No rason to do this via AWB. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 23:29, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Everyone uses tabbed browsing (Willy on Wheels was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=9419812 using it] twelve years ago!); why would someone object that you'd [[WP:NOTBURO|followed the wrong procedure]]?  Just do a bunch of Ctrl+F work and copy/paste your edit summary, and if someone complains at you, point them to your contributions and show them how there's a time lag between each batch, the result of you closing the first batch, opening the second, and performing the changes before you save them all.  If people doesn't believe that, they're the problems, not you.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 23:46, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
::::{{re|Nyttend}} as to why this a procedure concern see: [[Wikipedia:Editing restrictions]] (''search for username'') - there has been some prior challenges with this editor. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 00:38, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::I was already aware of that; your edits to this section already made your opinion rather blatantly clear.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
*My suggestion to topic ban them from automated editing outright aint seeming so ridiculous now is it. Countdown to next request in 5, 4, 3.... [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 07:49, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' bot editing per [[WP:COSMETICBOT]]. '''Oppose''' this editor making changes in any form because of their editing restrictions and especially in light of the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Magioladitis|arbitration case]] that only closed a little about 4 months ago. Yes this is the prescribed avenue of requesting the change, however given previous drama, it would be best if Magioladitis dropped this issue full stop and walked away.  This is only asking for trouble.  No objection to cleaning these up in the cause of a substantial change to the page that improves it by an uninvolved user (and without prompting by Mag). If nothing else I suggest making it abundantly clear to Mag: Stay away from any cosmetic changes entirely for an extended period of time to demonstrate you can understand the difference between a cosmetic edit and one that has existing consensus. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 12:20, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
== Site ban for Nate Speed ==
{{atop|1=The user who operated the account {{u|Nate Speed}} and others (see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Nate Speed/Archive|SPI]]) is now sitebanned by the community. <span style="font-size:12pt;color:white;background:black;padding:0 3px;"><big>☺</big>&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User:Salvidrim!|<span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;"><span style="color:white">Salvidrim!</span></span>]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:Salvidrim|<span style="color:white">&#9993;</span>]]</span> 14:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)}}
I just received a death threat via email from a sock puppet of [[User:Nate Speed]] (see also {{diff2|790485224|this diff}}).  I think it's time we site banned this person.  Besides the extensive edit warring and sock puppetry, I'm not the only one to receive harassing emails.  There are other complaints [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Nate Speed/Archive|in the sock puppetry case archive]].  I've reported him to the emergency contact at the Wikimedia Foundation and forwarded the death threat, so, if we're lucky, he will be facing some kind of repercussions for this behavior.  Normally, in a case where someone will never be unblocked, I'd say the difference between blocking and banning someone is mostly semantics.  However, sending me death threats changes my feelings on the matter.  I want to make sure this editor is never unblocked and knows that his behavior is not tolerated by the community.  I also have some possibly futile hope that if his death threats continue, it will make some kind of difference if he's listed as "banned", rather than "blocked" when it comes time to assess whether to escalate the situation beyond the WMF. [[User:NinjaRobotPirate|NinjaRobotPirate]] ([[User talk:NinjaRobotPirate|talk]]) 01:44, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

*'''Support site ban''' Geez, enough already. Sorry you're going through that, NRP. <span style="color: #9932CC">[[:User:KrakatoaKatie|Katie]]<sup>[[User talk:KrakatoaKatie|talk]]</sup></span> 01:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support ban''' There's absolutely no place for this in the least. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 02:13, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support site ban''' Such outright bullying needs to be dealt with in the harshest manner.[[User:TH1980|TH1980]] ([[User talk:TH1980|talk]]) 02:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Have also received death threats from this person. [[User:Sro23|Sro23]] ([[User talk:Sro23|talk]]) 02:23, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' By all means. <span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">[[User:General Ization|<span style="color:#006633;">General <i>Ization</i></span>]]</span> <sup>''[[User talk:General Ization|<span style="color:#000666;">Talk  </span>]] ''</sup> 02:27, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' This kind of behavior should never be tolerated. [[User:SkyWarrior|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:forestgreen">''Sky''</span>]][[User talk:SkyWarrior|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:forestgreen">''Warrior''</span>]] 02:33, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/169.51.72.247 By the way...] [[User:SkyWarrior|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:forestgreen">''Sky''</span>]][[User talk:SkyWarrior|<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;color:forestgreen">''Warrior''</span>]] 02:42, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support site ban''' and I sincerely hope the WMF takes this to the authorities or further. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 02:37, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support site ban'''. [[User:FreeKnowledgeCreator|FreeKnowledgeCreator]] ([[User talk:FreeKnowledgeCreator|talk]]) 02:37, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I've run into this user so much and they have threatened me and many others countless times. —'''[[User:MRD2014|<span style="color:red">MRD</span>]][[User talk:MRD2014|<span style="color:green">20</span>]][[Special:Contribs/MRD2014|<span style="color:blue">14</span>]]''' 02:48, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support site ban''' Treating ones fellow editors in such a manner is contemptible. [[User:MarnetteD|MarnetteD]]&#124;[[User talk:MarnetteD|Talk]] 02:54, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Just had to block another IP for block evasion. <b style="font-family:Papyrus;">[[User:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d80ad;">Anarchyte</span>]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d5fad;">work</span>]] &#124; [[User talk:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#0d5fad;">talk</span>]])</small></b> 03:03, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''', clearly. But am I the only one who finds it kind of weirdly amusing that he self-censors his own curse words? &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 03:06, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
::<small>And ends each profane summary with a smiley (frowney?) wearing a funny hat. <span style="font-family: Gill Sans MT, Arial, Helvetica; font-weight:140;">[[User:General Ization|<span style="color:#006633;">General <i>Ization</i></span>]]</span> <sup>''[[User talk:General Ization|<span style="color:#000666;">Talk  </span>]] ''</sup> 03:27, 14 July 2017 (UTC)</small>
*'''Support'''.  Very clear-cut case. [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 03:13, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. [[User:Ks0stm|<span style='color:green;'>'''Ks0stm'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Ks0stm|T]]•[[Special:Contribs/Ks0stm|C]]•[[:en:User:Ks0stm/G|G]]•[[:en:User:Ks0stm/E|E]])</sup> 03:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Obvious. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 03:37, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Disagreement ==

Hello. We have a disagreement with User:Robsinden. He thinks that articles like [[1969–70 European Cup]] and [[1969–70 European Cup Winners' Cup]] should not be included in navboxes of this kind: [[Template:1969–70 in Spanish football]], [[Template:1969–70 in Scottish football]], [[Template:1969–70 in English football]], [[Template:1969–70 in Cypriot football]]. Please see [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 July 10#Cyprus football templates]] and [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 June 28#Template:1958–59 in Cypriot football]]. Maybe he is correct, maybe not. But I disagree with him. I have told him to discuss the issues with other users that are familiar with sports articles and users that are familiar with templates to say their opinion. But, he continue to remove the links from the Cyprus templates, (while he is not removing them from the templates of other countries even though he believe that they must be removed). Is that a right behavior? It will be more correct to have a discussion first about the subject with others users before he remove the links, just because that is his opinion? Thank you for your time. [[User:Xaris333|Xaris333]] ([[User talk:Xaris333|talk]]) 16:07, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

:{{replyto|Xaris333}} If there is a content dispute, please use the appropriate forum, i.e. talk pages or [[WP:DRN]]. Input from interested editors might also be requested at [[WT:FOOTY]]. See [[WP:DR]] for detailed instructions. As stated above, this page is only for general notices, not specific problems. Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="color: #7A2F2F; font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color: #474F84; font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]]''' 16:12, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

== Review my block of {{user|Srwikieditor}} ==
Hi, all! I blocked [[User:Srwikieditor|Srwikieditor]] as a single purpose account whose sole purpose over the last '''3.5 years''' has been to force links to a single website onto several aviation related templates. Srwikieditor was warned by {{user|Kuru}} at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Srwikieditor&oldid=662435950  11:22, 15 May 2015‎] that they would be blocked if s/he continue the spamming behavior. 

Srwikieditor twice added the link to {{tl|US-airport-ga}} after Kuru's final warning:
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:US-airport-ga&diff=prev&oldid=697432045  13:53, 30 Dec. 2015] and 
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:US-airport-ga&diff=789741082&oldid=787229790 08:01, 9 July 2017].

I don't expect this to be a particularly controversial block, but I'm not very active these days and I was involved in the discussions opposing the link so it's here for the eyes of judgment. Feel free to adjust as anybody sees fit or not at all! Best, --[[User:AuburnPilot|<span style="color:#000080;">auburn</span><span style="color:#CC5500;">pilot</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 22:25, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

==Adminstats==
I've long had an adminstats section on [[User:Jimfbleak#Admin_stats|my talk page]]. It now reads '''Jimfbleak is not an administrator or an account creator. Therefore they have been disallowed the use of adminstats.''' I assumed that this was passing vandalism, but if it is, it's too subtle for me to see what's wrong, since the code looks OK. The actual [[User:JamesR/AdminStats|adminstats page]] lists me, so I'd be grateful if anyone can work out what's happening, thanks [[User:Jimfbleak|<b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b>]] - [[User talk:Jimfbleak|<span style="font-family:arial;color:green"><i>talk to me?</i></span>]] 15:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:I've been pointed to [[User talk:NeilN/Archive 37#Administrator_or_not? ]], so it's clearly a known problem, no need to reply [[User:Jimfbleak|<b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b>]] - [[User talk:Jimfbleak|<span style="font-family:arial;color:green"><i>talk to me?</i></span>]] 15:25, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::{{ec}} That's just the bot hiccupping, happens every few weeks. What you mean though is [[Template:Adminstats/Jimfbleak]], not [[User:JamesR/AdminStats]], which is a different page. I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Adminstats/Jimfbleak&diff=789934628&oldid=789870918 fixed it] for you, tomorrow the bot should run fine again (see the page's history for what I mean). If it happens again, just undo the last edit by the bot until it works properly again. Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="color: #7A2F2F; font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color: #474F84; font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]]''' 15:28, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:::'''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="color: #7A2F2F; font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]]''', many thanks for the above and the heads-up on my talk [[User:Jimfbleak|<b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b>]] - [[User talk:Jimfbleak|<span style="font-family:arial;color:green"><i>talk to me?</i></span>]] 15:47, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::::And thanks for teaching me to fish too. All the best, [[User:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:navy">Mini</span>''''']][[User_talk:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:#8B4513">apolis</span>''''']] 22:38, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

== Image restore ==

Hi, Could an admin restore [[:File:Some Girls titlecard.png]] please, It was deleted because I used the incorrect license template, I've asked the deleting admin but they've not been on all day so figured I'd ask here, Thanks, –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 23:00, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] has restored it.  FYI, there's a [[WP:REFUND]] page; nothing wrong with asking here, but WP:REFUND is the main place for this kind of request.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 23:15, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks {{u|Cryptic}}, I know but with REFUND they tend to take a few days so thought it was the quickest place to ask but thanks for the tip anyway, Thanks, –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 23:27, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

== Possible spam/edit filter addition ==
* {{LinkSummary|amazon.in}}

Hey there. I'm pretty stupid about how the various filters work, so I'd appreciate some guidance. I have been reverting a lot of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scarlett_Johansson&diff=prev&oldid=789797464 these] edits over that past two weeks or so, always just the one edit by different accounts. Would the specific URL or anything else in there be a good candidate to be blacklisted? --[[User:Bongwarrior|Bongwarrior]] ([[User talk:Bongwarrior|talk]]) 20:42, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
*The url is the most logical since they could change the wording but don't have the power to change that url.  That is a lot of filter, not sure I would run it for longer than needed.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 21:28, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
*{{u|Bongwarrior}}, we need some of those accounts in an SPI report. I can see some of your more recent reverts. We need to have a checkuser see if rangeblocking will halt them. As for the link they are using, that is a good question for [[User:Beetstra|Dirk]], is <nowiki>amazon.in/dp/B01EJQOOU2</nowiki> a url fragment that COIBot/Poke can handle without catching all amazon.in links? This is looking like it is worth blacklisting to me.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 23:54, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
::[[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lovesblackchoco]] is a related SPI filed in June. I've blocked somewhere around thirty, I think, and I'll work on getting a list together. The earliest edits go back to about March. --[[User:Bongwarrior|Bongwarrior]] ([[User talk:Bongwarrior|talk]]) 00:20, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{rto|Berean Hunter}} argh, one of those.  We can blacklist or revertlist individual links and monitor special fragments.  Reporting on them is not possible, it would spit out the whole stuff.  I could in principle run the rather expensive MySQL statement on the db and just give a manual dump (running now).   --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 04:00, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

{{rto|Bongwarrior|Berean Hunter|Dennis Brown}} I've put the MySQL dump in [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam/LinkReports/amazon.in#Requested_dump]] (the related content page is not going to help, too many on this domain).  If they used other domains (amazon.com), please let me know, and please make sure that they are blacklisted appropriately.  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 04:44, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:Awesome. That list of users looks to be exclusively socks. About half are stale but they are easily associated by naming conventions combined with spamming those links. This will save Bongwarrior time looking unless he has more than that report shows. I'll start listing and vetting them tomorrow...I count 54 unique accounts that I have saved in a text editor and I'll check to make sure that we don't net an innocent. Dirk, thank you very much. That expensive SQL query just saved us a great deal of time and we might not have gotten such a nice comprehensive job as this has done.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 05:21, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:That is good stuff, but missing a few accounts that used a different, longer link [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elizabeth_Olsen&diff=prev&oldid=770740343] and a few others from June 26 like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jennifer_Garner&diff=prev&oldid=787581012 this one], which seems to match exactly but wasn't in the report. Either way, this looks like the majority of what I've seen, with quite a few that I wasn't aware of. Thank you all. --[[User:Bongwarrior|Bongwarrior]] ([[User talk:Bongwarrior|talk]]) 07:11, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{Rto|Bongwarrior|Berean Hunter}} The bot has a backlog, so some may not have been parsed yet.  I'll run some varieties of the query later (I had to leave), let's see if more shows up.  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 08:46, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{Rto|Bongwarrior|Berean Hunter}} I've updated the dump, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Spam%2FLinkReports%2Famazon.in&type=revision&diff=789898263&oldid=789871345 diff].  I now looked for the code in any link, there are a handful of additional .com links.  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 10:02, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::[[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Lovesblackchoco|SPI case filed]]. I noticed that the original accounts from the SPI archive were not in the SQL report and I found [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Berean_Hunter/Sandbox&diff=prev&oldid=789979791 one] that wasn't mentioned.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 22:52, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::{{rto|Berean Hunter}} [[:m:LiWa3]] is currently eating away a rather massive backlog (while also still keeping up with current edits).  There may still be more to come (the backlog will likely take LiWa3 a couple of weeks to parse).  I hope you can find the other ones by relation through CU.  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 03:18, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Programs renamed by Modi Government]] - review requested ==

Hi all. Please also see [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Continued_battleground_mentality_of_Joefromrandb|this ANI thread for further information]]. I closed the above AFD and do stand by the closure and the reasoning I gave both at the AFD and at ANI (the conduct of the user who initially reverted the closure was taken to ANI by someone else). On the ANI thread I did note I was happy for an admin to overturn my closure, as I have indeed been off Wikipedia for some time, however, no one has responded, so I am asking here if an admin can please review my closure of this AFD and either overturn the close or endorse the outcome. Thanks. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#078330;">Steven</span>]] [[User talk:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#2875B0;">Crossin</span>]]</span> 02:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' Closure was policy based, also the [[WP:Redirects are cheap|redirects are cheap]]. [[User:Capitals00|Capitals00]] ([[User talk:Capitals00|talk]]) 02:25, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''--While I agree, that it was a ''bad'' NAC (Hey! How did you choose that particular one?!:)), I don't find any reason to ''undo'' a NAC when the closure was ''{{green|seemingly correct}}'' and ''well-thought out''![[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style= "color:green">''Winged Blades''</span>]]<sup>[[User  talk:Winged Blades of Godric| Godric]]</sup>  03:16, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
:*I tend to [[WP:UCS|use common sense]] when editing. I saw the AFD and noticed it had been open for 2 weeks, and was well past the second closure time. I reviewed it, and came to an outcome, as I felt most editors would come to the same conclusion when assessing the consensus, and thus I closed the AFD (as there was no technical impediment from me doing so, such as deletion). I accept that my outcome may have been incorrect, and have asked it to be reviewed here for that reason. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#078330;">Steven</span>]] [[User talk:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#2875B0;">Crossin</span>]]</span> 03:22, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
:'''Commnt''': In [[WP:NAC]], it says that {{tq|[A]ny non-admin close of an RfC '''should not''' be overturned if the only reason is that the closer was not an admin.}} I think the same principle should apply here - if the closure was correct, then don't undo or reopen it. If the result was wrong, deal wit hit due to the result, not the closing user. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 08:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
* Looks like a good policy based close. [[User:Steven Crossin]] I imagine after the disruption your close appears to have created that you will likely avoid closing such complicated/controversial AFDs untill you have the bit/extra tools. I think you would make a great admin, please go for it. [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Steven Crossin]] - [[User:Govindaharihari|Govindaharihari]] ([[User talk:Govindaharihari|talk]]) 14:19, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
:*[[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Steven Zhang|I'd rather hang myself]], haha. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#078330;">Steven</span>]] [[User talk:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#2875B0;">Crossin</span>]]</span> 15:26, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
::Despite hundreds of users who started editing after that RFA are now admins.. [[User:Capitals00|Capitals00]] ([[User talk:Capitals00|talk]]) 15:34, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Oh yes, I have no realistic expectation that I'd ever pass RFA. So I do what I can without the mop. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#078330;">Steven</span>]] [[User talk:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#2875B0;">Crossin</span>]]</span> 16:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
::::That was six years ago. Now the incident is nine years in the past; most current editors probably won't even know about it. You got 124 support !votes back then (including myself), I think you can pass now. You should really consider it. Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="color: #7A2F2F; font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color: #474F84; font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]]''' 10:13, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
*I might have closed it differently, but the close was reasonably within discretion, policy based and sane, so I wouldn't overturn.  I still maintain that policy is clear that controversial discussions should be left to admin, but that isn't a valid reason to overturn a close that is otherwise reasonable.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 16:17, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
*I would not have undone the close had my only objection been the NAC. The main issue I have with it is the fact that it ran afoul of deletion policy. NAC guidelines clearly state that non-admins should only close AfD's where consensus is explicitly clear. This obviously wasn't the case here. Opinions were many and varied. A case where multiple comments need to be sorted and weighed against guidelines is precisely the kind that NAC guidelines instruct should be left to an administrator. I consider this example to be an illustration of why these guidelines should be followed, rather than than a reason to blindly revert. This brings me to deletion policy: "Egregious" would have been a better word for me to have used than "ridiculous". It would have conveyed my meaning without the incendiary undertones that accompany the latter word. Therefore, I'll call this "an egregious non-admin supervote". Make no mistake; this ''was'' a supervote. That doesn't mean the closer had anything other than the best of intentions. It simply means he voted in closing the discussion. My biggest problem with all of this was the fact that he openly and clearly stated that he assigned more weight to the "delete" votes that protested the article's lack of neutrality. That flies in the face of our deletion policy; content disputes are not dealt with by deleting the article. Lack of neutrality is a cause for improvement, discussion, or, if necessary, adding a "disputed" tag at the top. It is not, however, a valid reason for deletion. Assigning more weight to votes that are clearly not policy-based itself clearly contradicts policy. Steven Crossin is clearly intelligent, eloquent, and amiable. It was never my intention to suggest anything to the contrary. My objection to his close was not meant as an attack on his motives, and certainly not on his character. [[User:Joefromrandb|Joefromrandb]] ([[User talk:Joefromrandb|talk]]) 18:02, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
*:I'm not objective here because Steven closed the AfD as I !voted in it but I don't think it was a super!vote per se. It was imho the correct assessment of the various strength of the arguments, including especially [[Wikipedia:Content forking]], the strongest reason mentioned for redirecting/merging. I do agree it was a bad NAC though because the policy is clear that non-admins (for whatever reasons) should not close such AFDs. Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="color: #7A2F2F; font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color: #474F84; font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]]''' 10:20, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
*Redirecting without merging was not proposed by any editor, and now we have a page redirected to one that doesn't mention the subject of the redirect. [[User:Peter James|Peter James]] ([[User talk:Peter James|talk]]) 12:19, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
**Peter James raises a very good point. There's obviously not going to be consensus to overturn the close, but the issue of a page redirecting to an article that doesn't mention the subject will need to be addressed. [[User:Joefromrandb|Joefromrandb]] ([[User talk:Joefromrandb|talk]]) 02:16, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
*Basically per Dennis.  It's not how I would have closed it - the redirect seems still somewhat vulnerable to POV criticism to me - but was policy based, within discretion and should not be overturned.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 15:18, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
*I think that if the only problem you can see with a discussion is that it was an NAC, then you have to let it stand.  I don't see any egregrious issues with the substance of the close that would justify re-starting the <s>drama</s> discussion.  [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] <sup>([[User talk:Lankiveil|speak to me]])</sup> 07:04, 4 July 2017 (UTC).

===A related thought===

While I'm not sure this will go anywhere, I just had a thought and I thought I'd run it by people for reaction which I can take two idea lab if there's any support.

Should we have a concept called "conditional close"? It would be a closing statement by someone who is not an admin in cases where the consensus is not crystal clear and thus otherwise ineligible for NAC. A conditional close would occur in at least two situations:

# A well-established editor such as Steve Crossin, who is substantial clue but no desire to go through the ringer and ask for the mop.
# An editor planning to go for an RFA sometime in the future but not quite yet ready.

In both cases, the close would not be final until an admin reviews and sign off. By constructing the conditional close, the editor is making it easier for the admin to do the review. In case 1 the admin can review the proposed conditional close and simply sign off. In case 2 the same occurs but it also gives the community a chance to see how the perspective admin evaluates the situation. In both cases, if the admin disagrees with a conditional close they should explain the reasoning but in case to they might go into a little bit more detail as part of the learning process.--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#000E2F;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">S Philbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 01:32, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
:This idea flies in the face of [[WP:NAC]], and basically creates yet another level of user-rights: "admin without a mop". I'm curious how any conditional close would make it easier for the closing admin to do the review, unless "review" means "rubber stamp". [[User:Joefromrandb|Joefromrandb]] ([[User talk:Joefromrandb|talk]]) 07:12, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
:By the way, that wasn't meant to be rhetorical; it's a genuine question. Take this case, for example: if these rules were in place, and you were going to close the AfD, in what way would Steven's finding-of-fact have made it easier for you? [[User:Joefromrandb|Joefromrandb]] ([[User talk:Joefromrandb|talk]]) 12:48, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{ping|Joefromrandb}} S Philbrick is essentially proposing that NAC be amended. (Obviously it's not a formal proposal.) Therefore, saying it "flies in the face of WP:NAC" is not a particularly good argument not to do it. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 21:52, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
:::I wouldn't call it "amended". "Nullified" is more like it. [[User:Joefromrandb|Joefromrandb]] ([[User talk:Joefromrandb|talk]]) 23:05, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' - This sounds like clerking at AFD. Putting aside objections to the proposal itself and let's go back a step. The real question is, how regularly are closes challenged such that a clerking process like this would be required? One comment though, if consensus is not crystal clear, then it's better for non admins to just leave it as an admin required close. [[User:Blackmane|Blackmane]] ([[User talk:Blackmane|talk]]) 02:36, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
* I was giving this some thought today, because as you note, I couldn't see myself running for RFA. At the moment we have the ability for non-admins to close RFCs. Is there a reason that non-admins shouldn't be able to close XFD discussions where the outcome does not require the tools (delete). Of course, some safety nets should be considered to ensure that not just anyone can close an XFD, but similar to RFCs, the amount of non-admins that actually would close a discussion is rather small. We have standard processes in place to overturn the outcome of an XFD when the result isn't agreed with, similar to RFCs. Is there an actual reason we can't consider this? <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#078330;">Steven</span>]] [[User talk:Steven Crossin|<span style="color:#2875B0;">Crossin</span>]]</span> 05:29, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
::There is no issue on non-admins closing discussions where tools are not required. If an XFD is a clear redirect result for example. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 09:44, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
::Given all that has been thrown at you, I think you have handled yourself quite well, {{u|Steven Crossin}}. As for closing AFDs, non-admin still can, but it is strongly recommended they avoid contentious AFDs.  That is the only sticking point here.  Often times, it isn't even about being wrong or right in the close, as closing some AFDs will cause a few people to get upset no matter how you close it.  That is exactly the type that we want admin to close.  People are often more willing to accept a contentious close by an admin compared to a non-admin.  I could drone on about the psychology of perceived authority (and how that doesn't guarantee a better close), but in the end, that is just how it is.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 20:49, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

== Mad7744 ==

I've been working [[User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report]] looking for unsuitable pages, but hundreds of very short military bios all created by [[User:Mad7744]] form a good chunk of the entries. Many follow set text like these recent creations [[Draft:Manuel R. Zabala]] [[Draft:Robert H. Thompson]] [[Draft:Walter G. Amerman]] [[Draft:Frank E. Palo Jr.]]. It seems like these names would be best presented on a list together because at least these subjects won an award. Other very old drafts do not even assert anything but that the subject was a solder or airman - [[Draft:Richard Drucks]] [[Draft:Andreas Zink]] [[Draft:Alfred Zuner]] etc. etc. etc. 

Previous attempts to stop this activity have not worked. See examples [[User_talk:Mad7744]] [[User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1]] [[User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_2]] [[User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#Military_biography_articles]], [[User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#Notability_of_subjects_.28reminder.29]], [[User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#Military_biographies]], and an earlier ANi I started [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive923#Short_military_bios_in_Draft] [[User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#ANi_Discussion]] that lead to this post [[User_talk:Mad7744/Archive_1#Freeloading]] to his talk page over a year ago:

::Freeloading
::There is a rule that articles in draft: space which have an -AfC submission- tag may be deleted if they have not been touched for more than six months. Unfortunately there is no rule for articles in that space without the tag but I think that the same rule should apply. Now you have a massive number of such articles. I have put in [[User:Mad7744/drafts]] a list of the 499 oldest of them. Another view is that you could be considered to be using Wikipedia as a free host - 88.8% of your edits are in draft space.
::I want to see a concerted move by you to either request the deletion of these drafts or improve them to article status and get them submitted for approval for mainspace. I note that they survived this recent discussion but If changes do not happen within the next few months, I shall propose a bulk deletion of your drafts. (Legacypac please note.) — [[User:RHaworth]] 15:48, 2 June 2016 (UTC) 

I can't see any effort by the user to address these concerns All the deletions I checked were initiated by other users and I did not find any promotions in my spot checks. User has never touched their talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mad7744&offset=&limit=500&action=history] so not sure how to communicate with them. The  majority of their mainspace creations have been deleted, they stopped using AfC so G13 does not apply to their drafts, and the drafts just keep piling up. 

I hate to suggest this but... I propose an editing BLOCK to get their attention, stop the daily creation of more drafts, and prompt a dialog on their talk page. I also suggest we give consideration to [[User:RHaworth]]'s proposal for bulk deleting these drafts without having to subject each one individually to MfD. Pushing this many drafts through AfC submission or MfD debates is going to be a whole lot of work otherwise. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 17:40, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

UPDATE:  He responded on his talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mad7744&diff=prev&oldid=788672972] with "You can delete every draft article I have made up to November 9th, 2015 but do not delete any draft articles beyond that date. [[User:Mad7744|Mad7744]] ([[User talk:Mad7744#top|talk]]) 20:19, 2 July 2017 (UTC)"  That covers close to 1000 pages [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&offset=20150120211913&limit=500&contribs=user&target=Mad7744&namespace=118&tagfilter=&newOnly=1&start=2013-08-01&end=2015-11-09] assuming none are now redirects. Please don't make me CSD them all individually!  [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 20:38, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
:Working on it. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 21:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::I believe that the two IPs below belong to the same user, as they've been creating and editing same drafts: 
::*[[Special:Contributions/98.229.53.195]] 
::*[[Special:Contributions/73.186.114.106]]

::I suggest that the drafts older than 6 months created by the IPs be included in the group deletion as well. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 21:44, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Should be everything.  I came to the same conclusion with 98.229.53.195; 73.186.114.106 had no edits surviving in Draft:. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 22:48, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

There is good reason that non-draft-tagged pages be not subject to G13 — they're not necessarily drafts.  There's no bright-line way to judge whether one be a draft or not.  If you want to see these pages be deleted, take them to MFD; this isn't the place for a deletion discussion.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 23:22, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::Two archive pages and a talk page worth have already been deleted via MfD or CSD one at a time. That creates very good precedent to deal with these in bulk, and I also brought this here to figure out a way to prevent continued creations. I've asked more questions on his talk and hope to get a response. My note about this report and a possible BLOCK finally got his attention today. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 23:32, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::This may be some sort of [[WP:ADVOCACY]]. See, for example, the "Category:German soldiers" as edited by one of the IPs: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:German_soldiers&oldid=623259922]. Note the suggestion that " All these pages don't exist. To see information on them,click on the page go and click on the talk page on the top left hand corner." I'm not sure what the purpose is, but 95%+ of these drafts are on subjects that do not meet [[WP:SOLDIER]]. For example, the qualifying award for U.S. servicemen would be the Medal of Honor; Distinguished Service Cross does not really help establish their notability. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 00:05, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
::::he just says he's going to update them.  Cryptic just deleted about a 1000 pages and there must be at least as many again (about 1500 it turns out). Many are low rank Nazi German solders, holocast victums, and American privates. Is the goal to cover every WWII participant/victim with a Draft page?  I'm not understanding the modivation to do all this work over 3 years now. It's not like the business spam or autobio pages These subjects are all dead. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 00:28, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
*"There is good reason that non-draft-tagged pages be not subject to G13 — they're not necessarily drafts. There's no bright-line way to judge whether one be a draft or not."{{parabr}}This is clearly down the road of nonsense/madness, when words no longer mean what they mean.  DraftSpace should be *only* for drafts.  If it is not a draft, get it out of DraftSpace.  Userfy, ProjectSpace, or Delete.  I am definitely moving to the position that everything in DraftSpace should be subject to CSD#G13.  (I am approaching the position that DraftSpace as a whole should be [[WP:CSD#G2]]-ed, as a failed test, more work than it is worth, the best thing said about it is that is draws crap page dumps away from mainspace but that's at the expense of an extremely poor editor experience for the newcomers)  --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 04:20, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

===Proposed Restriction===
I tend to have slightly esoteric viewpoints regarding bulk creations in Draft space.  I feel (in order to reduce the disruption) that ''No page shall be created in userspace or draftspace by {{U|Mad7744}} that does not have an AFC review template on it. No page created under this restriction shall be removed from AFC review until such time that this restricton is successfully appealed''.  The goal is to have these pages be improved and promoted to mainspace.  Draft space is supposed to be getting pages ready for mainspace, not a semi-elastic storage.  Reviewers are pretty good about being able to tell which submissions have hope, and which ones should be put out to pasture. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 21:23, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

*'''Support''' sounds like a good plan. I also think we should submit some more drafts to deletion discussion in batches. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 21:34, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
:Looking back at my comment, obviously if a page gets promoted to mainspace the AFC review template is no longer valid because it's been promoted to mainspace.  Not going to disclaim the [[WP:BEANS]] situation as there's already proposals and common sense in place for that. cc {{U|Legacypac}} [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 21:40, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

*'''Support''' restrictions. In addition, I propose that drafts older than 6 months be '''group deleted'''. I did a spot check and none would meet [[WP:SOLDIER]] or any other notability guideline or essay. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 21:48, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

===bulk deletion plan===

::he recently posted on his talk page a comment that we can delete, improve or whatever we want and he is essentially quitting for now. I'm willing to take that as consent to bulk delete if an Admin will take on the big task. [[User:Cryptic]]? Axe any Draft without a credible claim that gets it past [[WP:SOLDIER]] regardless of age? Efforts to deal with this go back 3 years and finally headway. Let's not let this chance pass by. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 21:55, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{U|Legacypac}} Sending a trial balloon up in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Oskar_Zschake-Papsdorf&diff=prev&oldid=789029929] to see if patrolling admins are willing to accept "Per [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mad7744&diff=next&oldid=788950834] author has given approval for deletion. [[WP:SOLDIER]] already considered and found wanting" as a G7 deletion rationalle. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 22:20, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
::Admin [[User:Maile66]] accepted that  CSD {{U|Hasteur}}.  There are almost 1500 more drafts to go according to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=&limit=500&contribs=user&target=Mad7744&namespace=118&tagfilter=&newOnly=1&start=&end=]. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 02:48, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{U|Legacypac}} [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Rudolf Schicketanz]] as the year 2014 bulking launched. I know it's a bit creative way to do the deletion, but I think we can agree to not flood the user's talkpage with 1500 CSD nominations.  Breaking it down into monthly (or submonthly) categories will allow MFD to do it's job, but also keep the user talkpage spam down. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 03:09, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

::Still a lot of work to list 1500 pages at MfD and we don't really need MfD given we have author consent. I agree don't flood the guy's talk. Why not do one CSD for the entire list? Are you thinking we should check page by page before an Admin looks at it? Our spot checks and Cryptic's work show nothing that should be kept. If we can recruit an Admin, they could do this based on this thread.  [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:30, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Although unstated in my comment up above, my original idea was a mass MFD (remember that nominations don't have to be individual; you can always bundle them), or yes you could simply request G7s based on that comment from Mad7744.  Why would we be adding a lot of CSD nominations to the talk page?  If you're thinking of using some sort of semiautomated tagging process that leaves a talk-page note, let me know; I could full-protect his talk page immediately before you start and then unprotect it as soon as you're done, thus keeping his talk page clear.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 11:36, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
::
:::By the way, [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]], see TenPoundHammer's request in the "Speedy deletion" section higher on this page.  Some admins have scripts for mass deletion; perhaps you could ask the admin who responded in that section to come down here.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 11:41, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I've commenced working from the back of the list and doing the CSD nominations by "month/year" grouping so as to not overflow the CSD buckets.  G7 doesn't drop a talk page notice, so that's good and I've updated my twinkle preferences to not add them to my internal CSD log. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 13:46, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
*{{ping|User:BU Rob13}} [[User:BU Rob13]] this situation would be a good use of your script. Delete all Draft space creations still existing by this user (maybe up to 1500 pages). [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 23:36, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
**I could use AWB for the deletions. Are we deleting literally everything created by Mad7744 in the draftspace? Any exceptions if other people edited them? (That would make this much harder.) ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 02:33, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
:::yes wack everything they created in Draft space. No one has found anything yet worth keeping. We got creator consent.  [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 22:24, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{Reply to|BU Rob13}} There are a few redirects from draftspace to different namespaces that probably need to be kept. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 20:28, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
:::* I am happy to take on the task of a bulk deletion. I cannot start immediately because my personal website where the necessary listing tool resides is currently "down". Bear with me - these pages have been there for years so there is no hurry. If you don't see progress within a month, complain bitterly. &mdash; [[User:RHaworth|RHaworth]] ([[User talk:RHaworth|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/RHaworth|contribs]]) 11:01, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
::Wonderful. I'm not looking for them, but tagging them G7 with a link to here as I happen to find them. They still represent about 20% of abandoned drafts [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

== Request to remove invisible characters from pages ==
{{atop|1=I find that there is '''consensus that these changes be performed, and that they must be via a bot account''' (with the occasional "manual" edit being fine); only one opposer (BU Rob13) presents any argument against the task, one opposes (User:Hchc2009) due to not understanding the provided details, and all other opposers object ''solely'' to the edits being done via Magioladitis' non-bot account. This result means that it is up to BAG to decide how to process the open BRFA, and whether to approve the task for Yobot, or for another bot that is not being operated by Magioladitis (considering the ArbCom case request). <span style="font-size:12pt;color:white;background:black;padding:0 3px;">&nbsp;[[User:Salvidrim!|<span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;"><span style="color:white">Salvidrim!</span></span>]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:Salvidrim|<span style="color:white">&#9993;</span>]]</span> 15:30, 19 July 2017 (UTC)}}
I would like to start removing invisible characters from pages. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 14:14, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
:Please provide a lot more details about this and why it is necessary. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
::They can break links and citation templates, but I was sure that Yobot already did such a thing. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]], [[Special:CentralAuth/Jo-Jo Eumerus|contributions]]) 14:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
:::[[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] True but I was asked to request re-approval. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 15:02, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
:::{{U|Xaosflux}} Per CheckWiki documentation "This could be a problem inside an article.", per AutoEd documentation "These characters are hard to remove by hand because they all "invisible", but they can cause problems and unnecessarily increase the page's size.". Inside URLs, images they can break filenames and urls, etc. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 15:06, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
'''Oppose in general'''. No opposition for fixing things that are broken (the URLs, broken images, etc.), but I would likely oppose removing an invisible character in some other random space that isn't causing a problem (unless accompanied by another substantive fix). Edits removing invisible characters that aren't breaking anything puts this in [[WP:CONTEXTBOT]] territory. This falls under [[WP:COSMETICBOT]] and I can think of no reason to override that here. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 15:18, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
*Per a recent discussion, I would suggest we tread carefully due to a tban that is in place.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 15:32, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
**{{re|Dennis Brown}} The topic ban specifically included an exemption to discuss whether COSMETICBOT applies to Magioladitis' own bots (so long as not excessive), so there's not much danger here. In any event, since he's seeking consensus, COSMETICBOT itself is not too relevant. It can be overridden by consensus. I'm just noting that I see no reason to make an exception here for cases where things aren't broken. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 15:34, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
***<small>My note was really a note to all of us more than him, to be careful so he isn't trapped into not being able to make a request.  Maybe I'm over cautious.  I agree, fixing things that really aren't broken seems to be unnecessary load.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 15:37, 26 June 2017 (UTC)</small>
**{{U|BU Rob13}} This is CHECKWIKI related in case you missed that. In fact, this is CHECKWIKI error 16. I already noted that this is CHECKWIKI related in my reply above. Thanks, [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 15:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
***I am recused from handling BAG actions related to CHECKWIKI because I anticipated drama if I were to do so. This is not BAG related and I am not commenting in my capacity as a BAG member. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 17:06, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
**{{U|Dennis Brown}} I plan to fix these pages in addition to other fixes. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 15:59, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
**{{U|Dennis Brown}} There is no tban in place about this request. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 16:00, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

*Is this a request to get approval to submit this as a BRFA, or just edit you want to make without a bot flag using your own account? — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 16:17, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
::{{U|Xaosflux}} My own account. I don't need to come here for my bot acccount. I can just fill out a BRFA asaik. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 16:25, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
:::This is related to the ArbCom restriction requiring consensus to do purely cosmetic edits semi-automatically, for context. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 17:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Magioladitis}} Thanks, do you have any estimate for how many of these there are and at what edit rate you plan to run? There seem to be [[User_talk:Magioladitis/Archive_6#Replace_magic_links_with_templates_per_RfC|recent concerns]] from other editors that you are flooding watchlists. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 18:13, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
*{{U|Xaosflux}} Probably 3,000-4,000 pages since there are also bots that remove some of these. Moroever,  this was one by Yobot for 7 years or so. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 18:18, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
*:Thanks, is there a reason this wouldn't be appropriate work for a bot to (to avoid lots of watchlist hits)? — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 18:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
**{{U|Xaosflux}} Yes, it can be done by Yobot. Some cases need manual attention though when it comes to non-breaking spaces. I will agree this is is done by Yobot and leave less than 100 edits to be done manually. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 19:13, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
***So why do you want to make these thousands of edits by hand, triggering watchlist notifications, instead of doing this with a bot account? I understand the minority that will need special editing, is the problem that they can't be filtered out? — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 23:04, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
****{{U|Xaosflux}} I can do them by bot if I asked. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 06:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
****{{U|Xaosflux}} [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Yobot 55]]. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 06:25, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
*<s>Support</s> - I see no harm in Magioladitis performing the requested edits. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 17:12, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
:*Given the latest, I've lost all faith that Magioladitis gets it. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 19:59, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
::*[[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] Per ArbCom I have to ask permission to do changes that do not change the visual outcome, I have no restictions to make any other changes. Connecting the two kinds of edits it's interesting.-- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 20:10, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
:::*I'm not connecting the "two kinds of edits", I'm connecting the '''''one kind of behavior''''' on your part in both discussions.  To answer the question you originally posted here before you changed it, "Why did [I] expect?" - I expected an editor of your experience and length of time here, an administrator no less, to understand what they're being told, and not to Wikilawyer every goddamned thing that comes down the pike.  That complaints keep coming, and that you attempt to talk your way out of them is one of your big problems, and the reason I changed my !vote here.  (And, BTW, please don't send me any more sarcastic "Thanks for your edit" notifications, they are not wanted or appreciated, and, again, are an instance of un-adminlike behavior on your part.) [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 20:16, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
::::*[[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]]  I appreciate any comment that will help us understand the problem and solve it. So, would you still be OK with a bot task [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Yobot 55]]? Is the problem the edit from my main account? Is the problem that the edit does not change the visual outcome? Would you be OK if another editor or bot peform these edits? If for example I ask someone else to do these edits, that would be OK? Thanks again and happy editing!-- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]])
:::::*That response is typical.  You attempt to gaslight your way out of a discussion which is '''''not''''' about the technicalities of your request, but '''''about <u>your</u> behavior''''', and your apparent inability to understand that your tether is getting thinner and thinner.  You are damn near exhausting the patience of the general community, and from the recent discussions, you seem to have already run out of it in the community of your bot-running peers, the people who, one would think, would be behind you.  '''''These''''' are the reasons I'm withdrawing my !vote (without, however, changing to "oppose", at least at this time).  Do me a favor, please, and don't ping me again. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 22:33, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::*Who cares about me? I want the task to be done. I don't care if this is going to be another use or a bot or software that will disallow this characters to be entered (that was my proposal to MW programmers). So support the task and find someone to do it. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 07:26, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Tentative support''' these are often changes that won't make very much differences, and will often be de-facto [[WP:COSMETICBOT]], but there is an argument to be made that invisible characters are extremely editor unfriendly, and create headaches for when you're trying to fix things. If this is BRFA'd, I'd want a complete list of such characters affected, likely with each characters tested individually (this might affect non-English languages more). I'd reserve my final opinion on whether or not this is something that's actually needed after seeing what the effects would be. <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 17:51, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
**The list Regex: \u200E|\uFEFF|\u200B|\u2028|\u202A|\u202C|\u202D|\u202E|\u00AD can be removed. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 18:18, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
***Would those leave explicitely declared characters untouched, like in [[Zero-width space]]? <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 20:00, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
****[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] Yes. Anything given explicitelly (by visible text or by templates) won't be touched. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 20:45, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''.  For one thing, they're not technically cosmetic, because when you're viewing the code, the end result is the same as what you started with.  Moreover, we routinely have bots going around and doing this already at Commons (one of the more common ones is removing [[RTL marker]]s from category texts), because as noted above, they can cause problems when editors don't realise that they're there.  For example, run a search for "soft hyphen" at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 60]].  Or see the "Weird pipes display issue" section at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 102]], which discusses the invisible [[Zero-width non-joiner]] character.  And finally, the mere fact of Commons bots doing this long-term is a demonstration that a bot can do this; it's not a CONTEXTBOT situation.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 22:25, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
**{{re|Nyttend}} Responding only to your first sentence, please read [[WP:COSMETICBOT]]. A cosmetics-only change is defined as one which does not affect the visually-rendered result of the page (and also doesn't affect accessibility issues). This is definitely a cosemtics-only change as defined by the policy. If the community wants to make an exception in this case, it can of course do that. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 00:48, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
***This causes accessibility issues for everyone, as I explained in the rest of my sentences.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 05:06, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

* Without more detail on what is actually being proposed to be removed, and what the specific benefit is, I couldn't support. [[User:Hchc2009|Hchc2009]] ([[User talk:Hchc2009|talk]]) 06:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|Hchc2009}} Invisible characters can cause unexpected issues. For instance, if you have a stray right-to-left marker, and you edit a page in AWB, if you press the right arrow to go right, you actually go left. But you don't know there's a right-to-left marker. Likewise, if you have a stray zero-width space, it can cause unwanted wordbreaks and copy-pasting issue. Nyttend's post above have more details on some of the specifics. <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 09:33, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
::Is the argument here that invisible characters are ''already'' banned from the Wiki, and that this is simply a question of how they're removed, or that we're proposing ''to'' ban them? Or that the proposal is to remove ''some'' invisible character? [[User:Hchc2009|Hchc2009]] ([[User talk:Hchc2009|talk]]) 16:41, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
::[[User:Hchc2009|Hchc2009]] If possible we should replace all by the visible counter-parts. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 19:09, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
:::'''Oppose''' - still can't see clarity on what's actually being proposed here. [[User:Hchc2009|Hchc2009]] ([[User talk:Hchc2009|talk]]) 19:29, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' If that many need to be done it can be done via a bot and BRFA. Otherwise any support will be used by mag to condone running a bot on his main account to make what may/or may not be purely cosmetic edits. Notice the caveats from the above editors 'can cause' not 'will cause'. Without a clearly defined list and the problems each edit causes, given his history, I suspect the reason this is here and not at BRFA is that a run removing thousands of invisible characters that may/may not cause problems would not pass. Send it to BRFA and let them decide. Its what its for. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 10:33, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|Only in death}} that... doesn't make sense. The point is to gauge the support for such a bot task. You can't say "I oppose, get bot approval" because bot approval is contingent on support for its task. Magioladitis is also required to advertise such tasks to AN when done semi-automatically.  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 11:00, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
::A BRFA ([[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Yobot 55]]) has been opened for this now.  As mentioned above there may be edge cases that need manual editing, but if most edits can be done via a structured bot job that alleviates my excessive watchlist hits concern above. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 11:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
::Let me be blunter. BRFA is a venue specifically to vet large-scale edits that would be best suited to a BOT/Automated process. AN is a noticeboard that attracts a wide array of editors & admins who may not have knowledge of Mag's history, the contentiousness of edits like this, the 'fixes' mag is on a crusade to implement by any means possible. Any 'support' here is essentially (given Mag's unique interpretation of what is/is not allowed when making gen fixes) giving Mag carte blanche to make thousands of semi-automated (given the speed of his editing history, I heavily doubt the 'semi' there) edits of dubious usefulness from his main account. I would rather not open up the floodgates to someone who has multiple restrictions related to automated editing. So no, I oppose any attempt here to give him 'permission' to do something that would best be evaluated at BRFA. If he wants to run a bot, he can run a bot. If the condition/requirement of passing BRFA for the task is that he gain consensus here, then no, he has shown he has zero judgement in when to apply controversial edits like this, so it would still be oppose.  [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 11:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
:::{{re|Only in death}} BRFA is never where we assess consensus for a task. That is always kicked to another venue. In any event, this is getting a bit confused. {{U|Magioladitis}}, could you clarify whether you're seeking consensus for semi-automated or automated edits here? Those are rather different, and may elicit different levels of support. I'd be more likely to support a flagged bot doing this than semi-automated, although I don't know if I'd support either. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 14:10, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
::::Sigh, if you want to be picky about the wording. BRFA is where you decide if a bot-task can go ahead. Which is the appropriate venue for this. If the decision to approve the task is reliant on the requester showing consensus exists to make the changes in the bot-task, and this is considered a valid place to gain that consensus, the answer would still be no from me as the above request is too vaguely worded and boils down to 'I want to remove invisible characters that may or may not affect the articles in some manner' and has not provided sufficient detail to show that a)they are needed, b)the articles in his list have been sufficiently identified to contain invisible characters that cause an actual problem. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 14:22, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Only in death}} I think the main reason for this initially was that any semi-automated edit (bot account or main) needs to be approved via consensus here due to Magioladitis' ArbCom restriction. If you think that should be done at BRFA, you'd want to file at [[WP:ARCA]], but the community has no direct control over venue on this. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 14:47, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::Well in that case, if the scope of this request is to make semi-automated edits of no demonstrated need on his main account that affect thousands of articles... the answer is still no. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 15:29, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
::::{{ec}} {{re|BU Rob13}} don't preclude that these could be done semi-automated, using a bot account - there is nothing wrong with that model in general and avoids flooding recent changes/watchlist. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
:::::If the scope of a task was tailored to only fix invisible characters causing issues and was done semi-automated on a bot account, I would ''definitely'' support that. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 14:47, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

{{U|Xaosflux}} I would like to do this in automated way but also use my account for some cases because I would like to check some edits to avoid any mistakes. For  instance, AWB can't remove an indivisible character if this is the only edit done. I don't wish to reply to RU Rob13 because he already said he'll stay away from CHECKWIKI related tasks. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 16:39, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
*Just for clarity (and I will not reply further on this topic), I recused from handling CHECKWIKI bot tasks as a BAG member while explicitly stating I may comment as a normal editor. I've never stated I would "stay away from CHECKWIKI related tasks". ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 23:28, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

* '''Support''' Above someone suggested that invisible characters are only important when they break url, links and the like.  It's worth noting that they also break searching, to varying degrees.  All&nbsp;the&nbsp;best: ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'',<small> 18:09, 30 June 2017 (UTC).</small><br />
* '''Oppose''' 3,000 – 4,000 pages? No, if this task is to be done, it should be done through a bot-flagged account. —[[User:DoRD|DoRD]] ([[User talk:DoRD|talk]]) 02:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' per DoRD. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 09:27, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
:*[[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] Can you please confrim that the oppose is only on the "from a normal account" part? -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 16:14, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
::*Confirmed. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 01:23, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

*'''Conditional Support''' I think removing these invisible characters would be a positive thing, and nobody has shown that there's any potential to harm any pages. I do have concerns about using Mag's personal account, due to the Watchlist spam potential mentioned above. However, I think Yobot doing this task through BRFA at a reasonable rate (with Mag manually handling the few the need individual attention) is perfectly fine. I believe overriding COSMETICBOT is justified here. <span style="font-family:Courier New;font-size:3">[[User:The Wordsmith|'''The Wordsmith''']]</span><sup>[[User talk:The Wordsmith|Talk to me]]</sup> 16:21, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support task, oppose implementation''': I take the view that hidden characters can cause problems in urls, editing and other accessibility problems. Therefore, fixing these is a task that is a) should be done and b) suitable for a bot. However, this proposal was suggesting that this would be done on Magio's user account. Editing 3000+ pages on a user account in an automated way will clog watchlists and is far more suited for a bot task. Done sensibly on a bot account and I have no opposition to the task. [[User:TheMagikCow|TheMagikCow]] ([[User talk:TheMagikCow|T]]) ([[Special:Contributions/TheMagikCow|C]]) 10:18, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
:*[[User:TheMagikCow|TheMagikCow]], [[User:The Wordsmith]] I can do this task from Yobot's account. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 16:15, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
::{{U|Magioladitis}}.  We know this ''can'' be done from Yobot's account.  So, ''are'' these (proposed) edits going to be done from Yobot's account (and only and exclusively so)?  —[[User:Sladen|Sladen]] ([[User talk:Sladen|talk]]) 17:35, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
:::[[User:Sladen|Sladen]]  If the consensus is "bot account only" I am doing from there. If the consensus "you may also use your normal account", I'll use both ;) -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 17:43, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

* '''Support''' the task.  {{rto|Magioladitis}}, as far as I know there is no restriction/policy that says that a bot account can't be used for some occasional 'manual' edits to supplement a bot-task (as long as they fall (strictly) under the same approved BRFA and that there is consensus for the edits).  Heck, for me, if you have the necessary approvals to perform a task, and you want to use the bot account to do 4000 repetitive edits completely manual, why not?  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 17:36, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
**Commenting only on the policy generally, a bot account can be approved to do manual edits of a certain type, but a bot operator cannot merely start doing manual edits from their bot account claiming that they "supplement" an existing bot task. A bot task is approval for a specific thing, not a broad category of things (generally - there are some exceptions which would be noted in each BRFA). ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 01:47, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
*** {{rto|BU Rob13}} Hence my '..(as long as they fall (strictly) under the same approved BRFA ..').  Basically, you do the task the bot is approved for, but check every edit manually.  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 03:52, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Appeal my TBan (unarchived for admin closure) ==
{{archive top|result = Consensus is to lift the deletion process topic ban for {{u|Sk8erPrince}}, but it's a short leash. He is warned that resumption of the behaviors that led to this TBAN will result in it being replaced for a long time, possibly indefinitely, and blocks could follow.  <span style="color: #9932CC">[[:User:KrakatoaKatie|Katie]]<sup>[[User talk:KrakatoaKatie|talk]]</sup></span> 15:04, 13 July 2017 (UTC) }}
Half a year ago, I was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=755084831&oldid=755084329 TBanned] from all deletion related processes. I have been told that I could apply to have my TBan lifted after 6 months, which is today. Ever since I was TBanned, I have focused my attention in improving voice actor articles by citing [[Wikipedia:Rs|reliable sources]], as well as placing a new template in them which encourages contributors to source their information. If I do succeed in lifting my current restrictions, I would still continue to contribute to Wikipedia by improving/writing voice actor articles (which can be viewed on my userpage), more often than AFD procedures as I believe that I am more capable in the former. I believe that I have proven that I could contribute to other areas in the encyclopedia, which was a concern when it was believed that I am too obsessed with the deletion process. I hope the community and admins will consider my appeal, and I look forward to continuing working with you all. [[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 04:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

:Why do you want the topic ban lifted?  What has it prevented you from doing that would have benefited Wikipedia? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:16, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
::So that I may contest [[Prod|PRODs]] on articles that I care about and participate in AFD discussions, which are both currently undoable due to my TBan. Even though my main area of focus has shifted, I would still like to redeem the privileges that I once had. [[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 05:22, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

*How do you expect to move forward without running into the same problems of a battleground attitude, mass nominations and rudeness [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ginz%C5%8D_Matsuo&diff=next&oldid=754781709] that got you the ban in the first place? [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 09:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
::As mentioned above, since my primary focus is no longer AFDing (and will no longer be if this appeal is approved), mass nominations won't be a problem as I will be spending most of my time here citing reliable sources on voice actor articles than nominating articles for deletion. I have no intention of being rude in AFDs ever again; rather, I would approach those discussions in a calmer, civil manner, I promise. This is how I plan to move forward. [[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 10:25, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

*I'm inclined to '''support''' this appeal, backed up with a reminder that [[WP:ROPE|any resumption]] of the previous behaviour will quickly result in the TBAN being replaced, perhaps alongside a block for abusive behaviour. But, that's not a threat. I'd expect the same to be applied to me; if I started mass-nominating, I'd expect to be sanctioned. What tips it into 'support', for me, is that this user has hundreds of edits since the TBAN was placed, and no blocks. There was a concern in early January that maybe the editor had violated the TBAN. Rather than become combative, the user discussed the situation. And that was early in the ban. I would encourage the user (encourage, but not require, and not request a response about) to consider what steps they will take if they find themselves heading down the wrong road again. In my experience, it helps to have a plan ahead of time to avoid getting in trouble again. --[[User:Yamla|Yamla]] ([[User talk:Yamla|talk]]) 11:42, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
*I'm tending to '''support''' too, partly because the appeal has been presented in a credible way, partly because of Yamla's reasoning, partly because I really do believe in second chances (unless it's obviously a bad idea), and partly because Sk8erPrince will be aware that any repetition of the problems that led to the ban is likely to result in its reinstatement with very little chance of being lifted again. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 11:50, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
*'''Supporting''' purely out of benefit of the doubt and believing everyone deserves a 2nd chance.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 15:08, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per improvements and acknowledging that next time, the ban will be indefinite and appeal time will be 1 year or longer. [[User:Capitals00|Capitals00]] ([[User talk:Capitals00|talk]]) 17:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
*<s>Support</s> - AGF regarding OP's improved attitude. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 19:20, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
:*Sorry, OP blew it with their comment below.  Deletion may be a '''''necessary''''' thing, but it's not something to celebrate.  I guess their attitude hasn't really changed much at all.  Thanks to TheGracefulSlick for point it out. '''Oppose'''. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:32, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
<s>:::If my attitude hasn't changed, I would have said that it wasn't Grace's business (that was actually what I said in the Tban discussion). Instead, I calmly explained my reasoning for keeping such a list. I fail to see how listing articles that I have managed to delete has anything to do with a battleground attitude or general rudeness, which were concerns when I was Tbanned. Keeping personal records doesn't mean I'm celebrating, nor does it mean that I am gloating that I am very good at the process. [[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 08:08, 17 June 2017 (UTC)</s>
*'''Comment''' - I'm not entirely sure if I'm just making a big deal out of it but did anyone else notice Sk8er still has all the articles he has deleted listed on his userpage -- almost like they were points or victories? I think it is right to ask: {{u|Sk8erPrince}} why do you find it is neccessary to keep such a list of "successful" AfDs and CSDs? I'm willing to support you as long as you have the right attitude toward the deleting processes.[[User:TheGracefulSlick|TheGracefulSlick]] ([[User talk:TheGracefulSlick|talk]]) 02:14, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
::I'll have a second go at answering that question. It's not necessary to keep that deletion list as long as there's viewable records of my AFD stats. I have removed it, so it no longer poses as a potential issue. [[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 04:33, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
<s>::The same could be asked for listing articles that I have tremendously improved, really. As long as it's a significant achievement, I'll list it in my userpage. [[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 02:19, 17 June 2017 (UTC)</s>
:::'''Question''': Would you please explain how these deleted articles are "a significant achievement", equal to that of articles you've "tremendously improved"? [[User:BlackcurrantTea|BlackcurrantTea]] ([[User talk:BlackcurrantTea|talk]]) 07:11, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
<s>::::They're not equal achievements. They're entirely different processes; also, at present day, I think article expansion is more contributive (at least, I have been able to contribute more effectively in that area). However, the AFD process was what I had been doing before I started getting actively involved in article contribution. Since AFD was the only way for me to contribute (that's what I thought, at least), those were the only achievements I've made, and they were significant in my POV. It is simply a personal record, nothing more (so I don't forget what I did manage to achieve). [[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 08:08, 17 June 2017 (UTC)</s>
<s>*'''Clarification''': I just found out that the TBan discussion had listed keeping my personal list of successful deletions as an issue when ''combined'' with other more immediate issues such as rudeness, combative, refusal to integrate into the community and having a battleground mentality (it should also be noted that the main concerns took up most of the OP's post and those that support placing a TBan on me, and that my personal list was only briefly mentioned in just a few sentences). I would like to take this opportunity, since Grace has pointed this out, to clarify the purpose of keeping a list. I don't deny that I was unpleasant back then, and that I was rather immature and inexperienced when dealing with AFD procedures (mass nominations without having conducted [[Wikipedia:BEFORE|enough research]] is one of them). Despite that, I still managed to achieve something in the end, and keeping those AFDs as personal records helps me learn and move forward when looking back. It is part of the learning experience.[[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 08:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)</s>
:*Guy, it's revealing of your mindset being unchanged, ESPECIALLY since you title it "Pages I've deleted '''myself''' [emphasis added]" --[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 23:23, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Successful AFDs are "significant achievements"? If you had linked to the titles themselves -- perhaps as a watchlist against re-creation or as a guide for future re-creation if circumstances change -- I might have thought you had a point. But it's a list of links to the AFD pages, so serves no purpose other than that of a trophy list, like a fighter pilot painting his kills on his aircraft. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 23:23, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
*'''Update:''' I just remembered that my personal AFD records could be viewed using the AFD stats tool, so I've removed the deletion list on my userpage. I don't want to give the wrong impression that I'm keeping victory lists. [[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 01:48, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
:*So exactly the same attitude, just hiding it better? Not the winning rhetorical strategy you think it is.--[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 08:14, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I have no opinion on the Tban but since I was aware of this discussion I was surprised to see Sk8erPrince add himself to the Active AfC reviewer list which I reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AWikiProject_Articles_for_creation%2FParticipants&type=revision&diff=786174698&oldid=786158118] Keeping a list of AfD nominations is pretty silly. They are not trophies, just spam fighting. I can see, however, putting together a list to disprove accusations of making bad AfDs. I wish Sk8erPrince all the luck. Fighting spam attracts all kinds of unwanted attention. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 07:22, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
::Yes, you're right. They are not trophies, so if keeping such a list attracts unwanted (negative) attention, I'd rather just delete it off of my userpage, which I did. I mean, there's other ways of viewing my AFD stats anyway, so it's not all that necessary to keep it.
::'''"putting together a list to disprove accusations of making bad AfDs"'''
::Thank you for understanding. That was actually another reason why I put together that list. Regardless, since the list has been removed, I think it would be for the best for all of us to not dwell on how it might be concerning. [[User:Sk8erPrince|Sk8erPrince]] ([[User talk:Sk8erPrince|talk]]) 09:05, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
:*Except that it's a list of the DISCUSSIONS, not the articles or topics, and he's labelled them "significant achievements": that's not "spamfighting" no matter how you parse it. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 08:14, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
:::30 AfDs are not "significant achievements". I can do that many while bored in a board meeting. Get Twinkle, go to NPP feed, select Unreviewed Pages by New Editors and you can AfD all the junk you can stand to scan.  [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 08:47, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' - Sorry Sk8er but that was not a response that would give me any confidence in seeing the Tban being lifted. With all the struck comments here, I feel you are just looking for a response that appeases editors instead of one that reflects upon your current mindset.[[User:TheGracefulSlick|TheGracefulSlick]] ([[User talk:TheGracefulSlick|talk]]) 14:03, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support per Dennis Brown and Beyond My Ken.  -- '''[[User:Winkelvi|<span style="color:#0640e0; text-shadow:#66ff66 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">ψλ]]</span>''' ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">[[User_talk:Winkelvi|✉]] [[Special:Contributions/Winkelvi|✓]]</span> 14:26, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
:*Just to be clear, I changed my !vote from "support" to "oppose". Given the discussion that's gone on since, I continue to think that change was the correct call. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 20:40, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
*I'm still willing to give them a chance.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 13:58, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
:*"You're a better man than I am, Dennis Brown." - Rudyard Kipling. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 22:16, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
::I doubt that.  I'm just not afraid to be proven a fool.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 22:17, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
* '''Support''' - per Dennis Brown.--[[User:Antidiskriminator|Antidiskriminator]] ([[User talk:Antidiskriminator|talk]]) 11:22, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
* '''Support''' I think that we can give them another chance. SP has shown that they can work well with others, which was the point of the ban. --[[User:Adamfinmo|Adam in MO]]<small> [[User talk:Adamfinmo|Talk]]</small> 00:37, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
* '''Hopeful support''' I think it is time to extend the rope. But there should be an explicit understanding that there will be serious consequences if the behaviour for which the TBan was imposed is demonstrated again. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]]  ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 01:00, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
* '''Support''' - AGF on the request that seems reasonable. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 02:24, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
* '''Weak support''' - I do have a couple of concerns but like Kudpung would be willing to dole out some AGF. [[User:Blackmane|Blackmane]] ([[User talk:Blackmane|talk]]) 03:48, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' -- provided the editor follows the AfD best practices, I don't see a reason not to give them another chance. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 03:46, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
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== NPP push ==

I am posting here to notify people that a push (to review articles) will occur on July 15. I invite anybody who is experienced in policy and patrolling to help. [[User:RileyBugz|<span style="color:#2D3D67;">RileyBugz</span>]][[User talk:RileyBugz|<sup style="color:#D7000B;">会話</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/RileyBugz|<sub style="color:#D7000B;">投稿記録</sub>]] 23:25, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
*Just a note to remind people who might be requesting the New Page Reviewer right for the first time that reading the tutorial at [[WP:NPP]] before you request permission is highly encourage. Quality of patrols is emphasized over quantity. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at [[WT:NPR]]. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 00:38, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

== Need determination of consensus ==

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this but we've had an RFC at [[Talk:Monarchy of Canada]] for the past month. A bot has just removed the RFC template as "expired" (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMonarchy_of_Canada&type=revision&diff=790495052&oldid=790414088]) but no Admin has weighed in to make a determination on whether there or not there's consensus for the proposal. I'm wondering if an uninvolved admin can take a look and make a determination? [[User:Hungarian Phrasebook|Hungarian Phrasebook]] ([[User talk:Hungarian Phrasebook|talk]]) 04:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
: Hello, [[User:Hungarian Phrasebook|Hungarian Phrasebook]]. You can also request a closure at [[WP:ANRFC]] if you want. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 04:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
: BTW, what to do with the whole thread, [[User:Hungarian Phrasebook|Hungarian Phrasebook]]? Leave as is or erase the whole thread? Please feel free to remove my replies if you wish. Thanks. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 05:10, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

== Jodie Whittaker ==
{{atop|Already requested at [[WP:RPP]]. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 15:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Could an Admin please semi-protect [[Jodie Whittaker]], who has been announced as the new doctor in [[Doctor Who]].. loads of vandalism as a result. [[User:JMHamo|JMHamo]] ([[User talk:JMHamo|talk]]) 15:31, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Block review of [[User:Lopunny|Lopunny]] ==
{{archive top|result=Please see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Final 5 Frenzy]]. [[User:Mz7|Mz7]] ([[User talk:Mz7|talk]]) 16:26, 17 July 2017 (UTC)}}
I blocked {{vandal|Lopunny}} for page move vandalism.  However, I see I became aware of his vandalism because I reverted his revert of my revert of an IP's edit at [[2002]], so I might be considered [[WP:INVOLVED]].  — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]]  [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 05:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{nao}} Jumping immediately to a 1 week block for vandalism?  Seeing some strange back and forth movements, but not a lot to immediately jump up to 1 week block.  Also where is the escalating warning.  Personally I think this a bit overreaction for the actions presented.  Also remember the cooldown blocks aren't appropriate either. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 19:51, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
::I don't know what cooldown blocks have to do with anything; this was certainly not a cooldown block.  Anyway, if it had been me, since there's also a history of productive editing, I'd have probably pointedly asked them what was going on, and given them one final wakeup call before blocking.  So I'd suggest unblocking, and replacing the block template with such a note.  But vandalism isn't some minor infraction, it strikes at the heart of what we're trying to do here, and if this block had been placed by someone less involved with the editor, it would be on the aggressive side, but within the range of common practice.  There's no need for an escalating series of blocks starting with 24 hours or anything, we block vandals indefinitely all the time. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 21:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Unblocked, now.  The editor has a mixture of reasonably good edits, reverting vandalism, and adding vandalism.  I was actually considering that the account may have been compromised, as this is a new type of vandalism, but he self-corrected the last page move.  — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]]  [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 00:25, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
::::I was wondering the same thing, as they had some ok edits, then this vandalism, so I wondered if he was compromised (my little brother did it) or just goofing around and not realizing we take that seriously. It is a little unusual. I agree with Floq on the duration.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 22:03, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
*Based on edits since the block was undone, I've reblocked indef.  This is just a returning troll (admins can look at deleted contribs). --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 03:05, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
**See also [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Final 5 Frenzy]], which revolves around the pattern of page move vandalism at [[Portal:Current events/2016 April 14]]. [[User:Mz7|Mz7]] ([[User talk:Mz7|talk]]) 07:24, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

{{Clear}}
==Admin inactivity==
{{archive top|result=This is quickly degrading into something no one should be proud of.  There are a lot of opinions regarding admin inactivity, but WP:AN is not the place to bring it up.  To answer the initial question, whether this is the right place, the answer is that [[WP:Administrators]] is the policy that dictates what we do in admin inactivity and is probably the best place to raise the issue. If an RFC develops, then a note here and at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)]] and other places.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 21:13, 19 July 2017 (UTC)}}
I hope this is the right talk page to ask: is this an appropriate way to retain admin tools from an essentially non-active admin? He states [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ottawahitech&diff=prev&oldid=790992398 here] that he does a "yearly check in to retain admin flag." But as you can see from the edit -- a talk page comment expressing hostility to Wikipedia and expressing sympathy for an indef blocked editor, or [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Syrthiss&diff=prev&oldid=790992093 this bit of thumb-your-nose nonsense] to <s>the 2016</s> a recent de-sysopping warning, this may not be the sort of activity that our active admin policy requires -- or is it? It ''seems'' to me to be gaming the system, but this is obviously not my area. FYI, I came across the issue when checking the indef ban on Ottawahitech. thanks, [[User:Shawn in Montreal|Shawn in Montreal]] ([[User talk:Shawn in Montreal|talk]]) 15:52, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
:There are quite a few admins who log in once a year to remain 'active'. Wikipediocracy keeps track of them. The short answer is: There is no policy based reason to remove tools from an admin who is meeting the activity requirements and not abusing their tools. Unless the community decides it wants to tighten up the activity requirements to prevent this sort of behavior, nothing can be done about it. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 16:00, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
::I see. Well, the editor is doing no harm, much as I disagree with his sentiments on Ottawahitech's talk page. thanks, [[User:Shawn in Montreal|Shawn in Montreal]] ([[User talk:Shawn in Montreal|talk]]) 16:03, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
:''(Moved from talk page)''
::: I'd move that the policy be changed to remove tools from sysop just logging in once a year to keep them.  Far as I'm concerned that ''is'' an abuse of the system.  Let them actually do something constructive with their tools, not just log in once a month. <span style="border: 1px solid #666666;">[[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="background: #000000; color: gold;">&nbsp;К Ф Ƽ Ħ&nbsp;</span>]][[User_talk:KoshVorlon|<span style="background: #ffffff; color:#000000;">'''Speak'''</span>]]</span> 21:41, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Whatever limit you pick, someone's going to game it.  One logged action a month isn't hard at all if all you want is to keep your bit.  It ''is'' onerous if you're active but mostly edit content, or if you have wildly-varying amounts of free time. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 21:54, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::I'm more concerned with admins with '''''no''''' logged admin actions, but who continue editing.  The current state of policy does not allow for these admins to be desysopped because of admin-inactivity, as long as they keep editing as editors.  See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Inquiry this discussion] on BN. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 22:12, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Administrators/Archive_15&oldid=770000286#Workshopping_an_RfC_on_the_inactivity_policy RFC Feb 2017], and not the first time this has been discussed. As I understand that process, if an admin does let time lapse until they are desysoped, all they have to do is ask for reinstatement:[[Wikipedia:Bureaucrats#Restoration_of_permissions|re-sysopping process]]. Once an admin, always an admin, if you really want it badly enough to show up every couple of years.  It is concerning to look at admin logs and see some who got the tools and never did much at all with them. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 22:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::*Really the entire inactivity and re-sysopping procedures need to be looked at. The inactivity is far too easily gamed at the moment - but as cryptic points out, just reducing it wont stop people gaming it. Coupled with the rubber-stamp process of re-requesting it.... Likewise admins who want to take a break should not be prevented from doing so for fear of losing their tools. So some sort of comprehensive review of the entire process is in order, rather than just looking at one part of the problem. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 08:05, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

:And even if they forgot to do their token yearly edit until the day after the year had gone by, it seems [[User_talk:Chuck_SMITH#Suspension_of_administrative_permissions_due_to_inactivity|very easy to get the tools back]] judged on the notices of people listed at [[WP:FORMER]]. There's another page somewhere (for the life of me I can't locate it at the moment) that shows of the 1,300 or so "live" admins, only 700-ish have made at least one edit/other action in a the last rolling three month spell. Admins gaming the system like this are [[WP:NOTHERE|not really here to help]].  '''[[User:Lugnuts|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Lugnuts</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Lugnuts|Fire Walk with Me]]</sup> 11:07, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::Well, in the particular case raised here, {{u|Syrthiss}} ''is'' clearly taking the piss; but, more broadly, that's because [[WP:WIKIPEDIANS|we]] allow that to happen. And it would be both instinctively unfair, and smack of playing the man not the ball, to focus on the individual rather than the systematic issue. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 11:17, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Cool to see that my note to a friend who has had a troubled past here is interpreted as something sinister. I may wish to come back and devote time to the encyclopedia as much as I did probably before most of you even registered or made an edit. I abide by the rules and make my edit when the system notifies me that I am required to, as I have done several times over the years without comment. I protect my admin account with a strong password and two factor. So, I'm going to pull out an old saying that I hope still is the core for folks: [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]]. [[User:Syrthiss|Syrthiss]] ([[User talk:Syrthiss|talk]]) 12:15, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:and Shawn is reminded that they need to inform folks when they mention them here. I mean, it even has a scary orange bar notice. I assume they just missed it. Regards. [[User:Syrthiss|Syrthiss]] ([[User talk:Syrthiss|talk]]) 12:23, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::Seeing as your [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Syrthiss|RfA]] was more than a decade ago, couple with your lack of actual contributions, I doubt you'd pass [[WP:ADMINACCT]]. See you this time next year. '''[[User:Lugnuts|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Lugnuts</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Lugnuts|Fire Walk with Me]]</sup> 12:31, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::It's a date! [[User:Syrthiss|Syrthiss]] ([[User talk:Syrthiss|talk]]) 12:45, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::::After reading your tone-deaf response to the concerns raised here, I am relieved to know you'll be gone for an entire year. [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 20:55, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::Uncool. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 21:00, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
As long as the community isn't interested in a sensible activity policy or community-based desysopping, there is no solution to this. Every time the activity policy is brought up, people say this causes problems so infrequently that it isn't worth changing. The subtext there is that there ''will'' be problems/gaming, and the community appears to be fine with that (at least until the problems actually appear). ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 12:32, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:Well it's a valid point. If there is no harm caused by old admins floating by every once in a while to preserve their bit, then why do so many people worry about it? The only possible dangers I see are: (1) possibility of account hacking, and (2) that if they ever come back to more full-time adminship they may not have kept abreast of the latest standards and guidelines. If people can actually point to specific instances of these things happening, or indeed any other problem with inactive admins, then maybe there would be a stronger case for change. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 12:40, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
*As for my part, as I just explained to Syrthiss on my user talk page, I didn't really bring it "here" -- I'd raised it on the discussion page, on the other side, where I saw no orange bar, scary or otherwise. It was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&type=revision&diff=791193788&oldid=791192984 moved here by a bureaucrat], no doubt correctly. Of course I realize now I should have pinged him. [[User:Shawn in Montreal|Shawn in Montreal]] ([[User talk:Shawn in Montreal|talk]]) 12:47, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::Oh and in fact, before bringing it to the ANI talk page, I'd initially [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Administrators&diff=prev&oldid=791171465 raised the question] at the Wikipedia talk:Administrators, before realizing it wasn't getting much attention. As a longtime veteran non-admin editor I just wanted to ask a question. I got my answer. [[User:Shawn in Montreal|Shawn in Montreal]] ([[User talk:Shawn in Montreal|talk]]) 12:53, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Oh and on the broader issue that I inadvertently raised,  I think I get the logic: we do not automatically de-sysop admins for mere inactivity. We give them the ''option'' of doing nothing and ''allowing'' that to take place. Which is fine. [[User:Shawn in Montreal|Shawn in Montreal]] ([[User talk:Shawn in Montreal|talk]]) 14:13, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::::We must know the % of inactive admins who become active again one day, as Syrthiss says he might. If it's even 5% it's still worth it to have a relaxed policy, I guess. Wikipedia is not paper, with no set limit, so a long list of inactive admins shouldn't be a problem either, as others have pointed out above. [[User:Shawn in Montreal|Shawn in Montreal]] ([[User talk:Shawn in Montreal|talk]]) 14:21, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
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== [[User:Msaiflodin]] ==

Can some administrator please offer a second opinion on [[User:Msaiflodin]]?  This editor isn’t a Vandalism-Only Account because the editor isn’t a vandal, but the editor wastes the time of New Page Patrol by creating pages that are [[WP:NOTHERE|not here to contribute to the encyclopedia]].  (I know that [[WP:NOTHERE|NOTHERE]] is meant to apply to editors.  I am not sure whether this editor is here constructively.)  
[[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 04:37, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
*{{checkuser|Saifudsin}}
*{{checkuser|Msaiflodin}}
*{{checkuser|Nazir Mohammad}}

Saifudsin is the older account which created the same article before word for word. Nazir is another sock based on [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Nazir_Mohammad Commons contribs] which has another word for word posting of that article. Both socks indeffed and master blocked 72 hours. Both socks have files at commons and the article has been created on [https://tools.wmflabs.org/guc/?user=Saifudsin another wiki]. This is a clear COI with socks so if the master returns to the behavior then he will likely be indeffed.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 05:10, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
:Blocked all three at Commons and deleted both images.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 11:43, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

== Sleeper socks? ==

I stumbled upon {{u|HDouglas}}, {{u|GDouglas}}, {{u|JDouglas}}, {{u|NDouglas}} and {{u|MDouglas}}. All accounts were created the same day, within minutes of each other. Each user page is identical or near to it. I can't imagine we have five relatives that all decide to create Wikipedia accounts the same day. Each account generally has only edited their user page. I worry that after a month it's too late to get any SPI results. Am I wrong to assume there's something odd here? <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 22:04, 15 July 2017 (UTC) {{nw}}
:NDouglas has posted at [[User talk:BikeSally|BikeSally]], which has similar behavior, including the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:BikeSally&oldid=356393141 comments] when creating their talk page. Looks like that account has existed since 2010. [[User:Home Lander|Home Lander]] ([[User talk:Home Lander|talk]]) 22:20, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{noping|HDouglas}}, {{noping|GDouglas}}, {{noping|JDouglas}}, {{noping|NDouglas}}, {{noping|MDouglas}}, {{noping|BikeSally}}, and [[User:Buaidh|Buaidh]] are {{tallyho}}, but I'm not really getting a sockpuppeting vibe here. [[User:Ks0stm|<span style='color:green;'>'''Ks0stm'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Ks0stm|T]]•[[Special:Contribs/Ks0stm|C]]•[[:en:User:Ks0stm/G|G]]•[[:en:User:Ks0stm/E|E]])</sup> 00:18, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::Do they edit from Colorado, as they all claim? [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 12:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::I don't make a habit of speaking for other people, but I'm guessing that Ks0stm would tell you that we really [[:m:Privacy policy|shouldn't]] [[:m:Checkuser policy|say]]. —[[User:DoRD|DoRD]] ([[User talk:DoRD|talk]]) 15:43, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::[[User:Buaidh]], who is included in the above group, has been on Wikipedia since 2006 and has 170,000 edits. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Colorado/Wiknic/2016 This page] suggests he might have crossed paths with [[User:BikeSally]]. I'll leave him a note that he's been mentioned here. It occurs to me that the Douglas-named accounts might all have been created in preparation for a Wikipedia-sponsored event in June 2017 near Denver. (See also [[Wikipedia:Meetup/Colorado/Wiknic/2017]]). [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 15:47, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::And Buaidh edits everything Colorado; I doubt there's a town or a major politician in the state whose article he's not edited.  So if he's indistinguishable from them, they're definitely in Colorado.  I'd be absolutely shocked if he were involved in anything untoward.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 21:58, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::Requesting the account creator userright is the proper way to prepare for an edit-a-thon, not this. Further, why would Buaidh put stuff on the userpages if they anticipated new users that would need accounts? Even if I knew the Douglas family and they all planned to be at that event, I wouldn't create them accounts and user pages. This is either some poor thinking by Buaidh, a mistake from the CU check, or this is evidence of an attempt at socking. I'm not sure which but I didn't volunteer at [[WP:NPP]] to find stuff like this. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 07:49, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Account creator is for if you are creating some or all of the accounts, but it looks like all of these accounts were created by a browser that wasn't logged into an account.  If you've been here 10+ years, and you want to go socking, you know not to use similar names and not to edit all the userpages; at worst, this is mildly confusing, and at best (I don't see why not to think this) it's an experienced user helping some newbies.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 11:48, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

== Edit histories with revdelete==

When doing a revision comparison, has anyone else noticed the new "Browse history" dropbox?  Reason I am asking is that, if a version is revdeleted, you can still view the user name and edit summary in that dropdown box, even though said user name and edit summary have been hidden.  You can't view the actual edit diff, thankfully.  I presume this is a WMF issue, but... Feel free to move/forward this to a better place (it's not coming to me right now) per BEANS, and then revdelete this.  It's OK, my user name and edit summaries are usually relatively safe...  [[User:78.26|<b style="border:1px solid black; padding:1px;background:1h5h1h; color:#008B8B;">78.26</b>]] <sub>([[User talk:78.26|spin me]] / [[Special:Contributions/78.26|revolutions]])</sub> 21:16, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
:I was unable to replicate this.  Can you confirm it works when logged out or logged in to a non-administrator account? [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:11, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
::Same here - here is a sample page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=790620156&oldid=790620139&title=User%3AXaosflux%2FSandbox33&type=revision Sandbox33] - the info is only showing in the slider when logged in as an account with that access (e.g. admins) {{re|78.26}} if you have more info we can get a phab case open if this is a non-admin leak. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 23:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Thanks for checking into this.  Indeed, the slider does not show the information when I am logged-out.  I don't have a non-admin account, so I can't check that, sorry.  (I'll create one if you think it would be useful.)  That said, I don't really think this should be visible to me unless I make a deliberate effort to view the material (for cause).  I do not know if material suppressed by the WMF shows up. [[User:78.26|<b style="border:1px solid black; padding:1px;background:1h5h1h; color:#008B8B;">78.26</b>]] <sub>([[User talk:78.26|spin me]] / [[Special:Contributions/78.26|revolutions]])</sub> 00:08, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
::::I just tested it with a suppressed edit summary and it shows in the browse history dropdown (but not in the normal diff), which matches with it showing RevDel'd details to an admin (I'm an Oversighter). It looks like the browse history dropdown circumvents <code>unhide=1</code> in the URL (that is, it shows everything you're entitled to see without asking for confirmation as the normal diff does). <b>[[User:Callanecc|Callanecc]]</b> ([[User talk:Callanecc|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Callanecc|contribs]] • [[Special:Log/Callanecc|logs]]) 01:54, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
{{yo|78.26}}, I think you should create a non-admin account, and confirm for yourself that it isn't a non-admin leak.  Once that's done, we can (and should) have the discussion about whether the feature can be improved by forcing admins to make a deliberate effort to view RevDeleted material.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:03, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
:We almost certainly should require a deliberate effort if only because some material is revdel'd because it is disruptive (e.g. material that causes certain browsers or operating systems to crash). ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 23:10, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
::I just tried with the above sample page and it will not display the removed details to me. [[User:Home Lander|Home Lander]] ([[User talk:Home Lander|talk]]) 23:12, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Hello, 78.26 here under the brand-new-shiny alternative non-admin account. I can confirm there is not a non-admin leak.  So, let the discussion commence regarding ease of viewing rev-delete material for admins.  Thanks everyone.  [[User:Shellacked!|Shellacked!]] ([[User talk:Shellacked!|talk]]) 06:00, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::I think it would be better for admins to see the username crossed out - they could, at the same time, see who the user is and the fact that the username was deleted. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 06:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::{{u|Od Mishehu}}, in Preferences there's a "Strike out usernames that have been blocked" option. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 12:49, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Moving under the assumption that we want to have admins make a deliberate effort to view revdeleted material, what is the cleanest way to implement this?  Some kind of Phabricator request? [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 05:04, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

== Whlrradio ==
{{archive top|result={{nao}} Blocked by positive SPI check by Bbb23 [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 20:28, 19 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Can I get someone to delete all the articles made by {{user|Whlrradio}}? They clearly seem to be promoting a band called [[B.E.R.]] and a song titled [[The Night Begins to Shine]], using nothing but patently unreliable sources such as blogs or fanwikis. Their username also seems to be promotional in nature. <span style="color:green">'''Ten Pound Hammer'''</span> • <sup>([[User talk:TenPoundHammer|What did I screw up now?]])</sup> 06:06, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{nao}} {{reply|TenPoundHammer}} while you were ten-pound hammering Whlrradio's talk with all those deletion notifications, could you not have also left the mandatory notice informing them that you have raised this discussion? &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 15:04, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

[[TenPoundHammer]]
([[User talk:TenPoundHammer|What did I screw up now?]]). PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THOSE PAGES THAT I CREATED. I am not an actual radio station you can look it up, it's non existent. It was the name of my [[YouTube]] account in 2013. These pages are real people, the song is legitimate and did chart, the show which they were on, [[Teen Titans Go]], IS REAL. PLEASE I am begging you to look them up, it's all legitimate. They are about to be in a new show on Cartoon Network and it is CRITICAL that we have Wikipedia pages for them. What should I do to fix the problem???? Please respond  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 15:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

[[TenPoundHammer]]
([[User talk:TenPoundHammer|What did I screw up now?]])
Please talk with me about this!  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 15:32, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Please stop bullying us, leave us be.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 15:53, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::{{reply|Whlrradio}} For a start, you can calm yourself :) [[User_talk:TenPoundHammer#Whlrradio_articles|they will not]] be speedily deleted. And there's no need to shout either! &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 15:54, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::::(ec)TPH is not bullying you, but trying to be sure that the articles you created met our [[WP:GNG|basic rules for notability]] and that you used [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Also, you keep saying "us" and "we", are you saying there are more than one of you? [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 15:55, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

[[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) I work with Warner Music and I am trying to work to create Wikipedia pages for our clients which are the members of the group, B.E.R. I do this on behalf of [[Frank Enea]], [[William J. Regan]], and [[Carl Burnett]].  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 15:59, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

What should I do to improve the reliability of my sources? Everything for [[The Night Begins To Shine]] is obtained from the internet. I am not lying about anything, and in terms of iTunes charting I could send photos of it to anyone on here who wants proof.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 16:02, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I am really struggling to make these pages stay up.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 16:11, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

[[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) Hello, I just deleted anything regarding the song charting on iTunes on all pages for [[Carl Burnett]], [[Frank Enea]], and [[William J. Regan]]. That was the only thing marked wrong on those pages because iTunes charts are unreliable. That is something I absolutely did not know about. Everything else is from reliable sources. Will the pages still be deleted or will one of you reverse the motion.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 16:53, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Please calm down, as you were asked earlier, we are all volunteers and work on articles as we can. I am going to let you know, you need to read over [[WP:COI]], as you have an admitted conflict of interest on these articles, as you said above you work with Warner Music. Each article is judged on it's own merits, and whether the subject is notable or not. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 16:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::That puts a certain slant on things, [[WP:PAID]] too. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 17:00, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Okay, let it be mentioned the fact that I am not being paid to do this for the group. I am hired by an organization, not the members of the group. Remember, the subjects of this argument are musicians who have to a certain degree notability on the internet. Let me say again, they will be on a major television show airing August 1st to the 4th on the Cartoon Network where they literally are the characters. There has to be individual Wiki pages for them so there is an estabilshed place for their information. Again, '''I am an employee to Warner Music and am doing this for the group based on information that I have obtained not with incentive by them.''' I am NOT being paid. I do not see where the coi is. All of this information is obtained from the internet!  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 17:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:{{reply|Whlrradio}} Thank you; you have been very clear! So you are only hired by an organisation, who pay you, to promote a band that your employer wants promoted? But ''you'' are not paid to promote the band? You need to declare your [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]] as a bare minimum- before we even worry about your articles. You have now involved multiple editors, and at least two adminisatrtors, and the policy is very clear: '{{green|If COI editing causes disruption, an administrator may opt to place blocks on the involved account}}.' Obviously, this is something we all wish to avoid; but the proposition is not a complex one, and it sounds like you [[WP:IDHT|might not be listening to us]]? &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 17:46, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{reply|Whlrradio}} Please read [[WP:PAID]] - it addresses exactly this situation, in the section "Meaning of "employer, client, and affiliation"". --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 17:50, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I WORK FOR A RECORD COMPANY. I AM NOT PAID TO PROMOTE THE GROUP. You seem to not understand what I actually do with them. Anyways, where would you wish for me to put the information to prove that I work for them. This conflict of interest deal is ludicrous.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 17:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::{{reply|Whlrradio}} Have you actually read the link {{u|Bonadea}} gave you? It explains what you ''have just asked''.Or, indeed, any of the links here? They are all useful, and not posted for our amusement. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 18:04, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Also "There has to be individual Wiki pages for them so there is an estabilshed place for their information". Actually no, there doesn't. Unless they meet [[WP:GNG]], [[WP:NMUSIC]], no they do not HAVE to have an article. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 18:07, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

why won't you just let them have the page. They have some notability. I see tons of wiki articles from completely unknown people but you bother them??  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Whlrradio|Whlrradio]] ([[User talk:Whlrradio#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Whlrradio|contribs]]) 18:34, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=791360835&oldid=791360812&title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard This] was a good edit, at least. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 19:18, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Leave them be.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.127.219.137|69.127.219.137]] ([[User talk:69.127.219.137#top|talk]]) 19:18, 19 July 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:{{ec}}'''BLOCK''' Whlrradio for clear insurmountable COI (Being paid for their job by record company whose client is the band), repeated [[WP:OSE|"Other stuff exists"]] arguments in favor of this questionably notable musician, and [[WP:COMPETENCE|competence]] issues for not reading operating documents after being pointed at them multiple times.  We've wasted enough time with them. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 19:21, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::Addendum: suspect 69.127.219.137 IP address is Whlrradio editing logged out which therefore invokes a [[WP:SOCK]] charge. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 19:24, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::There's a SPI open: [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Whlrradio]]. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 19:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== User wants to leave Wikipedia (I think) Comment ==

Maybe I'm reading [[User talk:NANGA#Delete_User_Page_.26_Account|User NANGA]] incorrectly, or been giving incorrect advice. Maybe it's a little of both. This user came up as CSD, wanting to delete their user page, and at the same time was requesting a user name change.  I advised them on how to change their user name.  Looks to me like they want a quick action, without having to read a lot of Wikipedia instruction (my guess). Or maybe it's all just confusing.  Down at the bottom of their last post, it looks like what they really want to do is inactivate their user account ... or ... rename it (maybe). Can anyone on this board handle this request?  I don't think the user wants to be referred around to read and post somewhere else.  For my own information, what IS the process if a user wants to inactivate their account?[[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 21:20, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:Stop editing Wikipedia? There is no such thing as an "inactive account" other than an account that isn't editing—we can't delete an account altogether for legal reasons as it destroys the attribution for any page they've ever edited.&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 21:28, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

:per [[Wikipedia:Changing username#Please consider the following alternatives to a rename]], we don't really rename users like that. And as they've already seen, we don't delete user talk pages.  However, it's perfectly fine to blank the talk page or leave only a {{tl|retired}} banner, and you could offer to block the account with a "User has retired and requested this account be blocked" rationale. Or if you don't like self-requested blocks I can offer to do it. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 21:33, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

::I would like it if you made the offer.  Thank you. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 21:35, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{done}} (the offer, not the block). --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 21:45, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Wikipedia:Naming conventions (West Bank) ==
{{atop|<small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> This discussion -- which was a content question in any case -- is going nowhere, and has evolved into a place for one editor to post their views, so I'm closing it, even though I was involved in the discussion.  Feel free to re-open it if you think there's any value in it continuing. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 03:55, 23 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Recently, there has been some confusion on whether or not the 7 July 2017 [[UNESCO]] decision to list the Old Town of [[Hebron]], specifically the [[Cave of the Patriarchs]], as a [[World Heritage Site]], can or cannot be listed in the main list of [[World Heritage Sites in Israel]]. I have proposed that it be listed there, while other co-editors have disagreed with me. Wikipedia policies outlined in [[WP:Naming conventions (West Bank)]] do not specifically deal with the historical/geographical aspects of sites in the [[West Bank]] and which places were, in antiquity, called by different  names. For example, the geographical place known as the "Land of Israel" is also a country historically defined as such in the [[Midrash]] and [[Mishnah]] (compiled in 189 CE). Saying that a place ([[Hebron]]) is in the Land of [[Canaan]], [[Judea]], [[Palestine (region)|Palestine]], the [[Land of Israel]], the [[Holy Land]], or whatever, is NOT necessarily a political statement, as it is a historical statement. It just so happens that the Government of Israel calls the country by its historical name. Had the Wikipedia article, "[[World Heritage Sites in Israel]]," been titled "World Heritage Sites in the State of Israel," the resentment in having Hebron or the Cave of the Patriarchs listed there may have held up, insofar as that is disputed. But, historically, there is no dispute whatsoever about its historical connections to these geographical names. If [[UNESCO]] wanted to politicize something, as in the recent case involving Hebron (see: [http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/08/world/unesco-puts-hebron-endangered-heritage-list-outraging-israel/#.WWEuIYSGPIU UNESCO puts Hebron on endangered heritage list, outraging Israel]), does that mean that we, on Wikipedia, must also politicize the same thing? Of course not! Please clarify Wikipedia's policy in [[WP:Naming conventions (West Bank)]] with respect to the use of geographical names used in antiquity, and which are NOT meant to offend any ethnic group, ''per se'', but only mention its historical context.[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 22:27, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
: I think in general to avoid conflict, both categories can be added. So if there's a CAT for Palestine Heritage, you can also have one for Israel heritage, which I added. Also, in general the only people to use categories are editors involved, I don't think any reader ever uses these. [[User:Sir Joseph|Sir Joseph]] [[User_talk:Sir Joseph|<sup style="color:green;">(talk)</sup>]] 16:13, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
::I would also agree to that. The use of the category, "World Heritage Sites in Israel", is still valid with respect to the [[Cave of the Patriarchs]] and/or the Old Town of [[Hebron]] for the simple reason that its being designated as a World Heritage Site is irrelevant of the country, seeing that the identification of the place itself is '''undisputed''', although the [[UNESCO]] board members have opted to take a political stand by not calling the country of its location "Israel," using instead the word "Palestine." The name of the country is disputed merely on political grounds, but should not have any legal bearing on making mention of the country based on its accepted use and understanding, broadly construed. By "broadly construed" I mean that "Israel" and "Palestine" are one and the same country, the one word used in place of the other by Jews and by Arabs.[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 01:53, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
:::I disagree. UNESCO did not accidentally call it a "Palestinian World Heritage Site" — and it is not Wikipedia's place to insert itself into the controversy and revise it based on editorial POV. For example, let's conisder the argument above:  
::::*"The name of the country is disputed merely on political grounds, but should not have any legal bearing on making mention of the country based on its accepted use and understanding, broadly construed. By "broadly construed" I mean that "Israel" and "Palestine" are one and the same country"
::::*"it is a historical statement. It just so happens that the Government of Israel calls the country by its historical name. Had the Wikipedia article, "[[World Heritage Sites in Israel]]," been titled "World Heritage Sites in the State of Israel," the resentment in having Hebron or the Cave of the Patriarchs listed there may have held up, insofar as that is disputed. But, historically, there is no dispute whatsoever about its historical connections to these geographical names."
::Following the above logic should we also add it to "World Heritage sites in the Ottoman Empire"? Probably not right? I don't think the UNESCO classification is meant to refer to "historical territories" (in which case, we would have to add it "World Heritage sites in the Ottoman Empire" or "World Heritage sites in the Kingdom of Jerusalem" or "World Heritage sites in the Roman Empire" (since Israel was "erased from the map by the Romans" as is so often pointed out, though no maps existed at this time, aside from a stone Babylonian tablet that depicted Babylon as the center of the world.) So to the point, its fairly obvious that UNESCO doesn't classify sites based on where they existed historically, but rather where they exist in terms of modern geographical boundaries. So, no, absolutely not, and I recommend other editors become involved in this discussion to make sure Wikipedia is not used as a platform for this kind of personal advocacy. [[User:Seraphim System|<span style="font-family:Candara; color:#cc00cc; text-shadow:#b3b3cc 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">'''Seraphim System'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Seraphim System|<span style="color:#009900">talk</span>]])</sup> 02:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
The tag [[:Category:World Heritage Sites in Israel]] was recently added to [[Cave of the Patriarchs]]. I removed it, and there is now a discussion fork on this topic underway at [[Talk:Cave of the Patriarchs/Archive 1#Categorisation with respect to status as World Heritage Site]]. [[User:Snuge purveyor|Snuge purveyor]] ([[User talk:Snuge purveyor|talk]]) 07:52, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

* <del>'''PROPOSAL:''' Since, as far as historical topography is concerned, no juridical legitimacy or anything "binding" can be ascribed to UNESCO's decision of 7 July 2017 to mention the Old Town of [[Hebron]] (the [[Cave of the Patriarchs]]) as a [[World Heritage Site]] in '''Palestine''', anymore than its decision earlier (in 2001) to mention the fortress [[Masada]] as a World Heritage Site in '''Israel''', as you can see here: [http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/&order=country#alphaI UNESCO World Heritage Sites in Israel], although <ins>both places</ins> are located in the so-called "West Bank" captured by Israel in 1967 (or what some hope to be the future State of Palestine). UNESCO's use of nomenclature in this most recent matter is based purely upon political motives. However, in terms of Wikipedia's recognition of this unresolved border dispute, or its leaning towards any one side in the Arab-Israeli conflict, let it be resolved that we, as neutral observers, steer clear from taking any political stand, but maintain a neutral point of view, in accordance with [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:IMPARTIAL]]. In consideration of which, it is here proposed that the following disclaimer be appended to the Wikipedia pages broadly construed with the Arab-Israeli conflict, namely, that an asterisk (*) be placed after the word "Israel" in the category known as "World Heritage Sites in Israel," with a reference to the effect that the proper name "Israel" is used here apolitically, that is, as a geographical/historical toponym, often used in the same sense that "Palestine" is used, and whose recognized borders may actually be disputed; or vice-versa, the proper name "Palestine" is used here apolitically, etc. This may bring some succor to this complex and troubling issue.</del>[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 13:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
:*<small>Madame chairwoman! Madame chairwoman! I rise to a point of order!! [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 19:45, 15 July 2017 (UTC)</small>
*'''SIMPLIFIED REVISED PROPOSAL:''' As per Wikipedia's recognition of the unresolved border dispute between Israelis and Palestinians, or its leaning towards any one side in the Arab-Israeli conflict, let it be resolved that we, as neutral observers, steer clear from taking any political stand, but maintain a neutral point of view, in accordance with [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:IMPARTIAL]]. In consideration of which, it is here proposed that the following disclaimer be appended to the Wikipedia pages broadly construed with the Arab-Israeli conflict, namely, that an asterisk (*) be placed after the word "Israel" in the category known as "World Heritage Sites in Israel," with a reference to the effect that the proper name "Israel" is used here apolitically, that is, as a geographical/historical toponym, often used in the same sense that "Palestine" is used, and whose recognized borders may actually be disputed; or vice-versa, the proper name "Palestine" is used here apolitically, etc. This may bring some succor to this complex and troubling issue.
*My contention is that you cannot call half of the country "Palestine" and half of the country "Israel," when both toponyms were used for ONE and THE SAME country. Besides, it was the British who first proposed dividing the country in 1937, and which proposal eventually led to a war between Jews and Arabs, each trying to gain as much control of the country as possible. As far as borders are concerned, nothing has been resolved between the two parties in this dispute ---- a dispute, mind you, which I call one of the great "political intrigues" of the 21st century! [[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 19:52, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
:*Your definition of NPOV is odd, to say the least.  I agree with Seraphim above: we should call it what UNESCO calls it.  The insertion of asterisks and argumentation is saying that we have more authority to name these sites than UNESCO does, which is patently ridiculous. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 20:24, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
{{Re|Beyond My Ken}} editors have been "politicizing" the situation since who-knows-when. But why do you insist on politicizing the situation when it negates Wikipedia's stated policy? As you can see [http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/unesco-puts-city-hebron-heritage-danger-list-48495103 here], the Israeli objection to calling regions of the country by two names - the one "Palestine" and the other "Israel" - based on political motives, or more precisely, on the now defunct [[1949 Armistice Agreement]] between Israel and Jordan, is what we are dealing with here. (For the 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan, see discussion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Davidbena#Green_Line here [Green Line]]). Israelis view the entire country as one, but to give two separate names for two regions of the country is inherently wrong and is based on perpetuating an errant political stand taken by the British in 1937 who sought to divide the country. Moreover, the 1949 Armistice Agreement is no longer binding. While some might refuse to recognize Israel's ''[[de facto]]'' claims and hold of this territory, hoping to return to the pre-1967 border, the reality is such that the entire country is called "Israel" by the Israelis who live here. What's more, in a broader sense, the country's historical and geographical names have '''never changed''', whether Palestine or the Land of Israel. So, I object to your claim that [[UNESCO]] has got more authority than do editors here on Wikipedia who have looked at all the facts. Are you saying that UNESCO's decision to mention Hebron as being in "Palestine" was not politically motivated?  As for [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (West Bank)|Wikipedia's naming conventions]], the issue has not been satisfactorily addressed. My proposal is to leave the "West Bank" just as it is (since it only describes a geographical region that once divided positions held by Israel and Jordan), but to add a disclaimer there, stating to the effect that Wikipedia's use of the words "Palestine" and/or "Israel" are meant to be understood apolitically, and as purely geographical-historical terms used in antiquity. In this manner, we steer clear from politicizing the situation. Whenever editors mention "Israel" and their intent is to describe a political case involving the State of Israel, or the Government of Israel, the words "State of Israel" or "Government of Israel" should preface their editorial entry. Be well.[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 06:46, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:Your wall of text doesn't interest me in the least. Our naming convention can be simply stated: we call things by their common names whenever possible.  If you're taking the position that when UNESCO names a UNESCO World Heritage Site, it doesn't create the common name for that UNESCO WOrld Heritage Site, and we should look instead to what other non-UNESCO entities call it, then your position is extremely foolish and does not deserve any serious attention.  Certainly, it's not going to get any more from me. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 07:39, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::I see no potential justification for {{u|Beyond My Ken}}'s argument.  "Israel" and "Palestine" are not part of UNESCO's name of the site, but only of the list UNESCO assigns it to.  As [[List of World Heritage Sites in Israel]] includes sites ''not'' (yet) designated by UNESCO, but with a tentative designation by the [[State of Israel]], it would be absurd to move a site based on UNESCO's choice of country.  After all, it's a '''World''' Heritage Site, not an Israeli or Palestinian Heritage Site.  — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]]  [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 08:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Let me get this straight, Arthur Rubin, you see no justification for using UNESCO's name for a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Is that correct? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 17:11, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::It should be remembered that UNESCO has an overwhelming Arab membership, those who may have some slight "bias" in their country designation for Hebron, a place, mind you, under Israeli control, and where Jewish towns have sprung-up as in former times, where there was once a large Jewish population before being evicted. I think that Arthur Rubin's point is clear, namely, that when institutions like UNESCO dispute with the Government of Israel who controls the site, this is where maintaining our neutrality should step-in. After all, why do we have [[WP:NPOV]], if not to be upheld in these cases?[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 18:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::So you're saying that the 13 Arab nations which are member states of UNESCO completely dominate the other 137 nations which are members, despite being outnumbered 10.5-to-1, and that's not to mention the 10 Associate Members? [http://en.unesco.org/countries/member-states]. Davidbena, you're throwing a lot of baloney around, and it appears your motivation is not to uphold our naming conventions, it is to win a picayune "victory" for Israel over Palestine.  '''''That''''', Davidbena, is violating [[WP:NPOV]], in case you were wondering.{{parabr}}(And yes, Davidbena, I'd be saying '''''precisely''''' the same thing to an editor who was trying to win such a "victory" for Palestine over Israel.  I'm actually a '''''very''''' strong supporter of the right of Israel to exist and to be safe within its borders, although I'm far from pleased with their policies regarding the West Bank.  You see, one can criticize Israel and not be antisemitic '''''or''''' pro-Palestinian.  I think both sides have behaved terribly, and neither has done much to help craft a solution to a terrifically complex problem.) [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 20:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::{{Re|Beyond My Ken}}, just for the record, what I meant to say is that Israel is vastly outnumbered by the Arab States in the UN and at UNESCO, who can often sway the balance in any vote.[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 18:37, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::It appears that "Palestine" is not part of UNESCO's name of the site.  Even if it were, ''we'' need to decide which lists and categories it belongs in.  As it stands, if [[Hebron]] were excluded, we would need to take {{cat|World Heritage Sites in Israel}} and [[List of World Heritage Sites in Israel]] out of the {{cat|Israel}} hierarchy.  — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]]  [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 20:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::The UNESCO name for the site is "Hebron/Al-Khalil Old Town" and it lists the country it is in as "Palestine". [http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1565]. As long as "Hebron/Al-Khalil Old Town" is use as our name for the site, I don't see any real reason it can't be listed in '''''both''''' Israel and Palestine categories, since both claim the territory.  However, the article itself should describe is as being listed as in Palestine, although the Israeli claim can be mentioned as well. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 20:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::I would like to disagree with BMK here. The WP article on Hebron indicates clearly, both in the text and in its categories, that Hebron is part of contemporary Palestine and not part of contemporary Israel (although of course it is significant to Jewish history). I don't see any reason why articles on World Heritage Sites in Hebron should be classified differently by country than is the town itself, particularly since ''in literally all other cases'' the WP lists of world heritage sites by country follow contemporary national boundaries. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 21:57, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::How many other UNESCO World Heritage Sites are located in a place which is claimed by more than one country? (That's a serious question, I don't know and would like to find out whether this case is ''sui generis'' or not.) [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 22:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::[[User:Beyond My Ken|BMK]], in addition to the Hebron site, [[Battir]] and [[Church of the Nativity]] are in Palestine / claimed by Israel. I know there are zero World Heritage Sites in Taiwan. Unsure about other disputed areas. [[User:Snuge purveyor|Snuge purveyor]] ([[User talk:Snuge purveyor|talk]]) 23:19, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks.  Then perhaps those two sites should be used as models for how the new site should be categorized. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:22, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::Looking through our encyclopaedia, I've also found that the site [[Chersonesus]] is claimed by both Ukraine and Russia. Our infobox on that page does not list a state party, but it is listed in [[:Category:World Heritage Sites in Ukraine]], as this was the original designation by UNESCO and they are maintaining it. [[User:Snuge purveyor|Snuge purveyor]] ([[User talk:Snuge purveyor|talk]]) 23:26, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::::The [[Mughal Gardens]] in Kashmir are in territory claimed by India and Pakistan (but administered by India); heritage sites in [[Tibet]] would also classify as "disputed" and the declaration of the [[Hoh Xil]] region last week was particularly contentious from this point of view. Currently WP does not list the new site among the World Heritage Sites in Tibet (it is in Tibet, and straddles the border between the Tibet autonomous region and the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of China). The sites in [[Lhasa]], designated as the "Historic Ensemble of the Potala Palace", are currently listed on WP as "UNESCO World Heritage Sites in Tibet" which is a nested subcategory of "UNESCO World Heritage Sites in China", for what that's worth. As far as I know, UNESCO itself recognizes the Kashmir site as part of India and the Tibet sites as part of China. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 06:23, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
I have [[Special:Diff/790899579|posted a response]] to this conversation [[Talk:Cave of the Patriarchs/Archive 1#Categorisation with respect to status as World Heritage Site|here]]. [[User:Snuge purveyor|Snuge purveyor]] ([[User talk:Snuge purveyor|talk]]) 21:10, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

There is  falsehood being used as an argument here that must be corrected.  If you look at Israel's response to the Hebron listing, for example [http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/unesco-puts-city-hebron-heritage-danger-list-48495103 here] and [https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4986732,00.html here] (these examples chosen by Davidbena), what you will find is statements like "the move negated the deep Jewish ties to the biblical town and its ancient shrine" and "Israel will present to the world the historical truth and the Jewish People's deep connection—of thousands of years—to Hebron" and similar.  What you don't find there is a claim that Hebron lies in the modern state of Israel.  That's because Israel has never taken steps to annex the site and on the contrary operates a military government there based in the international law of occupation. This is '''not''' a place which is claimed as sovereign territory by two nations, so all arguments based on that assumption have to be set aside.  In summary, "World Heritage Site in Israel" is false because it is not in Israel.  It would be beyond absurd to add a category that makes a claim even beyond Israel's own claim.  Israel's objection to the UNESCO listing should be mentioned in the article, but we are not supposed to use categories as a way of promoting fringe opinions on a dispute. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 10:51, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{Re|Zero0000}}, a colleague on the [[Cave of the Patriarchs]] Talk-Page has suggested a good solution ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cave_of_the_Patriarchs&diff=790958359&oldid=790953283 see here]), and that is to rename the category to read: ''List of World Heritage Sites in Disputed Territories''. This seems to be the most compromising thing that we can do under the current circumstances. Anyway, my own suggestions have not gained much ground here. (As for why Israel has not "formally annexed" the Hebron region is simple to understand. The international and public outcry which would ensue after such a declaration has prevented Israel from doing it on several occasions. Does this mean that Israel does not view the country as united as one nation and one country under the banner of the political [[State of Israel]]? Of course not! Israel still sees the country as one, insisting rather on "''[[de facto]]'' annexation" of Hebron, rather than "''[[de jure]]'' annexation," for the reason I mentioned above). Anyway, in the spirit of compromise, can we agree to change the category to read: "World Heritage Sites in Disputed Territories"? ---[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 13:09, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:: David, your facts are wrong and the "compromise" is not a compromise at all but rather a surrender to the Israeli fringe position. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]]<sup><small>[[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]]</small></sup> 20:40, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Lol. Believe me that I am at ease with my conscience, knowing who is actually in control here. Nothing can be done in Hebron without the approbation of the Israeli government. As for Wikipedia, here we're trying to "paint" some civility into the overall "convoluted" picture. Let's hear what other editors have to say about the change of category to "World Heritage Sites in Disputed Territories."[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 20:54, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
::::I don't think it would be particularly useful as a category. [[User:Seraphim System|<span style="font-family:Candara; color:#cc00cc; text-shadow:#b3b3cc 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">'''Seraphim System'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Seraphim System|<span style="color:#009900">talk</span>]])</sup> 21:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
::The solution propososed just above by Davidbena is to use a new category: ''List of World Heritage Sites in Disputed Territories''. That category would more accurately be titled {{tq|List of World Heritage Sites in Territories disputed by Wikipedia editors}}. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 23:36, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:::That could end up being a much longer list, couldn't it? If people go back to "historical" assertions of belonging for heritage sites, the whole idea of discrete territoriality would be basically out the window. [[User:Newimpartial|Newimpartial]] ([[User talk:Newimpartial|talk]]) 23:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Guys, you made me laugh here. So my suggestions, once more, have garnered no support. Fine. I have no qualms about that. Consensus is what matters here. On a lighter note, I have read where the Israeli Prime-Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, wants to build a museum near or adjacent to the [[Cave of the Patriarchs]] in Hebron so as to preserve the memorial of Jewish history on that site. Perhaps then we can discuss the name of the category such a museum would conjure up in our minds. Maybe, "The Israeli-built museums in Palestine." Wow, that for me would be like preserving the country's mediaeval namesake, which I'm perfectly fine with. Cheers![[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 00:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
'''A Question to Administrators:''' Is the use of the word "Palestine," as a "political entity," correct when used as it is in the current category, "World Heritage Sites in Palestine"? The question must be taken in consideration of the following facts: It is true that the Government of Israel has not made any "''[[de jure]]''" declaration of annexation with regard to Hebron, although the Israeli government has and still does place Hebron and the "West Bank" on maps that are designated entirely as "Israel," or the "State of Israel." I have read also in other places that there is actually a "''[[de facto]]''" annexation of these places by the Government of Israel (which sources I can provide if anyone is interested in seeing them). On a practical level, however, any authority that the [[Palestinian Authority]] might have over the Arab population of Hebron and its immediate regions has been given to it by the [[State of Israel]], with respect to civil laws and administration, and must still coordinate with Israel over security matters based on the [[Oslo Accords]]. This means that the State of Israel is still an active player in everything that concerns life in Hebron. Land Administration of this region is still largely in the sole hands and responsibility of the Israeli Government, under the “[[Custodian of Absentee Property|Custodian of Absentee Property & Israel Land Authority of Judea and Samaria]],” an office attached to the Israeli Ministry of Defense/Civil Administration, and which bases its jurisdiction on the "Absentee Property – Judea and Samaria Act- 59/1967." So, is it correct for us to be listing any "World Heritage Site" in Palestine (the political entity known as such), simply because UNESCO decided to do so?[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 17:29, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
:Your "question to administrator" is not an administrator issue.  Admins don't rule on content, only behavior.  In fact, this entire thread is essentially a '''''content dispute''''' that should have been shut down long ago. '''I request that this thread be closed''''. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 22:18, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
::So then based purely on your recommendation that administrators are only required to intervene in behavioral issues or whenever there is misconduct of Wikipedia contributors, I am alleging here what to me seems to be a blatant "misconduct" by co-editors wishing to advocate their own political agenda, infringing upon the guidelines set in [[WP:SOAPBOX]], insofar that they are pushing a "pro-Palestinian" ("anti-Israel") agenda, hoping to expunge the fact that the Israeli Government controls the administration of the "[[West Bank]]", and to highlight their displeasure over Israel's hold of this territory (mind you, disputed territory, based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel_Palestine_Collaboration/Current_Article_Issues/Archive._Legality_of_Israeli_settlements#Settlement_illegality_text Disputed legality of Israeli settlements]). The same co-editors have insisted on using the word "Palestine" with regard to the West Bank (in the sense of a political entity, and in spite of the fact that there is no sovereign "State of Palestine"), when they should have rather steered clear from this contentious issue and used the word "West Bank" instead, just as it is outlined specifically in Wikipedia's policy, described under [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (West Bank)]]. There's no need for us, as impartial editors, to politicize this issue, hoping to influence others by calling the region by a different name. The category that now reads "World Heritage Sites in Palestine" ought to be changed to read "World Heritage Sites in the West Bank."[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 11:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::What's more, per [[Wikipedia:Consensus defined]], "Consensus is often confused for the attainment of a specific percentage of votes in support of something. As Wikipedia is not a democracy, it is not based on votes, but on consensus as defined above. Therefore, consensus constitutes not an inflexible number, but a range of criteria and factors which can mold to every one of the discussions on Wikipedia."[[User:Davidbena|Davidbena]] ([[User talk:Davidbena|talk]]) 15:17, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
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== Looking for someone with admin rights on Simple English and or Commons ==
{{atop|result=Cross wiki vandalism only IP/troll- block extended to six months here and ignoring their rants elsewhere. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 17:27, 20 July 2017 (UTC)}}
My talk pages at both are under attack by a cross wiki IP troll (71.218.16.215) that I have blocked here. I tried reporting them at the Commons Vandalism noticeboard but the IP keeps deleting the report. I don't do a lot at Commons and have never set foot in Simple English until tonight. Frankly I would be more than happy to just ignore the little <s>SOB</s>... er creep, but I keep getting notifications which I have to look at since they may be from here. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 04:29, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:I gave him 2 weeks on commons. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 04:33, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::I doubt you'll find any Simple admins here, there are only 16 on the entire project, and not all of those are active. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 06:37, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::I blocked the IP for 72 hours on Simple. --[[User:Auntof6|Auntof6]] ([[User talk:Auntof6|talk]]) 07:16, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Hut 8.5}} a few of us also edit here. I, Djsasso, and Bsadowski1 are the only ones with rights here and there so far as I'm aware. [[User:Only|only]] ([[User talk:Only#top|talk]]) 11:44, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Thanks for the help y'all. They have moved on to another wiki to continue their silliness. Rather than play wack a mole I've decided to just turn off cross wiki notifications. It's not a big deal since the only other wiki I edit even rarely is Commons. They can rant to their hearts content in an empty room. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 14:38, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
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== [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jionakeli]] ==
{{archive top|result=Not needed anymore since the filer has withdrawn complaint and issues are being discussed elsewhere right now. [[User:Capitals00|Capitals00]] ([[User talk:Capitals00|talk]]) 08:40, 20 July 2017 (UTC)}}
I am requesting another <s>neutral administrator who '''don't edit Indian political and religious articles'''</s> ([[WP:UNINVOLVED]]) to mark this case as closed if they think the evidence is circumstantial and weak. The filer {{u|Capitals00}} has previously caught many clever sockpuppets who were actively editing without any suspicion. {{u|Vanamonde93}} has the same POV as Jionakeli. There are many sock/meat farm active n these areas as recently blocked {{u|Terabar}}, {{u|ProudIndian007}} and {{u|Niyazib}}. In Vanamonde93's RFA, it was pointed out that Vanamonde [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Xtremedood/Archive#18 May 2015|supported]] Xtremedood's sock {{u|Calm321}} --<strong><span style="font-family: 'Tempus Sans ITC'">[[User:Marvellous Spider-Man|<b style="color:Red">Marvellous</b>]] [[User talk:Marvellous Spider-Man|<span style="color:OrangeRed;">Spider-Man</span>]]</span></strong> 05:03, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{u|Marvellous Spider-Man}} So, you want an neutral admin who doesn't edit Indian political and religious articles.  What religion would you like them to practice?  Do you want male or female, or is transgendered OK?  Could you please indicate what race and ethnicity would be acceptable to you?  What other subjects should they not edit?  Are there enduring Wikipedia controversies that you would prefer they hold certain positions on?{{parabr}}You do realize that by asking for "a neutral administrator who '''don't edit Indian political and religious articles'''" you are insulting every single admin who has ever edited in that area by accusing them of being unable to be unbiased in their close, don't you? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:31, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

::No, I don't. I thought, I can't ask any specific administrator. I don't know know how many meanings could come out of a statement. No, I don't want to insult every administrator here. I respect all who does hard work here, by protecting this project and giving their time. '''English is not my first language'''.  I don't even live in any English speaking country. But, I am disagreeing with Vanmaonde93's decision. Maybe I should consult English speaking people somewhere on Reference desk, before posting another comment.

::Previously, one of my statements about administrator's privacy was misunderstood. I wanted to write something else and a different meaning came out. --<strong><span style="font-family: 'Tempus Sans ITC'">[[User:Marvellous Spider-Man|<b style="color:Red">Marvellous</b>]] [[User talk:Marvellous Spider-Man|<span style="color:OrangeRed;">Spider-Man</span>]]</span></strong> 05:40, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Also, you realize that when you accused Vanamonde93 of having not made a neutral decision in closing the SPI, and of "protecting" Jionakeli, you were accusing the '''''wrong administrator'''''.  The SPI was closed by '''''Vanjagenije''''', not Vanamonde93. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Jionakeli&diff=791365335&oldid=790788441]  I think you owe everyone involved a great big apology.{{parabr}} And, listen, you're not a newbie, you've been here a year and have 14,000 edits.  If you cannot communicate in English sufficiently to accurately put across your thoughts and idea, '''''why the hell are you editing ENGLISH Wikipedia?'''''  Wouldn't you be better off editing the Wikipedia of your native tongue? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:45, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

::::Yes, you are 100% right, I am taking a big break. Sorry to {{u|Vanamonde93}}  and {{u|Vanjagenije}}. '''I think I also deserve to be blocked for this'''.--<strong><span style="font-family: 'Tempus Sans ITC'">[[User:Marvellous Spider-Man|<b style="color:Red">Marvellous</b>]] [[User talk:Marvellous Spider-Man|<span style="color:OrangeRed;">Spider-Man</span>]]</span></strong> 05:49, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::No, I disagree, that's the kind of thing editors are blocked for if they do it repeatedly and deliberately.  Anyone can make a mistake once or twice.  Take your break and come back refreshed -- at least that's my opinion.[[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:51, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

*I think this had to be cleared on the talk page of Vanjagenije first. I have left comments on [[User talk:Vanjagenije#Jionakeli]]. [[User:Capitals00|Capitals00]] ([[User talk:Capitals00|talk]])  06:10, 20 July 2017‎ (UTC)
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== Protection of article ==
{{atop|Protected. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 16:28, 20 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Hi, I had requested for protection of [[President of India]] article as there is a lot of disruptive editing and Persistent addition of unsourced or poorly sourced content. Please do the needful thanking --[[User:Tiven2240|'''<span style="background color: black; color: orange">✝iѵ</span><span style="color: blue">ɛɳ</span>'''<span style="color: green">२२४०</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tiven2240|<span style="color: maroon">†ลℓк †๏ мэ</span>]]</sup> 13:28, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{done}} per [[WP:RFPP]]. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 13:36, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
== Backlog ==
{{atop|<small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> Backlog has been cleared. [[User:MarnetteD|MarnetteD]]&#124;[[User talk:MarnetteD|Talk]] 16:27, 22 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Could someone please handle some requests at [[WP:RPP]]? Thanks. [[User:Home Lander|Home Lander]] ([[User talk:Home Lander|talk]]) 22:11, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:No pending requests for protection at this time. [[User:Samsara|Samsara]] 03:33, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
==Linkin Park page==
{{Resolved}}
There's a malicious redirect embedded into the [[Linkin Park]] page right now. Redirects to something called the GNAA. Clicking anywhere on the article leads me to this page: {{redacted||}} [[User:Doc Strange| Doc Strange]]<sup>[[User talk:Doc Strange|Mailbox]]</sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Doc Strange|Logbook]]</small> 04:22, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
: {{vandal|Gags n goofs}} is responsible via {{lt|BillboardID/L}}. —&thinsp;[[User:JJMC89|JJMC89]]&thinsp;<small>([[User talk:JJMC89|T]]'''·'''[[Special:Contributions/JJMC89|C]])</small> 04:39, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
:: Resolved with help from {{U|Anna Frodesiak}}. —&thinsp;[[User:JJMC89|JJMC89]]&thinsp;<small>([[User talk:JJMC89|T]]'''·'''[[Special:Contributions/JJMC89|C]])</small> 04:56, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Happy to help. [[User:Anna Frodesiak|Anna Frodesiak]] ([[User talk:Anna Frodesiak|talk]]) 05:22, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

:::(Sorry about the sloppy revdel here that removed the url. I was busy off-wiki at the same time in a bit of an emergency.) [[User:Anna Frodesiak|Anna Frodesiak]] ([[User talk:Anna Frodesiak|talk]]) 05:35, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Here be backlogs! ==
{{Archive top|reason=Cleared for now. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 15:33, 21 July 2017 (UTC)}}
[[WP:AIV]] this time. Cheers. [[User:My name is not dave|<sup style="color:#093">My name is</sup><small style="color:#4000FF">not</small><sup style="color:#093">dave</sup>]] <small>([[User talk:My name is not dave|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/My name is not dave|contribs]])</small> 12:38, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

{{Clear}}
== JuiianPE socks ==
{{Archivetop|reason=Being dealt with at [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#JuiianPE_socks|ANI]]. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 01:38, 23 July 2017 (UTC)}}
I stumbled upon these three accounts with the same name: [[User:JuiianPema|JuiianPema]], [[User:Juiianpe1|Juiianpe1]], and [[User:JuiianPe|JuiianPe]]. All these accounts so far have made disruptive edits even after he was warned twice. They also continue to put the wrong information up and I suspect these are sockpuppets accounts. [[User:Nuobgu|Nuobgu]] ([[User talk:Nuobgu|talk]]) 20:34, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
{{Archivebottom}}

{{Clear}}
== Cherry Valley ==
{{atop|Not much more to be done here. [[User:Blackmane|Blackmane]] ([[User talk:Blackmane|talk]]) 03:28, 25 July 2017 (UTC)}}
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Magicpiano#Cherry_Valley |Basically] I'm getting the impression I'm 'not allowed' to edit on that page. Am I doing something wrong? [[Special:Contributions/208.96.66.213|208.96.66.213]] ([[User talk:208.96.66.213|talk]]) 20:50, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
*For starters, you posted this at WP:AN, not WP:ANI.  Second, this is a content dispute, not a behavioral issue.  You raised the issue at the editor's talk page, they gave you a calm, detailed explanation with links to the relevant policies.  Where you should have raised it was the article talk page at [[Cherry Valley massacre]].  And on the merits, he is correct that we generally avoid references in the lede unless it is really controversial claims.  Not everything belongs in the lede, which is why we have a full article and not just a lede.  What should and shouldn't be in the lede is a topic for, again, the talk page of the article, not any administration board.  Admin don't decide content.  You also forgot to notify the of this discussion, something that is required.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 21:11, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

:The editor and I have also tangled at [[Talk:Jane McCrea]].  S/he is invited to continue discussion at my talk page, or on those article talk pages. ''[[User:Magicpiano|<span style="background-color:khaki;color:firebrick;">Magic</span>]]''[[User_talk:Magicpiano|♪piano]] 21:16, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

It is a behavior-issue. You have to respect freedom of speech, and, freedom to edit in Wikipedia as long as it complies with the rules. The Wikipedia: Intro. page explicitly states rules of mentioning controversies in the 'lede.' What you're basically doing (I have a psychology credit) is common criticism/self-criticism[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/world/asia/china-revives-mao-era-self-criticism-but-this-kind-bruises-few-egos.html] where you state your claim -- not in logical persuasion or rational thinking -- but with ''this is what you've done, this is how it makes me feel, this is what I want you to do.'' Basically, you can already tell that it's only the 'accuser' that gets to make the rules. You're just not making any solid arguments. That's --->why<--- I tried to get the administrators involved. Should I throw my credit out because you don't agree with the former sentence? No. 

And another thing; you basically just-so-happened to find one of the edits on a couple different pages on teh NW campaign but, I ''tackled'' you... Nice, very nice. Well, just so you're wondering, I edited the Minisink page too. So, take a look at that later? -- for me? Thanks in advance, but I'm gonna take a break  for a while. See you in a couple of week or months, I don't know. [[Special:Contributions/208.96.66.213|208.96.66.213]] ([[User talk:208.96.66.213|talk]]) 03:00, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
:This is a private website, and there is no right to "freedom of speech" here.  All there is, is the opportunity to improve the encyclopedia, if you follow our policies.  If you don't, your edits will be reverted. If you don't discuss your edits when they are disputed, and get a consensus from other editors to keep them, they will not be accepted for the article.{{parabr}}As for your vaunted "psychology credit", every Tom, Dick, and Harry has a psychology credit these days, and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference: you '''''still''''' have to follow the policies and procedures, and when you discuss disputed edits, you '''''still''''' have to discuss '''''the edits themselves''''' and <u>not</u> your analysis of the other editors psychology. If you continue to do that -- discuss the editor and not the edits -- I can pretty much guarantee that some admin will relieve you of the heady responsibility of editing here at all, at least until you reconsider your behavior. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 03:48, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
== Emergency bot stop needed ==
{{archive top|Being discussed at [[Wikipedia_talk:Bot_Approvals_Group#Bot_stop_needed]]. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 07:41, 24 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Several bots are changing categories from "X architecture in New York" to "X architecture in New York (state)", but they are ignoring the fact that a number of the places are located in New York City and need to be placed in "X architecture in New York City".  I've oplaced stop requests on the talk page of several of these bots, but no stop has happened.  These bots should be stopped until this issue can be discussed. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 06:46, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
{{ab}}

== UAA backlog ==

15 reports. Could someone clear it please? Thanks, [[User:My name is not dave|<sup style="color:#093">My name is</sup><small style="color:#4000FF">not</small><sup style="color:#093">dave</sup>]] <small>([[User talk:My name is not dave|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/My name is not dave|contribs]])</small> 09:54, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:*''Bangs head against wall''* How many times do editors have to see '''Wait Until The User Edits'''- but ''still'' clog the bloody board up with the likes of [[Safeandsoundmedia|this]] and [[ Rye Sera The Hand Dyed Project|this]]?! Hells bells. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 10:03, 20 July 2017 (UTC)</small>
::*Actually, I've never understood that proscription.  If a username is a violation of policy, it is a violation whether or not the user has edited or not.  The name has nothing to do with the quality of the edits, and everything to do with the Username policy -- so why are we told to wait instead of nipping the problem in the bud? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 14:02, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::::[[WP:USERNAME]] says this: "The following types of usernames are not permitted because they are considered promotional: Usernames that unambiguously represent the name of a company, group, institution or product". That first example is exactly that, and a soft block at the least is needed. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 14:04, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::{{re|RickinBaltimore}} But in the same section it goes on to say, "A user who both adopts a promotional username and also engages in inappropriately promotional behaviors in articles about the company, group, or product, can be blocked."  I've always read this, as has BMK, to mean that a user who only adopts a promotional username but doesn't engage in inappropriately promotional behaviours ''can't'' be blocked.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 14:42, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::I think there needs to be clarification on that then, because I read that if a name is a violation, it's not allowed. Hence a promotional name and no edits = soft block to require a name change, promotional name and promo edits = hard block. I could be wrong though. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 14:44, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::Just to clarify my position, my interpretation of the policy is the same as RickinBaltimore's, that any violation should be dealt with, even if no editing has taken place. What I was grousing about is that the actual '''''application''''' of the policy by admins patrolling UAA follows GoldenRing's interpretation, which I believe is inappropriate.  (Nothing personal towards GoldenRing, who is simply following the ''ad hoc'' interpretation followed by most admins at UAA.) [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 15:18, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::FWIW, BMK, I also agree- and back in the day had too many submissions rejected on those grounds! Nevertheless, it's still point #7 at the very top of the WP:UAA page, so- &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 16:28, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::Oh, sorry, I misunderstood.  Nonetheless, that's how I read the policy.  The point is made again a bit further down:
{{quote|Remember that blocking a new user is not actually something we want to do, it is something we do when it is needed to protect Wikipedia from harm. Generally, editors whose usernames are a technical or borderline violation of the Username policy should be given an opportunity to discuss the username and how they may register a new username. However, users who are reluctant to register a new username and are otherwise showing a positive history of contributions to Wikipedia should be allowed to continue editing in a positive fashion and the matter should be dropped. But this exemption does not apply to editors who have a clearly offensive username, disruptive or vandalizing edits, or edits that show a history of problematic bias or conflict of interest.}}
:::::::::I still don't see how you can read that to mean, "Block them on sight."  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 16:23, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::{{Re|GoldenRing}}---Can you point at promotional usernames that have turned out to be good contributors?I don't recall coming across one![[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style= "color:green">''Winged Blades''</span>]]<sup>[[User  talk:Winged Blades of Godric| Godric]]</sup>  18:11, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::No.  But that's not exactly the point.  I prefer to be careful to block accounts within policy, and I think that's what the community prefers, too.  IAR is there, but I think it's to be used vanishingly rarely when it comes to blocking.  If common practice is against policy, one or the other needs to change.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 10:48, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
::{{re|GoldenRing}} That text you pointed out is a little misleading; what it really means is "hard blocked". We soft block promotional usernames. We hard block promotional usernames that are editing promotionally. Soft blocks just tell them to pick a new username, basically. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 23:43, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{re|BU Rob13}} I know that's how some commonly interpret it, but it's not what it says.  I'll start a discussion over at [[WT:U]] about clarifying this.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 10:46, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

== Any way to search for deleted articles? ==

Hey all, is there any way to search for deleted articles using a wildcard or something? A sock operator (namely [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Washim Rahman|this guy]]) has created several articles on an Indian actor called Prem Khan. The original article was salted, and I'm curious if there's a way to get a list of the various circumvention attempts, i.e. articles with minor spelling/caps changes or different disambiguations. Ex: [[Prem Khan (indian actor)]], [[Prem Khan (Indian Actor)]], [[Prem Khan (actor)]], etc. Thanks, [[User:Cyphoidbomb|Cyphoidbomb]] ([[User talk:Cyphoidbomb|talk]]) 06:34, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
:Have a Look at the item about "fuzzy search" in the middle of this month's [[WP:ADMINNEWS]] for how this might be accomplished. I haven't tried it yet, but if the feature has been enabled, it should be possible. —[[User:DoRD|DoRD]] ([[User talk:DoRD|talk]]) 11:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
:And [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?prefix=Prem+Khan+&title=Special%3AUndelete&fuzzy=1 there you have it]. —[[User:DoRD|DoRD]] ([[User talk:DoRD|talk]]) 11:34, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

==Signature question==
Does [[WP:AGF]] and [[WP:NPA]] apply to customised signatures? I've recently come across an editor with a customised signature that attacks a certain group of editors, and doesn't show good faith towards that group. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 17:45, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:[[Wikipedia:Signatures#Dealing_with_problematic_signatures|Dealing with problematic signatures]] "Wikipedia's Username policy describes accepted practices and behavior in naming and operating a user account on Wikipedia that apply to both usernames and signatures" [[Wikipedia:Username policy|Username policy]]: "The following types of usernames are prohibited: Contain words or phrases that are likely to offend other contributors ... Contain or imply personal attacks or contain contentious material about living persons"  If it applies to the username, it applies to the signature. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 17:57, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
::Following further discussion at [[User talk:Maile66]], it seems that the particular editor I had in mind has already been discussed. There are better things for me to waste my time on that pursuing this particular issue, although I am glad to learn that the general principle holds firm and is backed by policy. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 07:58, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
:::It's enlightening to see an admin willfully defying the requirement to notify the editor under discussion, especially when retaliating for criticism of an inappropriate administrative action. [[User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz|The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo).  Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006.  ]] ([[User talk:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz|talk]]) 11:11, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
::::{{reply|Hullaballoo Wolfowitz}} Doesn't this count? [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=791045433&oldid=790635606&title=User_talk:Maile66 ] &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 11:17, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::That just proves my point. The admin is admitting that they've violated the requirement. The applicable requirement states "When you start a discussion about an editor, you <u>must</u> leave a notice on the editor's talk page". It doesn't say "unless you leave the editor's name/ID out", especially if you identify them in other discussions. Note, in particular, that the admin used the "noping" template in the edit you cite, which makes their intent not to notify pretty much unmistakeable. [[User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz|The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo).  Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006.  ]] ([[User talk:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz|talk]]) 12:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

==Anyone read about the guy who locked himself inside an ATM last week?==
Yes, true story. I'm in a sort of virtual equivalent here. This is my doppelganger account. If someone could revert to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Fuhghettaboutit/common.js&oldid=742910925 this revision of my common.js] that I was fiddling with after [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Save changes buttons - accessibility|this VPT discussion]], I assume my main account will once again ''<u>have</u> a save changes button''. Maybe I'll get an honorable mention at the [[Wikipedia:Village stocks]] out of this.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit2|Fuhghettaboutit2]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit2|talk]]) 23:12, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{smiley}} {{done}} --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 23:17, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::Ha! Thanks. Gonna log back in; finger's crossed.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit2|Fuhghettaboutit2]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit2|talk]]) 23:21, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Yes! Back up. But now I'm terrified to make any further changes to it (and I still have no access to an edit summary field).--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 23:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::You do know that using the preview button the JS already executes on the previewed page without saving? Next time, just preview and if the save button disappears, well, you can't save those changes anyway {{=)|wink}} Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="color: #7A2F2F; font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color: #474F84; font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]]''' 13:55, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::::I've deleted the common.js page entirely, so Fuhghettaboutit should be able to leave edit summaries now, even before undeleting it :-)  [http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/13/us/repairman-stuck-in-atm-room-trnd/index.html Convenience link] in case you didn't read about the ATM guy.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 23:57, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::I'm putting in a stocks entry for this one.  Absolutely priceless.—[[User:Cyberpower678|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">CYBERPOWER</span>''']] <span style="font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:Cyberpower678|<span style="color:red">Message</span>]])</span> 23:59, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::{{yo|Fuhghettaboutit}} You have been sentenced to the [[Wikipedia:Village_stocks#Fuhghettaboutit_for_the_I_broke_my_account_award|Village Stocks]].—[[User:Cyberpower678|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">CYBERPOWER</span>''']] <span style="font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:Cyberpower678|<span style="color:red">Message</span>]])</span> 00:11, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Do you have a screenshot for what this looked like?  I'm curious :-)  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 00:19, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::If not, we can always restore the JS to your last revision so you can make one. ;-) :D—[[User:Cyberpower678|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">CYBERPOWER</span>''']] <span style="font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:Cyberpower678|<span style="color:red">Message</span>]])</span> 00:21, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::
{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle" | [[Image:Chapeltown Stocks.jpg|100px]]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | You have been sentenced to the '''[[WP:STOCKS|Village Stocks]]'''  
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | for locking yourself out of your account
|}
Sorry I had to do that<br>Regards, [[User:TheDragonFire300]]. ([[User:TheDragonFire300/talk|Contact me]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/TheDragonFire300|Contributions]]). This message was left at 03:38, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{od}}You could've probably avoided the public embarrassment by turning off javascript in your browser for long enough to revert. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 00:22, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::Or edit at the mobile version, or add <code>&safemode=1</code> to the edit url. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 00:41, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::I never would have thought of the first one, I had no idea that the second would be different, and I've never heard of safe mode.  I would have had to use my alternate account, too, had I done this to myself :-)  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 00:55, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks all. {{yo|Cryptic}} Turn off javascript... hmph, should of thought of that. {{yo|PrimeHunter}} Good to know about the safe mode. {{Yo|Nyttend}} I've screenshotted at [[:File:No save page button.png]] (I'm going to delete this file later today).  I'm going to undelete the js file because the lack of edit summary ability was not from there but from my common.css – not playing nice with the recent "improvements" and anyway, {{U|Cyberpower678}}'s link at the village stocks (thanks, lol) will not work except for admins without it existing.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 12:36, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::Ah, sorry, I misunderstood.  I always assumed that you'd undelete it quickly; this was just a temporary move to allow you to edit normally until you knew how to fix it.  Had you not been an admin, I would have just reverted it somewhere, but I figured this way I could be sure of not causing more problems :-)  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 13:43, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:I'll meekly put my hand up and confess that I recently managed to create a user javascript that set the following CSS: <pre>body { display: none; }</pre>  The effects can be imagined.  I eventually switched javascript off for long enough to fix it.  I'd previously tried mobile, which didn't work for reasons I never figured out, but didn't know about safemode.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 14:48, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::You guys do know that modern browsers have Inspectors (press F12 usually) that allow you to change the rendering of a page on the fly? That does include removing custom CSS from the rendered page ;-) Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="color: #7A2F2F; font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color: #474F84; font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]]''' 18:36, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Of course I know that... That's not why I deleted my monobook.css twice to avoid not entering an edit summary ;> –[[User:xeno|<b style="font-family:verdana;color:#000">xeno</b>]][[user talk:xeno|<sup style="color:#000">talk</sup>]] 19:39, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::Yes.  But for reasons that escaped me at the time (and still do), I couldn't change the 'display' attribute on the body element using Chrome's developer tools.  I wasn't interested enough to figure out why.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 13:54, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

== Spammy socks ==
{{LinkSummary|cooldudes.store}}

Just came across {{User5|MichelByard77}}, {{User5|JaiMiranda33}}, {{User5|TaylorBoothby38}}, {{User5|TillyMullaly5}} and {{User5|AntonyBouldin14}}. All of them had a link to "cooldudes.store" on their, now deleted, user page. JaiMiranda33 and TillyMullaly5 created an article each, also deleted. I've also blocked them as spammers. Just a heads up in case there is more of this. And I didn't bother to notify them about this. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]], [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Sunasuttuq]] 08:18, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
:And {{User5|NoemiCruickshank}}, {{User5|ThanhBourgeois0}}, {{User5|ArnoldRudd}},  {{User5|SunnyRuth93491}} and {{User5|RodKuehner80}}. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]], [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Sunasuttuq]] 10:16, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
::[[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TillyMullaly5|SPI case filed]] and I placed it for a COIBot Poke as well to see if other IPs or accounts are involved.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 11:36, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Note that the report is now there, and contains way more than what is listed here or at AN.  I have taken the freedom to blacklist: {{bl-diff|791622963}}; see {{bl-log|791622951#cooldudes.store}}.  New editors now will either pop up in the spam blacklist log .. or they will do something else.  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 12:38, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

* Open proxies blocked along with accounts, IP ranges and more than 80 spambots. SPI case closed and this thread can probably be closed now.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 21:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
:*We really need to be more ready to blacklist spammed sites.  Yes, we can overlook a single not-bad-faith incident, e.g. the person who adds spam once and doesn't come back; it needs to be reverted, but that's not the hardened spamming that I'm meaning.  I'm talking about when you knowingly and persistently add spam: in particular, either users who sock to add spam or users who break other obvious policies to do it, especially the [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive267#SEO_spam_attack|Matthew Woodward approach]] of simultaneously hoaxing and spamming by replacing dead links in citations with spam.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 23:30, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks all. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]], [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Sunasuttuq]] 01:25, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

== Data breach which left numerous users at risk ==

Hi, last day I found out that I was hit by a data leak of [http://mail.km.ru Kyril and Methodius  email service] along with 1.5 million people. I took many precautionary measures but I'm not feel satisfied yet so I'm here to ask all admins to lock all Wikipedia accounts that're associated with these e-posta domains below, lest they'll be hacked and used for vandalism and trolling:

*@km.ru
*@freemail.ru
*@bossmail.ru
*@boymail.ru
*@girlmail.ru
*@megabox.ru
*@safebox.ru


There even [http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/hacking/teen-cyber-anakin-hacker-wants-revenge-on-russia-after-the-mh17-crash/news-story/bb2eecdc37c54f2b5b3800dd26ef4caf got media coverage] but KM so far didn't issue any fixes or remedies yet. I feel like a girl who got cheated by husband.


As for me I'll request an indefinite self-request block for everlasting failproof safeguard.

[[User:Pavel Novikov|Pavel Novikov]] ([[User talk:Pavel Novikov|talk]]) 15:41, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{ping|Pavel Novikov}} Wikipedia administrators can't lock accounts; that is reserved for [[m:Stewards]]. I also do not believe any action will be taken unless there is specific evidence of account compromise, since after all, only ''systems'' administrators can see user email addresses.--[[User:Jasper Deng|Jasper Deng]] [[User talk:Jasper Deng|(talk)]] 18:42, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
::Further, only WMF employees with full database access can see email addresses. --[[User:Guerillero|<span style="color:#0b0080;">Guerillero</span>]] &#124; [[User_talk:Guerillero|<span style="color:green;">Parlez Moi</span>]] 23:54, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

== Font used in box introducing policy and related pages ==

Please have a look at the text in the box at the top of your favorite policy. Some pages may need to be [[WP:PURGE|purged]] in order to see the current state. For example, I just purged [[WP:V]] to see the effect in the "This page documents..." and "This page in a nutshell..." boxes at the top. There is a discussion [[Template talk:Policy#Reverse recent decisions related to line break and font size|here]]. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 08:02, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

==Dispute resolution RfC==
Hello. You are invited to comment on [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution/2017 RfC|this RfC]], which seeks to reform certain aspects of Wikipedia's dispute resolution processes. [[User_talk:Biblioworm|Biblio]] ([[User_talk:Biblioworm#top|talk]])  15:48, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

== [[WP:AE]] ==

There is a discussion about Arbitration Enforcement, including changing some of the sanctions admin use on articles at WP:AE, and input from other admin would be helpful. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Consensus_Required_restriction_in_American_Politics Discussion here]. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 11:41, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

== Backlog  at CFDS ==

We're currently up to '''<s>301</s> <s>321</s> <s>341</s> 395 categories''' listed at [[WP:CFDS]], and many more are likely to be added over the next several days. It would be nice if admins other than  myself (as the mass-nominator) coud help keep up with processing them. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 03:22, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|Od Mishehu}} I went to have a look at this, but having never done this before, I'm not clear what needs to be done. Is it a matter of checking that I agree it meets one of the C2 criteria, waiting until it's been listed 48 hours without objection, then moving the listing from [[WP:CFDS]] to [[WP:CFDW#Speedy moves]]? [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 07:52, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
::Yes. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 07:53, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
:::I did a few as well, although I'm a bit nervous I might have screwed up, so please let me know if I did anything wrong. If not, I can come back and do more :) &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 15:13, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
::::No screwups so far. I'm a bit worried that {{ul|Cydebot}} is a little slow, but that's {{ul|Cyde}}'s problem, not yours. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 17:43, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::And as Cyde's taken more than a year and a half to make his last fifty edits, I doubt he's going to be updating the bot in the near future.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 00:47, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
{{unindent}}'''Current status''': Everything that was moved to CFDW has been processed; we have 415 open requests, and many of these can be moved to CFDW. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 07:46, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
:Heads up, there's some question over some of the New York → New York (state) category moves here:[[Wikipedia_talk:Bot_Approvals_Group#Bot_stop_needed]]. Not sure if you'd have seen it, {{u|Od Mishehu}}, but you might want to drop by. &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 14:32, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

== Rangeblock? ==

Can one of you investigate the feasability of a rangeblock that incorporates 223.136.147.32, 223.137.141.175, and 223.137.149.14? {{U|Favonian}} already blocked the last one because it was used by an LTA. Thanks! [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 15:08, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
:[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&user=&page=User:223.136.0.0%2F16 223.136.0.0/16] was already blocked for a year, and I have now imposed the same sanction of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&user=&page=User:223.137.0.0%2F16 223.137.0.0/16] in view of their long and faithful service to the community. [[User:Favonian|Favonian]] ([[User talk:Favonian|talk]]) 16:51, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
::Thank you much. Favonian, it seems to me that our community owes you a cookie, a medal, a raise, and a six-pack of [[Evil Twin Brewing|Evil Twin]] for your service. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 17:32, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
:::You're on! I'll collect as soon as all anonymous editing from Taipei is blocked. [[User:Favonian|Favonian]] ([[User talk:Favonian|talk]]) 18:19, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

== Possible SNOW close? ==

Could an uninvolved admin take a look at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stubbs (cat)]]? I'm on the losing end of this one, but I do think we have reached a point where further dragging it out no longer serves a useful purpose. -[[User:Ad Orientem|Ad Orientem]] ([[User talk:Ad Orientem|talk]]) 00:37, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:Not an admin, ''per se'', but {{done}}. [[User:Ansh666|ansh]][[User talk:Ansh666|<span style="font-size:80%">''666''</span>]] 01:17, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

== Redirect request ==

I was hoping an admin could create [[Drug Saf.]] and [[Drug Saf]] as redirects to [[Drug Safety]] (which I just created). I can't create either redirect as they are both on the local and/or global blacklists. Thank you. [[User:Everymorning|Everymorning]] [[User talk:Everymorning|(talk)]] 02:42, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:Sure, done. [[User:Killiondude|Killiondude]] ([[User talk:Killiondude|talk]]) 02:46, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

== [[User talk:112.202.18.169]] is on a blacklist?? ==
{{Resolved}}
Hello, I tried to welcome [[User talk:112.202.18.169]] after they edited constructively, but was met with a notice saying the page was salted and on a global blacklist, and to use AN for help. Is there a reason this page is creation-protected? Thanks, [[User:L3X1|L3X1]] [[User talk:L3X1|<small>(distænt write)</small>]] [[Special:Contributions/L3X1|<small>)evidence(</small>]] 02:56, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:For some reason, TW wouldn't let me start a post, but I was able to hand welcome them. If the page is not supposed to exist, then that may need to be undone. If it is not on any blacklist, than is it an error that that message was displayed? [[User:L3X1|L3X1]] [[User talk:L3X1|<small>(distænt write)</small>]] [[Special:Contributions/L3X1|<small>)evidence(</small>]] 02:58, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:: {{U|Cyberpower678}} goofed. [[Special:Diff/792200975|Now fixed]]. —&thinsp;[[User:JJMC89|JJMC89]]&thinsp;<small>([[User talk:JJMC89|T]]'''·'''[[Special:Contributions/JJMC89|C]])</small> 03:05, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:::I guess I attracted a bit of attention here. Sorry.—[[User:Cyberpower678|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">CYBERPOWER</span>''']] <span style="font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:Cyberpower678|<span style="color:red">Message</span>]])</span> 03:09, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Thanks! [[User:L3X1|L3X1]] [[User talk:L3X1|<small>(distænt write)</small>]] [[Special:Contributions/L3X1|<small>)evidence(</small>]] 03:10, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

== Query re creating stubs as redirects ==

Quick question - is it in order to create articles as blank stubs with redirects to another article?  I've come across an editor who has created multiple such stubs that are empty apart from the redirect to an existing article and several categories that the new redirect pages have been added to.  It's not something I've ever seen done before, but it may be perfectly normal, so I thought I'd check before opening a discussion.  [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 14:02, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
: It's a common enough thing. The real question is, is it useful? Do readers gain by it?  Often {{tl|R to section}} is ''all'' that's needed or possible, as the narrow topic would struggle with WP:N alone. Often it might stand as a separate article, but it's more readable in conjunction with other sections.
: A bad way to do these though is to first decide to make such a redirect, come what may, then to settle for a poor "nearest" target, just to make it exist with whatever can be found there and then. [[Mekydro]] is one of these - an argument over a fuller draft article turned into a pre-emptive redirect. Yet the point about how the Mekydro works is that it's the one example of that group with the ''least'' dependence on a torque converter, now the redir target. The redirect is positively misleading. [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 14:14, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{Reply to|Bastun}} redirects and stubs are different things. A stub has some minimal content while a redirect does not (apart from categorization). Nothing inherently wrong with creating redirects, provided the targets are appropriate. And redirects can be categorized, with both redirect categories and article categories, although in general I think we don't want to place a multitude of very similar redirects into the same article categories. See [[WP:RCAT]] for details. [[User:Bkonrad|older]] ≠ [[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 14:15, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks, folks. To clarify, they're redirects, not stubs; the creator was using edit summaries of "Create stub as redirect", hence my wording. The redirects pages are named for historical religious figures and they redirect to an article on a now no longer existing diocese. Given [[WP:RCAT]], they do indeed seem to be in order, but it's something I've not seen before. Thanks for enlightening me. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bastun|Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!]]</sup> 14:26, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Using an incorrect edit summary doesn't make the edit itself incorrect; and any name which a reader would potentially search for would be an appropriate name for a redirect, provided it's unambiguous. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 06:51, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

==Procedural closing of an RfC==
The RfC, filed at the [[Talk:Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#RfC]] has to be closed procedurally, since it was agreed to transfer the RfC discussion to the main page of the Syrian Civil War article in light of the existing consensus at [[Talk:Syrian Civil War/Israel]]- see [[Talk:Syrian_Civil_War#RfC]]. We cannot have two parallel RfC about the exact same topic and potentially different outcome. So far, the main page for topic-wide decisions on the Syrian Civil War arena has been the Syrian Civil War article and so should remain.[[User:Greyshark09|'''''GreyShark''''']] ([[User talk:Greyshark09|''dibra'']]) 13:19, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

== UAA backlog 2 ==

12 names on UAA. Do clear please. [[User:My name is not dave|<sup style="color:#093">My name is</sup><small style="color:#4000FF">not</small><sup style="color:#093">dave</sup>]] <small>([[User talk:My name is not dave|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/My name is not dave|contribs]])</small> 13:22, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
*{{done}} What backlog? [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 13:42, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:*Thanks a lot. [[User:My name is not dave|<sup style="color:#093">My name is</sup><small style="color:#4000FF">not</small><sup style="color:#093">dave</sup>]] <small>([[User talk:My name is not dave|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/My name is not dave|contribs]])</small> 13:47, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

== Blocked due to having FSM signature ==
{{Archive top|There is nothing the English Wikipedia administrators can do about fawiki.  Referrals to possibly appropriate venues have been suggested. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 15:27, 25 July 2017 (UTC)}}
Is it a normal Admin reaction to block a user due to having an FSM (Flying Spaghetti Monster) signature ? This admin ([[User:ارژنگ]]) blocked me even from editing (even blocked from editing my user talk page) due to having FSM in my signature. But concurrently this user (Sa.Vakilian) has an old signature of [[Sayyid]] has not been blocked. --[[User:IranianNationalist|IranianNationalist]] ([[User talk:IranianNationalist|talk]]) 09:05, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:I dunno, maybe you should ask on fawiki instead of here. This noticeboard is just for enwiki. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]], [[Special:CentralAuth/Jo-Jo Eumerus|contributions]]) 09:19, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:: Tnx Jo-Jo I had a signature like this : [https://fsmpersian.wordpress.com/2014/11/28/%D9%BE%D8%B1%DA%86%D9%85-%D8%AC%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%AF-%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%84%D8%A7-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7-%D9%87%DB%8C%D9%88%D9%84%D8%A7/ fsmpersian flag] <br/>but about "ask on wikifa" I'm blocked from editing even my '''talk page''' too (Also I don't know what WikiFa admin is impartial to contact through Email), so unfortunately it is impossible. Anyway thank you for reply --[[User:IranianNationalist|IranianNationalist]] ([[User talk:IranianNationalist|talk]]) 10:00, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:::You are not blocked on the English Wikipedia, and there's nothing admins can do here to help on other Wikipedias. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 11:17, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately fawiki us under the control of Farsi speakers, which means they're allowed to run it as a pro-Islam and anti-Atheist/anti-Christian/anti-Jew propaganda site, and there's nothing we can do about it over here. [[Special:Contributions/74.70.146.1|74.70.146.1]] ([[User talk:74.70.146.1|talk]]) 13:07, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
: I have no idea about how to appeal blocks on Persian Wikipedia, but, typically, once an English Wikipedia editor had exhausted all other appeals, he or she would file a complaint with the Arbitration Committee.  According to [[:m:Arbitration Committee]], the Persian equivalent would be [[:fa:ویکی‌پدیا:هیئت نظارت]].  Try that.  If that doesn't work out, maybe ask for advice at [[User talk:Jimbo Wales]], the founder of Wikipedia. [[User:NinjaRobotPirate|NinjaRobotPirate]] ([[User talk:NinjaRobotPirate|talk]]) 13:25, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:: @NinjaRobotPirate (I didn't ping to not interrupt your work) Thank you so much for guidance and directing me to a right way. --[[User:IranianNationalist|IranianNationalist]] ([[User talk:IranianNationalist|talk]]) 14:10, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:::: {{U|IranianNationalist}} [https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%AB_%DA%A9%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%B1:IranianNationalist  looks like you were blocked due to edit warring and trolling, per the last note on your page.]  It doesn't look like you were blocked because of the flying spaghetti monster in  your signature, which isn't there on the fa.wiki.     I'm not saying for sure that's what happened, I can only tell you what was told to you on your webpage, from a sysop over there. <span style="border: 1px solid #666666;">[[User:KoshVorlon|<span style="background: #000000; color: gold;">&nbsp;К Ф Ƽ Ħ&nbsp;</span>]][[User_talk:KoshVorlon|<span style="background: #ffffff; color:#000000;">'''Speak'''</span>]]</span> 14:28, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
::::: Please take another look to my talk page and my signature has been changed from a special point recently (previously my signature was simply IranianNationalist). There are no diff links to show editwar? or war? but to clarify it I will refer to the Fa ANB ( [https://fa.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%84%D9%88%DB%8C_%D8%A7%D8%B9%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AA_%D9%85%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86&oldid=20226140#.D8.B4.DB.8C.D9.88.D9.87_.D8.AA.D9.86.D8.B4_.D8.B2.D8.A7.DB.8C_.D9.88.DB.8C.D8.B1.D8.A7.DB.8C.D8.B4_IranianNationalist here] ) : 
<div style="direction:rtl; text-align:right>
درود جناب '''سید'''. از آنجایی که پینگ شدم، نظر می‌دهم. ایشان پس از تذکر جناب ارژنگ، مبنی بر '''عدم استفاده از عباراتی چون لا اله الا هیولا'''، تعمدا در بحث خودشان و در پاسخ به جناب ارژنگ دوباره این عبارت را تکرار کردند و حتی امضایشان را نیز به این عبارت تغییر دادند. دانشنامه مطلقا جای این کارها نیست و اینجا میدان مبارزه با مسلمانان و توهین به اعتقادات آنها نیست. اگر درباره ایشان تعارض منافع نداشتم، به دلیل توهین چندباره به اعتقادات مسلمانان آن هم علی رغم تذکر مدیر ارژنگ، حساب ایشان را مسدود می‌کردم. مهرنگار (بحث) ‏۲۵ ژوئیهٔ ۲۰۱۷، ساعت ۰۸:۰۳ (UTC)

: دانشنامه جای استفاده جناب Sa.Vakilian از واژه تنش برانگیز سید هم نیست در ضمن شما هم بهتر است توهین برداشت نکنید (تعصبات خودتان را تعدیل نمایید) واژه‌های لا و اله و الا و هیولا (هیولای اسپاگتی پرنده) همه واژه‌های عربی و فارسی هستند برای خدایی که من به آن باور دارم اگر جناب سید یا مهرنگار یا هر کس دیگری به سادات و خدایی دیگر باور دارند دلیل نمی‌شود که به باورها من به هیولا خودم توهین کنند. --لااله‌الاهیولا (خوش‌آمدید) ‏۲۵ ژوئیهٔ ۲۰۱۷، ساعت ۰۸:۱۲ (UTC)
</div>
::::: I had been warned to not use any word about the monster and I added it to my signature then I had been blocked. --[[User:IranianNationalist|IranianNationalist]] ([[User talk:IranianNationalist|talk]]) 14:43, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
I would translate the text by the wikifa admin مهرنگار here : "Hi Sayid, because I'm pinged I'm commenting. This user (means IranianNationalist) after receiving the warning of Mr.Arjang (ارژنگ) about '''not using the word La Elah Ella Hayoola (There is no god but the monster)''' intentionally repeated this term and even used it in his/her signature. Absolutely the encyclopedia is not a place for this actions and here is not a battlefield for war against Muslims or insult to their beliefs. If I had no conflict of interest with this user I would block him/her due to insulting Islamic beliefs ....."
And My response : "The encyclopedia is not a place to use Sayid too so don't receive any insult ..." --[[User:IranianNationalist|IranianNationalist]] ([[User talk:IranianNationalist|talk]]) 15:00, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Improved search in deleted pages archive ==

During Wikimedia Hackathon 2016, the [[mw:Wikimedia_Discovery|Discovery]] team [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T109561 worked] on one of the items on the 2015 community wishlist, namely [[m:2015_Community_Wishlist_Survey/Search#Provide_a_means_of_searching_for_deleted_pages|enabling searching the archive of deleted pages]]. This feature is now ready for production deployment, and will be enabled on all wikis, except Wikidata. 

Right now, the feature is behind a feature flag - to use it on your wiki, please go to the <code>Special:Undelete</code> page, and add <code>&fuzzy=1</code> to the URL, like this: https://test.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AUndelete&fuzzy=1. Then search for the pages you're interested in. There should be more results than before, due to using ElasticSearch indexing (via the CirrusSearch extension).

We plan to enable this improved search by default on all wikis soon (around August 1, 2017). If you have any objections to this - please raise them with the Discovery team via [http://mailto:discovery@lists.wikimedia.org email] or on this announcement's discussion page. Like most Mediawiki configuration parameters, the functionality can be configured per wiki. 
Once the improved search becomes the default, you can still access the old mode using <code>&fuzzy=0</code> in the URL, like this: https://test.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AUndelete&fuzzy=0

Please note that since Special:Undelete is an admin-only feature, this search capability is also only accessible to wiki admins. 

Thank you! [[m:User:CKoerner (WMF)|CKoerner (WMF)]] ([[m:User talk:CKoerner (WMF)|talk]]) 18:21, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
<!-- Message sent by User:CKoerner (WMF)@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:CKoerner_(WMF)/Archive_search_announce/Distribution_list&oldid=17036800 -->

== Comment needed ==

Please comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Another_one_of_Anna.27s_jugheaded_ideas here]. [[User:Anna Frodesiak|Anna Frodesiak]] ([[User talk:Anna Frodesiak|talk]]) 00:32, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

== Is godchecker.com blacklisted? If not, how to make it happen? ==
*{{LinkSummary|godchecker.com}}
Hello folks. How do we go about getting [http://www.godchecker.com godchecker.com] blacklisted from the site and all links to the site removed? It's clearly as bad as it gets (cf. [http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=SNOTRA this] vs. [[Snotra|our own entry]], just to start). These links are [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=godchecker&title=Special:Search&go=Go&searchToken=san0jb1x06pf3gtmfswb40ja doing nothing but feeding the site dollar bills while eroding our myth coverage wherever they appear]. [[User:Bloodofox|&#58;bloodofox:]] ([[User talk:Bloodofox|talk]]) 04:59, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:Site comes back as 'Server doesn't exist" or "cannot load page" for me on Firefox and Explorer, respectively.  Perhaps my anti-virus software is blocking it...., but yea, on that alone I'd say a blacklisting should be considered. [[User:John from Idegon|John from Idegon]] ([[User talk:John from Idegon|talk]]) 05:27, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
* Wow. Yes. 
: Start at [[WP:SPAM]] and work down into The Pit itself at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam]] [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 12:00, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
::Thank you, I've started a thread there. [[User:Bloodofox|&#58;bloodofox:]] ([[User talk:Bloodofox|talk]]) 00:33, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

== Persistent personnel attacks by user The CentreCZ ==

[[Special:Contributions/ThecentreCZ|The CentreCZ]] - I am trying to be conciliatory towards him, as far as I can. Yet he still attacks me violently, with emphasis for [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ThecentreCZ&diff=prev&oldid=792359843 his] quite [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_Fascist_Community&diff=prev&oldid=792359252 pro-fascist] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_Fascist_Community&diff=prev&oldid=792359896 fancy].-[[Special:Contributions/109.183.157.199|109.183.157.199]] ([[User talk:109.183.157.199|talk]]) 02:00, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

== IPv6 rangeblock request ==

* [[User talk:2602:304:CDA0:C1A0:447E:FB2B:4C74:A511]] was given a 31 hour for disruptive editing.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A2602%3A304%3ACDA0%3AC1A0%3A447E%3AFB2B%3A4C74%3AA511&type=revision&diff=792130692&oldid=792129671] This disruption included BLP violations, editing "conspiracy theorist" into the lead of biographies of TV news anchors they view as too liberal.
* They responded that they could easily evade the block using another computer.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:2602:304:CDA0:C1A0:447E:FB2B:4C74:A511&diff=prev&oldid=792132210]
* Not important, but out of a gross overabundance of generosity I gave them a polite explanation of the problems, I noted policies, and I asked them to edit more collaboratively.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A2602%3A304%3ACDA0%3AC1A0%3A447E%3AFB2B%3A4C74%3AA511&type=revision&diff=792140462&oldid=792135723] I knew it was a hopeless case, but sometimes I'm a sucker for idealism.
* The closely related IP <mark>2602:304:cda0:c1a0:</mark>b87c:aec2:4764:1ec8 responded on the original <mark>2602:304:CDA0:C1A0:</mark>447E:FB2B:4C74:A511 talk page, establishing the two IPs are the same user.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A2602%3A304%3ACDA0%3AC1A0%3A447E%3AFB2B%3A4C74%3AA511&type=revision&diff=792189500&oldid=792140462]
*A few hours before the block expired they used that second IP to evade the block by ranting on an article talk page.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASean_Hannity&type=revision&diff=792263201&oldid=792243419]

I then examined the 2602:304:CDA0:C1A0:* address range.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=2602%3A304%3ACDA0%3AC1A0%3A*]

I found 32 edits spanning over 9 months. I could not examine one edit made to [[White nationalism]] because it was revision deleted.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_nationalism&curid=313027&diff=prev&oldid=749969608] Every other edit is clearly from the same user. Every single edit was either immediately reverted, or removed through one or more non-revert edits. If we assume the RevDel White_nationalism edit was the same person, then they have had this address range for over 9 months and they are the only person to ever use this range.

A reverse IP lookup finds that the 2602:300::/24 range is allocated to AT&T Internet Services.[https://whois.arin.net/rest/nets;q=2602%3A306%3A31eb%3A3d20%3A8479%3A6990%3A14df%3Ac9df?showDetails=true&showARIN=false&showNonArinTopLevelNet=false&ext=netref2] The 2602:304:CDA0:C1A0::/64 range is one billionth of AT&T's address space. I'm not an expert on AT&T IPv6 address assignment, but it seems very plausible that that the entire /64 range is explicitly assigned to a single AT&T user.

I propose a significantly lengthly IPv6 rangeblock on 2602:304:CDA0:C1A0::/64

[[User:Alsee|Alsee]] ([[User talk:Alsee|talk]]) 03:44, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
:Just to let you know, it's actually normal for ISPs to assign at a minimum a /64 block. See [[Wikipedia:Blocking IP addresses#Shared and dynamic IP addresses]] and [[IPv6#Global addressing]] [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:07, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
* 2602:304:CDA0:C1A0::/64 hardblocked one week for disruption. <span style="color: #9932CC">[[:User:KrakatoaKatie|Katie]]<sup>[[User talk:KrakatoaKatie|talk]]</sup></span> 11:59, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

== AIV backlog ==

There are 14 reports. Please assist. [[User:My name is not dave|<sup style="color:#093">My name is</sup><small style="color:#4000FF">not</small><sup style="color:#093">dave</sup>]] <small>([[User talk:My name is not dave|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/My name is not dave|contribs]])</small> 19:15, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

== XTools 3.0 Beta ==

The XTools and Community Tech teams are pleased to announce the public beta of XTools 3.0!  After a year of work, we have rewritten the code for increased maintainability and stability.  We have also redesigned the interface. 

You are more than welcome to help us test it at [http://xtools.wmflabs.org xtools.wmflabs.org].  We welcome your bug reports and feature requests on Phabricator (Please tag it with "tool-labs-tools-xtools").

On behalf of the XTools team, ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 05:28, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

:Do you have a bug tracker for it?  On the user edit count page, the Time Card chart shows days from Monday through Sunday on the Y axis, but hovering over the bubbles shows that the data points are in the opposite order - ie a bubble at the Monday level according to the Y-axis is labelled Sunday and vice-versa.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 08:33, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

::{{ping|GoldenRing}} Although I'm sure Matthew will see this report, [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/maniphest/task/create/?projects=Tool-labs-tools-xtools phabricator] (project <code>Tool-labs-tools-xtools</code>) is where bug reports can go  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 10:02, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|GoldenRing}} Indeed, that's the correct place.  If you have trouble with Phabricator, feel free to drop a note on my talk page and I can file the bug on your behalf. ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 16:31, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
*Hey, it looks super sleek! ''Feeding your data hunger.'' Great work! [[User:Mz7|Mz7]] ([[User talk:Mz7|talk]]) 16:38, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:: {{ping|Mz7}} Thank you so much! ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 19:12, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
* Hey! I'm [http://xtools.wmflabs.org/adminscore/en.wikipedia.org/KrakatoaKatie admin worthy]!  <span style="color: #9932CC">[[:User:KrakatoaKatie|Katie]]<sup>[[User talk:KrakatoaKatie|talk]]</sup></span> 19:23, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
*:<small><small>Heh {{u|KrakatoaKatie}}, when someone like [http://xtools.wmflabs.org/adminscore/en.wikipedia.org/Fortuna%20Imperatrix%20Mundi me] is only 113 points behind you, I wouldn't boast to much about it :p Mind you, it's a bit like googling yourself, wikipedia-style isn't it?! :D &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 19:36, 17 July 2017 (UTC)</small></small>
*::<small><small><nowiki>*Basks in her perfectionism while wondering if this thing is really a good idea*</nowiki> <span style="color: #9932CC">[[:User:KrakatoaKatie|Katie]]<sup>[[User talk:KrakatoaKatie|talk]]</sup></span> 20:17, 17 July 2017 (UTC) </small></small>
*:913 of worthiness - well how about that? You could have been more worthy if you'd only created more deleted pages. -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 19:41, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
*:We have a slightly-cooler one that {{u|Enterprisey}} adapted from ScottyWong's tool, now at [https://tools.wmflabs.org/apersonbot/aadminscore/]. Maybe Enterprisey and Matt should get together and implement one tool instead of two? :D --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 20:26, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:::I'd like to see the algorithm behind this thing...pointless without it. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Train2104|Train2104]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Train2104|t]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Train2104|c]]) 21:32, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:::: The original code for AdminScore was in the old XTools, so I migrated it over 1:1.  Wasn't aware there was another one.
:::: {{ping|Train2104}} Indeed, I'll put it in our documentation. ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 21:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::[https://github.com/APerson241/AAdminScore Enterprisey's code]. I think the one in XTools and the one Enterprisey put together are both adapted from Scottywong but Enterprisey has poked his since. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 03:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::Yeah, I used the algorithm from Scottywong's Python code, and then added a couple more "score components". Mine is Javascript-based because I was tired of waiting a super long time for the tool to load. At the moment, the XTools version looks like it caps each component at +100. Mine just uses logarithms to make sure that going from 9 to 10 years, for example, gives you less points than going from 1 to 2 years. [[User:Enterprisey|Enterprisey]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Enterprisey|talk!]]) 05:47, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Interesting.  I'd also like to make a pass at XTools', it should not be returning consistent 100s like it currently is. ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 08:24, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::: Yeah, what is this? I get a score of 946. Why do I score 46.2 for blocks when Katie gets 100, when neither of us has ever been blocked? [[User:Hawkeye7|Hawkeye7]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye7|talk]]) 21:44, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::: It's not the number of blocks you've had, but rather the number you've administered.  A wee bit confusing...{{pb}} Docs are at [http://xtools.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tools/adminscore.html] if you're interested. ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 19:39, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::: Thanks. I notice it mentions AFD, AIV, and RFPP - has that not been implemented yet? &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Train2104|Train2104]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Train2104|t]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Train2104|c]]) 01:24, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::: It has, but was copied over from the old XTools.  That version was implemented wrong.  Bug report at [[phab:T171814|T171814]], fix prepared. ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 06:41, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|Matthewrbowker}} Not exactly something that I find urgent enough to file a bug report over, but it would be nice to have a time zone label on the time card so that people know whether it's in local or UTC. I'm sure it's in UTC, but from looking at my time card pattern that's not clear right off the bat. [[User:Ks0stm|<span style='color:green;'>'''Ks0stm'''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Ks0stm|T]]•[[Special:Contribs/Ks0stm|C]]•[[:en:User:Ks0stm/G|G]]•[[:en:User:Ks0stm/E|E]])</sup> 21:36, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
:: {{ping|Ks0stm}} Thanks for the report.  Go ahead and file a task anyway, as that way we can track it. ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 21:42, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
: Yuck – I miss lists of the top edited pages in each namespace in the Edit Counter {{Smiley|frown}} – I hope they restore that functionality: I found it quite useful on occasion, esp. for remembering what pages I had visited in Draftspace... --[[User:IJBall|IJBall]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/IJBall|contribs]] • [[User talk:IJBall|talk]])</small> 03:51, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:: {{ping|IJBall}} Noted, thank you for the feedback.  [[phab:T171150|T171150]] has been filed if you'd like to track it. ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 08:24, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{yo|IJBall}} Have you tried the dedicated [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/topedits/en.wikipedia.org/IJBall/all Top Edits] tool? You can view by specific namespace, too, e.g. [http://xtools.wmflabs.org/topedits/en.wikipedia.org/IJBall/118] <span style="font-family:sans-serif">&mdash; <span style="font-weight:bold">[[User:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:black; font-style:italic">MusikAnimal</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]]</sup></span></span> 20:36, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::: Yeah, that would be a viable workaround. Still, I'm not crazy about losing long-standing functionality from the Edit Counter, so I'd rather that the lists of the top edited pages in each namespace be restored to (the bottom of) the Edit Counter like it was before... --[[User:IJBall|IJBall]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/IJBall|contribs]] • [[User talk:IJBall|talk]])</small> 20:46, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::Indeed it would be nice to keep the Edit Counter as a one-stop shop. However we're facing performance issues that we didn't have in the older version. In layman's terms, the old edit counter was faster but worked in a way that caused many problems, including frequent downtime. The new one is much more robust and less likely to fail, but at the cost of having to cut some corners :( One solution is to load the top edits [[Asynchrony (computer programming)|asynchronously]], which means you'll still get the data but it won't show up immediately. This should be fine considering the top edits are shown at the bottom, as you say. If someone wanted to see just those stats, they could use the dedicated Top Edits tool. I'll look into this <span style="font-family:sans-serif">&mdash; <span style="font-weight:bold">[[User:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:black; font-style:italic">MusikAnimal</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]]</sup></span></span> 21:27, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
There are no monthly or yearly totals. {{smiley|sad}} And why doesn't it list any admin actions for me? [[User:Hawkeye7|Hawkeye7]] ([[User talk:Hawkeye7|talk]]) 21:44, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
: {{ping|Hawkeye7}} That should not be happening. Could you please file a bug report on Phabricator, including the URLs you were attempting to load?  If Phabricator is a bit out of your depth, go ahead and give me all the information on my talk page and I'll transfer it.  Thanks. ~ [[User:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#111eb8;">Matthewrbowker</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Matthewrbowker |<span style="color:#900C3F;">Say something</span>]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Matthewrbowker | <span style="color:#08470d;">What I've done</span>]]</sup> 07:58, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== not sure where this goes... ==

Someone please expunge the vulgar edit summaries of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2A02:587:4109:9000:34D1:2E28:A56D:9322 --[[User:Kintetsubuffalo|Kintetsubuffalo]] ([[User talk:Kintetsubuffalo|talk]]) 00:37, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{done}}.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 00:49, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

==Moving a page in line with RfC==
I request to move the currently move-protected [[List of the UN resolutions concerning Israel and Palestine]] --> [[List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel]] in line with the outcome of [[Talk:List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel#Split|split discussion]] (with parallel creation of [[List of United Nations resolutions concerning Palestine]]).[[User:Greyshark09|'''''GreyShark''''']] ([[User talk:Greyshark09|''dibra'']]) 14:30, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
:Done.  Were you experiencing some sort of technical barrier to this?  Once a discussion is closed as successful, anyone may edit or move a page in line with that discussion if they don't have a technical barrier, and someone who's been active here since 2010 shouldn't be affected by the extended-confirmed protection. But in case you are having problems, I created [[List of United Nations resolutions concerning Palestine]] as a redirect to the Israel title; please replace the redirect with the split-out content.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 12:36, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
::I couldn't move  [[List of the UN resolutions concerning Israel and Palestine]] --> [[List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel]] due to some technical reason. Wikipedia denied the move saying that I do not have sufficient permit level for this. Weird indeed.[[User:Greyshark09|'''''GreyShark''''']] ([[User talk:Greyshark09|''dibra'']]) 17:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

== Oddities at CSD ==

The following project pages appear as nominated at [[CAT:SPEEDY]], which they shouldn't, and I don't see any evidence they were tagged. 

*[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Connecticut|WikiProject Connecticut]]
*[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Connecticut/Article alerts|WikiProject Connecticut/Article alerts]]
*[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Connecticut/Latest article changes|WikiProject Connecticut/Latest article changes]]
*[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Long Island/Article alerts|WikiProject Long Island/Article alerts]]

Nothing in the page histories or page logs tells me why these are on CSD. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 17:50, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
:I think it's due to a previous CSD tag on [[Cross Sound Ferry]] that was removed and the cache hasn't updated yet. All of the pages you listed have this under the heading for Cross Sound Ferry. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 17:59, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

::That was quick.  Hopefuly, nobody will delete these before the cache updates. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 18:01, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
:::: {{edit conflict}} An editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cross_Sound_Ferry&diff=793013728&oldid=793013196 accidentally transcluded] {{tl|db-inc}} on [[Cross Sound Ferry]], so projects connected with the page have been affected. Should be able to fix it shortly. [[User:Alex Shih|Alex Shih]][[User_talk:Alex Shih|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:04, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

== Possible WP:G4 ==

An article titled deleted [[:Eric Daimler]] was deleted per [[:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eric Daimler]] by {{u|Kurykh}}. A article with the same name has been (re)created, but I'm not sure if it's the same article or a different article with the same name. Should this be tagged for speedy deletion per [[:WP:G4]]? I'm posting here because the deleting admin has not been active for a couple of months and may be on a Wikibreak or otherwise not editing. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 21:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
:Same person but article is different to the point I wouldn't G4 it. Other criteria may still apply though. [[User:Amortias|Amortias]] ([[User talk:Amortias|T]])([[Special:Contributions/Amortias|C]]) 22:17, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
::Thank you for taking a look {{u|Amortias}}. Just for reference, the file was tagged for speedy by another editor. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 00:09, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

== Administrators' newsletter – August 2017 ==

[[Wikipedia:Administrators' newsletter|News and updates for administrators]] from the past month (July 2017).
[[File:ANEWSicon.png|right|150px]]
[[File:Admin mop.PNG|20px|alt=]] '''Administrator changes'''
:[[File:Gnome-colors-list-add.svg|20px|alt=added]] [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Anarchyte 2|Anarchyte]] • [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/GeneralizationsAreBad 2|GeneralizationsAreBad]] • [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Cullen328|Cullen328]] <sup>([[Special:Permalink/792778978#Requests for adminship|first RfA]] to reach [[WP:300]])</sup>
:[[File:Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg|20px|alt=removed]] [[Special:PermanentLink/788441838#July 2017|Cprompt]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/788441838#July 2017|Rockpocket]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/788441838#July 2017|Rambo's Revenge]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/788441838#July 2017|Animum]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/788441838#July 2017|TexasAndroid]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/788441838#July 2017|Chuck SMITH]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/789101963#MikeLynch|MikeLynch]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/790856313#Voluntary deadmin request (Crazytales)|Crazytales]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/792939005#Requsting de-Sysop|Ad Orientem]]

[[File:Green check.svg|20px|alt=]] '''Guideline and policy news'''
:* Following a series of discussions around [[Wikipedia:New pages patrol|new pages patrol]], the WMF is helping implement a controlled [[Wikipedia:Autoconfirmed article creation trial|autoconfirmed article creation trial]] as a research experiment, similar to the one [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Proposal to require autoconfirmed status in order to create articles|proposed in 2011]]. You can learn more about the research plan at [[meta:Research:Autoconfirmed article creation trial]]. The exact start date of the experiment has yet to be determined.
:* A [[Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#New criteria|new speedy deletion criterion]], regarding articles created as a result undisclosed paid editing, is currently being discussed ([[Special:Permalink/793266037#New criteria|permalink]]).
:* An [[Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Expand G13 to cover ALL old drafts|RfC]] ([[Special:Permalink/793266037#Expand G13 to cover ALL old drafts|permalink]]) is currently open that proposes expanding [[WP:G13]] to include all drafts, even if they weren't submitted through [[WP:Articles for creation|Articles for Creation]].

[[File:Octicons-tools.svg|20px|alt=]] '''Technical news'''
:* [[mw:Extension:LoginNotify|LoginNotify]] should [[phab:T170358|soon be deployed]] to the English Wikipedia. This will notify users when there are suspicious login attempts on their account.
:* The new version of [https://xtools.wmflabs.org XTools] is nearing an official release. This suite of tools includes [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/adminstats/en.wikipedia.org administrator statistics], an improved [https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec edit counter], among other tools that may benefit administrators. You can report issues on [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/maniphest/task/edit/form/1/?projects=XTools Phabricator] and provide general feedback at [[mw:Talk:XTools]].

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== ClueBot III is malfunctioning ==

Heads up that ClueBot III is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=ClueBot+III&namespace=2 still malfunctioning] since [[User_talk:ClueBot_Commons#Cluebot_III_on_a_hungry_indices_rampage|my report]] two days ago. [[User:TheDragonFire|TheDragonFire]] ([[User talk:TheDragonFire|talk]]) 11:47, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
:Actually it looks like it has been malfunctioning this way [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:ClueBot_III/Master_Detailed_Indices/User_talk:Specto73&action=history for a while now], making similarly bizarre edits to other indexes. Another example I found was ClueBot [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:ClueBot_III/Master_Detailed_Indices/User_talk:Presidentman&action=history constantly replacing] Presidentman's index with the ClueBot Commons', and has been alternating between the two for around 7 years now. --[[User:Caliburn|George]] <small>AKA Caliburn</small> &middot; <small>([[User_talk:Caliburn|Talk]] &middot; [[Special:Contributions/Caliburn|Contribs]] &middot; [[Special:CentralAuth/Caliburn|CentralAuth]] &middot; [[Special:Log/Caliburn|Log]])</small> 13:41, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
::This is still happening, and I've additionally found another bug where placing whitespace before the format parameter causes that whitespace to be included in the page title (i.e. <code><nowiki>format = Y/m</nowiki></code> causes <code><nowiki>/ 2017/07</nowiki></code> to be created and <code><nowiki>format=Y/m</nowiki></code> causes <code><nowiki>/2017/07</nowiki></code> to be created). I've emailed the maintainers, but I haven't had a response. [[User:TheDragonFire|TheDragonFire]] ([[User talk:TheDragonFire|talk]]) 12:16, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

== Rangeblock Calculator ==

I have written a new [[Wikipedia:Blocking IP addresses#Range blocks|rangeblock]] calculator: [[toollabs:ip-range-calc]].  I'd like to invite everyone to test it out.  Please let me know what you think and/or if you find any bugs.  Thanks, [[User talk:Fastily|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:Indigo;font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-size:120%;">F</span><span style="font-size:90%;">ASTILY</span></span>]] 08:04, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{ping|Fastily}} You may also be interested in [[:phab:T145912]]. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 12:53, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

== Prodecural question ==

Where do I find instructions on how to respond to an unblock request?  I see the [[:Category:Requests for unblock]], but I don't see a procedure that says how to handle these.  Are there only certain admins who are authorized to respond to unblock requests?  I see the unblock requests on the user pages through the Unblock Ticket Request System, which I'm guessing takes access to that system. But I don't understand how the others get handled.  I just see a template on the user page where they've made the request.  Where is the actual process instruction page?  Or is there one? [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 00:17, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
:: Isn't all the instructions under "Information for administrators" on the RFU page? [[User:Alex Shih|Alex Shih]][[User_talk:Alex Shih|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 00:39, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I just go to [[CAT:UNBLOCK]] and have a look to see if there are any I can resolve. In each unblock request, there is a collapsed "Administrator use only" section; uncollapse that to get template accept / decline boilerplate you can copy over the original unblock request appropriately, adding in your response. Username unblocks have a slightly different format to "regular" blocks. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 16:36, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

== Issue on Submit FotoJet Craft ==

Hi Wikipedia group,

I've used your portal to submit my draft. Unluckily I got this link: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=Template%3AAfc+preload%2Fdraft&editintro=Template%3AAfC+draft+editintro&summary=&nosummary=&minor=&title=Draft%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDraft%3AFotoJet&create=Create+new+article+draft

Would appreciate if you can manually check my draft and process it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:FotoJet

Thanks,
Emily  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:EmilyFJ|EmilyFJ]] ([[User talk:EmilyFJ#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/EmilyFJ|contribs]]) 11:31, 3 August 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:You've tried to name your draft "Draft:Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:FotoJet". You want to put just "FotoJet" in the "title" field. Try that and see what you get, and if you're still having issues, let us know. (For future reference, you can use <nowiki>{{help me}}</nowiki> on your talk page to ask for help. &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 12:30, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

::: Addressed several issues on the user talk page. [[User:Alex Shih|Alex Shih]][[User_talk:Alex Shih|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 12:39, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

== CAT:CSD ==
{{atop|Asked and answered. [[User:Amortias|Amortias]] ([[User talk:Amortias|T]])([[Special:Contributions/Amortias|C]]) 18:00, 3 August 2017 (UTC)}}
Anyone know why [[Suzan Kahramaner]] is in [[CAT:CSD]]?  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 14:36, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
:[[Template:PhDTree]] had a CSD tag, and that template is transcluded on to Suzan Kahramaner; the caches haven't been refreshed yet, so the CSD tag still persists through the transclusion, even though it has since been removed from the template. I've purged the caches, so it should be out of the category now. [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ&nbsp;Keeper]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Writ Keeper|&#9863;]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|&#9812;]] 14:40, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 14:44, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
== Administrator block of [[Vagina]] ==
{{atop|Article protection has been shortened; will expire in a little over 24 hours from now.<br /><small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small><br>[[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 18:20, 4 August 2017 (UTC)}}
I've never run into a page that can't be edited - even the main page. There is a discussion and an edit war regarding this article and it doesn't involve me. Block those who are involved. A page should not be blocked because a couple of editors have a disagreement. I have content to contribute on the topic. This is an encyclopedia anyone can edit-not anymore.
:Best Regards, [[User:Barbara (WVS)|Barbara (WVS)]]&nbsp; [[User talk:Barbara (WVS)|<span style="color:darkred;">✐</span>]]&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/Barbara (WVS)|<span style="color:darkred;">✉</span>]] 12:07, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|Barbara (WVS)}} Full protections is a fairly standard response to edit warring.  If you want to make edits, you can either propose them at the article talk page or request a reduction in the protection level at [[WP:UNPROTECT]].  I'm not sure this one is likely to be reduced, though.  It's set to expire on 9 August.  <small>By the way, try editing the main page - it is also the subject of full protection.</small>  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 12:13, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

:{{ec}} Hi {{U|Barbara (WVS)}}, if you click "view source", you may then click the blue bar that says "Submit an edit request", and an administrator will review your request and make the edit if appropriate. The article is locked for one week because of an edit-war; the locking gives the community time to come to a consensus. Remember that editing Wikipedia is a privilege, not a right, and that that privilege may be revoked if administrators determine that is best for any reason. [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 12:17, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
::I understand the process and appreciate your kind reply. What you have written makes sense. What I am proposing is that the decision of the blocking administrator be reversed. I understand the reason for the block. I would like to consider this something similar to the block of a user. This decision needs more justification and consensus rather something like 'it is appropriate because an administrator believes it to be appropriate'. If we block every page where two or more editors are having a discussion on the talk page over content, we would shut down a lot more than this one article. My edits are notoriously appropriate. To suggest that an edit has to be approved by an administrator...well just doesn't seem right. Best Regards, [[User talk:Barbara (WVS)|<span style="color:darkred;">✐</span>]]&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/Barbara (WVS)|<span style="color:darkred;">✉</span>]] 12:49, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
::::{{re|Barbara (WVS)}} I think you're exaggerating things a little bit here. Articles "where two or more editors are having a discussion on the talk page over content" are not generally protected. It's only when the editors start engaging in an edit war, trying to force their particular POV on the article, that the page might (yes, ''might'') be protected. In this case (as Doc James explained below), there was an ongoing slow edit war that was causing disruption, so the page was protected for a short time. This is not unusual, and others have already explained how you can propose any changes you wish made. Or, if you don't feel like doing that, you will need to wait for the protection to expire. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:darkgreen;">日本穣</span>]] · <small>[[Special:Contributions/Nihonjoe|<span style="color:blue;">投稿</span>]] · [[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]] · [[WP:JA|<span style="color:maroon;">Join WP Japan</span>]]!</small> 17:01, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
:::If you want to challenge {{u|Doc James}}' protection of the article, the first step is to ask him about it on his talk page. I see you have done this, so just wait until he next logs on to reply. If you're still unhappy, you can go to [[WP:RFPP]] and request unprotection. I personally think 10 days' full protection is overkill, and I would normally not go for more than 24 hours as it shuts out completely uninvolved editors like yourself. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 13:11, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
::::There was a slowly moving edit war on the article in question so full protection is not unreasonable. Not sure what you mean by "I've never run into a page that can't be edited - even the main page." [[User:Barbara (WVS)]] as you are not able to edit the main page not sure what you mean? Also you have not edited this article in more than 5,000 edits (and have only ever made one edit to the article). Join the talk page discussion.
::::The back and forth on that page had been ongoing for 10 days already. I have shortened the full protection to a further three days.
::::This by the way is not correct "an edit has to be approved by an administrator". An edit when an article is fully protected needs to be approved by community consensus not an admin. [[User:Doc James|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Doc James|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Doc James|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Doc James|email]]) 13:41, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::In all sincerity I very much appreciate the ability and opportunity to 'voice' my objections to the block. I am satisfied with the block being reduced - thank you. About the ability to edit the main page, of course I need to admit that you must be correct and I must have assumed that since there is an edit tab above the page, that it could actually be edited. I have also read about an incident when the main page was deleted, much to the embarrassment of the editor who did this unintentionally. So I put 1 and 1 together and made 3. Just because there is a tab for editing and just because some editor accidentally deleted the main page one time, doesn't mean that can be accomplished now. I am wrong and you all are right. The content I am planning on inserting into the article is connected to pain management in childbirth which is an article created a short time ago. Did you really count the edits between one and the other? Why? It doesn't really matter except I can't imagine ever needing having to do something like that. I must think differently than others. I think your decisions were fair, kind and reasonable and appreciate the time you put into answering my concern. The Very Best of Regards, [[User talk:Barbara (WVS)|<span style="color:darkred;">✐</span>]]&nbsp;[[Special:Emailuser/Barbara (WVS)|<span style="color:darkred;">✉</span>]] 17:34, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
:::: Thank you for your contribution Barbara! [[User:Alex Shih|Alex Shih]][[User_talk:Alex Shih|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:07, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
::::[[User:Barbara (WVS)|Barbara (WVS)]], in this case, an editor was repeatedly adding [[WP:Synthesis]] to the article and I was rightly reverting and trying to work the matter out on the article talk page. The other editor had ignored the fact that I'd taken the matter to the talk page and reverted again anyway. My July 21, 2017‎ edit was not a revert of the editor. I'd only reverted twice, and was not going to revert a third time or violate [[WP:3RR]]. Blocking me would not have been the right move. Doc was clearly in the right to protect the article. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 22:25, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Correction: My [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vagina&diff=791631793&oldid=791431588 July 21, 2017‎ edit] was partly a revert, but I otherwise accepted the edit. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 22:40, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

<small>Before you do any blocking or protecting, be sure you have an OB/GYN on speed dial.  --<span style="font-variant:small-caps; text-shadow:blue 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em">--<span style="color:blue;">Dr.</span><span style="color:red;">Margi</span></span> [[User talk:Drmargi#top|<big>✉</big>]] 22:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)</small>

:<small>LOL. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 22:40, 3 August 2017 (UTC) </small>
{{abot}}

==G13 Update==
{{hat|Closure contested, discussion ongoing [[User:Mdann52|Mdann52]] ([[User talk:Mdann52|talk]]) 19:02, 4 August 2017 (UTC)}}

Heads up for CSD patrolling Admins that [[WP:G13]] has been updated in two important ways based on recently closed RFCs.  CSD13 now applies to all Draft namespace (no AFC template required) and AWB edits join bot edits as ignored for resetting the 6 month clock. Thanks [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 17:21, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
:The former statement is Legacypac's interpretation of the RFC at [[WT:CSD#Expand G13 to cover ALL old drafts]]; Legacypac is an involved editor at that discussion, which has not closed (and probably will not close for another two weeks). --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 18:43, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
::discussions are ongoing about the close that was reverted by another involved editor. At close it was 42 in favor and 12 opposed and while nose count is not the only factor, consensus is very clear. If someone wants to overturn a close there are appropriate ways to do that have not be followed. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 18:54, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
{{hab}}

== <s>Need one more editor to volunteer joint closure on referrer info RfC discussion</s> ==

<span id="Need more editors to volunteer joint closure on referrer info RfC discussion"></span>
<s>We had [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|Winged Blades of Godric]] and [[User:Cyberpower678|Cyberpower678]] declaring themselves last month as volunteers to do the joint closure on [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/RfC: Wikimedia referrer policy]]. However, the RfC discussion was relisted for an extended time. Its proposer [[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]], who can explain more than I, has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Guy_Macon&oldid=791012183#Third_closer_necessary_for_referrer_info_RfC.3F concerns about WMF staff] trying to influence the WMF into reconsidering the abidance to the consensus. Therefore, I believe that more volunteers, including uninvolved but experienced administrators, are needed to do the joint closures, especially to "{{tq|address the question of whether Wikipedia or the WMF has the final authority on what referrer information we send}}," quote from Guy Macon. Any more volunteers, like a third and/or fourth closer? Thanks. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 19:01, 17 July 2017 (UTC); <small>see newer comments below. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 19:18, 18 July 2017 (UTC)</small></s>
: I find this in bad faith.  Everybody and their brother knows that a strong majority of editors here support having no referrer information; canvassing to have "four closer" admins is a blatant attempt to over-emphasize the view of the English Wikipedia editors on a topic that they may not have a binding opinion on. To use excessively-legal terminology, consensus here can't over-turn jurisdictional issues. [[User:Power~enwiki|Power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|talk]]) 08:00, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
*George, this is process for process sake. You could have 1 closer or 100, it will make no difference to the outcome. The consensus is clear and could be written up in 5 minutes by anyone with even a basic grasp of Wikipedia policy. That the result is not actually binding on the WMF is completely irrelevant to determining the outcome. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 08:36, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
I know that the majority supports one of the options. The joint closure was [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive290#Closers needed for a very sensitive RfC.|requester previously one month ago]] by Guy Macon himself. I'll talk further at one of talk pages. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 16:07, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/RfC:_Wikimedia_referrer_policy&curid=54401393&diff=791188479&oldid=791157078 commented] at the RfC discussion. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 18:12, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

<s>After [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Power~enwiki&oldid=791192510#Canvassing.3F discussion with power~enwiki], I have struck out the comment that would imply "canvassing", so here's the more neutral request: "Though I welcome a fourth closer, if three total closers should suffice, then I can ask for one more closer, i.e. the third closer. That's it." I also modified the header to avoid what's considered canvassing. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 19:18, 18 July 2017 (UTC)</s>

"Canvassing" accusation against Guy Macon [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Guy_Macon&oldid=791230251#Third_closer_necessary_for_referrer_info_RfC.3F is withdrawn and then disregarded]. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 23:21, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

For an update, the discussion is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/RfC:_Wikimedia_referrer_policy&diff=793927107&oldid=793658445 summarized] by one closer. I must say that I agree with the outcome. Also, I struck out the request. --[[User:George Ho|George Ho]] ([[User talk:George Ho|talk]]) 20:00, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

== Unban proposal for 'CarryMinati' from blacklist ==
{{atop|Wrong venue. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 17:19, 5 August 2017 (UTC)}}
CarryMinati has been identified by YouTube as the 2nd top independent Indian creator in 2016. (http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/youtube-rewind-2016-google-lists-top-india-and-global-trending-videos-1635664)

He has 1.5 million subscribers which is a notable amount.  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:X4rid|X4rid]] ([[User talk:X4rid#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/X4rid|contribs]]) 17:12, 5 August 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Wrong venue. Please go to [[WP:RFRPL]] to request a reduction in page protection. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 17:19, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

==ANI reform RfC==
Hello. You are invited to comment on [[Wikipedia:2017 ANI reform RfC|this ANI reform RfC]]. Please do not comment in this thread; post all comments on the RfC pages. Thanks, [[User_talk:Biblioworm#top|Biblio]] ([[User_talk:Biblioworm#top|talk]])  19:30, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

== Giovanni Sacheli ==

Can I have a second opinion on [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Giovanni Sacheli]] and [[Giovanni Sacheli]]? I just closed the AfD as "delete" given that no good indication of notability was given, and {{ping|Sentorino}} claimed that {{tq|I paid a wikipedia editor a lot of money to create the page, because he proposed the deal to me, telling me also that the page will remain alive}}. This looks like a scam for money to me, or something along similar lines, considering that one cannot really guarantee that an article will stay. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]], [[Special:CentralAuth/Jo-Jo Eumerus|contributions]]) 19:24, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:You made a good close (the !voters are certainly not SPAs), and ''[[caveat emptor]]'' and all that. It ''might'' be worth contacting the creator to see if we can track down the exact details of this paid editing, but as far as the AFD itself goes I don't see anything more to do. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 19:35, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

== Edit war at [[WP:AN3]] ==

{{atop|Doorzki blocked; hopefully discussion can proceed civilly on AN3. [[User:Power~enwiki|Power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|talk]]) 05:59, 6 August 2017 (UTC)}}
On [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring]] there appears to be an edit war between [[User:Doorzki]] and [[User:Morty C-137]], in addition to drama between those two editors on multiple other pages.  Can an admin please put an end to this? [[User:Power~enwiki|Power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|talk]]) 05:33, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
:Oh good heavens. There's nothing to "put an end" to; there's a person who's repeatedly deleting the comments of others and deleting evidence from a complaint. [[User:Morty C-137|Morty C-137]] ([[User talk:Morty C-137|talk]]) 05:34, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
:: I'd like to point out: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&type=revision&diff=794153764&oldid=794152920 this] is the behavior that's been going on nonstop there. Doorzi has been routinely deleting other users' comments, as well as deleting the actual evidence Diffs showing that they have far-beyond-violated 3RR on multiple pages. [[User:Morty C-137|Morty C-137]] ([[User talk:Morty C-137|talk]]) 05:47, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Doorzki has been blocked by {{u| Future Perfect at Sunrise}}. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:darkgreen;">日本穣</span>]] · <small>[[Special:Contributions/Nihonjoe|<span style="color:blue;">投稿</span>]] · [[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]] · [[WP:JA|<span style="color:maroon;">Join WP Japan</span>]]!</small> 05:48, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== [[WP:AIV]] ==
{{atop|Handled. [[User:Home Lander|Home Lander]] ([[User talk:Home Lander|talk]]) 01:21, 7 August 2017 (UTC)}}
Could a sysop with a spare moment swing by AIV and handle some requests. In particular one IP has now wasted an entire page of the edit history at [[Canada's Wonderland]]. [[User:Home Lander|Home Lander]] ([[User talk:Home Lander|talk]]) 01:09, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:Thanks to everyone who responded. [[User:Home Lander|Home Lander]] ([[User talk:Home Lander|talk]]) 01:21, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abottom}}

==CBAN Clarification request==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #EDEAFF; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">{{Quote box
  | title = 
  | title_bg = #C3C3C3
  | title_fnt = #000
  | quote = CBAN [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#(Attention needed) Request to allow Rubin to continue to contribute until Arbcom case is concluded|overturned]] by community consensus. Nothing more to do here. <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> [[User:SkyWarrior|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:forestgreen">'''''Sky'''''</span>]][[User talk:SkyWarrior|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:forestgreen">'''''Warrior'''''</span>]] 18:40, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
  | width = 30%|halign=left}}
:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top-->
----
''See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#.5BConsensus_to_enact.2C_as_amended.5D_Proposed_editing_restriction WP:ANI#Consensus to enact, as amended Proposed editing restriction] and [[user talk:Arthur Rubin]]''.
I proposed a CBAN for Arthur Rubin which gained consensus and was enacted. The enacting administrator, {{u|GoldenRing}} seems to have misinterpreted the intent of the duration of the CBAN.

I wrote the proposal with the intent that the CBAN was to be of a limited duration. It would expire either at ARBCOM's rejection or conclusion of a case against Arthur Rubin. GoldenRing seems to think that the CBAN is just an indefinite one, and there is not consensus for a set of circumstances that will mean the CBAN expires. He has suggested that the matter is brought up here for clarification. Other editors have said at ANI that they interpreted the ban to be that which I intended. I wrote the proposal how I did so that we would not need to return to the drama-fest that is ANI to get the CBAN lifted. Either ARBCOM rejects the case and the CBAN ends (looking unlikely) or ARBCOM accepts the case, it is concluded and Arthur Rubin is then free to edit, subject to whatever sanctions (if any) are imposed by ARBCOM.

So, do we all agree that the CBAN has a defined set of conditions under which it expires? [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 19:42, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

:Arthur Rubin has been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AArthur_Rubin&type=revision&diff=794093248&oldid=794007207 notified], GoldenRing has been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AGoldenRing&type=revision&diff=794093337&oldid=794034134 notified]. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 19:54, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
*{{u|Mjroots}}, I notice you didn't actually ask GR whether they would be willing to amend their close. While there is no end date specifically listed (and I can see how that could be interpreted as "indefinitely"), that's an easy two-minute job to update, given the perfectly valid concerns you raise here. If GR is willing to make that change, I'd say this is not an AN matter. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 20:02, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:::{{reply to|Primefac}} I asked GoldenRing twice [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=793850778 here], which he [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=next&oldid=793851096 declined] and again [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=794039245 here] which so far he's ignored. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 22:11, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
**{{reply to|Primefac}} - GR has already stated at ANI and on his talk page that he's unwilling to amend his stance (from his talk page ''If you don't like how I closed the discussion, take it to AN for review''). It seems that it is not worth pressing the issue with him, although he did state at ANI ''I won't vociferously oppose changing it if the community disagrees''. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 20:07, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
**:My interpretation of that [[User_talk:GoldenRing#Rubin_again|that thread]] was that the "posting at ANI" part was under discussion, not the timeframe, but whatever. We're here now, we'll see what GR has to say about it. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 20:12, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
*I think the close is best as is.  I think defining a set of circumstances under which the ban will end automatically in a way that can't be gamed or wikilawyered adds too much complexity and I don't see the problem with Arthur Rubin coming back to the community to have the ban lifted.  Supposing that ARB were to reject the case, I think having the ban end automatically at that point would, in fact, cause considerably ''more'' drama than any request to have the ban lifted would &mdash; in any event, no less than a request to have the ban lifted, especially if that request came after a bit of time.  I thought this seemed sensible and I thought, mostly from the way it was formatted, that it was what Mjroots was suggesting.  Obviously I misread their intentions.  I will not kick up a fuss if the community decides to to override my close on this point.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 20:20, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{ping| GoldenRing }} Your opinion of what ''should'' have been proposed an agreed upon is irrelevant, what ''was'' proposed and agreed upon is that the restriction would automatically end under the stated conditions. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 22:18, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:::This is the most salient point here. GoldenRing, I don't mean for this to sound insulting or inflammatory, but I just don't know any other way to say it and emphasize the central point here: how can you have risen to the position of admin and clerk to ArbCom utilizing such a mistaken understanding of what the [[WP:CLOSE|role of a closer]] is in a [[WP:CONSENSUS]] discussion on this project?  Your job in that circumstance is to summarize the approach endorsed by the community, not construct a new one, no matter how much more well-advised you believe (or even know!) your approach will be.  Mjroots' proposal was very explicit as to the terms of the ban, terms which were endorsed by all of the community members who !voted in that discussion, but which you stripped out of the final sanction with your close, under your own onus.  That's just not how the process of consensus works on this project.  

:::Nor is there any significant amount of ambiguity here: Mjroots original proposal was perfectly clear about the length of the ban being !voted for.  As if that weren't enough, all five of the editors commenting here have been clear that they !voted believing they were discussing/endorsing a proposal to ban Arthur until the conclusion of ArbCom case, and were '''''<u>not</u>''''' supporting an indefinite community ban under those circumstances.  Not one contributor has stepped forward to say that they understood the proposal to to be consistent with the sanction you declared in your close.  I'm sorry, but neither you, nor any user of this community (not an admin, not even an Arb) is empowered under our guidelines to unilaterally upgrade a sanction to an indefinite community ban without absolutely clear community consensus for that action.  That is well beyond your authority to do.  This is, in my opinion, a more or less [[WP:SNOW]] issue, and though I believe your mistake to have been a good faith one, I implore you to listen to the concerns of the other editors here--the very same editors whose opinions you claim to be representing with that close.  The close has to be amended to be consistent with the proposal !voted on. [[User:Snow Rise|'''''<span style="color:#19a0fd;">S</span><span style="color:#66c0fd;">n</span><span style="color:#99d5fe;">o</span><span style="color:#b2dffe;">w</span>''''']] [[User talk:Snow Rise|<sup><b style="color:#d4143a;">''let's rap''</b></sup>]] 00:50, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Snow Rise}} all that experience that Golden Ring does not have would have came in handy for situations like this. To answer your question, enough !voters at his RfA thought adminship is no big deal and experience is not a necessity; here is the end result. I had my doubts about GR but I am hopeful he will learn from this mistake and take the time to brush up on [[WP:CLOSE]].[[User:TheGracefulSlick|TheGracefulSlick]] ([[User talk:TheGracefulSlick|talk]]) 01:31, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Well, let's not get too much into the weeds of opinions on a separate matter.  GR has shown some signs of softening his stance here in his last post above, due to community response.  Perhaps the additional opinions which have been lodged since will be sufficient to change his perspective on the best solution here.  [[User:Snow Rise|'''''<span style="color:#19a0fd;">S</span><span style="color:#66c0fd;">n</span><span style="color:#99d5fe;">o</span><span style="color:#b2dffe;">w</span>''''']] [[User talk:Snow Rise|<sup><b style="color:#d4143a;">''let's rap''</b></sup>]] 01:35, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=793617071 the comment by Sladen] has it spot on. [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 20:40, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I've requested the CBAN to be removed at ANI.  It's the only logical and reasonable thing to do, especially now we're in Arbcom territory (oooooh!). [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 20:43, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

*My support was for the specific (and explicit) purpose of compelling Arthur Rubin to participate in the Arbcom case, and in supporting I was explicitly supporting the proposal as written, which included {{tq|The restriction to be lifted after he has provided diffs and the ARBCOM case is either rejected or concluded}}, and not the closing admin choosing to cherry-pick those parts of the proposal he liked rather than the whole thing. Had that section not been included, I'd have vehemently opposed the proposal altogether. There are (rare) occasions where "indefinite as in until you come grovelling" is appropriate, when it's felt necessary that the editor explicitly explain that they understand a particular issue that needs to be addressed before they'll be trusted again, but this was certainly not one of those occasions. Given that Arthur Rubin is now participating in the Arbcom case, I don't consider keeping this topic ban in place in any form is serving any useful purpose, and would strongly suggest that it be lifted altogether—Arbcom are perfectly capable of throwing him under the bus if they feel it's justified ''after'' they've had the chance to consider his take on what happened here. I assume even Arthur Rubin's harshest opponents will concede that he's vanishingly unlikely to cause any disruption while the case is ongoing and that if he does so he's signing his own resignation from Wikipedia.&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 20:57, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
*:Already done that, both here and at ANI. Fair's fair.  [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 20:58, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
*FWIW I supported and read it as "He's restricted from editing anything other than Arbcom and if the Arbcom is accepted then he remains restricted and if it's declined then he can freely edit again" - If it was an indefinite thing then I would've opposed ..... I don't really see the logic in him remaining restricted if the Arbcom case was declined as that wouldn't really make any sense, Thanks, –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 21:11, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

*'''Yes of course''' (''sigh'') the proposal that was presented, discussed, and agreed to was that restriction ends with the rejection or conclusion of the ARBCOM case. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 21:46, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

:{{U|Paul August}} the only people now holding up Rubin's ability to contribute further to all these mathematical articles you state he's so fundamental to is to accept the case formally are Arbcom.  What I do note is that prior to Rubin's CBAN he's done little more than revert additions to recent year articles, so I'm not sure how much we're missing his massive input otherwise.  But in any and all cases, he should be enabled to edit since we're now at the point of no return regarding the Arbcom case. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 22:25, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{U|The Rambling Man}}, please don't misrepresent what I said, which was that [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=793876088&oldid=793841122 "he is an expert editor who has made many productive contribution to our mathematics content"]. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 13:35, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Sotty, I thought you were somehow implying that Rubin's restriction was somehow preventing him from making some serious contributions. Of course, excellent article writing is no excuse for ignoring AGF and ADMINACCT. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 14:36, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
*The close should be '''overturned''' for misreading consensus - the closing admin can't make a c-ban broader than supported as they purport to have done here, especially an indef. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 01:07, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Overturn''' to be temporary, but under protest that this exists at all. The issue at stake is admin status, so the appropriate ban that the community ''should'' have enacted was a ban on use of admin tools pending the case. Issues related to policies applying only to admins (ADMINACCT, etc.) should not affect whether someone can edit (except in cases where they suggest further disruption is likely even without tools - blatant vandalism with tools, etc). This is like banning someone from editing because they misused rollback. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 08:18, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

{{ping|GoldenRing}} Since you agree above that you "misread" things, the appropriate thing for you to do would be to amend your close. There is no need to wait for the community to override your close. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 09:53, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|Paul August}} Yes.  Having slept on this (again), you are right.  I clearly mis-read consensus and I will amend my close accordingly.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 10:13, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{ping|GoldenRing}} Thank you. [[User:Paul August|Paul August]] [[User_talk:Paul August|&#9742;]] 10:48, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Just as a little note, there is very clear consensus to just outright [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#(Attention needed) Request to allow Rubin to continue to contribute until Arbcom case is concluded|overturn the editing restriction]]. <small>I'd close it myself, but I'm not an admin, so it would be helpful if one can do so, preferably sooner than later.</small> [[User:SkyWarrior|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:forestgreen">'''''Sky'''''</span>]][[User talk:SkyWarrior|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:forestgreen">'''''Warrior'''''</span>]] 23:35, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

===Request===
Could an uninvolved admin please close and implement TRM's proposal to lift the community ban placed on Arthur Rubin? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#.28Attention_needed.29_Request_to_allow_Rubin_to_continue_to_contribute_until_Arbcom_case_is_concluded]  At this time it has 18 supports and no opposes and seems to be a prime candidate for a SNOW close.  Thanks. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 12:27, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:That's pretty good consensus to me and it appears to be [[WP:SNOW|snowing in August]]. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 12:31, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::Thank you. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 13:32, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
----
: ''The discussion above is closed.  <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b>  No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] --></div><div style="clear:both;"></div>

{{Clear}}
== Malformed [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nick Monteleone]] ==

Could someone fix up [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nick Monteleone]].--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]] / [[WP:FOUR]] / [[WP:CHICAGO]] / [[WP:WAWARD]])</small> 11:50, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

:{{done}} [[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 12:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks.--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]] / [[WP:FOUR]] / [[WP:CHICAGO]] / [[WP:WAWARD]])</small> 13:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Possible compromised account? ==

I just blocked {{u|Pragon977}} for section blanking and page blanking.  This account may be compromised.  This account has existed for 2 years with very little editing.  The August 10 edits are so different, it gives cause for concern that this account may be comprimised.  How is this handled? [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment added 02:01, 10 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
:{{re|Maile66}} Normally with an indef {{tl|uw-compblock}}  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 18:07, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks.  Done. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 18:13, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== OTRS member, supposed confidential information and ad hominem attacks ==

{{moved|WP:ANI#OTRS member, confidential info and character assassination}} <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Od Mishehu|Od Mishehu]] ([[User talk:Od Mishehu#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Od Mishehu|contribs]]) 04:44, 10 August 2017 (UTC)</small>

{{Clear}}
== Backlog of four requests left at [[WP:RfPP]] and pending oversight request ==

I've filled I think close to 20 page protection requests over the last few hours, but the plate hasn't quite been cleared yet, and I'm out of time. In the rolling archive, you'll also find a request for oversight - I believe oversighters have received an email about it. Regards, [[User:Samsara|Samsara]] 09:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Malformed AfD, not on logs ==

There is a malformed AfD at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lyra (virtual assistant)]] which does not appear at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2017 August 9]]. I have forgot how to fix these. Could someone please sort it out? [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 13:40, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

:{{done}}. Fixed and logged by Alex Shih. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 14:00, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks, [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 14:28, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
==Review of AFD closure==

I have informed about this to [[User:Sandstein|Sandstein]] before posting here. The AFD ([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cultural impact of Michael Jackson]]) concerned a fancruft article that is being made after [[WP:CFORK|forking content]] from other articles, with no content of its own. The AFD and [[User talk:Sandstein#Disagree with closure]] provides the reasons that why this article had to be deleted, as delete votes were policy based keep votes weren't. [[User:Excelse|Excelse]] ([[User talk:Excelse|talk]]) 05:09, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{replyto|Excelse}} I agree the "keep" rationales look weak, but shouldn't this be taken to [[Wikipedia:Deletion review]]? <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 05:20, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{yo|Excelse}} Chris is correct, the proper venue is [[WP:DRV]] where a discussion will take place to review the close. [[User:Swarm|<span style='color:black;text-shadow: 0.0em 0.0em 0.9em black'><big>'''S'''</big><small>'''''warm'''''</small></span>]] [[User talk:Swarm|<span style='color:black;text-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.2em red'>♠</span>]] 05:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{done}} Further discussions will be made on [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2017 August 9#Cultural impact of Michael Jackson]] and this section may serve as notification for more opinions. [[User:Excelse|Excelse]] ([[User talk:Excelse|talk]]) 06:10, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== [[Morphogenetic resonance]] - Request for eyes on AFD ==

I am requesting a set of administrator eyes on the deletion discussion at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Morphogenetic resonance]].  The author of the article, [[User:RhinoMind]], has [[WP:NPA|insulted]] the editors who have !voted to Delete.  (Consensus is running very strongly in favor of Delete or Merge to [[Rupert Sheldrake]].)  [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 23:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
* The AfD still had a few hours to run, but with one "Keep" and 14 "Delete"s there does not seem any point in prolonging it, so I have closed it. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 18:47, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

== CFDS needs extra help ==

[[WP:CFDS]] has '''lots''' of nominations from the past 56 hours, extra help until it's cleared up (no earlier than about 34 hours from now for the end of the batch) will be greatly appreciated. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 07:27, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

== AIV Backlog ==

There's a backlog at [[WP:AIV]] again. One IP has been sitting at AIV and making horrible personal attacks in edit summaries in the mean time. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 03:00, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:All done - many of the reports are now stale and not requiring immediate blocks. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 12:47, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

::Just a comment, to alert admins with any pertinent subject matter knowledge. Not all vandalism is obvious, even when reported. There seems to alternating waves of reported vandalism in the areas of sports, popular media (TV, children's shows, music) and India-related articles.  Much of the alleged vandalizing centers around changes in statistics, awards, or other details that take a special knowledge to determine if they are actually vandalism, rather than an edit war or other. Consequently, those nominations sit there longer awaiting someone with a given knowledge.  So, it would be helpful if any admins with knowledge in these areas could check AIV once in a while. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 13:12, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

== <s>User:Foreverknowledge</s> User:Porteclefs ==

<s>{{userlinks|Foreverknowledge}}</s>
{{userlinks|Porteclefs}}

Can someone please look into this user's odd behavior. They're spamming some sort of "survey" on other user's talkpages at random. This is very odd behavior, and possibly may need an indefinite [[WP:NOTHERE]] block. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2601:1C0:104:4D83:894A:B35D:514C:7140|2601:1C0:104:4D83:894A:B35D:514C:7140]] ([[User talk:2601:1C0:104:4D83:894A:B35D:514C:7140|talk]]) 18:56, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
::I don't see that they have added any surveys on any pages. Might you have this confused with another editor? [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 18:58, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|RickinBaltimore}} Whoops! This is the wrong editor. I'll find the other editor now. Thanks for letting me know. [[Special:Contributions/2601:1C0:104:4D83:894A:B35D:514C:7140|2601:1C0:104:4D83:894A:B35D:514C:7140]] ([[User talk:2601:1C0:104:4D83:894A:B35D:514C:7140|talk]]) 19:07, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
::::{{ping|RickinBaltimore}} The correct user is {{userlinks|Porteclefs}}. [[Special:Contributions/2601:1C0:104:4D83:894A:B35D:514C:7140|2601:1C0:104:4D83:894A:B35D:514C:7140]] ([[User talk:2601:1C0:104:4D83:894A:B35D:514C:7140|talk]]) 19:09, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::It looks like this has been addressed on the user's talk page, and it's not malicious activity. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 19:11, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

== Daily Mail redux ==

Most of you will remember back in February that we [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_220#Daily_Mail_RfC banned] the ''[[Daily Mail]]'', a best-selling but controversial British semi-tabloid newspaper, from Wikipedia. At the time of the close, editors were reminded that "{{xt|There are multiple thousands of existing citations to the Daily Mail. Volunteers are encouraged to review them, and remove/replace them as appropriate.}}"

We don't seem to have got very far, six months down the line. As I write this, I can see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&profile=advanced&search=dailymail.co.uk+incategory%3A%22living+people%22&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&searchToken=1s28xkitna4os7ann8lg7j8vb 1,834 BLPs sourced to the Mail] (top results - [[Melissa Odabash]], [[Gabi Grecko]], [[Janet Street-Porter]], [[Tara Reid]] and [[Judy Huxtable]]). That's about 1,834 too many in my view. I have gone through some other BLPs and reviewed content (either replacing with a better source, taking the citation out if it's irrelevant, or removing the content entirely if it seems to be tabloidesque gossip that really ought not to be in BLPs), and I realise the [[WP:SOFIXIT]] attitude is a good one to have, but it'll take me months if not years to get through that lot at my typical working pace.

I realise that the ban was for the ''Mail'' full stop, but we might as well start somewhere and just focus on the BLPs, and while a backlog of over 1,800 sounds disheartening, it's peanuts compared to the NPP backlog, for example. Who else apart from me is making a point to clean up these? 

On a related note, did we ever get a consensus to implement an edit filter that blocked the insertion of the ''Mail'' as a source? I can't see anything obvious that was implemented towards this.

Or perhaps, we should take a long hard look and decide the ban doesn't actually work, and get rid of it - going back to the previous status quo of it being a judgement call depending on the circumstances. Empirically, it doesn't work if we've still got so many BLPs still referencing it, and not enough motivation to remove them. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 14:52, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:Well it works as to its intent - which is to stop the endless 'Is the daily mail reliable?' discussions at RSN to which 90% of the time the answer is 'not for the information you want to use it for' after going through the same RS criteria over and over again, and having to point out again and again why its not. RE edit filter: no consensus because there are valid uses for it (on itself, or historical cites for example, or other special case exceptions). Really we need a [[WP:DAILYMAIL]] (not a redirect to the RFC) guideline that lays out everything in one place (with the common exceptions) then we can just link that in edit-summaries and on noticeboards when it comes up.
:Being a BLP board regular however, its an extremely reactive board. Its not functionally possible (without automated help) to police all the biographies out there, so it handles them as and when problems crop up. If someone wants to propose a bot request to remove all dailymail citations frop bios and replace them with 'citation needed' that would be an improvement, because it would at least have a better change of flagging up for any editor who has a biography watchlisted. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 15:19, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:Six months is not a long time, especially when there is no deadline. I would be more concerned if there were stats showing that usage was significantly rising. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 15:25, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::It isn't a long time, certainly not compared to how long most of us have been on this planet, granted; however I think it makes Wikipedia a laughing stock and ammunition for the ''Mail'' themselves to point at us and say "ha ha, they tried banning this, but look they're still referring to us in thousands of articles tee hee". [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 15:28, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::I think you over-estimate how many people treat the Daily Mail seriously. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 15:51, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::::I wish I could share your convictions, but looking at [http://www.newsworks.org.uk/Daily-Mail some basic stats], it still has a daily circulation of 1.4 million and their website has 153 million hits per day, plus on personal experience it is the most prominent paper in my local corner shop's news stand and easily the most frequently purchased. If this was some obscure web-only publication, I'd be less bothered. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 16:00, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Now I think you are over-estimating how many people value the opinion of those who *subscribe to the daily mail*. :) Seriously, why care? If Daily Mail readers want to believe the pap they are fed, we cant stop them, we can prevent it being used here. If Daily Mail readers want to get up in arms about not being cited on Wikipedia, well, who cares? It doesnt make Wikipedia look bad to anyone who is not a Daily Mail reader, and since our methods and practices are fundementally at odds with the way the Daily Mail works, why get worried over something that is not going to change. We are not going to change our requirements for reliable sourcing. The Daily Mail makes enough money from outright fabrications, distortions and other shenanigans that they are not going to change their working practices, and Daily Mail readers are not going to stop buying and justifying those practices because we wont cite them. So dont worry about it. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 16:08, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:Please be careful in referring to the restriction and editing guidance, as a "ban" - that's fine for those not too interested in the nuance, nor technicalities and the explicit wording of the restriction but as a matter of administration and precision it is not a flat "ban". [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:29, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::Do you want to tell [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/08/wikipedia-bans-daily-mail-as-unreliable-source-for-website The Guardian], [http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/daily-mail-banned-from-wikipedia_uk_589c3e13e4b07685621810f8 The Huff Post] and [http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/wikipedia-editors-ban-daily-mail-source-citation-unreliable-mail-online-a7570856.html The Independent] - because they certainly seem to think it ''is'' a ban. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 15:33, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::As I recall the Harvard center on journalism had the more nuanced take - although some have called it a "ban", including the ''Daily Mail'', it is source and editing guidance to Wikipedia editors. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:39, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::::[http://www.niemanlab.org/2017/02/wikipedia-calls-the-daily-mail-generally-unreliable-and-bans-it-as-a-source-in-most-cases/ Nieman center at Harvard] I believe. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 15:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Yes.  Thanks. "The concept of “ban” on Wikipedia is a strange one since anybody can edit an article. This is more like an agreement among Wikipedia’s most active editors to try to address the problem [of "general unreliability"] by not linking to Daily Mail articles and by editing sources that do link to them." 
:::::In Wikipedia, it would be more of a "ban" if it were "blacklisted," as we do for some sites we really want to ban, altogether.--[[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 16:05, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
* It'd be very good idea to get an edit filter set up for this - it would be a simple one to action, and it doesn't have to disallow, merely warn.  This, I think, is a necessity, because I am sure a lot of even good-faith editors don't actually ''know'' about this.  It could include a few other papers as well (Sun, Mirror, Star) so we're not seen to be discriminating against one tabloid. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 15:41, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::Agree.  I think I supported the "warn" back then.  [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:46, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/126 Filter 126] already does the same thing for YouTube, it'd be trivial to duplicate it. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 15:52, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::: Presumably with "warn" you'd be able to override it if you were a confirmed user? While I'd happily lump ''The Sun'' in with the Mail, I have heard a reasonably convincing counter-argument that a lot of basic sports scores and stats would be much harder to source without it. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 15:56, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::::: I'd say that pretty much any sports information you needed to be source could be done from an alternative reliable source, though.  The ''Sun'' only really covers mainstream sports and they're covered very heavily. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 16:06, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::If there is a sport result in the Sun/Daily Mail that is not on the BBC website somewhere, I will be genuinely surprised. Unless its something historical. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 16:13, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::With "warn" anyone can override it after being displayed a warning. There's no way to say that confirmed users can override the warning and others can't, without setting up two separate filters. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Train2104|Train2104]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Train2104|t]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Train2104|c]]) 20:07, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::Yes. I think you are right.  By-the by, such a "filter" for DM has already been approved by consensus at [[Wikipedia talk:Edit filter]]. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 00:15, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I have created [[Special:AbuseFilter/869]] - "Warn new users about adding tabloid journalism to BLPs". This will trap any unconfirmed user who adds a weblink to the ''Daily Mail'', ''The Sun'' or ''The Daily Star''. It's not enabled yet, because I'd like some other admins with access to the edit filter (why {{u|Cyberpower678}} springs to mind, I don't know, but it does) to test it out first. Once that's done, it can be enabled. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 19:39, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:Maybe because I inadvertently had the title blacklist block all non-admins from creating new pages in any namespace not too long ago?—[[User:Cyberpower678|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">CYBERPOWER</span>''']] <span style="font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:Cyberpower678|<span style="color:\#FF8C00">Around</span>]])</span> 19:42, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{re|Ritchie333}} Left a comment for you in the filter notes. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 19:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Rob, replied. Cyberpower - oh, I thought you were just giving everyone at NPP the day off, or something.... [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 20:06, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
: I think you've got to take the user age out - this probably applies to more experienced users even more than newbies, because they're the ones more likely to be adding citations. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 20:08, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:: Fair enough. Well that gives a couple of options - we could warn for everybody, warn for non-admins, or warn for some other group? How about warn if the user is not autopatrolled, on the assumption that if you've been around long enough to ask for that right, and people trust you to create edits responsibility without NPP checking, you're responsible enough to know what BLP is. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 20:13, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
::: No, I'd warn for everyone.  Considering there's just been a kerfuffle on [[WP:ANI]], part of which involved an ''admin'' adding Daily Mail links, I don't think you can assume that everyone is up to speed with these issues.  And then when something like that ANI thread turns up again, no-one can turn round and say "Sorry, I thought it was OK to add that link". [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 20:16, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:::: Well personally I despair that an ''admin'' isn't aware of these issues, but I guess some have the excuse that the ''Mail'' isn't well known in the country they live in. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 20:19, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Such a setup will present issues for bots and reverting vandalism, so I suggest some user qualification. Also, there is no good reason for the filter to be hidden. I'll add a check for the main namespace to reduce the load (as it scans the full text of every page for the category). I also think this should have an extended period without warning to check the false positives. We can now accept other suggestions for crap BLP sources. -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 20:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Rangeblock for [[User:Incorrigible Troll]]/[[User:Purple Back Pack needs to retire]] and related socks. ==
{{atop|Moved to SPI. <br><small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small><br>[[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 07:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)}}
* {{vandal|Incorrigible Troll}}
* {{vandal|Purple Back Pack needs to retire}}

Puppetmaster Incorrigible Troll creates an SPA vandalism-only account every few days.  For the full list, see [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Incorrigible Troll/Archive]] and [[User:Purplebackpack89/PeopleWhoVandMe]] for the complete list.  I am requesting that the IPs that Incorrigble and his socks frequent be rangeblocked for a significant amount of time. <span style="border:1px solid;background:#800080">[[User:Purplebackpack89|<span style="color:#FFCC00">p</span>]][[User talk:Purplebackpack89|<span style="color:#FFCC00;">b</span>]][[User:Purplebackpack89/C|<span style="color:#FFCC00;">p</span>]]</span> 21:21, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{U|Purplebackpack89}}, please make this request at the SPI itself. The only way the underlying IP range can be reviewed and blocked is via [[WP:CheckUser|CheckUser]] data which admins do not have access to, so this request isn't possible to fulfill here. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 21:57, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{ping|BU Rob13}} How would I format that? <span style="border:1px solid;background:#800080">[[User:Purplebackpack89|<span style="color:#FFCC00">p</span>]][[User talk:Purplebackpack89|<span style="color:#FFCC00;">b</span>]][[User:Purplebackpack89/C|<span style="color:#FFCC00;">p</span>]]</span> 21:59, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
:::<s>See the instructions in the drop-down box labelled ''"How to open an investigation"'' at [[WP:Sockpuppet Investigations]]. 22:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)</s>
::::The comment you left at the SPI is fine. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 22:04, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
== [[:Wikipedia:Shawna Della-Ricca]] ==
{{atop|Moved and fixed; now at AfD. <br><small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small><br>[[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 07:42, 14 August 2017 (UTC)}}
This article seems to have been moved by its creator {{u|Zazaqwer}} from the article namespace to the Wikipedia namespace in error. I had prodded the article for deletion with [[:Special:diff/Marchjuly/794633504|this edit]]. I am not sure if the move was an attempt to contest the prod by [[:WP:USERFY|userfying]] the article or by moving it to the draft namespace, but it does not belong in the Wikipedia namespace. The article was then subsequently deprodded by another editor after the move. Would an admin mind taking a look at this and see if there's a way to sort it out? If the intent was to move it back to the draft namespace, then that's fine with me. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 22:00, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
: I moved it back for now. It should go to AfD or be moved to User- or Draft-space. —&thinsp;[[User:JJMC89|JJMC89]]&thinsp;<small>([[User talk:JJMC89|T]]'''·'''[[Special:Contributions/JJMC89|C]])</small> 22:27, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks {{u|JJMC89}}. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 22:49, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
== Discretionary sanctions question ==
{{atop|Draft deleted at creator's request once it was no longer needed. <br><small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small><br> [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 07:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)}}
I know that there are certain articles which cannot be edited by non-administrators because the article has been protected due to the nature of its subject matter and because such articles tend to attract lots of contorversial edits. I am wondering how this apples to userspace drafts or drafts of articles whose topics would fall under the same sanctions if they were added to the article namespace. For example, [[:User:Kingsindian/Ramallah lynching draft]] appears to come from [[:2000 Ramallah lynching]], so I curious as to whether the sanctions also apply to that draft. I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong; it's just that the article is protected, but the same content can be easily edited as a draft. For reference, I came across the draft while doing some non-free image cleanup, etc. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 06:21, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
:It's fine to have a draft, although [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]] should have included a link to the original article in the edit summary when copying the material per [[WP:CWW]]. Generally a user draft would be for that user to prepare a proposal that they might later present on the article talk page. In some cases, multiple people work on such a draft with no problem. Normal policies such as [[WP:BLP]] and [[WP:COPYVIO]] apply to drafts. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 10:03, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
:: The original article was full-protected for three days after some minor edit-warring. The draft was created as part of a talk page discussion [[Talk:2000_Ramallah_lynching#Summary_and_vote|here]]. Once the draft is incorporated into the article, I'll put it up for deletion. [[User:Kingsindian|Kingsindian]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Kingsindian|&#9821;]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Kingsindian|&#9818;]] 17:42, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Need some clarification ==

I would like to ask for some general comments [[Special:Contributions/Uncle_dan_is_home|on this kind of user/user behaviour]]. This is not an isolated case, but I cannot seem to find relevant discussion. My first impression would be [[WP:NOTHERE]] and [[WP:NOTFORUM]] (209 edits; 0 edits in the article space), but the existing guideline doesn't seem to explicitly describe this kind of approach. It would be fine if the questions were relevant to editing, but it's certainly not the case here (see revision history), so I would like some admin/non-admin input on what should be done in this scenario. Regards, [[User:Alex Shih|Alex Shih]][[User_talk:Alex Shih|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 18:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

== 410 CSD currently listed ==

There are currently 410 CSD listed at [[Template:Admin dashboard|Admin dashboard]]. A random check appears that they are the result of {{ping|CatcherStorm}} running AWB, and those tags appear at the bottom of the articles, rather than the top.  Assuming these are legitimately tagged articles, and not an AWB glitch, is there a way to mass delete? [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 15:59, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
:I spoke with CatcherStorm about this on their talk page. This is apparently an error, and I requested that they revert these edits, as almost all of the ones I've seen did not meet G13 for being over 6 months without editing. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 16:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
::I am coming across more now that do meet G13, at least for time (last edit over 6 months ago). Really would like an extra set of eyes to help go through these. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 18:31, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

==Blue Indigo Sock ==
I want to report a sock action by [[User:Blue Indigo|Blue Indigo]] in the following article and his actions in driving another editor out in  Phillipe Orléans 

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Louis_Joseph,_Dauphin_of_France&diff=782960720&oldid=781197090  <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Truth seeker today|Truth seeker today]] ([[User talk:Truth seeker today#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Truth seeker today|contribs]]) 17:34, 10 August 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


Here is Blue Indigo driving another editor out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Louis_Philippe_II,_Duke_of_Orl%C3%A9ans

:The OP is probably the return of an editor who was harassing {{U|Blue Indigo}} about a year ago. '''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color:black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color:gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 17:42, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

::I'd say it's more than likely, given the very recent appearance of {{user|Marc dolphin}}, a confirmed sock of [[WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Aubmn|Aubmn]]. [[User:Favonian|Favonian]] ([[User talk:Favonian|talk]]) 18:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

:::{{Bwt}}. [[User:GeneralizationsAreBad|GAB]]<sup>[[User talk:GeneralizationsAreBad|gab]]</sup> 18:45, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

== Request for Importers access ==

Hello all, I have created a discussion to request importer access.  Your input at [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for page importation#Request for Importers access - Xaosflux]] is welcome. Thank you for your consideration, — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:43, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

== Rogue Commons Admin ==

Not sure if anyone is aware but [[User:Daphne Lantier|Daphne Lantier]] [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Matiia&page=user%3ADaphne+Lantier%40commonswiki&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1&hide_tag_log=1 went rouge over at commons] and went on a mass deletion spree. As a result [[User:CommonsDelinker|CommonsDelinker]] has been [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Matiia&page=User%3ACommonsDelinker%40global&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=&hide_thanks_log=1&hide_tag_log=1 temporarily locked] by stewards until images can be undeleted so that it doesn't go removing images from hundreds of articles. See [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log/Daphne_Lantier the commons log]. Not sure if the CommonsDelinker got anything here but some users might want to take a look. --[[User:Cameron11598|Cameron<sub><small>11598</small></sub>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Cameron11598|(Talk)]] </sup> 05:41, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
:I didn't see anything that looked like it had been removed but someone else may want to check. --[[User:Cameron11598|Cameron<sub><small>11598</small></sub>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Cameron11598|(Talk)]] </sup> 05:48, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
This rouge commons admin is a sockpuppet of [[User:INeverCry]], who was blocked for 14 days here after the sockpuppetry was found out (with Daphne Lantier here indef blocked). Considering that Lantier then went rouge on Commons, and that INeverCry's response here to the sock block was ":{{ping|Courcelles}} No worries. I've got other accounts I can use. {{smiley|wink}}", I have changed their block here to indef as well. Not the kind of editor we want to keep around in my opinion. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 06:24, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

:<small>McCarthyism is alive and well.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 06:37, 11 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
:::<small>?? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 15:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
::::<small>{{re|Beyond My Ken}} all this talk of reds...  never mind.  Really.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 16:24, 11 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
::The delinker massively affected the [[:Narendra Modi]] and related Indian political articles. As it happens, I think those deletions may have been correct. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 06:39, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Perhaps, but I think the "rouge" part is about them deleting at Commons things like the Commons Bureaucrat's Noticeboard or the pages on Obama and Trump... [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 06:48, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
::::[[User:Filedelinkerbot]] might need a shutdown too, not sure if its done, or works in waves. --[[User:Cameron11598|Cameron<sub><small>11598</small></sub>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Cameron11598|(Talk)]] </sup> 06:45, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::{{noping|GoldenRing}} did the needful (it had been unlinking stuff)  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 06:52, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::To be clear, I blocked out of caution; I've no objection to anyone unblocking if they are confident that there won't be further collateral damage without consulting me.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 07:02, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Good block, I was geared up to do the same - it ''appears'' to have been busy unlinking things with edit summaries of {{tq|It was deleted on Commons by Daphne Lantier ...}} so a cautionary block while this is smoothed out was spot on  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 07:05, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
:I don't know whether it was an attempt at levity, or a misspelling, but the admin actions at commons were definitely rogue, not [[WP:ROUGE|rouge]], so I've updated the title of this section. —[[User:DoRD|DoRD]] ([[User talk:DoRD|talk]]) 12:36, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
::<small>C'mon, reds under the bed, geddit?  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 12:45, 11 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
:::<small>Here I am thinking we had an admin trying to use too much make up. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 12:54, 11 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
:::{{re|DoRD}} was definitely a misspelling, I have dyslexia, occasionally I make small slip ups like this. --[[User:Cameron11598|Cameron<sub><small>11598</small></sub>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Cameron11598|(Talk)]] </sup> 17:14, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
::::[[Wikipedia:Rouge admin]]? [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 22:20, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Commons seems to have found [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons%3ARequests_for_checkuser%2FCase%2FINeverCry&type=revision&diff=255067927&oldid=255051307 another account]. [[User:Ansh666|ansh]][[User talk:Ansh666|<span style="font-size:80%">''666''</span>]] 22:04, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
:A checkuser has found it to be [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/INeverCry&diff=255119824&oldid=255067927 unrelated]. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 11:40, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{u|DoRD}} concurred [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/INeverCry&diff=795156908&oldid=795121506 here]. [[User:GeneralizationsAreBad|GAB]]<sup>[[User talk:GeneralizationsAreBad|gab]]</sup> 17:02, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

== [[Eddsworld]] ==

Is it possible to recover the article's history made [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Eddsworld_(3rd_nomination)|pre-deletion]] and remove the edits made before July 24, 2017, when the article was a redirect? [[Special:Contributions/80.183.30.39|80.183.30.39]] ([[User talk:80.183.30.39|talk]]) 16:39, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
:Why? [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 19:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
: I suspect that article will be back at [[WP:AFD]] before too long. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 19:11, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
::Per [[WP:G4]], I've reverted this to a redirect. There's no more evidence of notability than there was last time at AfD. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 19:16, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
:::That works for me, Rob. :). --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 00:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

== ACC bit help ==
Two ACC users have been suspended due to inactivity, [[User:TheMesquito|TheMesquito]] and [[User:Kharkiv07|Kharkiv07]] both have the ACC bit which needs to be removed while on suspension per [[Wikipedia:Request an account/Procedures#Suspension|this guideline]]. Thank you,  - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:FlightTime|<span style="color:#800000">'''FlightTime'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:FlightTime|<span style="color:#FFD700">'''open channel'''</span>]])</small></span> 20:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
:I've removed the right from both users.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 21:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Block ==
{{atop|status=They were asking for it|{{noping|Fastily}} obliged their request  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 20:21, 16 August 2017 (UTC)}}
Can Administrators please block me until 30 August.This is to enforce a wikibreak for my meatspace priorities.(The Wikibreak template will not work because I also edit from a mobile)'''''[[User:Forceradical|<span style="background:; color: orange">RADICAL</span>]] [[User talk:Forceradical|<span style="background-color:; color: blue">SODA<sup><span style="background-color:; color: green">(FORCE)</span></sup></span>]]''''' 07:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
:Done, enjoy your break!  -[[User talk:Fastily|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:Indigo;font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-size:120%;">F</span><span style="font-size:90%;">ASTILY</span></span>]] 08:43, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== [[Talk:Jared Taylor]] ==

The presence of admins at [[Talk:Jared Taylor]] would be useful to help maintain decor in the current discussion. [[User:Power~enwiki|Power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|talk]]) 02:14, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

:{{small|New drapes should be enough. Maybe some floral arrangements. &#8213;[[User:Mandruss|<span style="color:#775C57;">'''''Mandruss'''''</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mandruss|<span style="color:#999;">&#9742;</span>]] 02:46, 14 August 2017 (UTC)}}
::{{small|I was thinking maybe changing the color on the walls? [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 12:29, 14 August 2017 (UTC)}}
:::{{small|A nice bit of [[Kazimir Malevich]] should [[White on White|do it]]. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 12:38, 14 August 2017 (UTC)}}

== [[User:Ronhjones]] is essentially botting ==

[[Wikipedia:Non-free content]] states that non-free images must be low resolution but there is no fixed definition.  Editors must evaluate images individually and before tagging them with {{tl|Non-free reduce}}.  There ''must'' be an individual review at the tagging stage, because the image shrinking reduction is automated via bots such as [[User:DatBot]] and Ronhjones' [[User:RonBot]].

[[User:Ronhjones]] is making [[Special:Contributions/Ronhjones|50+ edits a minute]] tagging images for automated reduction.  This is bot behavior, there is no human review or oversight to this process. - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<span style="color:green;">e</span>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 14:20, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{ping|Hahnchen}} Did you ask him if he had reviewed them first? You seem to assume he did not. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 14:52, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
::These tags are not being made at a human rate. If they are reviewed offline beforehand, and are bot-tagged in a batch, that is still a problem because the batches are so large that they cannot be reasonably reviewed by anyone. I only noticed this behaviour when I realised that both images had been auto-tagged (and now reverted) at featured article [[Warlugulong]]. - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<span style="color:green;">e</span>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 15:56, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:::As I have explained several times, to editors who bother to ask me (see my talk page archives) - the '''actual''' adding of the {{tl|non-free reduce}} tags is the third and final stage of a lengthy process. 
:::#I repeat the search that I did last time, in AWB in pre-parse mode - that gives me a small list (about 50) that are either new or are the result of the template being removed. I examine the history of this small set to see if I have been reverted. If reverted I will then re-assess the image and try to argue it's case with the editor, if we still disagree then go to [[WP:FFD]] - so far I have only had to do that once - see [[Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2017_July_29#File:TNA_Heavyweight_Championship.jpeg]]
:::#I reduce the '''fileres:''' parameter that I used before (by 3-5 units) and then do an advanced search in Wikipedia, so I can view the images over quite a few hours and see if I think that some won't reduce without extensive corruption of the image. If I see such an item then I will tag it appropriately with either {{tl|non-free no reduce}} or {{tl|non-free manual reduce}} - the choice depends on whether I think that no reduction is possible or some reduction (but not to the [[WP:Image resolution]] guideline) is possible. Only when all images have been viewed that I move to stage 3.
:::#I use the same list of files from (2) in AWB to add the tag - the setup is made to not add tags to files that match the RegEx {{purple|<nowiki>(non-free no reduce|non-free manual reduce|Orphaned|non-free reduce|OTRS|Di-|ffd)</nowiki>}} - thus not to add to
:::::a) Files tagged for no reduction
:::::b) Files tagged for manual reduction
:::::c) Files tagged for orphaned files to be revdel (while a big version is visible the search with fileres: will pick it up)
:::::d) Files tagged with some OTRS template
:::::e) Files tagged for pseudo-speedy delete
:::::f) Files tagged for [[WP:FFD]]
:::::Then it just a matter of saving each file with the tag. Use of AWB is invaluable with the "skip" facility that matches the RegEx.
:::Currently I'm getting 99.8% of the files reduced without any complaints - and the vast majority of these have been sorted out with a simple discussion. As regards [[user:Hahnchen]]'s image that he reverted - [[:File:Warlugulong - Zoom.png]] - The guideline size for this image would be 365x274 - I have just tried that in PhotoShop and I see no issue with the reduced size - in fact the size in the article is only 140px wide - so why is a reduction to 365px an issue? This one falls into the same issues as I had with [[Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2017_July_29#File:TNA_Heavyweight_Championship.jpeg]], where editors are trying to keep a big file image without reason, which therefore fails [[WP:NFCC#9]]. [[User:Ronhjones|<b style="border:1px solid #dfdfdf;color:green; padding:1px 3px;background:#FFD">Ron<span style="color:red">h</span>jones&nbsp;</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ronhjones|&nbsp;(Talk)]]</sup> 18:12, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

::::{{Anchor|hahnchen}}You're getting 99.8% of the files reduced without complaints because no one knows what you're doing.  There are no notifications anywhere and the reduction-deletion process is automated.  A lot of the reductions are just of no value, it's just pointless busy-work.  Non-free content means using low resolution images, and many of the images you've tagged, such as the images in [[Warlugulong]] were reviewed as such as part of the [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Warlugulong/archive1|featured article process]].  These ''are'' low resolution images, they conform with [[Wikipedia:Non-free content]].  That they don't fit into an arbitrary 100,000 number is irrelevant, a number described on the guideline itself as "no firm guideline".
::::Users shouldn't have to search through your talk page archives for an explanation, if it looks like you're botting, you should be very clear on on your user page.  According to [[User_talk:Ronhjones/Archive_32#File:Futurama-cast.png]] you "quickly look through a list of images and then use awb to add the tag", at [[User_talk:Ronhjones/Archive_32#Non-free_reduce_bot]] you mentioned how you scan down a page of 2000 images.  You do not consider the size and complexity of the object depicted, the size of the source image, or its use it the article, or even the file's history.

::::I have only realised ''now'' that you reduced [[:File:Starcommand2013battle.jpg]] to an unreadable mush despite previous bot-reductions being reverted. You messed up the pixel art on low resolution pixel art images [[:File:Ranger X - Gameplay.png]] and [[:File:David Crane's Amazing Tennis - Gameplay.png]], the former's resolution was previously discussed and reverted at [[User_talk:Nthep/Archive_7#Undeletion_Request_-_File:Ranger_X_-_Gameplay.png]]. You only get away with this because no one notices. - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<span style="color:green;">e</span>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 17:42, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::God, there's more.  How on earth was [[:File:Dys4ia.png]] reduced?  How can [[Super Nintendo]] screenshots possibly be "high resolution"?  All the reductions do to images like [[:File:Star Fox - Gameplay.png]] is introduce scaling issues.  The original resolution of the image is 256 x 224.  It was uploaded at 512 x 448 size because that's the size I had set on the emulator, this does not change the resolution, merely that 4 pixels make up 1.  This has happened because you are scanning 2000 images per page without due care and attention and have not notified any of the uploaders. - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<span style="color:green;">e</span>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 17:49, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

=== This has got to stop ===
I previously came across this user's unjustifiable mass flagging at [[:File:Windows 95 Desktop screenshot.png]], [[:File:Windows NT 4.0.png]], [[:File:Windows NT 3.5.png]], and [[:File:Windows 3.0 workspace.png]], which caused a bunch of problems that time that required intervention from another admin to resolve (see [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive289#Possible issue with non-free files with orphaned versions]]).

Now I just found out what happened to [[:File:Chip's Challenge.png]], and from there this timely discussion. I have to say, if [[User:Ronhjones]] were not an admin I have a strong feeling this discussion would be going rather differently. [[User:Modernponderer|Modernponderer]] ([[User talk:Modernponderer|talk]]) 12:22, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:There are a whole host of screenshots that have been tagged (mainly by myself, sometimes after a simple discussion) with {{tl|non-free no reduce}} - see [[:Category:Non-free images tagged for no reduction]], Whether or not they are all justifiable to be there, is maybe a subject for future discussion, in general these are often saved at a size which is not used within the article - and if one extended [[User:BU Rob13]]'s comment at [[Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2017_July_29#File:TNA_Heavyweight_Championship.jpeg]], then maybe some of these might need some more attention - and also the bitmap files which are lingering in [[:Category:Wikipedia non-free file size reduction requests for manual processing]] due to having been tabbed with {{tl|non-free manual reduce}}. Where the editors have cared to discuss with me, then I have tried to work with them - At times, I've even reversed the RevDel on request to go back to the larger image. The vast majority of non-free images hosted here need to be reduced, as most uploaders do not upload a suitable size. Back in September we had over 250,000 non-free images that were bigger than 105000 pixels (anything less than this, and DatBot will not reduce) - now we down to 120,000 images that I have not examined, and these are in the range of 180625 to 105000 pixels (so in fact the only screenshots now will be new uploads). I agree there have been a relatively tiny amount of contested files, but that was an inevitable outcome of trying to process this huge amount of over-sized files. [[User:Ronhjones|<b style="border:1px solid #dfdfdf;color:green; padding:1px 3px;background:#FFD">Ron<span style="color:red">h</span>jones&nbsp;</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ronhjones|&nbsp;(Talk)]]</sup> 18:57, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::Per [[WP:MEATBOT]], speed alone does not violate the bot policy. If the images are being manually reviewed then tagged in batches without errors that a human would not make, this is compliant with bot policy. I want to be clear that reducing the resolution of these images is legally important to justify fair use under US copyright law; this isn't being done without reason. Policies with legal considerations are not subject to consensus per [[WP:CONEXCEPT]]. In particular, the WMFs licensing policy is relevant and preempts consensus. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 19:22, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::IANAL, but I don't believe it's '''''legally''''' required to reduce them, it's required to reduce them so as to not violate NFCC, which is more stringent then fair use (which is not a law, but a set of ''de facto'' standards set by numerous court rulings over the years). [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:43, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
::::The courts decide what constitutes fair use, but the concept itself is written into law (in its most general possible sense). One of the prongs of a test for fair use is the extent of the use. You need to use the minimum amount necessary for your purpose or this weighs unfavorably against the use. When we render an image at info box size in an article but retain it publicly at a much higher resolution, that's hard to justify. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 23:49, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Sure, I get that, but an infobox is not the only place a non-free image can be used, so keeping reasonably-sized images (the short side somewhere near 300px) is a good thing, as opposed to much larger images. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 16:38, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::We want uses to consider the "minimal extent" aspect of non-free policy. A 1080p screenshot of a TV show for purposes of otherwise appropriate illustration of a TV show isn't needed if a 320x240 image would do the same. A high-res album cover is rarely needed at above 300x300 for infobox purposes. And so on. Sphilbrick has it right that part of this is prevent commercial value of the original image - at reduced size, no one is going to be able to talk a WP non-free image and repurpose it for commercial value that the original commercial copyright holder had. The 0.1 megapixel guidance works well for most common non-free media types (TV, films, album covers, film posters, video game screenshots, book covers, modern paintings, etc.) given the typical aspect ratio, but it is not an absolute requirement and has flexibility. It doesn't mean you can use 1.0 megapixel images freely - users requiring non-free well above that can use it but then we expect a strong rationale of why the size can't be made smaller (such as for reading essential text on the image). --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 22:14, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
<s>*Question: [[:File:Map of Illinois Historic sites 2012.jpg]] when it was reduced by RJ, its print became virtually unreadable, reducing ts educational value.  Can it not be not reduced? [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 13:07, 8 August 2017 (UTC)</s> I have removed the file, as it is no longer of use. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 01:31, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
::I agree, it's useless at that size. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 16:43, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
::: I think that is excessive, but it was done by [[User:Sphilbrick|another admin]]. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]], [[Special:CentralAuth/Jo-Jo Eumerus|contributions]]) 16:44, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:::: <small>Just for the record, I did not reduce the Illinois map image, the reduction was done by Datbot, and I processed the rev del of the unused image per policy.--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#000E2F;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">S Philbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 19:17, 8 August 2017 (UTC)</small>  
{{od}}I'll make a couple points, some of which have been made above but some of which are worth repeating for emphasis. In many cases, reduction may be required for legal reasons, although Wikipedia deliberately takes a conservative view with respect to fair use — we don't want to bump up against the legal limits because that might invite lawsuits and a lawsuit you when is still a lawsuit you lose due to legal cost. For that reason (and this applies to copyright as well), we attempt to enforce standards within Wikipedia that are more stringent than the law requires.

The goal, as I understand it, of the NFCC requirements, I that we should produce images that might be usable in the context of an encyclopedia but would be a sufficiently poor resolution that blowing up for a poster or inclusion in a book would not be ideal, thereby reducing the likelihood that someone will subvert the potential for sale of a copyrighted item. I realize that creates a tension, in the case of very busy images which when reduced to our general guidelines (approximate <s>.1 MB</s> <u>0.1 megapixels</u> if I remember correctly) are unreadable even in Wikipedia. I understand our desire to have images that are readable, but I'd want a legal opinion that this overrides the normal goal of keeping image is sufficiently small before I would simply okay a larger image.

I'll also note, although it is specific to the Illinois image and not necessarily useful in general, but I'm in conversation with the Kansas historical Society regarding some text I recently removed as a copyright violation and there's a chance they will license it. I note the Illinois image is owned by the Illinois historic preservation agency, and it would certainly be worth checking to see if they would be willing to explicitly license it.--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#000E2F;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">S Philbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 17:46, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll also point out that while the map of Illinois sites is almost useless at that resolution and would be more useful at a larger resolution, that's not the only way to deliver that information. As an example, I created the map in [[List of Connecticut state parks]]. I will argue that a map like that portrays the information even better than a large version of the Illinois map and has the added advantage that there are no copyright issues. Obviously, it does mean someone's got to go through the work of tracking down the latitude and longitude of each location, but it's doable. One of the rationales for using a copyrighted image is that the information cannot be replaceable by other means and I'll argue this map shows that's not the case. I think it is obviously true in the case of corporate logos, but a map of locations can easily be replicated with free information. In fact, even at the reduced level, I think an argument could be made that the Illinois map doesn't comply with our nonfree use rationale.--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#000E2F;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">S Philbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 17:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:The Illinois map is super replaceable. I've nominated it for deletion. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 19:01, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

From this discussion it's clear to me this is an issue that should be resolved through clearer policy in terms of which images can be subject to automated or quasi-automated tagging, at the very least. My apologies to [[User:Ronhjones]] for jumping into the discussion rather harshly; it was out of frustration at seeing so many images being ruined.

Could an admin please restore the original revision of [[:File:Chip's Challenge.png]]? The original resolution was already not that large, and the current version is utterly unacceptable. [[User:Modernponderer|Modernponderer]] ([[User talk:Modernponderer|talk]]) 20:09, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{ping|Modernponderer}} Done that for you, and added no reduce template. Also restored history as quite a bit had been deleted (the old way of treating orphaned images). In view of other comments, you might like to consider making the image in the article a better size and not use "thumb" [[User:Ronhjones|<b style="border:1px solid #dfdfdf;color:green; padding:1px 3px;background:#FFD">Ron<span style="color:red">h</span>jones&nbsp;</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ronhjones|&nbsp;(Talk)]]</sup> 22:31, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{re|Modernponderer|Ronhjones}} Woah there. This image is not rendered that large in the article. If that's the case, we can't ''store'' it that large. We don't store non-free images larger than how they're included in mainspace, because the use in mainspace is the whole "educational purpose" bit that weighs in favor of fair use; extending our use beyond that may or may not be fair use but is legally treacherous and invites lawsuits at the very least. The whole "This couldn't ''possibly'' be used at a smaller size!" argument is defeated when it ''is'' being used solely at a smaller size. I'm taking this to FfD. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 18:07, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Er, that's not true. NFC doesn't correlate at all to Mediawiki display sizes, at least directly. Thumbnails are the most preferred way to display images but are not the only way. Yes, the 0.1MP size suggestion is loosely tied to the 300px max thumbnail size, but it's not something we enforce, and there are valid reasons to have images presented and/or stored larger than the thumbnail. The size aspect is more propertly set by NFCC#3a , minimizing copytaking, as well as NFCC#2, reducing opportunities for harming commercial reuse of the original work. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-size:x-small;">ASEM</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 18:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

=== Please disable [[User:Theo's Little Bot]] task 1 ===
Despite the nature of automated image resizing under active discussion with unaddressed concerns [[#hahnchen|above]], the resizer was [[User:Theo's Little Bot/disable/resizer|restarted]].  I do not have the rights to re-disable it. - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<span style="color:green;">e</span>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 14:07, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
:Disabled pending review of last update by [[User:Ronhjones]]. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
::There has never been an issue with the re-sizer - all the about text refers to the actual '''manual''' adding of {{tl|non-free reduce}} tags - no-one has ever mentioned the re-sizing bot or '''even''' suggested that we disable the bot (which we did not do) - so it was '''never restarted''' as the editor suggests. I had '''switched''' the resizer to Theo's bot - as we have a totally unrelated issue with DatBot6 where it is refusing to reduce some files and [[User:DatGuy]] has disabled it until he can fix it - Theo's version will work, but tends to fall over after some time (one might get 10 files done or 200 - very variable, but it's the only working bot) - I was hoping to see what Theo's bot would make of [[:File:Everybody's Fool (Evanescence single - cover art).jpg]] as this is one of the files that DatBot6 has refused, but Theo's bot has not yet done that file - it would be nice to see if the maths done in this script work or not. If we don't want the resizer bot working then we need a consensus. I'll start it again - it won't run until 6am anyway - time to let others comment. [[User:Ronhjones|<b style="border:1px solid #dfdfdf;color:green; padding:1px 3px;background:#FFD">Ron<span style="color:red">h</span>jones&nbsp;</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ronhjones|&nbsp;(Talk)]]</sup> 15:45, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
:::While there is no policy about image resolutions there is the guideline [[WP:IMAGERES]] which is where the 0.1 megapixels suggestion comes from.  If the uploaders of images think that there are valid reasons while that guideline should be ignored then the onus on them is either to explain that in the original rationale or if the image gets reduced or is tagged for reduction to discuss either on the file talk page or at [[WP:files for discussion]].  When the huge majority of images that are tagged are reduced without any controversy and there are a handful, by comparison, that become the subject of discussion is not grounds for disabling any bot that does the rescaling work. [[User:Nthep|Nthep]] ([[User talk:Nthep|talk]]) 16:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
::::As you've pointed out, [[WP:IMAGERES]] is a suggestion, it is not a firm guideline.  0.1 is an arbitrary number.  The only reason his reductions go through, is because no one is notified.  Even now, he is tagging low resolution images for reduction such as [[:File:The Simpsons Hit and Run cover.png]], [[:File:Tragic Ceremony.jpg]], [[:File:TonightCD1.jpg]] this is a waste of time and just because bots can automate this waste of time, doesn't mean we should be doing it. - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<span style="color:green;">e</span>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 07:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Xaosflux}}By re-enabling the bot, and with Ronhjones semi-automatically tagging 2000 pictures at a time, the entire process is automated again, without any review. I believe the bot should be disabled until there is consensus as to whether to allow automatic resizing (from the tagging through to the resizing).  Right now, stopping the bot is the easiest way of breaking the automated chain. - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<span style="color:green;">e</span>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 07:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
::::I only stopped that bot as a possible emergency, pending Ronhjones's review.  Please bring your initial concerns up to the bot operator, {{u|Theopolisme}}.  If you think it is malfunctioning, you can also get a review at [[WP:BOTN]].  From your description above though - this bot is working correctly - and you are having a dispute with {{re|Ronhjones}} that can be reviewed here. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 10:37, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::The last file to be tagged as part of the '''three stage process''', I outlined earlier, was {{purple|23:34, 4 August 2017}}. There have only been a couple of individual files tagged as a result of reviewing the reduced files. I am waiting for the result of this discussion before any resumption of any batch process. [[User:Ronhjones|<b style="border:1px solid #dfdfdf;color:green; padding:1px 3px;background:#FFD">Ron<span style="color:red">h</span>jones&nbsp;</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ronhjones|&nbsp;(Talk)]]</sup> 14:49, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

==Emergency semi-protection needed==
Would someone please deal with my request for semi-protection for [[Lotfi A. Zadeh]]?  Zadeh may or may not have recently died (he's 96), but IPs are editing the article to add death dates and change the tense from present to past, all without providing a citation from a [[WP:RS]] to show that he has actually died.  I've done several media searches and have yet to find anything except a report from an Azerbaijani sourse saying that his health took a turn for the worst.  Of course, the source also reported that his will says he wanted to be buried in Azerbaijan, so it's not entirely on unbiased and credible source of information on Zadeh (whose article has, in the past, been the subject of a lot of ethnic POV editing).  

It may well be that Zadeh has died, but until we have confirmation, semi-protecting the article seems to be the right course of action. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 13:44, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
:[[File:Pictogram voting support.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''[[Wikipedia:Protection policy#Semi-protection|Semi-protected]]'''&#32;for a period of '''1 month''', after which the page will be automatically unprotected.<!-- Template:RFPP#semi --> If it turns out that I need to bump it to EC-protection, drop me a note. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 13:51, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks very much. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 13:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
:::I don;t think Primefac is around right now, but the article needs further protection, either pending changes or full protection, as confirmed editors are now editor warring to add in Zadeh's supposed death.  The '''''only''''' sources reporting his death are Iranian, and it appears they are all based on a single source, Teheran University.  I don;t believe this is a reliable source for the dath of an American citizen, resident in America, especially since there's been ethic POV fighting about whether Zadeh is Azerbaijani or Iranian. Would another admin please step in and protect the article '''''without''''' Zadeh's supposed death, until it can be confirmed by a reliable source? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Article protected 2 days. Figure it out on the talk page. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] (<sup>[[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]</sub>) 00:10, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Aye, sorry 'bout that. Looks like Ivanvector took care of it. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 00:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::No, the information hat Zadeh has died '''''must''''' come out of the article, as until it is confirmed by a relaibel source, it is a BLP violation.  Please remove it. . When a reliable source confirms it, if they do, we can re-add it, but at this moment there is only an Iranian government source for this information. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::I reacted to the "emergency" after only verifying that an edit war over a supposed death was in fact in progress, without checking the facts for myself (that's for the editors to do on the talk page, IMO), but Primefac has removed the info and I agree that one not-really-reliable source for this is not sufficient. I probably won't be able to watch this very closely; if it's resolved, any admin can feel free to remove my protection. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] (<sup>[[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]</sub>) 00:31, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::::Thanks to both of you.  As I said on the talk page, once it's been confirmed by a reliable source, I'll withdraw my objections. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::Just to note that the report of Zadeh's death, released by Tehran University, which started this whole mess, has now been withdrawn, and that I received an e-mail from Zadeh's research assistant answering my inquiry.  She says that "Professor Zadeh is alive and well." Herein lie the reasons we don't add someone's death to an article until we're '''''really''''' certain about it. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 23:42, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::Thanks for keeping us updated {{u|Beyond My Ken}}. I've got it on my watchlist now, so if people start mucking about again I'll re-protect it. Hopefully your posts on the talk page will kill all death-seekers. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 01:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::I wonder if it might not be a good idea to restore the full protection for a while, say a wekk, until this dies does.  I ask since another editor just added the "information".  I can keep deleting it, but I hate for their to be moments when people reading Wikipedia think the man is dead when he is not. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:38, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::::I hate to fully-protect it for just that. I've added a helpful commented-out note in the {{para|death_date}} field, which hopefully anyone seeing will cause them to stop. However, if it's edited again by the time I check tomorrow, I'll fully-protect again. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 02:43, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::::OK, sure, that's good.  Thanks for the hidden note.  I was just off looking for a template for the top of the page.  We have one for "recent death" and we have one for "presumed death" but we don't have one for "unconfirmed death" or "falsely reported death". [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

== An ANI thread worth having a look at ==

Hi all, I know some of you (''cleverly'') steer clear of ANI, but just to raise awareness of the thread "[[WP:ANI#Heads up: Named (but not outed) editors in Breitbart piece on WP edits surrounding the Google Memo]]" <small>([[Special:Diff/795567469|permalink]])</small> - I don't think there's any immediate admin action required, but eyes on [[Google's Ideological Echo Chamber]] would be helpful  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 07:06, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

== Should we add another pillar? ==
{{hat|Good talk. [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ&nbsp;Keeper]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Writ Keeper|&#9863;]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|&#9812;]] 17:18, 15 August 2017 (UTC)}}
After looking again at the [[Wikipedia:Five_pillars|Five pillars]] of WP, it seems that another one might be considered useful. Something like '''Do not expose or complain about violations of the other five''', or maybe '''Don't Be Too Bold'''. If this is the wrong place to ask, please redirect me, since I'd hate to get banned or blocked again for asking a question.

Basically, on more than four occasions where I've either complained or simply asked about apparent violations of policies or guidelines, it's resulted in me getting banned or blocked. For example, just [[User_talk:Light_show#Topic_banned_from_all_biographies|yesterday]], as a result of noting or implying apparent violations on the [[Talk:Charlie_Chaplin#Ignoring_reliable_sources|Charlie Chaplin]] article. Or previously, for noting multiple violations for the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive854#User:SchroCat_and_User:Cassianto Peter Sellers] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive266#Tag_team_uncivility_by_User:Dr._Blofeld.2C_User:Cassianto_and_User:SchroCat Stanley Kubrick] articles, for which I was and still am one of their main contributors. 

And since I also like improving bios that need images, I've been bold (or stupid) enough to ask about [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions/Archive/2013/December#Is_WP_melting.2C_merging_or_undermining_U.S._copyright_law.3F image policies,] which got me blocked immediately after asking. Of the hundreds of biographies I've contributed to, the only coincidental fact about those three particular bios is that the person was British or lived in Britain, a fact I noticed since I typically work on American bios. And after 10 years of actively editing, I don't recall be accused of violating guidelines about civility, being neutral, tag teaming, harassment, assuming good faith, and rarely even edit warring. Same for using only reliable sources or fixing BLP issues.  

In any case, after questioning or sometimes complaining about violations of four of the five pillars, I've been banned or blocked since complaining is apparently considered disruptive. So I'm naturally curious whether we should consider adding a sixth pillar. --[[User:Light show|Light show]] ([[User talk:Light show|talk]]) 17:06, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
{{hab}}

==User Drrob2017 ==
I would like to bring attention to a new user Drrob2017  [[User talk:Drrob2017]] with a single purpose account who has been updating many mathematical pages with references to a certain piece of work, possibly his. <ref>{{Cite journal|last=Soltani|first=R.|last2=Bash|first2=B.|last3=Goeckel|first3=D.|last4=Guha|first4=S.|last5=Towsley|first5=D.|date=September 2014|title=Covert single-hop communication in a wireless network with distributed artificial noise generation|url=http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7028575/|journal=2014 52nd Annual Allerton Conference on Communication, Control, and Computing (Allerton)|pages=1078–1085|doi=10.1109/ALLERTON.2014.7028575}}</ref> [[User:Limit-theorem|Limit-theorem]] ([[User talk:Limit-theorem|talk]]) 20:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

Are these additions accurate and relevant?  (I can't evaluate, since I don't have any real maths background.)  That's the only standard by which these additions should be evaluated.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 11:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

You should probably leave a note at [[WT:MATHS]]. They will probably assess the relevance much more quickly than the administrators who watch this page. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 12:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

:That's right. Admins are not the primary deciders in issues of which sources are consiered reliable. Either ask at a relevant WikiProject (in this case, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics]]), or at [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard]]. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 19:44, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
::I don't see any reason to question the reliability of the source; the Allerton Conference is [http://allerton.csl.illinois.edu/ put on] by the University of Illinois-Champaign, so its proceedings are an academic publication in a maths-related field and quite reliable for this subject.  The issue is whether the statements are accurate (including, do they reflect the source correctly?) and whether the statements belong in the article (I could add a statement from this source to [[6 (Supersilent album)]] or [[Royal Moroccan Athletics Federation]], but it probably wouldn't belong), but not reliability.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 21:27, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

== Vandalism after block (more than one day) ==

If someone is constantly vandalizing several days after their block has ended, what do you do? Would I have to start warning them four more times again? The account I'm referring to is basically a vandalism only account, however they sprinkle in good edits to avoid being banned, so I'm almost positive reporting for that would be denied. [[User:TBMNY|TBMNY]] ([[User talk:TBMNY|talk]]) 03:10, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
:#If the user's edits are, in fact, vandalism, then you can make a report at AIV which includes links to the specific diffs which represent vandalism; the existence of good edits won't prevent the block, although  they may make it not be indef (although the amount of effect this has will be reduced each block). 
:#Warnings are not bureaucracy - if you can show the user knows that what (s)he's doing is wrong, (s)he can be blocked for it even without a fresh set of warnings. With an account, you can assume that they saw the previous set of warnings, although a new level 4 warning may still be helpful.
:#Please keep in mind that several other types of edits are often misclassified as vandalism - please see [[WP:VANDNOT]]. Without knowing which account you're referring to, we can't judge it.
:[[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 04:35, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
::Whether dealing with a new-ish account or with an IP address, if I see vandalism coming soon after a block's expiration, I'll start with a level-3 warning.  Level 1 is for when you're assuming good faith, and 2 for when you're not sure; when someone resumes the stuff that got him blocked, you can assume bad faith, since you're being given obvious evidence for not [[WP:AGF|assuming good faith]].  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:37, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

==Possible vandalism at the page [[IAAF World Championships in Athletics]]==
See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IAAF_World_Championships_in_Athletics&type=revision&diff=795788261&oldid=795755359 this edit] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IAAF_World_Championships_in_Athletics&type=revision&diff=795788261&oldid=795755359 this]. See also he coorect comment of [[User:Hyperion1982]] that complains ''«I don't understand why the list of most successful athletes was been erased from this page. The list of athletes who won more medals is also indicative but the main task in Athletics is to win gold rather than just a medal»'' --[[User:Kasper2006|Kasper2006]] ([[User talk:Kasper2006|talk]]) 17:42, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
:[[User:Kasper2006|Kasper2006]], your links are identical.  Did you mean to supply a different URL (perhaps [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=795788341]) for one of them?  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 02:35, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
::That's right. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IAAF_World_Championships_in_Athletics&type=revision&diff=795788261&oldid=795755359 Unjustifiable cancellation of All-time placing table] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=795788341 Unjustifiable cancellation of Multiple winners] ;) --[[User:Kasper2006|Kasper2006]] ([[User talk:Kasper2006|talk]]) 04:09, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Urgent: Serious Vandalism of Article Mukesh Hariawala (Needs Speedy Deletion)  ==
{{atop|Other than the standard AFD workflow, which will happen regardless of this discussion, there is nothing here for admins to deal with.  [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 16:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)}}
Dear Admins, 

Regarding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukesh_Hariawala

I am creator and the primary author of the above article. This article had gone for a deletion discussion on August 3rd  2017 and no constructive edits  were offered. 
Recently, some of the editor managed to delete 90% of the article without proper research or going through the citation making it filled with misinformation and half facts that now which constitute a nomination for SPEEDY DELETION. 

I have nominated the article for speedy deletion twice CSD G7 and both the times and  the same editors who have deleted the original article are reversing it. 
Further, the copyright owner of the picture displayed has denied permission for it's display. 

I request you to kindly delete the page promptly,  this is extremely damaging for the moral of future contributors and the mission of Wikipedia. Thanks. --[[User:Saipawar4|Saipawar4]] ([[User talk:Saipawar4|talk]]) 07:53, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
*Investigating. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 10:56, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

:I have moved this from [[WT:AN]]. Because there are other editors who have made significant edits to the article, it is not eligible for speedy deletion under [[WP:G7]], though it looks pretty clear which way the associated AfD is going. However I have some significant concerns about this editor. They registered an account less than a month ago, during which time they have made nearly seven hundred edits to [[Mukesh Hariawala]], accounting for the vast majority of their edits. The walls of text at AfD are also not encouraging. However I'm having a hard time telling if this is someone with a very entrenched COI or a very, very keen new editor who needs to slow down - a lot - and learn how things work. Informed opinions are sought.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 10:59, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
: {{re|Kudpung}} My apologies that you got to this before my explanation arrived - see above. [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 11:00, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{U|GoldenRing}}, over to you then. I'm not particularly interested in disentangling this one. I just happen to react very quickly when something comes upon my wl with 'urgent' on it.  [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 11:17, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
* Saipawar4 emailed Oversight this weekend complaining about the 'serious vandalism' done to the article by this pruning. I left a comment about it at the AFD, and since then I've been spammed on my talk page by various 'colleagues' who can attest to what an 'iconic' and 'renowned' surgeon he is. I don't care if he has an article or not, but there's something fishy going on here. <span style="color: #9932CC">[[:User:KrakatoaKatie|Katie]]<sup>[[User talk:KrakatoaKatie|talk]]</sup></span> 15:22, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

*OTRS is reviewing the image, AFD is reviewing the article.  I don't see anything that requires admin jump in with the tools.  For the record, I just went and commented to Delete at the AFD.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 15:50, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abottom}}

== Why do these accounts exist? ==

*{{u|Thequeenjenni}}
*{{u|Thequeenjenni1}}
*{{u|ThequeenJenni15}}
*{{u|Thequeenjenni16}}
I'm sure I see the logic in (presumably one editor) creating multiple accounts like this. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 17:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
*What do you want an administrator to do? [[User:Reyk|<span style="color:maroon;">'''Reyk'''</span>]] [[User talk:Reyk|'''<sub style="color:blue;">YO!</sub>''']] 17:41, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
:*{{replyto|Reyk}} I found these userpages through [[WP:NPP]]. If I take this to [[WP:SPI]], I've made an accusation and I imagine these accounts are too stale to be useful. By bringing the issue here I'm letting the community know I've found something that seems problematic. I'd prefer to see each of these accounts blocked as I see no good coming from this, but it's not up to me. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 02:25, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
*They may exist because there was nothing stopping them, and the policy on doing that (as much as it can be construed) wasn't pointed out to them. Actually they were notified of the policy a month ago, and there don't seem to be any examples of accounts created since they were notified. So, why didn't they create further accounts? because they were asked not to. -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 17:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
**We block stale socks of active sockpuppeteers because there's a high chance that they will become active at some point otherwise; there is no need to block these unless we see any significant activity from at least 2 of them - and I dount this will happen. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 14:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Creating multiple accounts isn't in itself a violation of the [[WP:SOCK|multiple accounts policy]], noting that each one of these accounts has exactly one edit (creating their user page) and each occurred inside a timespan of a few minutes. It's clearly one user, but until they do something actually problematic, [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]]. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] (<sup>[[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]</sub>) 20:01, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

== Requested move may need administrator overview ==

The requested move of [[Australian survey, 2017 (Marriage)]] to a different title has been discussed at [[Talk:Australian survey, 2017 (Marriage)#Requested move 10 August 2017]], and having been discussed for seven days, as another user has summarised, there appears consensus to move to a different title, but there is perhaps some conjecture about which title to move it to. Among the issues are whether the year needs to be included or not, and whether the official legal title should be used or some variation of a title used in media. Some admins might be best placed to help determine the more appropriate approach to a title. '''-- [[User:Whats new?|Whats new?]]<sup>[[User talk:Whats new?|(talk)]]</sup>''' 23:43, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== AIV == 
Do any administrators care about AIV anymore? Noticing a huge back log, and reports that have been there since this morning that need attention of administrators. Thanks. [[User:SparklingPessimist|<span style="color: aquamarine">Sparkling</span><span style="color: turquoise">Pessimist</span>]] [[User talk:SparklingPessimist|<small><sup><span style="color: purple">''Scream at me!''</span></sup></small>]] 01:49, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:Not really the right way to go about getting admin assistance, starting with an implied insult. See: Flies/honey/vinegar. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:09, 24 August 2017 (UTC) 
::Not an insult, just a legit question and I didn't post here to start drama. [[User:SparklingPessimist|<span style="color: aquamarine">Sparkling</span><span style="color: turquoise">Pessimist</span>]] [[User talk:SparklingPessimist|<small><sup><span style="color: purple">''Scream at me!''</span></sup></small>]] 02:13, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Article move ==
{{archive top|status=discussion moved|result=Not an admin issue, discussion moved to [[Talk:Ñuble Province]] &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 08:06, 20 August 2017 (UTC)}}
Hello, the article [[Ñuble Province]] needs to be moved to [[Ñuble Region]] because the province has been transformed in region today [http://www.latercera.com/noticia/firma-bachelet-hoy-nace-region-nuble/ ref] But there already exist a redirection page, and can't be moved. Please someone help with this issue --[[File:Sudamérica-Blue.svg|8px]] [[User:Janitoalevic|Janitoalevic]] ([[User talk:Janitoalevic|talk]]) 04:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
: {{done}} For future reference you can use [[WP:RM|requested moves]] for move requests. &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 05:15, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
::Actually, {{u|Premeditated Chaos|PMC}} that reference translates as ''"At 18:30 the President will formalize in Chillán the decree that creates the new territorial division, <u>which will enter into regime from September 2018</u>. With signature of Bachelet today is born Region of Ñuble"'' - so perhaps that should not have been moved yet? I'm not sure. A matter for the article talk page, I suppose. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> [[User talk:Begoon|Begoon]]</span> 07:41, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Hmm. I took the formalization as the important part, but I see your point. I will self-revert and I'll make a note on the talk page. &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 07:53, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

{{Clear}}
== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prime Number Distribution Series]] ==


I request an administrator’s attention at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prime Number Distribution Series]].  The !voting is running unanimously in favor of deletion, but the author, [[User:Nuclearstrategy8]], is engaging in ''ad hominem'' attacks against the !voters.  It might be appropriate to check the weather in [[Buenos Aires]] or [[Auckland]] and see whether [[WP:SNOW|snow is falling]].  [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 06:04, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
:<small>[[Climate of Buenos Aires#Winter|Not likely]] and [[Auckland#Climate|also not likely]], respectively.  You need to go farther south :-)  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 11:59, 20 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
{{done}}. Closed by BU Rob13. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 13:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Request site ban for [[User:Orchomen|Orchomen]] ==
{{archive top|status=banned|result=Per consensus. [[User:King of Hearts|King of]] [[User:King of Hearts|<span style="color:red;">&hearts;</span>]] [[User talk:King of Hearts|<span style="color:red;">&diams;</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/King of Hearts|<span style="color:black;">&clubs;</span>]] &spades; 23:02, 19 August 2017 (UTC)}}
{{user|Orchomen}} has been nothing but sockpuppetry since they opened their account. Their MO consists of reverting certain users on random pages, creating fake SPI pages ([[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Callmemirela|Mine]] and [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Amaury|Amaury's]]), harassing users and creating sockpuppets. This has been going on since October of 2016. Their socking has gotten so bad that [[User:Amaury|Amaury]] has dedicated a page for all of their accounts and IPs, which can be seen [[User:Amaury/List of accounts and IPs used by Orchomen|here]]. Also, take a look at Orchomen's [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Orchomen|SPI page]] and notice the ''numerous'' times we've had to request blocks. At this point, I don't think they are here to contribute and [[WP:NOTHERE]]. We are always at SPI or requesting blocks the instance we notice a new IP or user and end up edit warring ([[WP:3RRNO]] #3). I request that Orchomen be site banned indefinitely. Pinging involved users: {{ping|Amaury}}, {{ping|IJBall}}, {{ping|Sro23}} and {{ping|MPFitz1968}}. [[User:Callmemirela|<span style="font-family:Playfair Display; color:#caa2ac;"><span style="font-size:14px;">Callmemirela</span></span>]] <span style="color:red">&#127809;</span> <sup>[[User talk:Callmemirela|<span style="font-family:Open Sans; color:#9cadad;"><span style= "font-size:11px; font-weight:bold; text-transform:uppercase; ">talk</span></span>]]</sup> 04:04, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

*'''Support''' as nom. [[User:Callmemirela|<span style="font-family:Playfair Display; color:#caa2ac;"><span style="font-size:14px;">Callmemirela</span></span>]] <span style="color:red">&#127809;</span> <sup>[[User talk:Callmemirela|<span style="font-family:Open Sans; color:#9cadad;"><span style= "font-size:11px; font-weight:bold; text-transform:uppercase; ">talk</span></span>]]</sup> 04:04, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' [[User:Amaury|Amaury]] (<small>[[User talk:Amaury|talk]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/Amaury|contribs]]</small>) 08:36, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Definitely no reason for them to be a part of the project. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 11:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom; we may have allowed hours of editors' time to be soaked up on this character, but it stops now. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 13:50, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as one of the "involved users" identified above who has had to put up with their antics. Following their block on October 16, 2016, they just continuously evaded their block by using various IPs(v4) having all sorts of initial numbers (31, 37, 94, 176, etc.), as well as creating all those various accounts. They reverted plenty of my edits for at least a few weeks after the October 16 block, presumably by looking thru my recent contributions list. Amaury and Callmemirela were among those even more targeted by this user. They were pretty conspicuous about their presence, when they made edits like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AAmaury%2FList_of_accounts_and_IPs_used_by_Orchomen&type=revision&diff=750767081&oldid=750731033] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ASockpuppet_investigations%2FOrchomen&type=revision&diff=750683268&oldid=750683123], among many others. [[User:MPFitz1968|MPFitz1968]] ([[User talk:MPFitz1968|talk]]) 15:08, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - Wow! An incredible number of accounts.  [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 16:41, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Clearly [[WP:NOTHERE]] not build the 'pedia. [[User:MarnetteD|MarnetteD]]&#124;[[User talk:MarnetteD|Talk]] 18:35, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''[[User:Floquenbeam/Most community ban discussions are dumb|Meh]]'''. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 18:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:*Really? So if I happen to identify a bunch of edits obviously by this person, and I remove them ''en masse'', and some (theoretical) hyper-persnickety admin blocks me because only the edits of a '''''banned''''' editor can be automatically removed, not the edits of a '''''blocked''''' editor, I can count on you to overturn my block, since the editor wasn't banned because "most community ban discussions are dumb"?{{parabr}}Obviously, a highly artificial hypothesis, but there really '''''is''''' an advantage to a community ban over a simple block.  For one thing, blocks can be overturned by the action of a single admin, but I think it's pretty well settled that a community ban can only be overturned by community discussion (or ArbCom).  That makes the removal of the disruptive editor that much more permanent, which is the additional security that the community is looking for in banning an editor. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 19:46, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:::The fact that it is a "highly artificial hypothesis" makes it not particularly useful to your argument, and it's fairly annoying that you think you've somehow addressed my comment by making it.  My whole point is that '''no''' admin is going to block you for reverting Orchomen socks' edits if there is no ban (in fact, the policy already says "banned or indefinitely blocked", I believe<sup>*</sup>), and '''no''' admin is going to unblock Orchomen unilaterally. They are already ''de facto'' banned, and there is zero practical benefit to this ban. Although I may be underestimating the benefit of the warm fuzzy feelings of communal hate of those who routinely vote on these things, and the joy it is probably bringing to Orchomen. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 20:09, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:::: *<small>[[WP:CSD#G5]]: "''This applies to pages created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block''".
::::[[WP:EVADE]]: "''Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a block, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule''". --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 20:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
::::::Well, we disagree.  I think a community ban provides an extra layer of security, and you don't think that it serves a purpose.  It's nice to say that someone is ''de facto'' banned, but one admin's opinion that an editor is "''de facto''" banned may not be shared by other admins, in which case we're nowhere, because we haven't '''''actually''''' banned them. Bottom line (to me), is that there's absolutely no harm in  community site banning an editor whose behavior is bad enough to warrant it, no downside to it at all, and (at least) a small upside. I'm not sure why you feel it's necessary to proselytize against it, when you could have simply skipped commenting in this discussion entirely, considering that a "Meh" !vote shouldn't really carry much weight.  If we're going to talk about being annoyed, I find your stance, and the need to promulgate it, kind of annoying as well, almost as much as Fastily's "Why not?" RfA !votes. I don't say that lightly, because I think you're quite a good and sensible admin, and I'd love to agree with whatever you do, but this little quirk of yours just irks me.  Sorry about that.  (I have little doubt that stuff I do -- or maybe '''''everything''''' I do? -- irks you as well.) [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 20:41, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::BTW, thanks for the two links above, which are useful. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 20:43, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Your being irked is noted.  The way this place works, I have no doubt that eventually there will be a vote here to prevent me from commenting on ban discussions because I'm not agreeing with everyone else.  Ruining the unanimity ruins much of the joy, I imagine. "Disruption" if I ever saw it. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 20:59, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::::Floquenbeam, I have never seen you being disruptive, and I never expect to see it. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 22:58, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as this user has been socking for a long time. —'''[[User:MRD2014|<span style="color:blue">MRD</span><span style="color:red">2014</span>]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:MRD2014|Talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contribs/MRD2014|Edits]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[WP:HELP|''Help!'']]</sup> 00:31, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' as a statement on these types of discussions generally. They're a waste of time. He's already indefinitely blocked, and no-one is going to unblock him anytime soon. He's effectively banned. Why are we spending time discussing this when there is no gain to banning him over the current situation? (Note that I've done a ''lot'' of the cleanup work on Orchomen stuff; I appreciate how annoying he is.) ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 00:47, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
:*Just repeating what I said above: one obvious gain is that right now to be unblocked, the editor simply has to convince '''''a single admin''''' that he's reformed, and he can be unblocked.  If he's banned by the community, that cannot happen, a community discussion is required for an unblock, or an ArbCom decision.  That is a '''''real''''' distinction. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:31, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per BYK  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 07:58, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom, and BYK. [[User:SophisticatedSwampert|Sophisticated<i>Swampert</i>]] [[User talk:SophisticatedSwampert|<sup><i>'''let's talk about that'''</i></sup>]] 15:22, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}
*{{re|Beyond My Ken}} If a single admin unblocks and refuses to reblock (won't happen), we could just ban him at that time. That's a real time save 99% of the time. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 05:58, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
:*Also a real hassle.  If a ban is justified then, it's justified now. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 15:39, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Inactive user 20171]] ==

Would an uninvolved admin be prepared to have a look at this case.  The sockpuppet master appears now to be on a bit of a spree [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saito_(Ghost_in_the_Shell)&diff=prev&oldid=796005022],[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Fictional_World_War_IV_veterans&diff=prev&oldid=796004995]. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Wee Curry Monster|W]][[Special:contributions/Wee Curry Monster|C]][[User talk:Wee Curry Monster|M]]</span><sub>[[Special:EmailUser/Wee Curry Monster|email]]</sub> 12:00, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

== Standard offer unblock appeal from [[User:Ayazf]] ==

From the user's talkpage:
<blockquote>"I have been blocked for about 2 years now and during this periods I have avoided to create a new account as I now perfectly well understand the policies and rules of Wikipedia. As I am very much interested to contribute in a meaningful manner and become a valued member of the Wikipedia community. I am thus requesting for the block to me removed. I promise not to violate the Wikipedia policies in future."</blockquote>
Checkuser shows some activity on the user's IP address in May; the subject matter edited did not fit with the user's usual editing topics and the useragent data was different. The last confirmed socking on articles was in November 2015, although this user did use their [[User:Shane Warner]] account to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Shane_Warner&diff=prev&oldid=793194958 post an unblock request] on July 31st. Bringing this here for the community to make a decision. [[User:Yunshui|Yunshui]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Yunshui|<sup style="font-size:90%">雲</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Yunshui|<sub style="font-size:90%">水</sub>]] 11:52, 8 August 2017 (UTC)<br>
'''Note''' [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ayazf&diff=794693471&oldid=794498297 This comment] on Ayazf's talkpage would seem to indicate that he was originally working in conjunction with or was being paid by [[User:Lonsafko]], which does not appear to have been disclosed at any point. [[User:Yunshui|Yunshui]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Yunshui|<sup style="font-size:90%">雲</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Yunshui|<sub style="font-size:90%">水</sub>]] 14:24, 9 August 2017 (UTC) 
:Is there a blocking discussion that can be posted? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 13:40, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{rto|Beyond My Ken}} [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ayazf/Archive]] appears to be the only example. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 13:42, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Cautious Support''': Because of previous socking problem user needs to be on a very tight leash with respect to editing with one account only.  Also noting promotional/paid editing issues in user's talkpage needs to be clearly laid out.  Return to previously problematic behavior [[WP:ROPE|should result]] in resumption of Indef Block. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 13:46, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I am concerned about the allegations of paid editing.  One of their socks created [[Lon Safko]], which indeed looks pretty promotional and under-referenced.  It survived an AfD as "no consensus" on the basis of a single comment other than the nominator's, which is hardly a rousing seal of approval. What does Ayazf have to say about paid editing, and what were their reasons for socking? What has changed in the intervening years that would assure the community that Ayazf's approach to editing has changed? I think we need more than the perfunctory statement above. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 14:02, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' I'd like to know exactly what "contribute in a meaningful manner" means. If this were a standard unblock request, I'd decline with the 'does not address reason for block' template. I'm not swaying either way right now but I want some more detail here. <span style="color: #9932CC">[[:User:KrakatoaKatie|Katie]]<sup>[[User talk:KrakatoaKatie|talk]]</sup></span> 17:12, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - Since they haven't socked for 2 years, I think that we can give them some [[WP:ROPE]]. If they do commit anything that got them blocked in the past though, then the indef block should immediately result in a return to the indef block. [[User:RileyBugz|<span style="color:#2D3D67;">RileyBugz</span>]][[User talk:RileyBugz|<sup style="color:#D7000B;">会話</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/RileyBugz|<sub style="color:#D7000B;">投稿記録</sub>]] 17:52, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:*Point of clarification: Yunshui can correct me if I'm wrong, but checkuser data is not routinely held on to long enough to determine that there's been no socking for two years.  What a checkuser can tell is if there's been socking for the length of time that data is held, whatever that is.  And, technically, there '''''has''''' been socking, since an alternate account was used to ask for an unblock, according to Yunshui's statement above. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
:*:IMO, requesting an unblock from a known sock, without denying that it is a sock, shouldn't count as socking. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 03:03, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
::::BMK is correct - to clarify, I ran CU checks on both the original account and on [[User:Shane Warner]], since both had edited recently enough to be checkable. All of the other accounts are stale. I found some additional IP edits that didn't match the user's usual activities or the useragent data of either active account. There have been no additions to the [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ayazf/Archive|SPI]] since November 2015. [[User:Yunshui|Yunshui]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Yunshui|<sup style="font-size:90%">雲</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/Yunshui|<sub style="font-size:90%">水</sub>]] 10:15, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' time served. [[User:D4iNa4|D4iNa4]] ([[User talk:D4iNa4|talk]]) 19:34, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
:*I '''''strongly''''' disagree.  "Time served" might be sufficient for having been blocked for, say, edit warring, but, in my opinion, it is '''''never''''' sufficient for having been blocked for sockpuppetry.  Experience indicates that those who have socked before are prone to do so again, and since uncovering socking is so much more difficult than determining edit warring or vandalism or other obvious behavioral problems, we really do need to have some assurance of a change in attitude before unblocking.  Simply having waited it out is not enough. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:31, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
::*'''Concur''' with above disagreement.  Sockpuppetry is bad enough, but the combination of sockpuppetry and paid editing is really rather unforgivable.  [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 04:38, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' The editor [[Draft:Lon Safko|started the draft]] on a [[Lon Safko|contentious subject]] (based on revision history) in March 2015. After the draft was rejected several times, the editor then created a second account in May, [[Facepalm|asked the same editor]] that the editor previously consulted for advice with the second account, [[Special:Diff/660933125|while pretending to be a different person]]. The draft was then re-created, and edited with both accounts simultaneously from May to August before the editor decided to blank the draft again. The third account then emerged in November 2015, and the editor bypassed the AfC process this time around and [[Special:Diff/689066229|created the article directly in mainspace]]. This is very troubling behaviour and serious [[WP:CIR|lack of competence]] at the same time. Without addressing the concerns specifically, the request should be declined in my opinion. [[User:Alex Shih|Alex Shih]][[User_talk:Alex Shih|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 01:30, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - The combination of paid editing and sockpuppetry just is the sort of thing that makes the [[WP:AGF|assumption of newly found good faith]] too much of a stretch, even two years later.  I just don't believe that leopards change their spots, or that paid editors who sock become constructive editors.  Don't give them the rope; they already hanged themselves.  [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 04:34, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' I am the editor whose comment seemingly led to the no consensus AfD result at [[Lon Safko]]. Despite that, the pattern of misbehavior that Ayazf showed previously, plus the weaknesses in the unblock request, concern me greatly. I am not convinced that this is a good idea. [[User:Cullen328|<b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328</sup>]] [[User talk:Cullen328|<span style="color:#00F">''Let's discuss it''</span>]] 05:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - Given the concerns expressed here, and the lack of additional statements from Ayazf, I have no other choice. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 13:08, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' largely per BMK. [[User:Blackmane|Blackmane]] ([[User talk:Blackmane|talk]]) 02:44, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per [[WP:ROPE]], with topic ban from [[Lon Safko]] and [[speech recognition]]. Two years free of socking (excepting two good faith mistakes) is plenty long enough to demonstrate willingness to abide by the rules, so let's see if they can do so in other topics. I don't see any indication of undisclosed ''paid'' editing. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] (<sup>[[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]</sub>) 20:29, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
:*Correction: 1 year and 9 months without socking (back to November 2015, per Yunshi above). And what about their still undisclosed paid editing? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:55, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Block of obvious sock needed ==

{{ipvandal|92.24.178.49}} is an obvious sock of [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Shingling334]] (see also [[User talk:Ponyo]]), operating on a well-known IP-range (TalkTalk, Ipswich, UK) and hitting the usual targets, claiming that just about everything is Turkish. So could we have a block, please? -&nbsp;'''Tom'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User:Thomas.W|Thomas.W]] [[User talk:Thomas.W|'''''<sup><small> talk</small></sup>''''']] 15:45, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{done}} by Black Kite. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 16:18, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== Appeal of community sanctions placed on [[User:Barts1a]] ==
{{archive-top|status=Site Ban Enacted|result=This user is indefinitely community banned from Wikipedia.  They may file an appeal in 6 months.—[[User:Cyberpower678|'''<span style="color:darkgrey;font-family:monospace">CYBERPOWER</span>''']] <span style="font-family:Rockwell">([[User talk:Cyberpower678|<span style="color:olive">Chat</span>]])</span> 12:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)}}
Hi,

For those of you that somehow don't know me, I am Twitbookspacetube A.K.A [[User:PantherLeapord]] A.K.A [[User:Barts1a]].

I recently followed the community's will from [[WP:ANI]] - specifically from [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=796775203#Blocked_in_violation_of_policy this thread] and the [[WP:SNOW]] consensus from [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=796775203#Proposal:_Kick_to_ArbCom_with_community_recommendation this subsection] and filed an arbcom case [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Winhunter_and_WP:ADMINACCT here].

As a result of following the wishes of the community, I have had [[User:Floquenbeam]] unilaterally extend a topic ban from my old account that has clearly become punative at this point to Arbcom - thus preventing me from filing further cases on behalf of the community.

As my editing restrictions had a provision for automatic restoral should and admin feel like doing so even if they are just having a bad day, I cannot do anything about this other than make this appeal against them.

I have, in the words of the same admin that is now imposing these punative sanctions against me, become an [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=795667147&oldid=795664513 "order of magnitude more productive an editor now than he was back then"].

Of course, people can change their minds, but I find this particular reversal of opinion rather hard to swallow. Mostly due to the fact that it comes in the wake of my respecting the community decision to attempt to bring accountability to the admin corps.

As such, I would like to formally appeal all community imposed restrictions on my previous account, however, I do NOT wish to appeal the BLP topic ban from AE as that one is outside the community's control and it is actually preventative due to recent actions.

The main reason I am filing this appeal is because, somehow, that admin considers arbcom to be a noticeboard. How, exactly, can arbcom be considered a noticeboard?

I would also like to add a clause that if this appeal is successful, any sanctions lifted as a result cannot be reimposed without community consensus as the automatic reinstatement provision has clearly been abused here. 

I would like to thank the community in advance for considering this appeal, whatever the outcome. [[User:Twitbookspacetube|Twitbook]][[User talk:Twitbookspacetube|space]][[Special:Contributions/Twitbookspacetube|tube]] 00:54, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:I don' think I'll have time to comment in detail until tomorrow but since TBST is not accurately summarizing the clear justification I left on his talk page, you might want to go to his talk page and take a look. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 01:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*I have an observation, from [[WP:CLEANSTART]]--"Any user in good standing who has no unexpired sanctions, and who is not being or about to be formally discussed for their conduct, may have a clean start." The arbs are discussing this shortly, no doubt. BTW, as a sidenote, ArbCom was discussing the Winhunter case but Twitbookspacecube beat us to it; I do not think that we'll decide to nix the case that they started based on the now reinstated topic ban, but that's just my guess. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 01:36, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' in the strongest possible terms, though slightly involved.  This editor should just be '''indeffed''' as an invalid clean-start account.  If I hadn't got into an editing tangle with him last week, I'd have done it myself, days ago.  As Drmies points out above, Barts1a has unexpired sanctions (search for Barts1a at [[WP:RESTRICT]]), making clean start not an option.  Further, while Twitbookspacetube has not exactly ''denied'' the connection between the accounts, he hasn't published it, either, and has used it to avoid the restrictions on his old account (a quick scout through his contributions finds he has violated his 1RR restriction three times this month, at [[Scrumpy]], [[2016 shooting of Philadelphia police officer]] and [[2017 Unite the Right rally]]).  Now that the connection has become more generally known (see Doug Weller's comment [[Special:Diff/795584417|here]]), and the restrictions have started to be applied, he shows up here to appeal them.  At arbiration, he is showing the same old drama-mongering attitude (see BU Rob13's summary in the last paragraph of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FCase&type=revision&diff=796643483&oldid=796629308 this], which seems to me a fair appraisal).  Floq's [[Special:Diff/796723965|notice]] re-imposing the lifted sanctions is detailed, accurate and fairly generous in its exceptions and is in no way an abuse of process.  It bears reading in full; TBST's summary of it above is cynically deceptive.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 08:35, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per my summary at ArbCom, linked by GoldenRing above. (Note that I am not a party in that case nor was I involved in any of the discussions preceeding it, though I've commented on the merits of the case.) The ArbCom filing was perhaps the most blatant drama-seeking I've seen on the project, and that's saying quite a bit. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 11:23, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
**{{re|Twitbookspacetube}} Can you link to your most recent successful appeal of that restriction from back in the day? ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 11:27, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
***Sure thing - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive239#Relaxation_of_restrictions_for_Barts1a here] you go! [[User:Twitbookspacetube|Twitbook]][[User talk:Twitbookspacetube|space]][[Special:Contributions/Twitbookspacetube|tube]] 12:03, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Totally oppose'''. Quite aside from GoldenRing's point about this being an invalid clean start done for the purpose of evading sanctions, TBST's continued presence—which appears to consist almost solely of wandering around other peoples' disputes stirring up shit—is so overwhelmingly negative I'd seriously consider indeffing TBST even if the accounts ''weren't'' related. (Just gonna put [https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Twitbookspacetube&project=en.wikipedia.org this] here.)&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 11:43, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Not only is this purely an attempt to [[WP:GAME]] Floquenbeam's recent reinstatement of a sanction, I recall [[WP:5THWHEEL]], which sees particularly apposite. In this case, an only minor rewording would give us "[[WP:WIKIPEDIAN|Wikipedia's community]] does not need you filing Arbcom cases on its behalf". '''Further''' re. {{u|Mrjulesd}}'s links below, I think I would see them as equally gaming- which is becoming something of an M.O. if hasdn't previously been- since although the message itself is phrased neutrally, the cherrypicking of respondants smacks of votestacking alright. In fact, for an editor who claims to be doing the community's bidding, there's a helluva lot of [[WP:IDHT|''not'' actually listening]] going on.  &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 12:41, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*They are now breaking [[WP:CANVAS]] and [[WP:VOTESTACK]] with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beyond_My_Ken&diff=prev&oldid=796850815], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fram&diff=prev&oldid=796850834], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Snow_Rise&diff=prev&oldid=796850864], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EEng&diff=prev&oldid=796850953], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:OhanaUnited&diff=prev&oldid=796850971], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Everyking&diff=prev&oldid=796851071], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Pldx1&diff=prev&oldid=796851091], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tarage&diff=prev&oldid=796851142], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bentogoa&diff=prev&oldid=796851226], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Joefromrandb&diff=prev&oldid=796851288], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cjhard&diff=prev&oldid=796851343], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Softlavender&diff=prev&oldid=796851358], presumably on basis of favorable past interactions. '''Support indefinite block''' as this is [[WP:DE|highly disruptive]] to the functioning of Wikipedia. Enough is enough. [[User:Mrjulesd|<span style="color:orange;">--Jules</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mrjulesd|(Mrjulesd)]] 12:50, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*<s>Comment</s> '''Oppose''': {{ec}} <s>I don't want to vote one way or another as I am not that familiar with the previous case, but I did want to point out a few things.</s> First, the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Twitbookspacetube&namespace=&tagfilter=&start=2017-08-23&end=2017-08-23 canvassing] appears to be problematic right off the start. Why would you not include Floquenbeam, who reinstated sanctions just ''yesterday''? Your centralized focus on [[WP:ANI]] (despite the community admonishing you for it previously), opening Arbcom cases prematurely where you were not asked to (lack of ''locus standi'', if you will), the aforementioned canvassing, and the creation of new accounts when not permitted all point to [[WP:NOTHERE]]. Honestly, I am surprised you have not been blocked. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 12:58, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
::Changed vote in light of [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Twitbookspacetube&diff=796853698&oldid=796850373 this] message. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 13:03, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''NOTE''': The OP is currently canvassing a bunch of people about this thread: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Twitbookspacetube]. -- [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 13:00, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
::[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=796853698&oldid=796850373&title=User:Twitbookspacetube ]? "A message for corrupt admins. Block me if you want, but sooner or later, you WILL receive justice for abusing your position of power.": It strikes me that their preferred place is Gotham City, rather than Wikipedia! &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 13:04, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Aaaand scene ....''': He just placed a polemic on his userpage: "'''[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Twitbookspacetube&diff=prev&oldid=796853762 A message for corrupt admins. Block me if you want, but sooner or later, you WILL receive justice for abusing your position of power.]'''"; and "'''[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Twitbookspacetube&diff=prev&oldid=796853762 You'll eventually face justice, corrupt admins]'''". '''Site ban''', anyone? [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 13:09, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:*'''Support''' That's quite enough, and I can think of about 40 things I could have probably better spent the time on rather than looking through this cesspool of a history. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|<span style="color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;">Timothy</span><span style="color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;">Joseph</span><span style="color:#422501;font-family:Impact;">Wood</span>]] 13:13, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
::: [[User:Timothyjosephwood|TJW]], you need to specify what you are supporting; otherwise it looks like you are supporting the OP's request. [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 13:15, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:::: I was referring to a ban, which seems to be the only outstanding issue, since a block is now a forgone conclusion. If there is any evidence that this user has been anything other than an obscene amount of net negative, feel free to link, but I'm not seeing it. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|<span style="color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;">Timothy</span><span style="color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;">Joseph</span><span style="color:#422501;font-family:Impact;">Wood</span>]] 13:20, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:::*'''Comment'''  Most of the time, "I support the oppose side" is formulated as oppose, rather than as support. [[User:Pldx1|Pldx1]] ([[User talk:Pldx1|talk]]) 14:41, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::I figured the indent made it fairly clear I was replying to SL. Apparently I was mistaken. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|<span style="color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;">Timothy</span><span style="color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;">Joseph</span><span style="color:#422501;font-family:Impact;">Wood</span>]] 21:17, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
{{od}} I've given them the indefinite block that they were surely heading to. The last comment was honestly the icing on the cake, however it'sclear from the start this was a bad-faith clean start account and the drama-stirring at both ArbCom and ANI shows that the project is better off as a whole without this person editing. If I'm to receive justice, so be it. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 13:18, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*Well that didn't work, did it.  By reinstating the restrictions instead of supporting earlier suggestions of a block, I was honestly trying to come up with a better solution for WP and for TBST. I guess it didn't take.  Sorry to everyone who's time was wasted. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 13:34, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{reply|Floquenbeam}} It was ''their'' personal actions- and perhaps more to the point, ''re''actions- that led directly to this situation, not yours. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 13:47, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

:::Yes, well said.  Sometimes you need to go through the motions.  Would blocking them earlier have saved drama?  Probably not &mdash; it would have just transferred the drama to appeals.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 16:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Hell no''' not that it matters. --[[User:Tarage|Tarage]] ([[User talk:Tarage|talk]]) 18:20, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - Lifting of sanctions, given the editor's deceptive actions, such as the false clean start. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 18:45, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

===Propose site ban===

So not only is he going on diatribes, but he lied. This topic ban was previously reinstated in October 2012. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Barts1a&oldid=516385143] This was after the most recent appeal he linked above. He's been violating this restriction flagrantly since he returned to the site with his "clean start". Let's wrap this up. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 14:10, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom ''and'' per 'the community' not getting bullshitted any longer by a generally negative influence. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 14:15, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' He's been indeffed by {{u|RickinBaltimore}} per NOTHERE, but I think formalizing it as a community site ban makes sense given the bad clean start and other actions above. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 14:16, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' The mess in the above section is enough to solidify this for me. I propose that is be applicable to his other known accounts [[User:PantherLeapord|PantherLeapord]] and [[User:Barts1a|Barts1a]] to leave no stone unturned. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 14:18, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*I think I'm going to go against the emerging consensus and oppose that at this time, although the difference between an indefinite block and a site-ban in this case is (as usual) wafer-thin anyway. This situation escalated far more quickly than I anticipated, and this morning, I was thinking through some comments I was going to make in response to the original post above, when I saw that the editor had been indeffed in the meantime. Despite all his flaws, I can understand why Twitbookfromspace might actually have believed his two recent requests for arbitration were appropriate. Both arose from lengthy discussions on ANI that each concluded with a broad community consensus of "someone needs to bring this to ArbCom," and each time, he posted to the effect that "I'll go ahead and file the ArbCom case if no one else does," and no one suggested that he shouldn't or that someone else should instead. Of course, that doesn't mean he was the ideal person to file the cases; he obviously wasn't, even apart from the issue of any old editing restrictions. His filings were not well constructed, and his overeagerness to file future cases was too palpable, and his last posts were far too aggressive. (As a more general statement, no one should aspire to a "prosecutor-general" function on Wikipedia; there is no such role, and there shouldn't be. The last editor who did that sort of thing well was [[User:Thatcher|Thatcher]], and that was almost a decade ago now.) And I haven't forgotten that this editor's mainspace editing wasn't always sound either. But I had hoped it might be possible to find a more nuanced solution here. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 14:24, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
{{cot|BMK and NE Ent channeling [[Statler and Waldorf]]}}
:*{{ping|Newyorkbrad}} "Self-appointed ombudsman" is a role that's closely related to "prosecutor general", and I think it's fair to say the [[User:NE Ent]] took on that task. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 18:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
::* Probably not (fair to say), but I'm pretty sure it's not relevant to the discussion at hand. <small>[[User talk:NE Ent|NE Ent]]</small> 02:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
{{cob}}
*'''Support''' - The taunting about a campaign against corrupt admins is an indication that we don't need any of this editor's footwear.  [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 14:31, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

*Silly me for assuming that [[WP:RESTRICT]] was accurate. I was actually almost ready to oppose a site ban here, thinking along the same lines as Brad. Some editors seem to think that Twitbookspacetube is considerably more productive than Barts1a was and I was going to suggest that we give them a chance to return to the Barts1a account with the restrictions in place. I can sort of see Brad's point about the arb filings, but that misses the fact that ''any'' participation at AN/I was in violation of a ban and he was using a "clean start" account to evade that ban.  I think the fact that all the drama they've caused at arb and noticeboards is in violation of an existing restriction tips me over the edge into '''support''' for a site ban (which will of course cover other accounts). [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 14:31, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
**{{ping|GoldenRing}}Clarification: I can't bring myself to support a siteban, but because of the sheer quantity of bad faith they showed me above, I'm annoyed and no longer really care what happens to them, so won't oppose one either. But, just because I might be responsible for your confusion, I should point out the ANI/ArbCom stuff was '''not''' against existing restrictions ''at the time''; those particular restrictions had been lifted a while ago, and I just reimposed them yesterday ''in response'' to the ANI and ArbCom (and AE, and other) stuff. The explanation at [[WP:Editing restrictions]] was unclear when I got there, and maybe I left it unclear when I changed it yesterday. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 14:40, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
***{{re|Floquenbeam}} As far as I can tell, the restrictions were successfully appealed in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive239#Relaxation_of_restrictions_for_Barts1a September 2012] and then reimposed by an uninvolved admin [[Special:Permalink/516385143|only a month later]].  Nick-D just forgot to update the central restrictions log.  The participation at AN/I and arb was therefore in violation of an in-place restriction.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 14:59, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
****Ah. You're right, now I understand. Thanks for the link (if I missed it somewhere above, thanks for the link ''again''). --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 15:02, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*****Damn [[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]], I'm [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=516385143 in there too]! I'm starting to feel like some ring bearer, like butter spread over too many pieces of bread. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 16:36, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I think the blatant canvassing pushed this one over the edge, as well as the threats to admins. Throw in the violations of clean start (in effect this makes this a sock violation), edit-warring and general [[WP:NOTHERE]] contributions and polemics. Appeals per [[WP:STANDARDOFFER]]. [[User:Mrjulesd|<span style="color:orange;">--Jules</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mrjulesd|(Mrjulesd)]] 15:51, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - <s>respectfully, </s>I'm ''entirely'' uncomfortable with all of this. Sanctions being lifted then reimposed unilaterally, failing to be logged, being reimposed unilaterally again, a ban from "contentious articles" - what the hell is that? How could any editor intend to game such restrictions if they or anyone isn't even clear on what they are? And in particular I'm uncomfortable with the appearance here of a group of administrators digging up dirt on a user who dared to suggest that administrators should be accountable to the community. While TBST's behaviour ''today'' has been deplorable and certainly deserving of a block, the surrounding circumstances are pretty darn ugly. [[WP:ADMINACCT]] grants editors generous latitude to question and criticize administrators' actions; what we're doing here is wiping our asses with that convention. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] (<sup>[[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]</sub>) 16:25, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
**I'd hate to see what this would look like if it wasn't "respectfully" made. "''a group of administrators digging up dirt on a user who dared to suggest that administrators should be accountable to the community''"? "''what we're doing here is wiping our asses with that convention''"?  You know, if you don't know what my motivations are, or what the history behind all this is, you could ask me, instead of assume the worst possible motivation. To date, we have 7 supports (5 non-admin, 2 admin), 2 opposes (both admin), 1 neutral (admin, me).  Somehow this becomes "a group of administrators digging up dirt on a user who dared to suggest that administrators should be accountable to the community".  Enjoy the rest of this thread, people, I'm out. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 16:35, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Corrected. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] (<sup>[[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]</sub>) 16:45, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Note''': User has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABarts1a&type=revision&diff=796859727&oldid=749783976 already made use] of his alternate account, [[User talk:Barts1a|Barts1a]]. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 16:43, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
::Uh uh, I saw that and was going to 'rv sock', but I see {{u|Favonian}} has already commented. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 17:05, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' This is a waste of time and I am absolutely confused as to why he thought his canvasing of me would result in anything favorable for him. --[[User:Tarage|Tarage]] ([[User talk:Tarage|talk]]) 18:20, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - I'm as perplexed as Tarage is to have been canvassed by TBST, but in any event their actions have been extremely [[WP:NOTHERE]] for a while now. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 18:45, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:*I think I have a handle on TBST's reasoning, given his recent comments on his talk and user pages:
::#TBST sees his actions as an attempt to alleviate the problem of "corrupt" admins, in particular Winhunter
::#So when Floquenbeam re-imposes his sanction on him (which it turns out had been re-imposed earlier, but not logged), he sees this as an action by an admin to protect a corrupt admin
::#I expressed a "support" comment in the discussion of whether Winhunter should turn in his bit, therefore TBST sees me as an ally in his campaign against corrupt admins
::#And that is why he canvassed me to this discussion.
::Unfortunately for him, I do not share his broad concerns about "corrupt admins".  Yes, I thought, and still think, that Winhunter should be desysopped, and yes, I think it's a problem that admins who were minted many years ago come out of the woodwork after a long hiatus and start to operate again without familiarizing themselves with how things have changed in the meantime.  I do support a community desysop procedure, but one that is fair to the admin in question and can't be used to railroad admins who have become unpopular with people they have appropriately sanctioned, and I'm in favor of requiring re-sysopping after a set period of time, but, again, with a procedure that is fair to the admin, and can't be used to get back at them (I've thought that a 33% support vote on a statutory re-sysopping would be a reasonable bar to pass). But '''''none''''' of that means that I support a witch-hunt against "corrupt" admins, just the case-by-case handling of each unique situation as called for by the circumstances. I think that TBST, with his own preconceptions and prejudices, misinterpreted my position and thought I would support the lifting of his sanction, which I didn't, and don't.  I'm on record as saying that our admin corps overall does very well at a pretty thankless job, one that I would never want to have. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 20:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Agreed.  The Arthur Rubin case is clear cut, AFAICT, and Winhunter at least has a case to answer (I've not looked into it in a lot of detail to form an opinion on the merits of that case).  But this is not just someone who brought cases to arbitration against two admins; this is someone who brought cases to arbitration in which he had no involvement, as part of a crusade against the admin corps, in violation of a ban which he was socking to avoid.  I'm frankly not seeing a good way back for him.  I won't say never, but it's going to be a long, hard road for him to regain trust.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 08:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' site ban. I had noticed TBST surface on ANI recently and a lot of their tone was very reminiscent of someone familiar. That it turned out to be Barts1a explained a lot. Their antics were basically pouring gasoline on the fire more than anything else. ANI/AN/AE does not need more fuel. [[User:Blackmane|Blackmane]] ([[User talk:Blackmane|talk]]) 03:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' a site ban. It is the most serious punishment we can mete out, and I do not see why we'd have to go this far. We are obviously not dealing with a vandal or a troll--we are dealing with an editor who is, well, making troubling edits or whatever. There is something of a difference--coming back from an indef-block is much, much easier than coming back from a ban, and I think that is important. Mind you, I am not happy at all by Twitbook's recent edits, but they didn't ''intend'' to mess up Wikipedia, I am sure. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:10, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Comment:''' For the record, Twitbook also invited me to this discussion, as they apparently did with a number of other editors.  However, while that very well might entail canvassing in some of the other cases, it was arguably a fair-play request from me, insfoar as I initiated the proposal upon which they acted. 

:I can't comment as to Twitbooks other activities in dispute/admin watchdog activism as I am unfamiliar with their history in this area.  Twitbook did express a willingness to act upon the proposal and make the ArbCom filing against Winhunter, regardless of how much support said proposal got at ANI; I did get a little bit of the sense of the gung-ho attitude with regard to "keeping the admins in line" (my paraphrasing, not Twitbook's).  But being unaware that the Arbs were already looking into the situation, I was still happy to see someone take the matter to them, because I thought that they (ArbCom) should be brought into the matter in a timely fashion.  I'll admit, when I saw the filing, I was second-guessing dropping the matter into Twitbook's hands, as I didn't feel the filing was approached in the most ideal manner; I had concerns about the organization, depth, and general emphasis of their approach, but mostly I was concerned about the comment generalizing the issue (which as I saw it, and as the proposal was phrased, was about one particularly problematic admin) to "sending a message" to a supposed class of admins. {{pb}}All of that said, I'm inclined to agree with Drmies here: this is not really a siteban matter, surely.  Again, I have not seen the entire history here (which is why I am not making a firm !vote), but have seen enough to have a sense of how consistent this drumbeat could be with Twitbook.  So if the community feels an indef is in order to forestall further disruption while these issues are addressed with the user (even if it takes a long time--and frankly it ought to be approached slowly if the accusations of gaming and sanction evasion here are accurate) then by all means, I'm not going to second guess those who have the time to look deeper into these behaviours right now.  But I will also say that the sense I got from Twitbook (even though I disagree with them on how big and frequent a problem admin abuse is) was that they were operating from a basis of a concerned member of the community.  And if the user has tried the patience of the community again, they do seem to be making an effort.  Let's block for now, stabilize the situation and give them another chance when concerns have been addressed. Even if AGF has been stretched pretty far for some members of the community, there isn't really hostility or effort at disruption here-- not that I've seen, anyway. [[User:Snow Rise|'''''<span style="color:#19a0fd;">S</span><span style="color:#66c0fd;">n</span><span style="color:#99d5fe;">o</span><span style="color:#b2dffe;">w</span>''''']] [[User talk:Snow Rise|<sup><b style="color:#d4143a;">''let's rap''</b></sup>]] 04:26, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::Oh, yikes; I had missed the "face justice" comments.  I'm still on the fence, but that's pretty battlefield/polemic/histrionic/arguably indicative of basic competency and perspective issues.  [[User:Snow Rise|'''''<span style="color:#19a0fd;">S</span><span style="color:#66c0fd;">n</span><span style="color:#99d5fe;">o</span><span style="color:#b2dffe;">w</span>''''']] [[User talk:Snow Rise|<sup><b style="color:#d4143a;">''let's rap''</b></sup>]] 04:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::I blanked that statement as a blatant violation of [[WP:POLEMIC]] in case anyone is wondering. [[User:Blackmane|Blackmane]] ([[User talk:Blackmane|talk]]) 05:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

*'''Support''' as nom. I just want to be clear that the thing that pushes me over the edge to site ban territory is that this editor shouldn't have been editing at ANI, ArbCom, etc. at all in the first place. They had an active restriction ''the whole time'' which an admin had forgotten to properly document at [[WP:Editing restrictions]]. This is the whole reason they abandoned the {{U|Barts1a}} account, so I do not believe they forgot this. They came back and ignored their old restriction to resume disruptive behaviors almost exclusively. When an editor reimposed the restriction a second time, not realizing it had been active all along, they came here and lied to the community at large by omitting the fact that the restriction was always active. This is rather serious sockpuppetry, and the lies make it impossible to trust this editor if/when they say they've "reformed" and want to return. The community should be making the decision about whether we actually believe the editor's future claims of reform after he lied to us repeatedly, not an individual admin. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 05:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:*Well said. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:31, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:*Rob, a lot of what you say here makes sense, but I'd like to put forward another aspect: what is to be gained by each of the comparative approaches, knowing what we know?  If you are correct in defining TBST's behaviour as blatant socking, then sitebanning them could eventually result in their moving to another name, if they decide to invest time and/or resources into overcoming the technical hurdles.  Don't you expect that they will return, at the latest, the next time they get a new internet connection?  Whereas if we indef this particular user, I suspect they will be (at least marginally) more likely to sit things out until we can address their serious over-zealousness.  For all their faults, they seem to have an investment in their identity in the community.  If the choices are between possibly locking the user into a cycle of hide and seek with the community or perhaps giving them a path towards (eventual) productive facility, I think I favour the latter as a purely pragmatic matter.  Yes, this could be a classic case of [[WP:NOTHERE]] (there are, afterall, ample indications), and we should just practice [[WP:DENY]], create another mental heuristic to identify a recurrent problem editor, and whack-a-mole this user as best we could.  But what do we really lose by trying an approach that maximizes our ability to keep an eye on them, with no immediate threat of their damaging the project (unless of course they just sock; but if they do it under those circumstances, they were going to do it regardless)?.  [[User:Snow Rise|'''''<span style="color:#19a0fd;">S</span><span style="color:#66c0fd;">n</span><span style="color:#99d5fe;">o</span><span style="color:#b2dffe;">w</span>''''']] [[User talk:Snow Rise|<sup><b style="color:#d4143a;">''let's rap''</b></sup>]] 07:01, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::*Given the existing deception, I doubt that anything we do will stop socking other than the IP autoblock, etc. It won't be hard to catch, though, because their disruptive behavior at noticeboards/ArbCom is particularly visible in an area where everyone around for this thread will see it. I don't think we should lower restrictions purely because we believe the editor will ignore them; if he's so far gone that he would ignore a site ban, then he'll not suddenly become a productive editor in the future. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 12:18, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Since canvassing was done, I'd like to ping someone that was left out of the canvassing: {{U|Darkknight2149}}. -- [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 07:11, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' largely per {{u|Drmies}}. This is a "weak" oppose, because I find the deception and lying particularly objectionable. I think an indef block on the 3 accounts would suffice for now, and a siteban is just a step too far at this point. It wouldn't take much more similar behaviour from Barts to convince me otherwise, though. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> [[User talk:Begoon|Begoon]]</span> 07:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. The repeated and rampant deception, the trolling, the gasoline-pouring, the repeated campaign against admins including two sanctimonious RFARs, culminating in two major userpage polemics, and then finally the use of one of his so-called inactive accounts to post yet another major polemic today [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABarts1a&type=revision&diff=796859727&oldid=749783976], all adds up to a very clear [[WP:NOTHERE]]. I don't think there's any point in the community wasting any more time on this user, even if one happens to have agreed with any of his posts in the past. [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 08:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Frankly if we site-banned everyone who was deceptive, we would have a significantly smaller editor and admin pool. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 12:30, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
{{archive-bottom}}

{{Clear}}

== Ban of sockpuppet [[User:Vote (X) for Change]] ==
{{resolved|The original admin is usually the best source for an answer and solution.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 19:47, 22 August 2017 (UTC)}}
I am not contesting the ban, but it seems that, despite the ban having been issued all the way back in 2011, in the last few weeks the effect of the ban seems to have been to block out the entire [[British Library]]. Since I do most of my research there, that is a pain. Is it possible to get the British Library unblocked? <b>[[User:Serendipodous|<span style="color:#0000bb;">Serendi</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Serendipodous|<sup style="color:#bb0000;">pod</sup>]][[User talk: Serendipodous|<span style="color:#0000bb;">ous</span>]]</b> 13:12, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
*First, it helps if you have some idea of the IP range you are talking about.  Next, it shouldn't block you from editing if you are logged in, unless the setting are extra harsh.  Do you know who did the block for that range?  We generally like to get the admin responsible in the loop, for they may have reasons that we aren't aware of.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 15:46, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
** Another option might be to contact the administration at the British Library, ask them if they can determine which of their users was using the IPs in question when they were last blocked, and then ask them to ban that person from their site, since they are probably violating their terms of service by using their machines for gaining illicit access here. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 15:53, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
::* Hm I remember being autoblocked at the British Library. After which someone told me the British Library rangeblock was switched from hardblock to softblock (i.e. logged in editors can edit). This was in 2015/16, has someone changed the block for it since? [[User:Joseph2302|<b style="color:#CCCC00">Joseph</b>]][[User talk:Joseph2302|<b style="color:#00FF00">2302</b>]] ([[User talk:Joseph2302|talk)]] 17:10, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
::* (An) IP range for British Library is 127.0.0.1 . [[User:Joseph2302|<b style="color:#CCCC00">Joseph</b>]][[User talk:Joseph2302|<b style="color:#00FF00">2302</b>]] ([[User talk:Joseph2302|talk)]] 17:12, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Uh, that's a localhost IP, EVERYONE has a 127.0.0.1 IP (after all there's no place like 127.0.0.1) [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 17:13, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Woops. {{U|RickinBaltimore}} 194.66.226.95 was the British Library IP I was autoblocked at. [[User:Joseph2302|<b style="color:#CCCC00">Joseph</b>]][[User talk:Joseph2302|<b style="color:#00FF00">2302</b>]] ([[User talk:Joseph2302|talk)]] 18:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
::* Pinging {{ping|Future Perfect at Sunrise}} who converted this to a hardblock on 5 August 2017. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=User%3A194.66.226.95&type=block Log] &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Train2104|Train2104]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Train2104|t]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Train2104|c]]) 19:04, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
::: Ah, that IP. Okay, I've reset it to a soft block. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

== Blue Whale ==

[[User:Ayesha parvin]] has been making some disturbing comments on  [[Talk: Blue Whale (game)]]. I'm wondering if there's any need to do a geolocate and notify law enforcement, or if we should just assume it's trolling and ignore it. [[User:FiredanceThroughTheNight|FiredanceThroughTheNight]] ([[User talk:FiredanceThroughTheNight|talk]]) 04:49, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

:Are you sure you've got the right user? I can't see why anyone would want to notify law enforcement over [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABlue_Whale_%28game%29&type=revision&diff=796395642&oldid=796350104 this]. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 06:35, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
: It took me a while to see, too. You need to read the article, or at least some of it. Email to emergency@wikimedia.org would probably be the right response - I don't have access to my email today so can't do it. [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 07:34, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

== Kostas20142 appointed trainee clerk ==

The arbitration clerks are pleased to welcome {{user|Kostas20142}} to the clerk team as a trainee!

The arbitration clerk team is often in need of new members, and any editor who would like to join the clerk team is welcome to apply by e-mail to {{email|clerks-l|lists.wikimedia.org}}.

For the Arbitration Committee, '''[[User:L235|Kevin]]''' (<small>aka</small> [[User:L235|L235]]&nbsp;'''·'''&#32; [[User talk:L235#top|t]]&nbsp;'''·'''&#32; [[Special:Contribs/L235|c]]) 23:15, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

: Discuss this at: '''[[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Kostas20142 appointed trainee clerk]]'''

{{Clear}}
== Page move ==
{{archive top
| result = Re-closing previous inappropriate withdrawal. Interested parties are invited to visit [[Talk:Jake_Zyrus#Requested move 26 August 2017]] for the current discussion in regards to the move. [[User:Alex Shih|Alex Shih]][[User_talk:Alex Shih|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 07:15, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
}}
Hi, Could someone move [[Jake Zyrus]] back to [[Charice Pempengco]] please?,<br>
An editor had got this article moved via RM (Uncontroversial) without any consensus - As I cannot move it I'm assuming it's move-protected so the editor who requested this to be moved has essentially bypassed the move-protection,<br>
Upon going back to RM to have it moved back {{u|Anthony Appleyard}} declined it and has since set up an RFC instead however shouldn't the article be moved back ''and then'' an RFC should start as as I said there was no consensus in the first place for the move?,<br>
Thanks, –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 17:14, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
*{{ping|Davey2010}} There seems to be a strong atmosphere of controversy here; we better start discussing the page move now, and not get tangled in "talks about talks". [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 17:24, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Exactly which is why '''you''' should've declined the request and started an RFC to begin with, As I said on your very talkpage the onus isn't on me to discuss anything because I'm not the one who moved it in the first place - You can't move something without consensus and then expect someone else to ''start'' the consensus ... The onus in on the person (Rav in this case) who requested the move in the first place. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 17:29, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
:Hi! I put in the original move request. Before doing so I started a talk page discussion and left it up for several days about how the article should refer to it's subject. Everyone who participated was for the subject being referred to as Jake Zyrus, so the move seemed uncontroversial. Beyond that, [[WP:NAMECHANGES]] seems to give clear reason that the article should be titled Jake Zyrus as well. [[User:Rab V|Rab V]] ([[User talk:Rab V|talk]]) 18:27, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
::You should've started a proper RFC as I and a good hundred of other editors had no idea there was ever a discussion occurring, Consensus should've been sought from a wide range of editors not just a few, IMHO this article should still be moved back and a proper RFC started as the one present (by me apparently) is simply hopeless and is rather confusing, Thanks, –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 18:47, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
:::RFC guidelines state that we should try discuss and see if we can come to a consensus before starting a new RFC, which is what I was doing. No one was popping up who disagreed but it's not a big deal to just start an RFC if now consensus can't be made. [[User:Rab V|Rab V]] ([[User talk:Rab V|talk]]) 19:07, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
::::They do however without sounding funny it was obvious this sort of thing was going to need a bigger discussion, Don't get me wrong I appreciate you going to the talkpage first however IMHO it should've been an RFC considering this was moved back and fourth plenty of times before, Consensus should've been made ''before'' the move not after. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 19:19, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
:I don't think it is necessary to move the page back before the RfC. It won't hurt anyone for it to be under the WRONG TITLE for the duration of the RfC, the move button will still be there afterwards. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]], [[Special:CentralAuth/Jo-Jo Eumerus|contributions]]) 19:56, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

*Usually I don't comment post-close but I'll make an exception here - First off I apologise for getting so riled up over it - The title wasn't an issue for me not in the slightest - The issue for me atleast was the consensus (or lack of) that's pretty much it .... In my eyes there was no consensus (ofcourse I may or may not be wrong on that I'd rather not hash that out) however all that aside I do apologise for going off the deep end over essentially minor issue, This place is a learning curve for us all myself included - I could've and should've handled things better but new day & all that but anyway simply wanted to apologise, Thanks, –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 11:51, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

{{Clear}}
== [[Trey Sartorius]] and Various Forms of His Name ==
{{atop|<small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> Page deleted and salted. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 07:39, 27 August 2017 (UTC)}}
There are repeated attempts, I think largely [[WP:AGF|good-faith]], to create an article on [[Trey Sartorius]].  It appears that his name is [[WP:SALT|create-protected]].  As a result, there are repeated attempts to use some other form of the name, such as [[TreySartorius]] or [[Sartorius Trey]].  However, there doesn't seem to have been a deletion discussion, so that the repeated attempts to [[WP:GAME|game]] the create-protection cannot just be tagged as [[WP:G4|G4]].  Can we either please have a real deletion discussion, which will either wind up with an AFD closed as delete (which supports G4), or an AFD closed as Keep (which provides the article on the boy), or can at least someone give guidance to the poor puzzled New Page Patrollers on what to do with the attempts to create an article on the boy?  [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 02:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
:[[WP:A7|A7]] seems to have been working quite well so far. There ''is'' the [[Draft:Trey Sartorius|draft version]], but that's not really doing too hot at the moment either.
:Also, for what it's worth, there are four different titles ([[SartoriusTrey|1]], [[Trey sartorius|2]], [[Trey Sartorius|3]], [[TreySartorius|4]]) which have previously been A7'd, with 2 and 3 salted. I really don't think we need an AFD just to figure out that a six-times deleted article needs further deletion. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 02:11, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
::There [[:Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Trey Sartorius|appears to be a ssockfarm]] here. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 04:45, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
:Page deleted and salted. This could be seen as G5 as well as there is quiet a sockfarm dedicated to getting him on Wikipedia. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 10:28, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
== Your opinion ==
{{atop|<small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> Drmies opens a can of worms because of "some old guy sing[ing] a country song on TV", but the community manages to sort it out anyway. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 07:41, 27 August 2017 (UTC)}}
It's getting late here, and I'm watching some old guy sing a country song on TV so I'm going to log off. But I'd like it if some of you would look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hamilton_High_School_(Chandler,_Arizona)&diff=796960174&oldid=796959818 this] here--I do not believe there's a direct BLP problem here (although some of the text is tendentious), but I can see why two or three editors have reverted this. By the same token, there's coverage of what appears to be a really serious affair, and there may be enough coverage to overcome our usual hesitation in having allegations in the article. Thanks. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:26, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:Bloody hell, that Controversy section was as long as the whole article. [[User:Blackmane|Blackmane]] ([[User talk:Blackmane|talk]]) 03:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::Well this is a result of the 'All schools are notable' crap that has held sway until relatively recently. When every high school has an article, regardless of the lack of any information or other notable events, and something big(ish) *does* happen, it comes to dominate the article. You cant argue undue weight when there is nothing else of importance about the place. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 09:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::I've trimmed it down somewhat and tried to make it relatively BLP compliant.  I'm still a bit uncomfortable with some of the sourcing; input from others would be valued as I'm not familiar with any of the likely sources for this article.  I suspect having this article on the watchlists of some experienced editors over the coming months might be advisable.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 09:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::::The point is that we need to start enforcing [[WP:BLPPRIMARY]] rather than tolerating news reports.  These kids never heard of the Peloponnesian War (they don't even argue that it was fought by sword-wielding skeletons); why do we even care when they say that news reports are secondary sources in history?  Instead, we let this fringe theory triumph over the definitions used by professionals, by which a news report about current events is considered a primary source.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 11:43, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Spoken like a true librarian/historian/Calvinist, [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]]. Try your hand at Freshman comp next semester and see how you like that. (BTW I almost completely agree.) [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 16:50, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::I would say a bit in response if I could distinguish between what you've said on-wiki and what I remember from the email exchange a few months ago, after I sent you that Census Bureau document; no accidental WP:OUTING from me if I can help it :-)  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 17:42, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
== Need Help to "Move" (Rename) Page "[[Major And The Monbacks]]" to "[[Super Doppler]]" ==
{{Archive top|Done [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 02:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)}}
The band Major and the Monbacks officially changed their band name to "Super Doppler" on June 7, 2017 via a Facebook post from their official band facebook page <ref>{{cite web|last1=Super Doppler|url=https://www.facebook.com/superdopplerband/posts/10155554351199604|website=Facebook|publisher=Facebook|accessdate=23 August 2017 |no-tracking=yes}}</ref>. I would like to change the wikipedia page name to "Super Doppler" but do not have access to "Move" (rename) the page from my account. Currently, the wikipedia page titled "Major and the Monbacks" is affecting the SEO and searchability of the new band name and a google search of "Super Doppler" automatically links to the Major and the Monbacks name. The page needs to be changed so that it reflects the new band name.

The band released their new record 'Moonlight Anthems' on June 16, 2017 under the new name Super Doppler before embarking on a US Tour. 
<ref>{{cite web|last1=Nicholson|first1=David|title=Major and the Monbacks slap a new name on their familiar sound|url=https://pilotonline.com/entertainment/music/major-and-the-monbacks-slap-a-new-name-on-their/article_bbf8545b-cda3-5ba9-a236-c53ba31c2a1d.html|website=The Virginian-Pilot|publisher=The Virginian-Pilot|accessdate=23 August 2017}}</ref> <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Cbfriedman757|Cbfriedman757]] ([[User talk:Cbfriedman757#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Cbfriedman757|contribs]]) 14:45, 23 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
:{{done}}, although that article could use some TLC. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 14:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
{{reftalk}}
{{Archive bottom}}

== Paid editing sockfarms proliferating ==

Over at [[WP:COIN]], there have been an unusually large number of paid editing sockfarms lately. These are all in the last three weeks:
* [[Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Another_sockfarm]] -
* [[Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Undisclosed_paid_editing_sockfarm]]
* [[Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Four_new_sock_farms]]
* [[Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Another_day.2C_another_sockfarm]]
* [[Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Two_dozen_new_socks_in_OfficialPankajPatidar_sockfarm]].

These are being cleaned up routinely, with sockpuppet investigations and speedy deletions. It's getting wearing, though, due to sheer volume. 
We're talking about hundreds of accounts and articles.  There seems to be a new strategy for evading Wikipedia's usual defenses. It works like this.

* Ad appears on [[Upwork]] for paid editing.[https://www.upwork.com/mobile/jobs?query=wikipedia%20editing]
* A group of new Wikipedia accounts is created.
* For each new account, a few trivial edits are made to get autoconfirmed.
* The accounts are used to create paid articles.  Multiple accounts sometimes cross-edit multiple articles.
* The accounts are abandoned.

Because the accounts are thrown away, Wikipedia's usual procedures for dealing with editor behavior are ineffective. These accounts almost never write on talk pages, and don't become involved in dispute resolution. They just come in, do their paid job, and leave. Blocks are useless.  In some cases, the accounts are seen being used from a variety of IP addresses across considerable distances, which makes the usual sockpuppet checks ineffective. The consistent pattern is a little closed world of accounts and articles with edits staying within that world.  Looking at one editor or one article doesn't reveal this. We may need some new editing graph tool to pick up that pattern. Admin {{user|Smartse}} has been finding many of these, but some have to be slipping through. 

It's a bulk business. We can tell from the ads on Upwork how little this is paying.  It's about quantity, not quality. It's wearing down the volunteer editors. Any ideas?  [[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 19:40, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:The WMF should get involved to develop a machine learning solution. Machine learning can examine links across accounts and articles that editors would never even think to look for (word pattern, etc). If we could convince the powers that be to allow CheckUser data to be an input for a machine learning algorithm, I suspect the accuracy would be rather high. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 21:20, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
::I agree—machine learning would be a great tool for this kind of thing. [[User:RileyBugz|<span style="color:#2D3D67;">RileyBugz</span>]][[User talk:RileyBugz|<sup style="color:#D7000B;">会話</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/RileyBugz|<sub style="color:#D7000B;">投稿記録</sub>]] 22:06, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
:::An automated system would be nice, but that may take a while. Any ideas on how to slow down the flood? Is there some way all these SPAs can be forced to go through Articles for Creation instead of creating their own articles? Maybe require extended autoconfirm before allowing article creation? I know, it's yet another step back from "the encyclopedia anyone can edit". But we're faced with a new form of spamming which works. [[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 05:10, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Well, let's try requiring just autoconfirmed for article creation first. ACTRIAL is happening soon, as soon as the WMF is ready for it. They recently hired for a contract position to manage it and do assessment, I think. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 10:38, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::That will help, once it's in place.  Thanks. [[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 18:01, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
::::As far as I know, any new article created direct is set to "noindex" until a new page patroller reviews it, or (I think) a month elapses - maybe seriously extend that time, so the articles can be there but just not indexed until properly reviewed? [[User:Ronhjones|<b style="border:1px solid #dfdfdf;color:green; padding:1px 3px;background:#FFD">Ron<span style="color:red">h</span>jones&nbsp;</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ronhjones|&nbsp;(Talk)]]</sup> 18:24, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::But, [[User:Nagle|John]], ACTRIAL won't affect this sockfarm at all.  See that third item about "a few trivial edits are made to get autoconfirmed"?  That line, in practice, means "This sockfarm will bypass all the restrictions that will be placed during ACTRIAL and still be able to create spam exactly like they're doing right now, but good-faith volunteers at an edit-a-thon, or someone who's excited about his hobby, won't be able to".  If this sockfarm is typical, then ACTRIAL will give us lots of PAID spam and stop everything else.
::::::I'd be very interested in hearing any theories about why these sockfarms are bothering to achieve autoconfirmed status.   Are they maybe uploading images locally?  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 01:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Why do they bother to make a few edits before creating promotional articles? Good question. Perhaps because Cluebot NG's automated system is sensitive to the number of edits by a user? See [[User:ClueBot_NG#Vandalism_Detection_Algorithm]]. Incidentally, paying to get past new page review is now a thing. Upwork ad: ''"Hi, I am looking for an experienced Wikipedia editor who has new page curation rights. I only need you to review existing pages, I'll page $35 per reviewed page. You don't need to publish/edit anything, only review (1-2 min of work). If you can do the job, I can provide tons of pages for you (they all look decent with good sources, no spammy pages). You can review 1-2 of my pages per day, so among all other pages it will look natural."''[https://www.upwork.com/mobile/jobs/_~01300b4c2a2aa86b69]. There's also someone who wants to hire their own admin to control their page. ''"I'm ready to pay high price"'', it says.[https://www.upwork.com/mobile/jobs/_~012bb50901524e1715] Sigh. [[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 05:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::::Speaking of the "paid reviewing", aren't NPPers supposed to review new articles in the order in which they were created? If a NPPer suddenly skipped and went straight to random article(s), isn't that a giveaway that they have gone rogue, and shouldn't their NPP rights be revoked? Should there be a way to automatically track this? (Also, {{Re|Ronhjones}} The time of noindex is now 90 days [or until manually reviewed] rather than 30 days.) [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 08:04, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::[[User:Softlavender|No]] such rule.  Also, it wouldn't make any sense, because editors should be free to focus on subjects that they care about (e.g., reviewing all the music-related articles), and the [Mark page as patrolled] button appears at the bottom of all unreviewed pages no matter what, so there's no way to track which one they "should" review.  Or even to know which ones they've looked at.
:::::::::I'm curious why that guy's willing to pay $35 for reviews.  Keeping a page marked as 'unpatrolled' has exactly two effects:  (1) it lists it in the page review queue, which acts as a sort of group watchlist; and (2) it marks the page as noindex for 90 days.  Past the 90-day mark, having the page unreviewed is irrelevant to anyone who isn't personally using [[Special:NewPagesFeed]].  Is the $35 just to get the page indexed by major web search engines sooner than it would be anyway?  It feels like a lot of money for something that he'll get for free with a little patience.  [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 00:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::"Is the $35 just to get the page indexed by major web search engines sooner than it would be anyway?"  I'd guess that's it. Since Google is heavily biased toward Wikipedia, spending just $12/month gets them lots of Google juice. Quite a bargain actually. [[User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris|Shock Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 01:48, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::A bargain indeed, if we can believe what they are saying themselves (email me if you want the link), one good WP link placement can earn $200 a month in AdSense revenue. We really are at risk of discovering an insider who has been seduced by these cash flows. ☆ [[User:Bri|Bri]] ([[User talk:Bri|talk]]) 06:03, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
===Related? sleeper accounts===
I did a random check of the last 100 accounts created in the month of June. Only 25 of them have ever edited. Makes me wonder how many account creations are explicit sleeper creations for these sockfarms. I'm having a hard time thinking of why a person would create a WP account and never do anything with it. ☆ [[User:Bri|Bri]] ([[User talk:Bri|talk]]) 05:55, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{u|Bri}}, the answer is "many". At one point we rangeblocked the entirety of T-Mobile in the USA due to excessive vandalism, and the account creation rate dropped by some stupid percentage for those two weeks (never mind the vandalism was severely halted as well). I almost want to say that if an account goes unused for more than a year after creation, it should be blocked out of precaution, but that would never fly. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 13:42, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
::A year would probably be too long, unless you can show multiple cases of socks which slept for that long; anything shorter would be too short, unless you can show that no currently or formerly established user, with no significant suspicion of sockpuppetry, went for that long between account creation and first edit. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 06:18, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

== [[WP:AN/CXT]] ==
{{discussion top|reason=There is consensus to '''move forward with {{U|Mathglot}}'s proposal (see [[#Proposal]])''', which will cause a mass deletion of the pages on [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review]], with the option to save certain pages from deletion within a two-week window. As part of the proposal, there is also a consensus to amend [[WP:X2]] in the manner {{U|S Marshall}} specifies in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACriteria_for_speedy_deletion&type=revision&diff=766024631&oldid=765650814 this edit].{{pb}}Opposition to this change revolved around the argument that the articles which would qualify for mass deletion should be improved instead of deleted. Elinruby proposed alternatively that we should focus on recruiting editors fluent in foreign languages, Mathglot initially proposed to mass-draftify the articles instead of deleting, and Sam Walton argued that the articles contained valid content that didn't deserve mass deletion.{{pb}}A majority of other editors, however, argued that many of the articles involved are poorly sourced BLPs that have the potential to harm their subjects if left unimproved. Given the large number of articles and low number of editors involved, it will likely be months before these articles are improved. Additionally, a user who is not fluent in both of the languages involved in a translation will not be able to adequately evaluate the validity of the machine-translated content; the article may appear unproblematic to such a user, but the content translation tool could have subtly altered the meaning of statements to something false.{{pb}}In short, the consensus is that in the long run, the encyclopedia would be better off if these articles were mass deleted. Respectfully, [[User:Mz7|Mz7]] ([[User talk:Mz7|talk]]) 23:22, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

::'''Addendum:''' The process for working out how to cause the mass deletion has been established.  To mark an article for retention, please <s>strike it out</s>.  To unambiguously identify an article for deletion, include the word "kill" in the same line as the article. The articles will be deleted on or after '''June 6, 2017'''.  Thank you for your patience. [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC) }}

Hi, Wikipedians. I wanted to give you an update on WP:AN/CXT.  Since that discussion was closed about eight months or so ago, we've cleared out about 10% of [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review|the articles involved]], which were the easiest 10%. The work is now slowing down as more careful examination is needed and as the number of editors drops off, and I'm sad to report that we're still finding BLP issues. The temporary speedy deletion criterion, X2, is of little use because it's phrased as a special case of WP:SNOW and I'm not being allowed to improve it. The "it's notable/AFD is not for cleanup" culture at AFD is making it hard for me to remove these articles as well, so I'm spending hours trying to get rid of material generated by a script in seconds. I'm sorry but I'm discouraged and I give up. Recommend the remainder are nuked to protect the encyclopaedia.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 23:15, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

:For more context on this issue, please see [[Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#X2 revision]].  Cheers, [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
:::::::<small>Update: {{Green|This link is now located at [[Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_61#X2_revision|.../Archive_61#X2 revision]]}}. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 01:10, 1 April 2017 (UTC) </small>

::Thanks for your work on this, S Marshall, and I don't fault you for your choice. - Dank ([[User talk:Dank|push to talk]]) 19:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
*Isn't there some way to use the sortware to delete all of these in bulk, if only as a one-time thing?  Seems like a huge waste of time if it's being done manually by hand. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><span style="color:#FF0000;">St</span><span style="color:#FF5500;">ar</span><span style="color:#FF8000;">bli</span><span style="color:#FFC000;">nd</span></b> 00:07, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
:*Easily doable as a batch-deletion. I could have it wrapped up in 15 minutes. Unfortunately community consensus did not lean towards approving that option. In fact, most CXT creations which have been reviewed needed cleanup but turned out to be acceptable articles. <span style="font-size:10pt;color:white;background:black;padding:0 3px;"><big>☺</big>&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User:Salvidrim!|<span class="smallcaps" style="font-variant:small-caps;"><span style="color:white">Salvidrim!</span></span>]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:Salvidrim|<span style="color:white">&#9993;</span>]]</span> 21:00, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
I would support a nuke, a mass draftification, or some loosening of X2.  The current situation is not really tenable due to the density of BLP violations.  However, ultimately, the broader community needs to discuss what the appropriate action is under the assumption that we are not going to get much more volunteer time to manually check these articles.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:54, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
*No, the broader community doesn't need to discuss that.  It's completely needless and the community has had a huge discussion already.  All that needs to happen is for WT:CSD to let me make one bold edit to a CSD that was badly-worded from the get-go, and we'll all be back on track.  That's it.  The only problem we have is that there are so many editors who want to tell ''me'' how to do it, and so few editors willing to get off their butts and do it.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:34, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
:*Restored from archive, as it's unhelpful for this to remain unresolved.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 17:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC) 
*'''Support''' systematic nuke/ revision of X2 to enable this mess to be cleared up. It's not fair that {{ping|S Marshall}} is being [[WP:IAR|prevented from improving the encyclopedia]] like this. [[User:Amisom|Amisom]] ([[User talk:Amisom|talk]]) 15:21, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' {{ping|S Marshall}}'s revision or a nuke from orbit. I wasn't active when this situation was being discussed originally, but having now read over the discourse on the matter, it is clear that our current approach isn't working. No one else is stepping up to help S Marshall do this absurd amount of reviewing, leaving us stuck with thousands of machine-translated BLP violations. It's all well and good to say that AfD isn't cleanup and deletion solves nothing and we should let articles flower patiently into beautiful gardens, but if no one's pulling the weeds and watering the sprouts, the garden isn't a garden, it's a weed-riddled disaster. Give the gardener a weed whacker already. &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 09:17, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' the bold edit required to X2; it's true, of course, that AfD is not clean up- but neither should it be a barrier to clean up. In any case, moving a backlog from one place to another is hardly helpful.  &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon; text-shadow:#666362 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">'''O Fortuna!'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy"><sup>''''' Imperatrix mundi.'''''</sup></span>]] 09:39, 24 March 2017 (UTC) 
*'''Question''' {{ping|Elinruby|Yngvadottir}} As users who (from a quick glance) seem to have been active looking through these articles, do you think the quality is on average worse than a typical random encyclopedia article, and if so, bad enough that speedy deletion would be preferable to allowing them to be improved over time as with any other article? I don't mean to imply that this is necessarily the case, but I think it should be the bar for concluding whether mass speedy deletion is the correct answer. [[User:Samwalton9|'''S'''am '''W'''alton]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9|talk]]) 11:22, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
*(I wish I'd seen this earlier; thanks for the ping. I feel I have totally let down {{U|S Marshall}}; I just couldn't stand it any more.) On the whole&nbsp;... yes. '''Support''' deletion of those remaining that have not been marked as ok/fixed. As I tried to explain in the initial discussion, the basic premise here is incorrect: as it states somewhere at [[WP:PNT|Pages needing translation into English]], a machine translation is worse than no article. It will almost always be either almost impossible to read, incorrect (for example, mistranslating names as ordinary nouns, or omitting negatives ...) or both. Some of these translations have been ok; many have been woefully incomplete (just the start of the lede), and they all require extremely careful checking. Yes, what lies in wait may include BLP violations. I sympathize with the article creators, and I am usually an inclusionist; I put hours of work into checking and improving some of these, and I'm not the only one. But please, enough. We'd wind up with decent articles faster if these were deleted, and the majority that are bad do a disservice to their topics. [[User:Yngvadottir|Yngvadottir]] ([[User talk:Yngvadottir|talk]]) 12:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
:*You haven't let me down.  You've given me a truckload of support with this.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 13:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
*'''Still oppose mass deletion''' -- {{ping|Sam Walton}} What she said: Thank you the ping; this discussion was seeming a bit reiterative and I had mentally checked out. Like {{ping|Yngvadottir}} I have put considerable effort into some of these articles. In fact, two or three of them are my own translations, which I would not have attempted without the translation tool, btw. Some are from my translations on French law,  and I think 1) they cover important and previously missing topics and 2) they are high-quality technical translations. In most cases they speak for themselves. A couple are not perfect, reflecting the state of the French article, yes, and [[Office central de répression de la grande délinquance financière|need work]]. But while these articles -- I am speaking here specifically of my own translations that appear on this list -- may be imperfect they are still reasonable stubs that can be built upon, and they also support more important articles by helping to prevent redlinks in some of the top-level articles on French law and also the French colonial legacy in Rwanda and the Congos etc. See [[Biens mal acquis]] for example. That was painful but I am proud of that translation. I have also encountered other people's translations on that list that made me proud of Wikipedia; the one on a [[Double_Ratchet_Algorithm|cryptology algorithm]] for example comes to mind, or [[Essai sur les mœurs et l'esprit des nations]]. I am an inclusionist, I have to admit, and yes yes, great wrongs and all, but I do think it is important that (for example) articles on Congolese history mention that there have been civil wars (beyond "unrest", and no, I am not kidding). The worst BLP problems  I am aware of are in the articles on [[Impeachment of Dilma Rousseff|Dilma Rousseff]] and I don't believe they are on this list or were created with the tool. Some of the worst PNT pages I have seen predate the translation tool, for instance [[Notre-Dame de la Garde]], which took me years to finish, and [[Annees folles]] which is as we speak an incredible mess requiring research in addition to copy-editing and translation. Yngvadottir is correct in saying that inappropriately translated proper nouns is a frequent problem. I recall a [[Hubert de Garde de Vins]] who became "wine", and yes, this did reduce the sentence to gibberish. It's annoying enough to make me wanna [[regex]]. But. Not mass deletion. I suggest case-by-case intervention in the case of egregious problems with particular users. It's not as though more that a very few users even try to translate. Or perhaps we should revise the criteria for translation user privileges. But even there -- one of the people tagged as delete on sight has created a number of [[Jean-Marc_Desgent|skeleton articles]] about Quebec. These articles should be be fleshed out not deleted; we should have articles about Quebec. Some of the authors are unquestionably notable, the equivalent in my small culture of Simone de Beauvoir or Colette or Andre Gide. It seems to me that an article that says: this author was born, drank coffee, [[Normand_de_Bellefeuille|won the Governor-General's award]] and wrote these books, is better than having nothing at all. The placeholder takes the topic from unknown unknown to known unknown, or little-known in this context, I guess. We do know a little more about the [[Honduran_folklore|folk dances of Honduras]] because there is a very bad article, for which I have done what I could. There are many different problems with the articles on this list. Someone has created multiple articles about, apparently every madrassa in central Tunis. Who am I? Some of the articles I have rescued at PNT were about the [[Château_de_l'Hers|medieval wines]] of Provence, which might seem equally trivial to some. Some of the important but very flawed articles I have noted maybe should not be in the article mainspace -- I am thinking of the ones about the [[Image_of_the_Virgin_Mary_Mother_of_God_of_Guadalupe|Virgin of Guadeloupe]], pretty much everything flagged [[:Category:Mexican_historical_documents|Mexican historical documents]], the Spanish [[La entrada de la flor|procession of the flowers]], etc)--but an interested Spanish speaker could build these out. These topics are unquestionably notable. We should have an article about the Virgin of Guadeloupe, really, people, we should. My suggestion would be recruiting. We desperately need a Portuguese speaker and additional help with Spanish. Some of the unreferenced BLPs sitting around appear to be very fine even though they are unreferenced, and may in fact veer into fluff. But they don't approach liability for libel if that's the concern. I avoid them, personally, because I have in the past deciphered [[Abidjan]] [[l33t]] about a beloved soccer player, only to be told that we don't as a matter of policy consider these leagues notable. Fine then, they should not be on the PNT to-do list. I'd love to see the translation workflow improved but we should be encouraging the people expanding our horizons is what I think. I am sorry for the very long answer but I appear to be a voice wailing in the desert on this topic and I have now said pretty much the above many times now. Nobody seems to care so oh well, it's not like I don't have other work I can do on the [[History_of_the_Republic_of_the_Congo#Democracy_and_civil_war|history of the Congo]] and figuring out what Dilma Rousseff had to say about her impeachment. Reliable sources say she was railroaded (NPR for one) and that is not included in the article at all right now. The articles on Congolese history airily write off genocide and slaughter as "some unrest". In a world where these things are true I really don't care whether on not we find a reference for that Eurovision winner. Someone who cares can do that and I think ethnocentrism is a bigger issue on Wikipedia that these translation attempts. Move the ones that don't meet a minimum standard to some draft space or something. Educate the people who are creating this articles instead of shaking your finger at them. The article creation process is daunting enough and I myself have had to explain to new page patrollers that this punk band is in fact seminal whether you have heard of them or not and whether or not they sing in a language that you can understand. But I have been here enough to do that and I assure you, most people will not. Wikipedia wants to know why its editors grow fewer cough cough wikipedia, lookee here. I will shortly wikilink some of the examples I mention above for easier show-and-tell, for the benefit of anyone who has read this far. Thanks. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 20:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

*'''Support''' removal of these attempted articles (especially to avoid BLP problems laying around). [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 14:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=731700638&diff=prev] I'd say "do a disservice to their topics" is a mild way of putting it. --[[User:NeilN|<b style="color:navy">Neil<span style="color:red">N</span></b>]] <sup>[[User talk:NeilN|<i style="color:blue">talk to me</i>]]</sup> 14:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' blanket deletion. Having just checked a bunch of the remaining articles I found plenty of perfectly reasonable, non-BLP articles here, and any bad articles I did find were certainly not in greater number than you would find by hitting Random Article, nor were they particularly awful; the worst offenses I found were poor but understandable English. There's a lot of valid content here, especially on non-English topics which we need to do a better job of writing about. FWIW I'll happily put some time into going through this list. [[User:Samwalton9|'''S'''am '''W'''alton]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9|talk]]) 14:12, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
**Please take a look at the 20 articles I just reviewed [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/CXT/Pages_to_review#1601-1700|here]]; none had any issues greater than needing a quick copyedit. [[User:Samwalton9|'''S'''am '''W'''alton]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9|talk]]) 14:38, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
***{{ping|Samwalton9}} Thanks. It's been a long, hard slog. I appreciate it if any of these ''can'' be saved. However, did you check for accuracy? It's possible for a machine translation to be misleadingly wrong. And the miserable translation tool the WMF provides usually doesn't even attempt filmographies: look at that specific section of [[:Asier Etxeandia]]. This is not acceptable in a BLP. Somebody who reads the original language (Spanish? Catalan?) needs to go through that article sentence by sentence and film by film. Unfortunately it's not a matter of notability (that's almost always attested to by the original article), it's a matter of whether we have time to save ''this article''. [[User:Yngvadottir|Yngvadottir]] ([[User talk:Yngvadottir|talk]]) 15:27, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
****That names of works likely don't get automatically translated properly is a good point that I hadn't considered, thanks for pointing that out. If that's one of the primary issues then I'd favour a semi-automated removal of "filmography" or similar sections, if possible. It just seems that there's a lot of perfectly good content in here. [[User:Samwalton9|'''S'''am '''W'''alton]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9|talk]]) 15:47, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
*****I looked at the first one you listed, it is a mass of non-BLP compliant (non-neutral, no-inline source) material.  Letting stuff like that hang around is not just bad for that BLP but as an example for other BLPs to be created and remain non-compliant. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 16:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
******Sam Walton, you didn't answer Yngvadottir's question.  Can you speak the source languages?  Remember that because of the defective way that software feature was implemented, you ''cannot'' assume that the translator speaks English and in many cases they ''obviously'' couldn't.  (In practice the source language matters a lot because the software accuracy varies by the language pair.   Indo-European languages are often but not always okay, and Spanish-English translations have particularly high accuracy, approaching 80%.  Japanese-English, for example, has much, much lower accuracy.)  So the correctness of the translation must be, and can only be, checked by someone with dual fluency in the source language and English.<p>In the real world you can establish some rules-of-thumb.  For example, you can quite safely assume that everything translated by Rosiestep is appropriate and can be retained.  The editorial skills of the different translators varied very widely.<p>All in all the best solution is for a human who's fluent in the source language and English to look at each of these articles and form an intelligent judgment.  The thing that's preventing this solution is that, having looked at the content and formed the judgment, I can't then remove a defective article, because the defective wording in [[WP:CSD#X2]] encourage sysops to decline the deletion unless it's a [[WP:SNOW]] case... so I've got to start a full AfD.  Every.  Single.  Time.  The effort for me to clean up is out of all proportion to the effort editors put into creating the damn things with a script.<p>If you don't want the articles nuked (and that's a reasonable position), then please support the X2 revision I have proposed.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 17:37, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
:::::::When you say "the first one you listed" are you talking about [[Tomokazu Matsuyama]]? Yes, if so. it is indeed an unreferenced BLP but... I suspect five minutes of quality time with Google would take it out of that category, and it's essentially a resume, something like the placeholder articles I mentioned above. I think that perhaps we are better off knowing that this Japanese contemporary artist exists. Why not do a wikiproject to improve these like the one we just had on Africa top-level articles? It does seem to me that you could use a break from this wikitask and a little gamification might well get er done. I share your sentiment that in some ways we have our fingers in the dyke here, but the dyke does serve a purpose I think...In short I respectfully disagree with the current approach to these articles. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 21:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

====Break====
::::::::{{ping|Alanscottwalker}} I found a reference for his influences in less time than it took to add the ref code....[[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 19:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::::Elinruby:  Did you mean to ping me back here, many days after I commented, to tell me you found a pretty crappy commercial source?  When I looked at it awhile ago, the article was filled with non-npov/non-referenced/BLP violating text.  It is, thus, no comfort that since I commented, awhile ago, someone has according to their edit 'removed the worst of the puffery', and you added that crappy commercial source - its still not policy compliant (even if it is marginally better, since I flagged it) [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 20:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC) 
::::::::::::::{{ping|Alanscottwalker}} I brought you back here to tell you that while it may be have been unsourced, fixing this is extremely trivial. I don't give a hoot about this particular article, but his gallery is not a "crappy commercial source" imho and if you want people to fix then article then you should enunciate your problem with it. Sorry if that doesn't fit your preconceptions [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 00:51, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::Adding a non-independent crappy commercial source is not fixing.  It is selling.  We are not in the business of selling.  What you call "trivial" sourcing does nothing to fix just makes it worse - "trivial" should have tipped you off. -- [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 08:25, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::{{re|AlanscottWalker}} Um no.... I was using the term in its software development meaning. I apologize for picking the wrong dialect to make my point. I thought, since you were critiquing the software tool, you might know something about software even though you don't seem to be familiar with the features of this instance of it, or for that matter with a representative sample of its users. Commericial, hmm. The same could be said of my article about the thousand-year-old Papal vintages, you know. That vineyard is selling wine today. Is that article also commercial crap? Since it is a direct translation from French Wikipedia, are you saying that French Wikipedia is commercial crap? You really don't want to make me argue this point, seriously. Incidentally what is with the arbitrary insertion of a break in the discussion? Consider, for just a moment, that I might actually have a point. Entertain the notion for a minute. Why are you belittling my statement? [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 21:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::Critiquing software tool? No, I was clearly critiquing an article in English on the English Wikipedia. And I was referring to the crappy commercial source - you pinged me, remember, so that I would know you added it to the article.  That was not done in French, it was done in English. As for break, that is your doing, why should I have any idea why you added the crappy source, and then wanted to tell me about it in this break. -- [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 22:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC) 
::::::::::::::::::::::::{{ping|Alanscottwalker}} Let me use small words. CTX is software. Bad translation can happen with or without software. Lack of sources can happen without software. In software development "trivial" means "easy". Do you see now? Be careful who you patronize next time. 01:07, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
::::::{{ping|S Marshall}}I'd consider supporting your proposal, perhaps, once I have read it, but could you provide a link for we mere mortals who don't normally follow these proposals? I also disagree that all of these articles require a bilingual editor; some just need a few references and/or a copy edit. But you know I disagree at this point. And if you do, god help us, nuke all of these articles as opposed to one of the other courses of action I have (again) suggested above, please move mine to my draft space if you find them that objectionable. Some sort of clue as to what your issue is would also be nice. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 19:43, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
*{{unindent}} The revision I want to make is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ACriteria_for_speedy_deletion&type=revision&diff=766024631&oldid=765650814 this one].  The intended effect is so that a human editor, who has reviewed the script-generated content and given it due consideration and exercise of judgment, can recommend the content for deletion and receive assistance rather than bureaucracy from our admin corps.<p>The basic problem with these articles is that they ''are'' script generated and the scripts are unreliable.  Exactly ''how'' unreliable they are varies according to the language pair, so for example Spanish-English translations are relatively good, while for example Japanese-English translations are relatively poor; and whether the articles contain specific grammatical constructions that the scripts have trouble with.<p>You can test its accuracy, and I recommend you do.  The script it used, during the problem period, was Google translate.  I've just picked some sample text and run it through Google translate in various language pairs, first into a different language and then the translated text back into English, to see how it did.  These were the results:-
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! ''Source text''
! Korean
! Punjabi
! Farsi
|-
| ''Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition''
| Fourth and seventh years ago, our ancestors left the continent, a new country born in Liberty.
| Four score and seven years on this continent, first our father a new nation, brought freedom and dedicated to the proposition
| Four score and seven years ago our fathers on this continent, a new nation, the freedom brought, and dedicated to the proposition
|-
| ''And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.''
| And when he saw the multitude, he went up to the mountain, and his disciples came, and opened his mouth, and taught him, saying, Blessed are the souls of the poor: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
| Jesus saw the crowds up on the mountain, and when he sat, his disciples came to him and he opened his mouth, and the poor in spirit was teaching, that theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  (Yes: interestingly the algorithm interpolated "Jesus" into the text.)
| And seeing the multitudes, he went to the mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came to him and he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for the kingdom of heaven.
|-
| ''Editors agree not to publish biographical material concerning living people unless it is accurate''
| The editors agree not to post electrical materials about living people unless they are the correct person.
| To publish the biographical material about the editor, it is right to disagree,
| Editors agree to publish biographies of living people, unless it is accurate.
|}
:I encourage you to try these and other examples with different language pairs.  Can you see why you need to speak the original language in order to copyedit accurately?—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:00, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
:::But that is not a fair test since it magnifies any word choice errors. There *will* be errors, yes. We clean them up at [[WP:PNT]] --- ALL THE TIME. And no, it is not necessary to speak the language always, though it certainly help. I really suggest that maybe you just need a wikibreak from this task. Bad english can mostly be fixed. There are the occasional mysteries, yes. There are colloquialisms, yes. This does not justify wholesale destruction of good content. I was just here to get the link as I mentioned your proposal to one of my PNT colleagues; I need to go but I'll look at your proposal the next time I log in [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 00:46, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

:::: '''The liquor was strong but the meat was rotten.'''

:::: Translation wonks will recognize the (apocryphal) story behind the sentence above, concerning [[Literal translation#Mistranslations|literal mistranslations]] exacerbated from there-and-back translation. (The story perhaps originated after the NY World's Fair of 1964, which had a computer translation exhibit in the Russian Pavilion.)  In any case, I'm just getting up to speed on this topic and will comment in more detail later. 

:::: Briefly: yes, you definitely have to speak the language to copyedit accurately.  I'm actually in favor of a modification to [[WP:MACHINETRANSLATION]] to make it stronger. I fully agree with the '''worse than nothing''' statement in the policy now, but I'd go one step further: the only thing worse than a machine translation in an encyclopedia, is a machine translation that has been copyedited by a capable and talented monolingual (''even'' worse: by someone who knows a bit of the language and doesn't know what s/he doesn't know) so that the result is beautiful, grammatical, smooth, stylish, wonderful English prose.  As a translator, puh-LEEZ leave the crappy, horrible, machine-gobbledygook so that a translator can spot it easily, and fix it accurately.  Copyediting it into proper English makes our job much harder. 

:::: If it's too painful to leave it exposed in main space, perhaps moving to Draft space could be an alternative.  In fact, rather than a mass-delete, why not a mass-Draft-ify? (Apologies if someone has already said this, I'm still reading the thread.)  More later.  [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 01:31, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

::::::: '''mass-Draftify''' would work for me. And yeah I disagree with you too a little, but I knew that. My point is, we all agree that an issue exists so what do we do? I also have some more reading to do before I comment on what {{user|S Marshall}} is proposing. I have a story about the policy but I want to make sure it pertains to this discussion. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 22:03, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

::::*Elinruby is certainly correct to say this "wasn't a fair test", because going through the algorithm twice doubles the error rate.  But a lot of people reading this discussion will speak only English so this is the only way I can show them what the problem is ---- without that context, they may well find this, and the original discussion at [[WP:AN/CXT]], rather impenetrable because they won't understand the gravity of the concerns.<p>It was even more unfair because it was me who selected the examples and I don't like machine translations.  In order to illustrate my point I went with non-European languages and convoluted sentence structures.  If you tried the same exercise with a verse from "Green Eggs and Ham" then you'd get perfect translations 99% of the time.  (It tripped me up with the Sermon on the Mount because quite clearly, the algorithm recognised that it was dealing with a Bible verse, which I found fascinating.)<p>The script is particularly likely to do badly with double-negatives, not-unless constructions, adverbs of time ("since", "during", "for a hundred years"), and the present progressive tense, in some language pairs.<p>It would certainly be possible to construct a fairer text using more random samples of language.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:27, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::: {{ping|S Marshall}} alright, I grant you that there aren't many bilinguals here. This *is* the problem in my view. I'll also specify that I don't claim expertise outside the Romance languages, and very little for some of ''those''. But allow me please, since I know you speak or at least read French, to propose a better example. There are common translation errors that can occur, depending on which tool exactly was used. The improperly-translated name ''(nom propre)'' problem was real but is now mostly fixed. The fact that a writer whose novels were written in French gave them titles in French should come as a shock to nobody. The correct format for a bibliography in such cases *is* title in the actual language of the words in the book, webpage or whatever. Translated title, if the title is not in English, goes in the optional trans-title (or is it trans_title?) field of the cite template. Language switch to be set if at all possible. If it is not, let me know, and I can reduce the number of foreign words that English wikipedia needs to look at. So. In all languages, pretty much, words like fire and sky and take tend to be both native to the original people and likely to carry additional meanings, as in take an oath, take a bus, take a break etc. On the other hand what the software tool does do extremely well is know the correct translation for arcane or specialized terms, often loanwords, like caravel or apse or stronghold. These words are in my recognition vocabulary not my working vocabulary and using the tool in certain instances saves many lookups. When there is a strong degree of ambiguity or divergence in meaning (like the example on my user page) then THEN yes a fluent or very advanced user is needed. There are known divergences that a bilingual would spot that an English speaker would not. Sure. "Je l'aime beaucoup, mon mari" is a good example. But the fact that this is true does not prove that every line of every one of these articles still needs to be checked before they can be permitted to continue to sully Wikipedia, or that each of these lines needs to be checked by you personally. If you feel overwhelmed, take a break. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 21:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::*I speak English, French, German, Gibberish and Filth.  :)  Joking aside -- I'm not concerned about noms propres.  I'm concerned when the script perverts or even inverts the meaning of the source text.  It's quite hard to give you an example because the examples I've discovered have all been deleted, and there's only the one non-English language we share, but perhaps an administrator will confirm for you the sorry history of [[Daphné Bürki]].  It was created as a machine translation of [[:fr:Daphné Bürki]] and the en.wiki version said she was married to Sylvain Quimène, citing [http://www.purepeople.com/article/daphne-burki-officialise-avec-son-amoureux_a85009/1 this source].  Check it out; the source doesn't say that.  In fact she was married to Travis  Bürki, at least at one time (can't say whether she's still married to him).  We had a biographical article where the subject was married to the wrong bloke.  It's not okay to keep these around.<p>Draftification is exactly the same as deleting them.  Nobody is going to fix these up in draft space.  The number of editors who're competent to fix them is small, and the amount of other translation work those editors have on their hands is very large, and it includes a lot of mainspace work that's more urgent than fixing raw machine translations in draft space, and it always will; we can get back to fixing draft space articles about individual artworks when every Leibniz-prizewinning scientist and every European politician with a seat on their national parliament has a biography.  (We're on target never to achieve that.  The democratic process means new politicians get elected and replaced faster than their biographies get translated from foreign-language wikipedias.)<p>I don't ''object'' to draftifying these articles if that's the face-saving solution that lets us pretend we're being all inclusionist about it, but it would be more honest to nuke them all from orbit.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

::::::::::::*I am just coming back to this. I agree about the relatively few translators and the large amount of work, and yet, we so fundamentally disagree. Some of the designated articles do are, in my opinion, within the top percentiles in article quality. Others have in fact been fixed up. You and I consulted about one once. Others, yes, need work, and I at least do get to articles that I say I will get to. Slowly, at times, sure. I have no problem with articles that don't meet a certain standard not going to mainspace, but I don't see why you singly out the translation tool as your criterion. I mention noms propres because I have mentioned one above from [[Notre-Dame de la Garde]] where Commander de Vins came across as wine, and this did make the sentence gibberish. But that article did not come out of the CTX tool. Ihave no idea what the Leibniz prize is, but I am not sure it's more notable, in the abstract, than Marcel Proust, but fine. Work on that all you like, sure. But don't tell me it's more important that some mention in Congolese history that there have been civil wars, or I will just laugh at you. The sort of error you mention above with Daphné Büki -- I'll look at it myself shortly, if it's from French I don't need an admin -- can be made by anyone who knows less than they think they do. Automated translation not needed. Now, I propose that since we are talking about this we work out some sort of saner translation process. For instance, if African football leagues are by policy not notable, as someone once told me, fine then, the article should not be in the translation queue. Put something in there about a minimum number of references, require the use of trans-title in the references, whatever is agreed upon is ok with me. Your proposed change would preserve most of by not all of the articles that have been worked on, which is a slight improvement I guess, except you'll also nuke the 3-4 articles that needed nothing and a whole lot of biography that I've avoid because people tend to write me snooty messages to inform me that the person isn't notable, and why waste work when articles like History of Nicaragua are so lacking? [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 01:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

===Proposal===
Okay, I've gone through this and thought about it, and I'm conditionally a Yes on change to X2 and nuking the list, with an option to save certain files.

[[User:S Marshall|S Marshall]], I take your point about draftification being pointless, as they'll just sit there with most of them never being edited ever.

I believe you've also persuaded me that the nuke is appropriate, given some conditions below.  In order to keep Elinruby and Sam Walton (and me, and others) happy about not deleting certain files we are working on or wish to work on, I had an idea: what if we agree to allow a delay of two weeks to allow interested parties to go through and mark files in the list we want to keep so when the nuke-a-bot comes through, it can pass over the files thus marked.  (I don't know if we can gin this up for two weeks from yesterday, but that would be auspicious.) 

More specifically, to Elinruby's (22:03, 1 April) "So what do we do?" question, I think here's what we do:
* Those of us who want to retain files, mark them with <code><nowiki>{{bots|deny=X2-nukebot}}</nowiki></code> to vaccinate them against nuking.
* Change X2 accordingly
* Somebody develops the nuke script
* Nuke script should nuke "without prejudice" so that if someone changes their mind later and wants to recreate a file, it shouldn't be "salted" or require admin action to "undelete"; you just recreate it in the normal way you create any new file.
* If needed, we run a pre-nuke test against sandbox files, or can we just trust the vaccination will be respected?
* Start the script up and let 'er rip
[[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]], if this proposal were accepted, would you change your no to X2 modif to a yes?  [[User:Sam Walton|Sam Walton]], would you? 

Naturally for this to have any value, we'd have to agree to not vaccinate the whole list, but just the ones we reasonably expect to work on, or judge worthy of keeping. If desired, I can envisage a way to greatly speed up the first step (vaccination) for all of us. Personally, I won't mark any file translated from a language I don't know well enough to evaluate the translation.  But, going through all 3500 files is a burden, since there's no point my even clicking on the ones in languages I don't know.  If I knew in advance which ones are from Spanish, French, etc., that would be a huge help.  If you look at [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/CXT/Pages_to_review#1301-1400|1300-1350]], you'll see that I've marked them with a language code (and a byte count; but that was for something else).  I could commit to marking another 200 or 300 with the lang code, maybe more.  If we could break up the work that way and everybody just mark the files for lang code, then once that's done, we could all go through the whole list much more quickly, to see which ones we wanted to evaluate for vaccination.  

I really think this could be wrapped up in a couple of weeks, if we get agreement.
[[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 18:17, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
*Entirely happy with this idea.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:33, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
*Agree. [[User:Amisom|Amisom]] ([[User talk:Amisom|talk]]) 11:31, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
*This is fine with me.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:03, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Are there any objections to moving forward with this? [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 01:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
:Almost two weeks of [[WP:SILENCE|SILENCE]] sounds like "go for it". [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 02:28, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
::I'm still good with this as proposer, of course, but just to reiterate: we'd still need a two-week moratorium *after acceptance* of the proposal before nuking, to allow interested parties to vaccinate such articles as they chose to.  I assumed that was clear, but that "go for it" got me a little scared, so thought I'd better raise it again.
::On Tazerdadog's point, what ''is'' the procedure for deciding when to go forward with a proposal?  Are we there now? Whatever the procedure is, and whenever we deem "acceptance" to happen, can someone close it at that point and box it up like I see on Rfcs, so we can then start the two-week, innoculation period timer ticking without having more opinions straggle in after it's already been decided?  Or what's the right way to do this? [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 07:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
*'''Request formal close''', per Mathglot.  Do I need to post on ANRFC?—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 18:40, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

{{discussion bottom}}

=== X2-nuke interim period ===

Wow, cool!  Glad we made some progress, and just trying to nail down the next steps to keep things moving smoothly. To recap my understanding:
* we are now in <s>the "inoculation period" with a fortnight-timer which expires 23:22, 6 May 2017 (UTC)</s> an interim period where we figure out how to implement this.
* <s>during this period, anyone may tag articles in the list at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review]] with the proper tag to prevent nuking two weeks hence</s>

A couple of questions: 
* do we have to recruit someone to write a script to do the actual nuking? 
* what form should the actual "vaccination" tag have?  In the [[#Proposal|proposal above]], I just kind of threw out that expression: <code><nowiki>{{bots|deny=X2-nukebot}}</nowiki></code> but I have no idea how we really need to tag the articles, and maybe that's a question for the script writer?
* will the bot also observe <s>strikeout type</s> as an indicator not to nuke?  A possible issue is inconsistent usage among editors: for example, some editors have not used strikeout for articles they have reviewed and clearly wish to save (e.g. see [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/CXT/Pages_to_review#1601-1700|#1601-1622]])

As for me, I will continue to tag a couple hundred more articles with language-tags as I did previously in the [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/CXT/Pages_to_review#1301-1400|1301-1600 range]], to make it easier for everyone to find articles translated from languages they are comfortable working with, and that they therefore might wish to tag. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 02:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC) <small><small>Updated by [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 09:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)</small></small>
*Let's make two lists, one of articles to delete and the other of articles to retain for the moment.  I don't think that it will be necessary to formally request a bot.  We have quite a few sysops who could clean them all out with or without scripted assistance.—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 15:55, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
*:I would  implement it as a giant sortable wikitable - Something that looks like this:

{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! Name
! Language
! Vaccinated
! Notes
|-
| [[Jimbo Wales]]
| es
| [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]])
| Translation checked
|-
| [[Earth]]
| ar
| --
| Probably Notable
|-
| [[My mother's garage band]]
| fr
| --
| X2'd, not notable
|}
[[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 17:17, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

: Isn't the current list easier to deal with than creating a new table, or two new ones? Can we just go based on strikeout type, or add some unambiguous token like, <code>nuke=yes</code> in the content of the items in the enumerated list that need to be deleted?  I'm just trying to think what would be the least work to set up, and easiest to mark for those interested in vaccinating articles.  
: If we decide to go with a table, I might be able to use a fancy regex to create a table from the current bullet list.  Although I definitely see why a table is easier to view and interpret once it's set up, I'm not (yet) persuaded that there's an advantage to setting one up in the first place. For one thing, it's harder to edit a table than a bullet list, because of the risk of screwing up cells or rows. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 18:59, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

::The real advantage of the table is the ability to sort by language.  This way, if we have a volunteer who speaks (for example) only English and Spanish, they can just sort the table by language, and all of the Spanish articles will be shown together.  It's harder to edit, but in my opinion, the ease of viewing and extracting the information far outweighs this.  

::I have created a list that removes all struck items at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review/Tazerdadog cleanup list]].  I'm currently working on getting rid of the redlinks as well.  Once that is done, we can move to a vaccination model on the articles that have not been cleaned up in the articles thus far.  The vaccination can take virtually any form as long as everyone agrees on what it is - I'd recommend that we vaccinate at the central list/table rather than on the article however.  Once the two weeks expire, it's trivial to extract the unvaccinated articles and poke a sysop for deletion.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 00:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Tazerdadog}} This was posted over at [[Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review]] as well but wanted to mention it here. Timotheus Canens has created a language-sortable table in their sandbox at [[User:Timotheus Canens/sandbox]] that I think is similar to what you were thinking. [[User:Mz7|Mz7]] ([[User talk:Mz7|talk]]) 04:06, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

::::And we may have to recreate the table, as I didn't notice it and have been continuing to mark language codes on the main list (and shall continue to do so, unless someone yells "Stop!").  Also, not sure how trivial it is: given a full set of instructions what to do, then, yes, it's trivial, but this is not formatted data (yet) and there are all sorts of questions a sysop might have, such as, what to do with ones marked "moved", or "redirected", and other situations I've come across while going through the list that don't spring to mind. We don't want to burden the sysop with an illy-defined task, so all of those situations should be spelled out before we ask them to take their time to do it, as if there are too many questions, they'll either give up, or they'll do whatever they feel like. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 06:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::{{yo|Timotheus Canens}} [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 05:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

:::::: And am still doing so on the main page, and so have at least six others since the message just above this one was written.  [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 11:53, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

=== X2 countdown and vaccinate indicators ===

Floating a proposal to get the clock started on the two weeks.  Any user can <s>write "Vaccinated" (or anything equivalent , as long as the meaning is understood) on the list on the same line as the </s> '''Strike out any''' article they want to vaccinate.  I can then go through and use regex to remove the vaccinated articles line-by-line from the delete list.  I will then separate out the articles with no substantive commentary attached (anything beyond a language or a byte count is substantive) for an admin to delete or draftify.  Any article which has been individually substantively discussed will be evaluated independently.  If this is OK, we can start the clock.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 22:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
<small>Updated [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 06:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)</small>

:People are already using <s>strikeout</s> type as the "vaccinate" flag so no additional method is needed though I see nothing wrong with using both, if someone has already started with the the other method. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 22:51, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
::Also, I have been placing substantive commentary on plenty of articles, with the intention of facilitating the work of the group as a whole, in order to aid people in deciding whether that article is worth their time to look at and evaluate.  In my case at least, substantive commentary does '''not''' indicate a desire to save, and if you intend to use it that way in the general case, then you need to suggest another indication I can use as a "poison pill" indicator to ensure it is nuked despite the substantive commentary. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 23:31, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
::: {{yo|Mathglot}} Strikeout works even better than my idea, as it is easier to write the regex for.  I was figuring that substantive commentary at least deserved to be read before we nuked them, although unless a comment was actively positive on the article I would have sorted it as a delete.  If you want every article you commented on to be deleted, I can use your signature as the poison pill.  Otherwise, use what you want, just make sure it is clear what it is.  Ideally, place it at the start of a line, so I don't have to think when writing the regex. [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 06:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
:::: {{re|Tazerdadog}} If you need a tester, feel free to shoot me a pattern; I'm a bit of a regex wonk myself, plus I have a nice test app for it.  Can't use my sig as poison pill, cuz often my commentary is unsigned cuz I did them 20 or 50 at a time, with the edit summary carefully explaining what was done, but no sig on the individual line items.  Beyond that, quite a few have commentary by multiple people, so even if I did comment (and even sign) others may have, too.  The only clear way to do this, afaics, is to have an unequivocal keep (or nuke) indicator (or more than one is okay, if you want to OR them) but anything judg-y like "substantive commentary" seems risky to me.  In the latter case, we should just get everyone to review all their edits they forgot to strike, and strike them now, or forever hold their peace.  In my own case, no matter how positive my comment, or how long, if there's no strike on the article title, it's a "nuke".  It occurs to me we should poll everyone and get positive buy-in from all concerned that they understand the indicator system, to make sure everyone knows "strike" equals "keep" and anything else is nuke (or whatever we decide).  It won't do to have 2,000 articles nuked, and then the day after, "Oh, but I thought..."  Know what I mean?[[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 06:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
:::::{{yo|Mathglot}} I think the solution is to draftify until everyone agrees that no mistakes have been made, then delete.  I'm happy to do the grunt work of the manual checking of longer entries, and I don't think it is particularly risky to do so.  However, the vast majority are short, and can and should be handed with a little regex script.  We do need to make sure that the expectation of strikeout = delete instead of strikeout = resolved was clear to all parties.  As for a deleteword, literally anything will do if it is unique and impossible to misinterpret.  I would recommend "kill" as this deleteword, as it is clear what the meaning is, possible to write the regex for, and currently has only a couple of false hits in the page that can be worked around easily.  Does this work for you?
:::::The reasoning for checking longer entries is to try to catch entries like this:
|[[Battle_of_Urica]] -seems fine, at least not a translation issue[[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 19:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC) 

[[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 08:02, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

::::::{{Re|Tazerdadog}} If by "draftify" you mean quarantine, i.e., staging/moving all the to-be-deleted files someplace prior to the hard delete, I totally agree. (Whether that should actually be the current [[WP:DRAFTS|Draft namespace]] is debatable, but might be the right solution.)  As far as regexes, I count 738 &lt;s> tags, 732 &lt;/s> tags, [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review/Regex test 1##May_7_ver_.23779254187|587 keepers, and 2785 nukers]] as of May 7 ver. 779254187. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 22:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:::::::{{yo|Mathglot}} Ok, sounds good.  By draftify, i meant "Move out of mainspace to a different namespace where the content is accessible for translators, but unlikely to be stumbled upon accidentally by someone who thins they are reading an actual encyclopedia article."  it also should be noted that when any of these pages are deleted, it should be a [[WP:SOFTDELETE]], i.e. if someone asks for a small number to be restored after they have been deleted so that they can work on them they can just ask any admin to do so.  I think that's all that needs to be resolved for now, so I'm going to go ahead and start the two week countdown until someone yells at me to stop.  Pinging some participants: {{yo|S Marshall}}{{yo|Elinruby}}{{yo|Yngvadottir}} [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

For clarity, the process is:  At the deadline, '''June 6, 2017''' all struck articles listed at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review]] will be retained, and all unstruck articles will be deleted. Articles with significant commentary attached will have the commentary read before the deletion, but the default is the struck/unstruck status unless the commentary indicates clearly the opposite result is better. The work "kill" may be added to unambiguously mark an article for deletion.  On or after June 6th, the regex nerds will compile a list of articles to delete and retain.  The delete list will be moved to draft space (or subpages of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review), where it will be audited briefly just to make sure nobody made a systematic error, then deleted.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:12, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

:Per [[Wikipedia_talk:Administrators%27_noticeboard/CXT/Pages_to_review#deadline|#deadline]] it's June 6.  Your clarifications on "draftify" and the process all sound good, otherwise.  <br />P.S. Note that one article matches <code>/kill/i</code> but none matches <code>/\bkill\b/i</code>. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 23:28, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
::Fixed, I was unaware of that discussion, thank you. [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:34, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Mathglot|Tazerdog}} so for purposes of making life easier I will strike what I think should be struck. At one point people were checking my work so I was rather tentative initially. I am following the regex discussion but haven't used it in a while so save me the trouble of looking this up -- did you conclude that "kill" would be useful, or not? [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 00:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Elinruby}} If the title is strikeout type, it will be kept; if it isn't, it won't. Placing "Kill" on an article has no effect at nuke time, but it does have a beneficial effect now:, i.e., it saves time for others. It lets others know that you have looked at this one and found it wanting, so they should save their breath and not even bother looking at it. For example:  You marked #18 [[Stevia_cultivation_in_Paraguay]] "really, really bad". That was enough for me not to bother looking at it, so you saved me time, there.  If you want to place "kill" on the non-deserving items you pass by, that will help everybody else.  I may do the same.  But in the end, on Nuke day, the "kill" markings won't have any effect.  Make sense?  [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 01:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
::::::{{re|Mathglot}} yeah it does, thanks. And indeed  I seem to be the most inclusionist in the discussion so if I think it's more work than it's worth I doubt that anyone else in the discussion would disagree. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 01:31, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
:::::::<small><small>Re-pinging{{ping|Tazerdadog}} on Elinruby's behalf for confirmation.  Due to the ping typo above, he may not have seen this, and it's really his call, not mine. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 01:35, 8 May 2017 (UTC)</small></small>
Mathglot's interpretation above is basically correct.  Please do not duplicate work you've already done just to add the kill flag, but please strike entities that could be ambiguous (I will manually evaluate your intention based on comments that you left, but the default is the struck/unstruck status unless you are clear in your comments otherwise). Please do use these flags from now on, or on any where your intention is unclear.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 02:15, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

:{{u|Tazerdadog}} I'm looking at formation of the strikeout tags enclosing the linked titles, and found [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review/Regex test 1#May_14_ver_.23780319854|43 anomalies]] that might trip up the nuke pattern.  I'll probably starting fixing these tomorrow. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 09:44, 14 May 2017 (UTC) 

==== assumption for User space items ====
{{re|Tazerdadog}} I notice that various contributors are strikeout-tagging Userspace items: see [[WP:CXT/PTR#1-100|#14]], [[WP:CXT/PTR#1-100|15]], [[WP:CXT/PTR#601-700|691]], and [[WP:CXT/PTR#601-700|695]] for example.  I have not been tagging any of them, my assumption being that '''all''' User space items will be kept automatically regardless of presence/absence of strikeout title (and ignoring any "kill"), and since it's trivial to skip over them with the regex it's not necessary to tag them.  If you agree, please make a note at [[WT:CXT/PTR]], or let me know and I will, so everyone can save their breath marking these. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 01:25, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
:That was my assumption as well, all entries outside of mainspace should be fine.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 01:39, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

==== rescuing clobbers by CXT ====
{{ping|Tazerdadog}} I just rescued [[WP:CXT/PTR#2601-2700|#2611]]  [[Garbacz]].  This was a good stub created in 2008, then clobbered in 2016 by [[mw:ContentTranslation|ContentTranslation]] tool, leaving a rubbish translation deserving of deletion.  I just rescued it by reverting it back to the last good version before the clobber, and struck it as a keeper.

I'm concerned that there may be an unknown number of formerly good articles of long standing in the list that we don't want to delete, simply because they got clobbered by CXT at some point and thus ended up in the list, and time ran out before anybody got a chance to look at them.  If I can get a list of potential clobbers in the next week, I will check them all out.  (Am betting it's less than a couple hundred, total; but maybe {{u|S Marshall}} would help out, if it turns out to be more than that.)  Shouldn't be too hard to create such a list:
{{cot|title=pseudocode to generate a list of possible CXT clobbers}}
 # Print out names of Titles in CXT/PTR that may be clobbers of good, older articles. 
 # (Doesn't handle the case where oldest version is CXT, followed by user edits to make it good,
 #    followed by 2nd cxt later which clobbers the good version; but that's probably rare.)
 #
 For each item in WP:CXT/PTR list do:
   $line = text from next &lt;ol> item in list
   If the bracketed article title near the beginning of $line is within s-tags, next loop
   Extract $title from the $line
   If $title is not in article space, next loop
   Read Rev History of $title into array @RevHist
   Get $oldest_es = edit summary string of oldest version (last index in @RevHist)
   If 'ContentTranslation' is a substring of $oldest_es, next loop
   Pop @RevHist: drop oldest summary from @RevHist so it now contains all versions except the oldest one
   If 'ContentTranslation' is a substring of @RevHist viewed as a single string, do:
     Print "$title possibly clobbered by CXT"
 End For
{{cob}}
Are you able to create a list like this, or do you know someone who could?  Thanks, [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 21:56, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

*Why not just ask the deleting administrators to check the translation is the first revision before they push the button?—[[User:S Marshall|<span style="font-family:Verdana; color:maroon;">'''S Marshall'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 23:32, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
::That would be a shitton of work for the deleting admin.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 00:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
:::3.6 metric shit tonnes, to be exact. ;-)  And thanks for the [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Pages_created_versus_overwritten_by_the_content_creation_tool|ping]], Taz. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 01:56, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

{{ping|Tazerdadog}} I think I've maybe got your query: I see from Samtar's query that you use MySQL.  If that's the case, then to do this, I think you can take Samtar's [https://quarry.wmflabs.org/query/11275 query 11275] exactly as it is, with one more <code>WHERE</code> clause, to exclude the oldest revision:
: <code>AND WHERE rev.date > @MIN_REV_DATE</code>
where @MIN_REV_DATE is either separately selected and assigned to <s>a variable</s> <small><small>[as there would be one min value per title, it would have to either be an array variable or more likely a 2-col temp table with title and MIN date, which could be joined to rev.] Edited by [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 18:50, 19 May 2017 (UTC)</small></small>, or probably more efficiently, a subquery getting the oldest rev date for that page using standard "minimum value of a column" techniques.  So the result will be a subset of Samtar's original query, limited to cases where ct_tag was equal to 'ContentTranslation' somewhere other than in the oldest revision for that page. (By the way, I don't have access to your file structure, so I have no idea if 'rev.date' really exists, but what I mean by that, is the TIMESTAMP of that particular revision, whatever the field is really called.  Also, again depending on the file structure, you might need to use techqniques for [https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.7/en/example-maximum-column-group-row.html groupwise minimum of a column] to get the min rev date for each page.)  
[[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 03:09, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
:{{yo|Mathglot}}  Unfortunately, I've never used MySQL before.  I was hoping I could muddle through with some luck and googling, but I had no such luck.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 03:53, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
::{{re|Tazerdadog}} And I could totally do it if I had the file structure but I don't; but my strong hunch is that this is very easy, and needs one additional "WHERE" plus another query (probably the groupwise MIN thing) to grab the min value to exclude in the new WHERE.  OTOH, if you have access to Quarry, shoot me your query by email if you want, and I'll fix it up, and you can take that and try again, and with several back-and-forths I bet we can get it.  Or if you've got zip, I can try a few establishing queries for you to try, and then we can try to build the real one depending on the results you get from those. (Or, we can just wait for someone else to do it, if they will; it really should only take minutes.) [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 05:11, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

:::{{re|Tazerdadog|S Marshall}} I don't think this is getting enough attention, and your previous request appears to have stalled at [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Pages_created_versus_overwritten_by_the_content_creation_tool|V Pump]].  '''{{Red|This is not good}}'''.  We need to get this list.  Is there someone you can lean on, or request help from, to kick-start this?  Alternatively, if someone will give me access to Quarry, a MySQL account permitting <code>SELECT</code> and <code>CREATE TEMPORARY TABLE</code> (or even better, <code>MEMORY</code> table) and a pointer to the file structure descriptions, I can do this myself and create a list to protect these articles. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 06:32, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
::: *Bump* [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 18:19, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
{{od}}
Thanks, [[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] for <span class="plainlinks">[https://quarry.wmflabs.org/query/19060 db report 19060]</span>.  We now have the list of clobbers, and can attend to it.  Please see [[WP:CXT/PTR/Clobbers]]. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 05:18, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
===X2 Nuke time===
The time agreed on by consensus has passed over a month ago.  In the interest of getting things rolling again, here are the lists of articles to be draftified, and the list of articles we were able to retain.

{{cot|[[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/CXT/Draftification_list_July_2017|To be draftified]]}}
* see: [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/CXT/Draftification_list_July_2017]] 
{{cob}}
{{cot|[[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/CXT/Keep_list_July_2017|To be retained]]}}
* see: [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/CXT/Keep_list_July_2017]] 
{{cob}}

In the interest of making my work easy to check, here are the steps and regex I used to identify what should be draftified or retained:
{{cot|Technical regex stuff}}
<nowiki>
Working on the wikitext:
Plaintext find and replace <s>| with |<s>
Replace regular expression ^[^|].* with | (removing lines that do not start with a pipe, reducing the list to just the articles)
Plaintext replace | wit nothing
regex replace ^[\n\r]+ with nothing (remove blank lines)
plaintext replace ''' with nothing

For the to be draftified:

regex replace ^[<].* with nothing (remove strikeouts)
regex replace ^[\n\r]+ with nothing (remove blank lines)
Regex replace ]].* with ]] (remove everything after the first pair of closing square brackets)

For the to be retained:
regex replace ^[[].* with nothing (remove strikeouts)
regex replace ^[\n\r]+ with nothing (remove blank lines)
plaintext replace <s> with nothing
Find the string "kill", manually deal with any instances (only one used in the correct context was [[Gangsta Black]])

</nowiki>
{{cob}}

Pinging {{yo|MusikAnimal}}, who has a bot designed to move pages to draftspace en masse.  Also pinging {{yo|Mathglot}}, {{yo|SMarshall}}, {{yo|DGG}}, and {{yo|Cryptic}}.  Please ping anyone whom I have forgotten.

Cheers, [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:52, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

<small>Fixing ping {{yo|S Marshall}}</small> [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 23:54, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

:If there are no objections, can we get started on this {{yo|MusikAnimal}}?  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 01:43, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::{{yo|Tazerdadog}} I'll also wait just a tad bit to make sure there is no opposition. Correct me if I'm wrong, we want to do the same thing as last time –&nbsp;move to draft space without leaving a redirect, then deactivate the categories? Also, I need something to link to in the move summary. The page should clearly describe why we're doing this and that there was a relevant discussion, etc. Not sure if this discussion will suffice, but anyway lots of people were confused last time so the more clear we can be the better <span style="font-family:sans-serif">&mdash; <span style="font-weight:bold">[[User:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:black; font-style:italic">MusikAnimal</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]]</sup></span></span> 02:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Heh, scrolling up it looks like this is the right discussion to link to (via PermaLink). Please confirm :) <span style="font-family:sans-serif">&mdash; <span style="font-weight:bold">[[User:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:black; font-style:italic">MusikAnimal</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]]</sup></span></span> 02:20, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::::Should be the exact same as last time - move to draft space, and then deactivate the categories.  The above discussion is the appropriate one to link to.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 02:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
:::Despite a big review effort in May-June coordinated by {{U|Mathglot}} and {{U|Elinruby}}, which has saved about a third of the articles in question, we still stand to lose many babies in this bathwater. The intent [[Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Proposal_to_mark_X2_as_historical|still seems to be]] that mass-draftification will be quickly followed by mass-deletion. Now [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/CXT#Suggestion|the original discussion on X2]] was closed urging {{tq|a degree of caution ... Administrators must apply judgment and speedily delete only CXT articles that would obviously require more effort to fix than to start from scratch.}} However, this present talk of "nuking" suggests that little further review will be carried out before wielding X2. 
:::If this is the case we will be deleting articles such as [[Jessica Vall]], which has been ''extensively'' edited and expanded, leaving virtually nothing of what originally emerged from CXT. Other cases include [[Juana de la Concepción]], [[Isabel Hubard Escalera]], [[Pedro Pablo Oliva]]. They are now articles in clear English, well referenced and probably to certainly notable. Elinruby, you did a lot of work to improve [[Berta Cabral]], are you content to see it go down the pan? [[Domingo Pais]] is now a valid redirect; [[Aphelion (disambiguation)]] is a valid disambig page. Are we to condemn all these because of the circumstances of their birth?
:::Yes, the articles listed should be moved to draft space, which should allay any BLP concerns. Then, they should remain there until individually reviewed. Those still in garbled English (referring to people as "it" and so on), unreferenced or adverts, can then be tagged X2 without more ado. Those that competent editors have worked on and made into decent articles should be moved back to mainspace[[User:Noyster|: <b style="color:seagreen">Noyster</b>]] [[User talk:Noyster|<span style="color:seagreen"> (talk),</span> ]] 10:53, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
::::{{yo|Noyster}}  I am perfectly happy to leave the articles in draftspace indefinitely instead of deleting them.  However, it is time to get them out of mainspace.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 21:05, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Poking people on this, any objections before we move forward?  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 07:34, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{yo|Tazerdadog}} The "to be draftified" list above contains a lot of red links and redirects. I assume this is stale data? Should the redirects be moved along with the target, and the deleted pages simply skipped? <span style="font-family:sans-serif">&mdash; <span style="font-weight:bold">[[User:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:black; font-style:italic">MusikAnimal</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]]</sup></span></span> 01:10, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
::{{yo|MusikAnimal}}, the list I used was the master list located at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review]], and the list was taken from the wikitext at approximately the time I posted the list.  No effort was made to remove the red-linked pages in that list.  Redlinks should definitely just be skipped.  I think redirects should also be skipped, as they can't realistically be faulty translations.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 07:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
::::I am preoccupied with non-Wikipedia things at the moment and will be for several days more. Personally I think X2 is a huge mistake but I've been through the list thoroughly and though I am sure I have missed some good articles, since I found more every time I looked, I can't realistically commit right now to more than I have already committed to. So. My question is, how would I find these articles once they are in draft? <s>[[Berta Carbral]] was, as I recall, an Endo999 special</s> on kind of an important topic -- given the egregious errors I have found in some of his other work though, I can't really trust it without putting it under a microscope. Despite the previous work. I have enough going on with his articles on military fortifications, which I have said I would rescue. (And I really have to say that banning him would have made much mor sense than this ham-handed wholesale deletion. But I digress.) I can't really take the BLP claim seriously since the two articles out of the 3500 on the list that DID have BLP issues have been left to languish on the list. But ok. This was decided, albeit on the the basis of wildly exaggerated fears, and I guess we're doing it whether it's a good idea or not. [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 06:36, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::Correcting myself -- [[Berta Cabral]] was not created by Endo999, and as {{u|Noyster}} remarked, it's really not that bad, so I have pre-emptively moved it to my draft space, as it fits a category of article I have tried to fish out of this mess. I am fairly sure there are others that should not be deleted either, but just tell me how to find them and I guess we'll go from there. I do stand by my comments on Endo999 tho ;) [[User:Elinruby|Elinruby]] ([[User talk:Elinruby|talk]]) 06:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::When this mass move to draft space finally takes place, what I think should happen is that a list of articles moved will be retained and its location made known at least here and at [[WT:PNT]], with editors encouraged to continue reviewing them one by one. Editors having reviewed an article may then move it back to mainspace or tag X2, but no mass delete[[User:Noyster|: <b style="color:seagreen">Noyster</b>]] [[User talk:Noyster|<span style="color:seagreen"> (talk),</span> ]] 07:31, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
We will certainly widely publicize the location of the drafts once the move is made.  Are there any objections to proceeding with the move itself?  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 05:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{yo|MusikAnimal}}, do you have any concerns, or can we proceed with this? [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 06:28, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
::{{yo|Tazerdadog}} The BAG member who approved the last task has requested we create [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/MusikBot 12|another BRFA]] for record keeping. After a day or two of no opposition it should be speedily approved. Sorry I did not do this sooner! <span style="font-family:sans-serif">&mdash; <span style="font-weight:bold">[[User:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:black; font-style:italic">MusikAnimal</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]]</sup></span></span> 18:11, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Mathglot|Tazerdadog}} I'm quite late to the party, but was wondering how it was decided which articles should be kept and which should be draftified. Randomly spot checking the "draftify" articles, it seems that a lot of them are fine and would easily survive AfD (like [[Louise Grinberg]], [[Dorsaf Hamdani]], [[Léone Bertimon]]). In fact it even says that [[Léone Bertimon]] is an "OK article" at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review]]. If we're going to be removing potentially hundreds of good articles from Wikipedia, it seems like there should be a much bigger discussion about it than just 10 editors at Administrators' noticeboard. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 22:48, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Kaldari}} This all started just about a year ago, with [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/CXT|an extensive discussion]] when a special speedy deletion criterion X2 was established. All the pages within the purview of X2  [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/CXT/Pages_to_review|were listed]], and in a widespread review process many were indicated to be "saved" by striking out the titles on that list. However, by no means all the pages got reviewed: many still remain on the "nuke" list although they have been substantially improved since the original machine translation. Many others, however, have barely been touched and are undeniably terrible and arguably worse than absence of article.
::::As you can see above on the present page, earlier this year a proposal was made for mass deletion after a deadline for review, which slipped back several times. The intention then morphed into mass-draftify to be quickly followed by mass-deletion, and now seems to be a mass move into draft space where they shall remain indefinitely. The latest development, though, is a proposal at [[WT:Drafts]] to extend another speedy criterion, G13, to all drafts so they get automatically deleted after six months of inactivity. There seems no alternative but to continue to call for review of everything on this list, to select out those worth keeping before they get caught up in either X2 or G13[[User:Noyster|: <b style="color:seagreen">Noyster</b>]] [[User talk:Noyster|<span style="color:seagreen"> (talk),</span> ]] 19:40, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|Noyster}} So if I want to remove any articles from the Nuke list, what's the best way to do that? Just to delete them from the list above? It's too bad there wasn't a broader effort to invite editors to review the articles. I would have certainly been willing to help if I had known about it. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 19:02, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::{{ping|Kaldari}} You'd have to ask {{U|MusikAnimal}} whether the draftifying bot will be working on the list as we see it above, or on a copy stored somewhere else. A lot of effort actually went into the review in May/June, as you can see from the size of [[Wikipedia_talk:Administrators%27_noticeboard/CXT/Pages_to_review#Please_help_recruit_editors_for_Asian_and_other_languages|this subpage]]. Notifications went to many editors who were listed as translators, and over a third of articles were removed from the "nuke" list[[User:Noyster|: <b style="color:seagreen">Noyster</b>]] [[User talk:Noyster|<span style="color:seagreen"> (talk),</span> ]] 22:52, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::I can go off of that list but if you plan on working on those articles it might benefit us all to have a dedicated page somewhere, where you can remove them as needed. Or you can just move them back from draft to mainspace, up to you! I've no problem putting the bot task on hold <span style="font-family:sans-serif">&mdash; <span style="font-weight:bold">[[User:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:black; font-style:italic">MusikAnimal</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:MusikAnimal|<span style="color:green">talk</span>]]</sup></span></span> 01:37, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::{{ping|MusikAnimal|Kaldari}} I have moved the list of articles to be draftified over to [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Draftification list July 2017|this page]]. Suggest we use that page as our working list, removing any entries we don't want moved to draft[[User:Noyster|: <b style="color:seagreen">Noyster</b>]] [[User talk:Noyster|<span style="color:seagreen"> (talk),</span> ]] 09:24, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::Actually I think the move to draft space should proceed. After a year of intensive discussions and reviews it would scarcely be acceptable for the whole affair to peter out with no action taken; and a good many of the pages are better removed from mainspace. Those that are now OK can be moved back as you say, and others can be tagged X2 after a final review[[User:Noyster|: <b style="color:seagreen">Noyster</b>]] [[User talk:Noyster|<span style="color:seagreen"> (talk),</span> ]] 14:37, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::{{ping|MusikAnimal|Noyster}} I removed a few articles worth saving from [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Draftification list July 2017]], including ''[[Madonna with Machine Gun]]''! [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] ([[User talk:Kaldari|talk]]) 15:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::{{yo|Kaldari}} Do you speak the source languages for the articles you removed from the list?  A lot of these articles have prose that looks fine, and makes them appear to be notable, but contain serious translation errors (ommitted negatives are common, one had somebody married to the wrong person, etc.)  I'm sure that you can see why a missing negative can quickly ruin an entire article,  so I urge cautious checking of the translation/sources.  I'd further ask that you restore to the list any articles where you could not or did not check the translation/foreign language sourcing (and heartily apologise if you did check all of the translations).  

::::::::::{{yo|Noyster}}, please be careful that we do not end up forking the [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review|pages to review page]].  It doesn't take me particularly long to generate an updated list, but working on multiple lists at once could quickly become a nightmare.  [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 01:14, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
{{outdent}}{{ping|Tazerdadog}} After you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=789694468&oldid=789674616 placed the lists on this main AN page] on 9 July with the words "Here are the lists of articles to be draftified", wasn't this intended to become the working list? However, I see that [[WP:CXT/PTR]] has attracted a couple of edits since that date, so I suggest that [[WP:CXT/PTR]] now be marked as historical, with a notice directing editors for now to [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Draftification list July 2017|the "draftification list"]], and after draftification has been implemented, to whatever list of draftified pages is produced[[User:Noyster|: <b style="color:seagreen">Noyster</b>]] [[User talk:Noyster|<span style="color:seagreen"> (talk),</span> ]] 12:37, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{yo|Noyster}} I expected this process to take days, not weeks :/.  I honestly don't care which list is used, as long as everyone agrees on it.  I'd go ahead and mark one of the pages as historical.[[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 15:34, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
::{{Done}} [[WP:CXT/PTR]][[User:Noyster|: <b style="color:seagreen">Noyster</b>]] [[User talk:Noyster|<span style="color:seagreen"> (talk),</span> ]] 15:22, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Having rescued perhaps a hundred articles, translated from a variety of languages, I can't resist the impression that we've tackled this the wrong way round. Concerns of mis-translation are mostly a red herring – for a good part, the tool was used properly by the editors, many of whom seem bilingual, and for another part many articles contained simple statements of fact that would be hard to mis-translate even by a tool. Quality-wise, this is a mixed bag, but average quality of those articles resembles the average that you would get by perusing the "random article" feature. Mis-translation was the least of most articles' problems – undersourcing is the most common one, on par with the average; even if we verify that the translation was correct, it is hard to check if the original content faithfully resembles the sources. This cross-checking was tedious and understaffed, and as the final result we are supposed to prune nearly two thousand articles, many of them about important figures from less-attended countries, just because nobody got to review them properly, reinforcing the systemic bias. Don't know, take [[Amina Belouizdad]] as an example – an important figure in human rights from Algeria, and created by sockpuppet [[User:Duckduckstop]] to boot. Rather than [[WP:AGF|assuming good faith]] that the authors and translators have done the due diligence, as for any other article, we passed the onus of keeping the CXT articles to a small group of volunteers. Let's face it, the draftified articles are going to sit there for eternity, as it's unlikely that they will find rescuers any time soon. I'm not going to stop you in that process, but I feel appropriate to express my frustration at this moment. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user|talk]]) 11:42, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
== AIV Backlog ==
{{Archive top|reason=Cleared to normal levels. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 19:25, 27 August 2017 (UTC)}}
There is currently a large backlog at [[WP:AIV]]; a few extra pairs of eyes would be appreciated. Thanks, [[User talk:Fastily|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:Indigo;font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-size:120%;">F</span><span style="font-size:90%;">ASTILY</span></span>]] 09:59, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}
===Backlogged again===
{{atop|Cleared again. [[User:Cyp|Κσυπ ''Cyp'']] [[User talk:Cyp|&nbsp;]] 08:14, 28 August 2017 (UTC)}}
AIV is backlogged again. [[User:EvergreenFir|'''<span style="color:#8b00ff;">Eve</span><span style="color:#6528c2;">rgr</span><span style="color:#3f5184;">een</span><span style="color:#197947;">Fir</span>''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] 07:09, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Requesting closure review ==

Would an administrator please review the closure of [[Talk:Westworld (TV series)#RfC on Potential Spoilers]], which ended in "no consensus" after only 6 days and while the discussion was still ongoing? The issue concerns the interpretation of Wikipedia guidelines and if the issue remains open without a clear answer, it is very likely that the content dispute will perpetuate. -- <span style="padding-left:.5em; padding-right:.5em; background:#9DF3A7; border:1px solid black; font-family:Consolas; font-size:12pt">[[User:Radiphus|<span style="color:#000000;">'''Radiphus'''</span>]]</span> 12:36, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
:I'm on mobile but this isn't a great close. It's by the person who started the RfC very early on and after he participated via comments. If I were at my computer, I'd overturn it in my capacity as an uninvolved admin. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 12:46, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
::As stated elsewhere, discussion was not ongoing and had stalled for three days. Despite all the commentary about concerns with interpreting Wikipedia guidelines, you have yet to point out exactly which guideline I misinterpreted. This is important because I advised everyone to adhere to policy as it stood since there was no consensus. There hasn't been consensus in the multiple discussions:
:::* [[Talk:Westworld (TV series)/Archive 1#Notes concerning spoilers in the cast list]] <!--'''Outcome'''--> November 2016
:::* [[Talk:Westworld (TV series)/Archive 1#unbelievable.]] <!--'''Outcome'''--> November 2016 to February 2017
:::* [[Talk:Westworld (TV series)/Archive 1#Spoiler policy reminder]] <!--'''Outcome'''--> December 2016 to February 2017
:::* [[Talk:Westworld (TV series)#Edit to clean up character bios]] <!--'''Outcome'''--> December 2016 to August 2017
:::* [[Talk:Westworld (TV series)#Bernard Low being a host, is not a spoiler.]] <!--'''Outcome'''--> March 2017 to August 2017
:::* [[Talk:Westworld (TV series)#Bernard is NOT a Host and it shouldn't be in the Cast section]] <!--'''Outcome'''--> August 2017
:::* [[Talk:Westworld (TV series)#RfC on Potential Spoilers]] <!--'''Outcome'''--> August 2017 
::So what I advised others to do was to take it in a case-by-case basis as policy does not (and ''cannot'') speak to each and every case of spoiler-type information that may come up. This had ''already begun'' on the page (by none other than you) and I felt that was a more appropriate avenue to reaching an amicable consensus than a general RfC. {{ping|BU Rob13}} I was not involved in the discussion before or after. Also, see [[WP:CLOSE]] and [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 12#Review]]. You actually need a reason to close other than "I am an admin." Thanks. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 12:58, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

* I have reverted the closure. While it is recommended that this be brought to AN on [[WP:CLOSE]], there is no explicit prohibition against a non-admin reopening, and while reopening of deletion discussions is left to an uninvolved admin at [[WP:BADNAC]], this is not a deletion discussion, and the closure was clearly inappropriate given that the editor both opened and participated in the discusison. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|<span style="color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;">Timothy</span><span style="color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;">Joseph</span><span style="color:#422501;font-family:Impact;">Wood</span>]] 13:02, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
::As stated elsewhere, I opened the RfC as a neutral third party and made a comment as a devil's advocate. I expressed no opinion. So please stop being disruptive. Thanks. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 13:05, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
:::You opened and participated in the RfC. You should therefore not close it. That's basically the end of the discussion. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|<span style="color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;">Timothy</span><span style="color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;">Joseph</span><span style="color:#422501;font-family:Impact;">Wood</span>]] 13:07, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Again, I was not involved. Second, no where does it say the RfC cannot be closed by the opener, especially since I had no dog in the fight to begin with. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 13:08, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::You opened and participated in the discussion. This makes you involved. This is not a particularly difficult concept. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|<span style="color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;">Timothy</span><span style="color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;">Joseph</span><span style="color:#422501;font-family:Impact;">Wood</span>]] 13:10, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::{{ec}} Still waiting for you to point me to which policy was violated. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 13:14, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
*{{U|Nihlus Kryik}} is now edit-warring to restore his clearly inappropriate close of his own RFC. Nihlus, please stop; you can't close your own RfC, and an active RfC should run for the full 30 days. After 30 days, let someone completely uninvolved, preferably an admin, close it. [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 13:13, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
**And you are misusing your rollback. Also, I did not edit war as I made two reverts. But thanks for the false report. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 13:14, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I had wished that if someone reverted my close they would do so because my reasoning was not accurate, not because they wish to get involved themselves ([[WP:NEEDSMOARDRAMA]]) and revert on ridiculous procedural grounds like this is a courtroom or something. Anyway, have at it. I'm done with this conversation. —&nbsp;[[User:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-weight:bold; font-family:Segoe Script; color:red;">nihlus kryik</span>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;([[User talk:Nihlus Kryik|<span style="font-family:Segoe Script; color:silver;">talk</span>]]) 13:38, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
:Please read [[WP:RFCEND]]. -- [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 14:45, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

==Please look==
Would some admin look into [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:50.51.23.174] and try to figure out what the article talk page creations and content additions are. Joke or something else? Thanks. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:55, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
:Looks like they were hoaxes. The talk pages I deleted as G8, other edits were reverted and have warned the IP. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 15:59, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

== Move review backlog ==

We have a substantial backlog now at [[Wikipedia:Move review]] so I would ask for an admin to help clear it up. It's kind of disheartening to have unresolved issues there lurking so long (and a couple are rather pressing). Thanks in advance. [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user|talk]]) 09:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

:I've done a couple of the oldest ones but I'm out of time now.  I'll try to get back to it later today.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 10:52, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

::And another.  The only stale one left only had four participants - and part of the complaint about the original RM was that it had only three participants.  I've commented; if others could also take a look, that'd be grand.  [[User:GoldenRing|GoldenRing]] ([[User talk:GoldenRing|talk]]) 20:06, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Clear}}
==Need help==
{{resolved|Someone took care of it. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 13:03, 30 August 2017 (UTC)}}
I have Administrators create an wikidata item for the article "[[Dedicated Music Award]]" and link this article to [[:vi:Giải thưởng Âm nhạc Cống hiến|Giải thưởng Âm nhạc Cống hiến]] in viwiki. Thank you very much! [[User:Mintu Martin|Mintu Martin]] ([[User talk:Mintu Martin|talk]]) 10:35, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

== "You messed up" notifications ==

Please see the ''Administrator "you messed up" notifications'' section of [[WP:BOTR]], where I've proposed that we get a bot to pester an admin who leaves a block notice without blocking the user, and please offer your opinions on whether it's a good idea or not.  I've requested this because in the last ten days I've twice done this, and being bot-pestered would have been helpful.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 01:34, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:Seems to me that only admins would know if this is a useful thing or not, so as a non-admin, I won't be commenting -- but, in my opinion, if you guys want it, you should have it. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 02:50, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
::<s>I think it should also work in reverse, blocking without a notice.</s>  - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:FlightTime|<span style="color:#800000">'''FlightTime'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:FlightTime|<span style="color:#FFD700">'''open channel'''</span>]])</small></span> 02:59, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:::There are rare occasions where a user is blocked without being tagged, mainly in cases of some long term vandals on the basis of [[WP:DENY]]. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 03:04, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
::::It would be particularly problematic at [[User talk:ProcseeBot]]; it's a [[WP:SPA]] that never does anything except making 2.4 million blocks — it got promoted to admin without ever making a single edit, before or since :-)  It's a bot that simply blocks open proxies and doesn't leave a block message, so you can imagine how much of a mess its talk page would be if we had a bot that notified you when you don't leave a notice.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 05:13, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::<small>That awkward moment when a bot will have to use {{tl|nobots}}. Regards, — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:royalblue; font-family: Segoe Script">Moe</span>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:royalblue; font-family: Segoe Script">Epsilon</span>]] 05:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
::::Isn't the conversation here on unblocked users with block notices from admins? [[User:RileyBugz|<span style="color:#2D3D67;">RileyBugz</span>]][[User talk:RileyBugz|<sup style="color:#D7000B;">会話</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/RileyBugz|<sub style="color:#D7000B;">投稿記録</sub>]] 15:19, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Not just unblocked but not-blocked.  It's fine if the block expires or gets removed; the problem is when someone leaves a block message but forgets to block the user.  As you can see from my BOTR request, I've done this twice just recently, and it would have been quite helpful if there had been a bot to pester me.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 21:26, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::{{ping|Nyttend}} - block first, message later. {{smiley|grin}} [[User:Mjroots|Mjroots]] ([[User talk:Mjroots|talk]]) 20:24, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::But as noted at BOTR, problems arise if you block and forget to leave a message (or you [[Person from Porlock|get impeded while writing]]), and aside from no-message-needed situations, e.g. obvious disruptive sockpuppets, I don't want to block anyone without giving a message.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 21:02, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::::Use Twinkle's block function which automatically leaves a generic "you have been blocked for ''reason''" template message at the moment of blocking, tailored to the reason for blocking ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:DonaldTrumpIsTheWorst&diff=prev&oldid=797363846 example])—you can then go back and manually edit the message if you feel they need a specific explanation, but it means they always get something unless you specifically choose not to notify them. I doubt I've used the Mediawiki block interface for a decade; Twinkle has its faults, but blocking is one area where the interface is undoubtedly superior.&nbsp;&#8209;&nbsp;[[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 17:15, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' but only for the block notice done without a block. The other way around has several reasons for not notifying.  Must of my blocks are for robots that don't read a potential notice for example. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 00:36, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

== [[User:Ryathoma]] ==

This is for administrative attention, possibly no action being required.  [[User:Ryathoma]] has been persistently creating sub-stub articles on [[Columbia Pictures]] movies from the 1920s and 1930s, containing no information other than the name and date of the film.  He has been repeatedly warned, and was twice blocked, first for two days, then for seven days, by administrator [[User:Bongwarrior]].  Some of the stubs were nominated for deletion, and consensus was that they can be retained if they are expanded minimally (e.g., a reference and naming the star) or moved to draft space.  I have moved some of them to draft space now that he came off block briefly.  He has now been indeffed by Bongwarrior.  I don't think that any action is required, but am posting here for information.  [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 04:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

:Someone is trying to improve the encyclopedia by adding content contributions and your response, instead of welcoming a newbie and explaining how the system works here, to warn and block? For creating substubs? I'm glad you posted it here so maybe we can have a community conversation about why our community is shrinking and why people don't think contributing here sounds like a fun activity. '''[[User:Andrevan|Andrevan]]'''[[User_talk:Andrevan|@]] 05:10, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
:::First, I assume that [[User:Andrevan]] knows that I am only the messenger and one of the members of the cleanup crew without a mop.  His talk page will show that various editors spent considerable time trying to discuss his stubs with him.  He has never replied on talk pages.  We have tried reasoning with him.  I agree that he was trying to improve the encyclopedia by adding content.  I think that he wasn't improving the encyclopedia with his sub-stubs.  I agree that it is worth discussing what to do about eccentric editors who are obviously trying to help and are not helping.  [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 05:28, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Agree with [[User:Robert McClenon|The McClenon]] here. The editor in question has been here [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=1&username=Ryathoma nearly three weeks], has a talk page with about 40~50 non-automated messages on it, ''and in their time here'' has made '''zero''' edits to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Ryathoma&namespace=1&tagfilter=&start=&end= Talk] space and '''zero''' to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Ryathoma&namespace=3&tagfilter=&start=&end= User talk]. That is not an editor behaving in a collaborative manner, and there is only so much aid you can give those who do not wish to let themselves be aided. It's pretty poor, actually, to accuse other editors of contributing to a (so-called) failure of editor retention when in fact it would seem that numerous editors have devoted time and energy (our two most precious resouces, etc.) to trying to ''keep'' the editor on-board. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 13:51, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

::And the user is now blocked. If they respond the block and understand '''why''' they were blocked (and promise not to continue and improve their creations) then there's no issue. Or maybe Andrevan has helped talking to the user, explaining the concerns and has fleshed out a stub to show them what to do? But I'm guessing that hasn't happened. '''[[User:Lugnuts|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Lugnuts</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Lugnuts|Fire Walk with Me]]</sup> 16:17, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Indeed, {{u|Lugnuts}}, there was an unfortunate sense of inevitability about that. Curiously- and purely a technical matter- the log, etc., shows them as being blocked about 04:40 this morning- but I'm sure they weren't blocked when I posted a few hours ago! Otherwise, my comment would have been pretty different I guess. Odd! &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 17:28, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
*Someone might want to try emailing them (if possible) - after running a training session with two people recently who had been editing wikipedia for weeks, and had zero clue on what a usertalk page was, how to find it, or that anyone might contact them on it. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 19:37, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

== Add the Logged in Protection level ==
{{archive top|Present on VPPRO. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 13:13, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

...where the sock-master of the proposer was identified and the range reblocked. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|talk]]) 06:51, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
}}
Create Logged-in Protection level ([[File:Padlock-hotpink.svg|23px]]), which only allows any registered user to edit. Newly-registered users will be able to edit pages with this level. 
If there is high vandalism from IPs, use logged-in protection.
If there is severe vandalism from IPs and any high vandalism from new users, use semi-protection.
However, users can request it if the vandalism came from IPs.
Please do it. [[Special:Contributions/2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:B4|2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:B4]] ([[User talk:2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:B4|talk]]) 00:05, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
It will use the "Edit=Require registered editor access". [[Special:Contributions/2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:C5|2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:C5]] ([[User talk:2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:C5|talk]]) 10:30, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
:Not likely to be  of much use, as it takes less than a minute to create an account. However, even if it was a good idea, this would be the wrong place - try at [[WP:VPR|the Village Pump/Proposals page]]. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 10:35, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

I've already asked in the right page. [[Special:Contributions/2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:C5|2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:C5]] ([[User talk:2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:C5|talk]]) 11:19, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Update and discussion about the new User Mute features ==

[[File:Light-Bulb_icon_by_Till_Teenck_green.svg|link=https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Light-Bulb_icon_by_Till_Teenck_green.svg|center]]
Hello Wikipedians, 

The Anti-harassment Tools team invites you to check out new [[Wikipedia:Community health initiative on English Wikipedia/User Mute features|User Mute features]] under development and to give us feedback.  Join our discussion [[Wikipedia talk:Community health initiative on English Wikipedia#Update and request for feedback about User Mute features|here]] about uses and potential improvements. 

For the Anti-harassment tools team, [[User:SPoore (WMF)|SPoore (WMF), Community Advocate, Community health initiative]] ([[User talk:SPoore (WMF)|talk]]) 22:02, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

:I just noticed this by chance, but feel a very strong urge to warn against a notorious and resilient behaviour of these "Anti-Harrassment" activists, hiding behind the positively connoted term ''health'', to "mute" any opinion they perceive as possible endangering their claims to maximize power for their agenda and conceivabilities. Even when being twice(!) in '''top-ranked''' position (by community!), my contributions were '''muted''' by the top-level agents of this Anti-xyz.
:En.WP with all its fights of bureaucrats against productive editors (in both directons!) is a highly welcoming place, compared to these ganged up social justice warriors, striving for their ultimate vulnerability to achieve ultimate lordship. [[User:Purgy Purgatorio|Purgy]] ([[User talk:Purgy Purgatorio|talk]]) 08:31, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::Huh? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 08:51, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Most odd. -[[User:Roxy the dog|'''Roxy''' the dog.]] [[User talk:Roxy the dog|'''bark''']] 08:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::: I don't understand that comment at all, either, and I add my own "huh?" and "most odd". I do see a certain potential for this "feature" to become a new source of petty bickering over "who muted who, and how would I know that if I wasn't informed?" though. Also, if a genuinely harassed user might, in future be told to "just mute them" instead of having possibly valid concerns dealt with properly, then that would not be a good thing. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> [[User talk:Begoon|Begoon]]</span> 09:36, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Attempted translation of the "huh" comment: "While enwiki is often a drama cesspit, it is a much better environment compared to meta, mediawiki, phabricator, ... where an incrowd of WMF employees and hangers-on creates a fake "safe space" where they effectively mute every dissenting voice or potentially upsetting opinion on spurious grounds; and this new tool is the first step in their attempt to push their vision and dictatorship on enwiki as well". While some people at meta and phabicator and the like display this behaviour, it seems quite a stretch to paint them all with the same brush and to dismiss this tool immediately for that reason (although I can't see me ever using it and it has clear problems). There are some highly problematic (WMF)-labeled editors, but there are highly friendly and helpful ones as well. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 09:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::In that context I "understand" the comment a little better. Thanks for explaining that. I remain concerned about the "clear problems", a couple of which I mentioned. Seems to me there might be other issues I missed, too - I haven't read everything deeply yet, and may comment further once I have. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> [[User talk:Begoon|Begoon]]</span> 09:57, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::@Begoon: That is a good point. Please add it [[WT:Community health initiative on English Wikipedia/User Mute features|here]]. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 09:52, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::: Done: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Community_health_initiative_on_English_Wikipedia/User_Mute_features&diff=797816946&oldid=797810267] --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> [[User talk:Begoon|Begoon]]</span> 10:05, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
{{od}}I am sorry for having created so many "huh"s and even "most odd"s, but I did not want to bore you more with details of me encountering WMF-officials and of how they treat statements, which do not fit in their -meanwhile quite durable and dangerously rolling- bubble, even when those statements are acclaimed by a seizable majority. Fram coined this in his translation quite to the point, which lets me breathe again, for having seen someone, who is not only able, but also shows his willingness, to understand my quirky writings. BTW, I do share his appreciation -expressed in the second part of his comment- of some selected guys, here and there and everywhere, and also, BTW, I do not want to object to you suggesting improvements to a project with a roll out in a few days. [[User:Purgy Purgatorio|Purgy]] ([[User talk:Purgy Purgatorio|talk]]) 12:07, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:Sometimes I wonder how many instances of people seeing a bubble are actually people seeing others ... outside of a bubble of their own. Or maybe they received blow-back for having a poorly thought out opinion. That's only working off my personal experience, which probably is not representative at all. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]], [[Special:CentralAuth/Jo-Jo Eumerus|contributions]]) 15:10, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

==Request for uninvolved admin participation==
{{atop|Already requested above, plus a thread at [[WP:ANRFC]]. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 18:23, 29 August 2017 (UTC)}}
:::''This request is also contained in the above discussion under [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Request_for_administrator_involvement|this link]] (currently section 5.13).'' [[User:Purgy Purgatorio|Purgy]] ([[User talk:Purgy Purgatorio|talk]]) 12:20, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

The thread above [[#Willfull and persistent disruption of Draft space by TakuyaMurata|"Willfull and persistent disruption of Draft space by TakuyaMurata"]] has been open for about 2 weeks, and seems not to be heading towards any kind of resolution between the disputants.  Could an uninvolved admin please take a look at it and take whatever action they deem is appropriate? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 21:15, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Disruptive editors at [[Hurricane Harvey]] ==

{{atop|<small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> Page is now under discretionary sanctions. Further discussion at [[Talk:Hurricane Harvey]] is encouraged. [[User:Power~enwiki|Power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|talk]]) 01:09, 30 August 2017 (UTC)}}
The article, which is a current event has a small section on environmental factors/climate connections, sourced from the ongoing coverage in reliable sources, and this section was edited by multiple users such as me, {{user|Dave souza}}, {{user|DSmurf}}, {{user|DSmurf}}, {{user|Maltrópa}}, {{user|William M. Connolley}}. Additional {{user|Nigelj}}, {{user|Drmies }} and several others took part on the related talk page discussions. 
However, yesterday, on the talk page discussions started in regards to notability, which was established - see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hurricane_Harvey#Event_attribution Event attribution]. Besides clear notability (literally all the mainstream news run stories with Harvey and climate), editor {{user|Jdcomix}} and {{user|MarioProtIV}} removed the entire section, arguing the content was fringe. In response I started a sort of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hurricane_Harvey#Should_the_article_include_mention_of_climate_connections.3F consensus finding vote for inclusion], which was established. 

However, today editor {{user|Knowledgekid87}} and {{user|Guy Macon}} argue the section does not meet notability, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&oldid=797854098 here], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&oldid=797850645 here] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&oldid=797847971 here] - adding (and re-adding) NPOV-UNDUE tag into article space. Additional, {{user|Knowledgekid87}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&type=revision&diff=797852207&oldid=797851021 rewrote section content] and inserted weasel words (is opinion, removal of key words like attribution). Asked on the talk page what the problem exactly is, he claims, quote ''I respectfully disagree as this is a political issue'', and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hurricane_Harvey#Environmental_factors_undue_issue is citing FOX News as a source] for his claims. Other users, and above mentioned admins tried to reason with the editors in the mentioned talk page topics, ie. is not fringe or undue. All four users {{user|Jdcomix}}, {{user|MarioProtIV}}, {{user|Guy Macon}}, and {{user|Knowledgekid87}} were notified on their talk page that the topic of climate change involves arbcom discretionary sanctions. Because this is a current developing event article, and because editors were warned, I suggest to article ban these users for a week. [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 15:56, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' I will wait for other editors to weigh in but I feel that [[WP:BOOMERANG]] and not assuming good faith should be addressed. This user has broken [[WP:1RR]] (If it applies) for the article in addition to refusing to mention my edit summaries. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 15:59, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*Since I feel obligated to respond to this, firstly, [[WP:AGF]] needs to be applied from everyone here. There's an element of [[WP:BOOMERANG]] as well, as Knowledgekid pointed out, though I don't feel the need to expand on it any further. I wasn't the one who added in the undue tags, I didn't do anything else regarding that section of the article after the debate on the talk page, neither did MarioProtIV. [[User:Jdcomix|Jdcomix]] ([[User talk:Jdcomix|talk]]) 16:03, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::For reference, JDcomix edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&oldid=797694949 Take to talk, bordering on WP:FRINGE] [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 16:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::This was **before** I participated in the talk page discussion. I said that after I participated in the discussion, no further edits were made to the climate change section. [[User:Jdcomix|Jdcomix]] ([[User talk:Jdcomix|talk]]) 16:11, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:*I added an undue tag but it had nothing to do with the inclusion of the other material. I made a suggestion on the talk-page before taking any action in regards to expanding the section with balanced coverage. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 16:05, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::*You don't need to defend yourself, I wasn't attacking you. :) [[User:Jdcomix|Jdcomix]] ([[User talk:Jdcomix|talk]]) 16:08, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::*I know, it was an offshoot thought. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 16:08, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*Of these I have only dealt with Guy Macon, and my input has been minimal, but enough to be profoundly displeased with their way of editing--more bull in a china shop than collaboration. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 16:32, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Drmies: for what it's worth, that has not been my experience. (And yes, you are a great editor, worthy of the Drmies barnstar!) --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 18:57, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:I'm gonna comment here and say I pretty much have the same say as {{ping|Jdcomix}}, since I only did one edit regarding the "fringe" claim, and did nothing afterwards. I just felt the climate change stuff was a bit borderline on undue weight/fringe so that's why I did that. And honestly, article banning is unnecessary because as far as I know, Jd, Knowledge, me and Guy all are great editors and they've honestly haven't done anything else wrong AFAIK ([[WP:AGF]] basically). --'''''[[User:MarioProtIV|MarioProtIV]]''''' (<sup>[[User talk:MarioProtIV|talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/MarioProtIV|contribs]]</sub>) 17:04, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:*Well, I can't speak for all the others, but ain't I a great editor? [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 17:06, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::*Yes. <small>*'''Hands editor of the minute award'''*</small> - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 17:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*Crosslink to [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Is_this_something_ANI_can_handle.2C_or_should_I_go_straight_to_AE.3F]] for them what care [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ&nbsp;Keeper]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Writ Keeper|&#9863;]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|&#9812;]] 17:08, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

*I'm not seeing any conduct to warrant <s>blocks</s> bans. There is a dispute over the content and that is being resolved or ought be resolved in the normal course of editing and by discussion on the article talk page. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 17:11, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:: Problem, is if the editor is not taking part in the normal course/discussion (and as outlined above) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hurricane_Harvey#NPOV_tag ps. suggested was a wee long article ban. [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 17:22, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

:{{reply|User:Malcolmxl5}} Im not sure how I even got dragged into this mess. I saw the NPOV tag on the article and chose to move it to the disputed section [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&diff=797850645&oldid=797848551] where I was abruptly reverted by Prokaryotes [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&diff=797850852&oldid=797850645]. He then removed the tag while I took the issue to the talk-page where he asked "what problem". [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hurricane_Harvey&diff=797851053&oldid=797851000][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hurricane_Harvey&diff=797851647&oldid=797851053]. Assuming the issue had been resolved I went about fixing up the section where I was reverted again... [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&diff=797852690&oldid=797852207]. I reverted back asking to take the issue to the talk-page (which he never did) and cited [[WP:BABY]] in fixing the assumed issue: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&diff=797853067&oldid=797852690][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&diff=797853256&oldid=797853067]. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 17:27, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::Yes, what is the problem with the section? [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 17:32, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Hold on, you didn't ask that. You removed the NPOV tag from the top of the page while I was asking what specific problem the article had. Slapping an NPOV tag at the top of an article makes things too broad. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 17:34, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::  You wrote, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hurricane_Harvey#NPOV_tag ''Having the tag at the top of the article does little to address the specific problem.''] So I ask you now, what is the specific problem, and while at it, why inject words like '''opinion'''? And also reply to this at the talk page, so I can respond to you over there, to resolve the issue. [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 17:37, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Sorry if I'm not clear. You undid my edit where I moved the NPOV tag from the top of the article to the section about climate change. I was asking you why you did that? - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 17:39, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::I already sumed up the edits on your talk page [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Knowledgekid87#Your_edits_at_Hurricane_Harvey .. unresponsive at your own talk page section, adding uncalled notifications, adding weasel - misleading language into content] [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 17:44, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::You didn't answer my question. The addition of weasel wording can always be fixed and is a separate issue from the NPOV tag. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 17:47, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
* (Oops, I should have said 'ban' and not 'blocks'. :) ) Can you talk over the NPOV issues on the talk page and reach consensus? Is that happening? The placement of the tag is a lesser concern really. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 17:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::As far as I can tell the NPOV issue has been resolved as Prokaryotes removed the tag, I don't know what more is to be done here. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 17:50, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::'''For reference Knowledgekid87''' '''added a NPOV''' here (still part of the article, and is not responding to questions why he added it) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurricane_Harvey&type=revision&diff=797854098&oldid=797853812 Undue weight tag added, I will be taking the issue to the talkpage.] [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 17:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::I addressed this separate issue above in saying I am looking for more balanced opinions by expanding the section. Anyways I have to go offline now I wish you well but I can say I am a bit upset that you wouldn't [[WP:AGF]]. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 17:58, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::If you do not respond to my questions here, or at the section you have created to discuss specifically NPOV, not citing any reason for tagging, then it is hard to assume AGF. Science is not about opinions, hence your reasoning on this particular topic is flawed, and ignoring questions can be perceived as rude. [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 18:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

===Convenience break for section editing===
I do not see any possible path to agreement with, for example, Prokaryotes. I want to follow the best available source (the Draft National Climate Assessment, section 9.2) that clearly says:

:''"Detection and attribution of past changes in tropical cyclone (TC) behavior remain a challenge ... there is still low confidence that any reported long-term (multidecadal to centennial) increases in TC are robust... This is not meant to imply that no such increases in TC activity have occurred, but rather that the data are not of a high enough quality to determine this with much confidence. Furthermore, it has been argued that within the period of highest data quality (since around 1980) the globally observed changes in the environment would not necessarily support a detectable trend of tropical cyclone intensity (Kossin et al. 2013). That is, the trend signal has not had time to rise above the background variability of natural processes."''[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/07/climate/document-Draft-of-the-Climate-Science-Special-Report.html]

Prokaryotes insists on removing any content that reflects the above source. He also rejects the EPA as a source, which came to the same conclusion:

:''The total number of hurricanes  and the number reaching the United States do not indicate a clear overall trend since 1878"'' and ''"changes in observation methods over time make it difficult to know whether tropical storm activity has actually shown an increase over time."'' [https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-tropical-cyclone-activity]

A content dispute becomes a matter for AN when an editor refuses to accept a reliable source or to present a reasonable argument other that "I don't like it" for rejecting the source. I believe that this is the case here. It isn't NPOV to reject the best available sources because of ideology. Normally we see these sources being rejected by the "it's all a huge fraud" fringe theorists. but here we see the same sources rejected by "everything bad is cause by global warming" fringe theorists. The mainstream scientific view is that science does not know the answer to this one. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 18:20, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

:The NCS certainly a solid source, but concluding based on one cited study from 2013 presents today's mainstream view seems like too much emphasis to me. Anyway, i didn't saw any RS bring this particular study result up during the Harvey coverage. [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 18:33, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

::I have so far provided the following sources (see [[Talk:Hurricane Harvey#National Climate Assessment]]):
::* The New York times
::* The United States Environmental Protection Agency
::* The Draft National Climate Assessment
::* National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory
::* Nature Geoscience
::* Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Natural Hazard Science
::How many citations to reliable sources will it take? A hundred? A thousand? I have yet to see a single argument saying that any of the sources I am citing are unreliable.

::In my opinion, Prokaryotes should be topic-banned from the area of climate change for refusing to follow the sources. --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 20:46, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

* [[Climate change]] as a topic is under [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change Discretionary Sanctions]; an uninvolved admin should probably formally place the DS warning on the [[Hurricane Harvey]] talk page. [[User:Power~enwiki|Power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|talk]]) 21:18, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*: I went ahead and tagged the talk page. [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]])</sup> 21:35, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*::Someone explain to me how the ''New York Times'' is a reliable source for climatology?  What scholars in the field rely on its assessments?  As initial news reports in a disaster are routinely wrong, we should trust its initial reports in '''nothing''', unless in the future when we have a bit saying "Initial reports concluded X, but officials a month later concluded Y".  Only solid scientific and major governmental sources, like NOAA, the EPA, or this Oxford encyclopedia, should be used in this situation.  Moreover, scientific studies of climate change in general have no business being presented in this specific article; it would be overkill to put such a thing in every single article on recent tropical storms, and there's no reason to put such content in this article without putting it into [[Tropical Storm Patty (2012)]] as well, while anything beyond general stuff from general sources is [[WP:SYNTH]].  Put general stuff into articles on the subject of climate change and tropical storms; the only way we should have climate-change-related coverage in an individual storm article is if some of these climatologists study the relationship between climate change and the specific storm covered by the article.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 22:10, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::''The New York Times''' is generally considered a reliable source because it has "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." ([[WP:RS]])  This doesn't mean that the reporters who write articles for the ''Times'' on climate change are themselves experts, but it does mean that they are expected to consult with experts and accurately report what they say, and the newspaper is expected to fact check their writing before publication, or publish corrections if errors are discovered after the fact. '''''That''''' is what makes ''The New York Times'' a reliable source for climatology. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 00:17, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Generally for climate articles the standard is peer reviewed study. The scientists which are quoted in NYT, WAPO, The Guardian etc, during an event like Harvey coverage, are usually authors of the most reputable, most cited peer reviewed studies. [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 22:21, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Precisely.  A column by one of these scientists, not being peer-reviewed, is less than ideal, and a column by someone with nothing more than a journalism degree is much worse: we can't trust a guy with a BA in journalism to give a full and comprehensive treatment of the non-peer-reviewed statement, placing it in precisely the context meant by the statement's author.  One problem with the climatologist's non-peer-reviewed statement is that it's given without a sense of chronology: it's a solid guess and probably better than any other guesses at the moment, but anything such a person's saying right now is based on far less than a full review of data.  Wait until the studies have gone through peer review, or [[Wikinews|go write a news article]], not an encyclopedia.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 22:40, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::The thing is, the stuff written about, went already through peer-review, is published. [[User:Prokaryotes|prokaryotes]] ([[User talk:Prokaryotes|talk]]) 22:45, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*I'll say what I've said elsewhere: every non-trivial hurricane that comes through is going to be the subject of "can it be blamed on climate change" clickbait speculation. What the TS people say about this is a matter of record, which Guy has presented: they don't know, and in any case, it's just one storm. This sort of thing has become routine coverage: it's going to happen every time there is a big or unusual storm, and there aren't going to be similar stories when the storms are weak or few in number or wander around terrorizing shipping but not making landfall. Harvey is unusual in that coming up to land and stopping like it did is very rare behavior, but is climate change responsible for that? The problem here is a typical WP issue: whenever something makes the news, there is a tendency to try to cram all the "is this a manifestation of current hot issue?" news articles in. For an encyclopedia, there needs to be some retrospective distance; when scientific papers come out some years from now analyzing Harvey as part of a pattern, then there will be substance, but right now, there isn't. [[User:Mangoe|Mangoe]] ([[User talk:Mangoe|talk]]) 22:30, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*FFS, this has been going on all day. Someone put together an RfC or something, or do something somewhere other than here. [[User:Timothyjosephwood|<span style="color:#a56d3f;font-family:Impact;">Timothy</span><span style="color:#6f3800;font-family:Impact;">Joseph</span><span style="color:#422501;font-family:Impact;">Wood</span>]] 00:26, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
**This thread should be closed, this is the wrong place for a content dispute discussion. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 01:00, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Looking for attribution of a translation copied from Wikipedia ==

[[:s:For Freedom and Truth]] was copied from [[For Freedom and Truth]] on 2006-10-22. There is no attribution of the translator on Wikisource. Is there any attribution of the translator in the deleted edits of [[For Freedom and Truth]]? Or is it an original translation by Wikipedia editors? Any assistance will be appreciated. [[User:Beleg Tâl|Beleg Tâl]] ([[User talk:Beleg Tâl|talk]]) 13:30, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
:<s><code>(diff) 23:56, 10 November 2006 . . Newmanbe (talk | contribs | block) (309 bytes) (<nowiki>{{ subst:prod|Source material that is not acceptable on the English Wikisource (Unknown Translator)}}</nowiki>)</code> [[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 13:45, 31 August 2017 (UTC)</s>

:As far as I can make out, it came from the book: {{cite book| last = Bibo| first = Istvan | authorlink = | coauthors = | title = Democracy, Revolution, Self-Determination | publisher = Columbia University Press| date = 1991 | location = New York | url = | pages= 325-327| id = ISBN 0-88033-214-X  |no-tracking=yes}}. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 13:49, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
::The edit I found first was reverted due to the apparent copyvio [[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 13:52, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Yes, it's a bit confusing. There's a bit of a debate about whether it was suitable for wikisource on the deleted talk page. The text in English appeared to have been copied from the book and was thus a breach of the translator's copyright rather than the text in the original language being put on the appropriate wikisource and then translated into English with GFDL permissions. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 14:16, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

== Poorly references sports biographies ==
{{atop|There is support to have them draftified. It would be helpful to create a list of all pages draftified in this manner and to point the cricket WikiProject to this list so they can take a look. [[User:Huon|Huon]] ([[User talk:Huon|talk]]) 22:29, 30 August 2017 (UTC)}}
Hi,

Whilst going through the February 2009 orphans category, I came across a large number of one-line entries on living cricket players who have played a couple of matches each, some of which are unsourced, some of which are only sourced to CricketArchive.  I was part-way going through draftifying them with AutoWikiBrowser when I was advised on IRC that, although there is a precedent for BLP mass-draftification, it tends to happen after discussion and not [[WP:BOLD|bold]] edits.  They've now been rollbacked by my main account en-masse.  All of these articles were created by {{u|02blythed}} and most have been orphaned since 2009.

Relevant links:
*[[Special:Diff/796869077|Notification to page creator]]
*[[Special:Contribs/DrStrauss (AWB)|My AWB account's contribs]]

Therefore, I propose the mass draftification of all poorly sourced cricket biographies created by {{u|02blythed}}.

Thanks,

'''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 16:43, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

*'''Support''' This has been raised time and time again with this user. Their talkpage is a long list of prods and other BLP issues. All of these articles would meet the notability threshold, but there's just no care in their creation. Most of them are orphans, too. On the plus side, this user hasn't edited since March, but if they did return, I'd also strongly support that they '''do not''' create any further articles until they show some [[WP:CIR|competence in what they're doing]]. '''[[User:Lugnuts|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Lugnuts</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Lugnuts|Fire Walk with Me]]</sup> 17:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': At least one of the articles survived AfD: [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/P. H. Barnes]]. I don't know how many are BLPs; I suspect most are not. [[User:StAnselm|<b>St</b>]][[Special:Contributions/StAnselm|Anselm]] ([[User talk:StAnselm|talk]]) 18:57, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''': here are 24 of the 86 BLPs he has created which start with the letter "A": [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abhishek_Mohan][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdus_Salaam_(cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Wahab_(cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Salim][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Rashid_(cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Majid_(cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Latif_(Indian_cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdullah_(Indian_cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Khaliq_(cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Kadir_(Indian_cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Hamid_(cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Hai_(Indian_cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abdul_Aziz_(Indian_Cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abbas_Khan_(cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abbas_Ali_Khan_(cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abbas_(cricketer)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=A._K._M._Mahmood][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aaamer_Hameed][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aafan_Rauf][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aamer_Atta][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aamer_Aziz][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aamer_Baig][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aamer_Bhatti_(cricketer%2c_born_1972)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aamer_Bhatti_(cricketer%2c_born_1978)][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aamer_Brohi][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aamer_Butt_(cricketer)].  Only a tiny proportion exceed two lines.  AfD is different from draftification but they need improvement to make them worthy of being in an encyclopedia of Wikipedia's calibre (or the calibre we are working towards).  '''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 20:13, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:*I doubt that article about P. H. Barnes would survive an AfD now. That discussion purely centered around Barnes passing NCRIC and therefore being given an auto-keep, but NSPORTS guidelines have been definitively confirmed as ''not'' superceding GNG. Passing NCRIC is enough to require an AfD discussion rather than CSD or PROD but you still need GNG-worthy sources to actually keep the article. The pages that 02blythed are making definitely do not show that kind of sourcing, so although they may pass NCRIC I strongly doubt they would all survive AfD. &spades;[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]]&spades; [[User_talk:Premeditated Chaos|(talk)]] 21:41, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
::*Indeed, and at any rate, draftification is lower down in the severity of measures when compared to AfD.  Maybe bundling them would result in a [[WP:TRAINWRECK|trainwreck]] but if they were all individually nominated I'd say a solid half would be deleted.  I think the draftspace proposal is a good halfway house.  If they are not improved in say, six months, then we can think about an AfD.  '''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 21:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:Are you doing this under [[WP:DRAFTIFY]]? Do you realise one of the reasons "iv) a bold move from article space" was removed last year following consensus at an RFC [[Wikipedia talk:Drafts/Archive 5#RFC: Clarification over main-space to draft-space moves]] and [[Wikipedia talk:Drafts/Archive 6#Clarification over main-space to draft-space moves]]? [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 22:09, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:: Except that [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Upgrade_WP:DRAFTIFY_to_policy_or_guideline_and_disallow_moves_to_Draft-_or_userspace_without_discussion_or_consent|this more recent]] discussion is clearly applicable here, and consensus there is pretty strongly against disallowing bold moves the Draftspace. Also, there really wasn't a "consensus" offered at the first RfC you mention, certainly not against the idea entirely. --[[User:IJBall|IJBall]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/IJBall|contribs]] • [[User talk:IJBall|talk]])</small> 03:52, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::The first RFC led to no action and the it was as a result of the second discussion that the change was made. The third discussion you point to (thank you) did not restore the general allowance to make bold moves but did not agree any guidelines for making such moves. My take is that such moves are allowed but under uncertain circumstances (and so need to be done cautiously). [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 07:09, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Hence me coming here.  I was advised halfway through that the third RfC encouraged discussion.  '''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 09:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::Yes, and thank you for doing this. My concern is that you describe the defects that some of them, or most of them, have. What about those that do not have these defects? For long established articles with multiple editors (including admins) does your view that they are unsuitable in main space prevail without discussion? I personally don't agree that "draftification is lower down in the severity of measures when compared to AfD" for long-established articles with multiple involvement. A lot of the discussion linked to from here has been on the assumption that the articles are new and with single authors where we don't want to bite them. This surely does not appyy to "community" articles when this has become the case. [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 11:50, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::Well, I would say the length of their existence strengthens the case for draftification because of the lack of improvement over the past eight years.  '''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 13:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Are you referring to things like [[Sir Edward Antrobus, 8th Baronet]], for example? Sure, it's a very, very weakly referenced article, and certainly rightly tagged, but I would object to it being moved to draft space (and the redirect consequently deleted) without discussion (and I don't really regard this here as "discussion"). AfD would be entirely appropiate. [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 14:45, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::::I'm referring to the hundreds of one-line articles such as the twenty-odd I linked above.  '''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 16:00, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::So I'm completely confused by [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sir_Edward_Antrobus,_8th_Baronet&diff=796880493&oldid=789213589 this], my apologies. Best wishes anyway. [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 17:12, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*I'm no expert in these things but I doubt [[Sir Edward Antrobus, 8th Baronet]] even qualifies for BLPPROD, never mind being being disappeared as an article. [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 22:37, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

*'''Support''' having such pages around makes a mockery of our GNG guidelines. On the other side we have debates about including Billion dollar public companies. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 02:59, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' for any of them that are completely unsourced, with an explicit understanding that they may be recreated at any time if someone is willing to rewrite using reliable sources.  [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] <sup>([[User talk:Lankiveil|speak to me]])</sup> 05:37, 24 August 2017 (UTC).
::I think, in general, they are not unsourced but they are (very) weakly sourced. [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 06:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per above, they have not been improved after eight years, some violate policies and unless someone is willing to go through them one by one, it is best all be moved into draftspace and be considered there on their individual merits. [[User:Jcc|jcc]] ([[User talk:Jcc#top|tea and biscuits]]) 15:11, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - Per Legacypac. The articles haven't been improved recently, so moving them into draft space is the best option. [[User:SophisticatedSwampert|Sophisticated<i>Swampert</i>]] [[User talk:SophisticatedSwampert|<sup><i>'''let's talk about that'''</i></sup>]] 16:34, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

*[[WP:NOPAGE]] also applies. Someone might consider rolling them all together into a big list. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 18:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' unless consensus is found to change [[WP:ATHLETE]] <sub>[which I would likely support]</sub>.   Until then, the articles, as brief as they are, meet what the community has identified as a minimum standard for notability for athletes.  I consider ESPN to be an independent, reliable source.   Aside, if a shockingly brief article is created that nobody visits, is it a burden on the project?  I say no.  [[User:Neil916|Neil916]] ([[User Talk:Neil916|Talk]]) 07:58, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
::But they're disruptive in thier slap-dash nature of creation. Take a look a [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#User:Ryathoma|few threads down]] on this very page for a similar incident that lead the user to an indef block for creating rubbish. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Four_Days%27_Wonder&oldid=796172820 This] "article" is in the same league as the dross this user has 02blythed. Yes, they're notable, but the clean-up work needed far outweighs the rationale of keeping them (in the mainspace). '''[[User:Lugnuts|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Lugnuts</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Lugnuts|Fire Walk with Me]]</sup> 16:22, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
:::{{u|Lugnuts}}, I'm not seeing the disruptive aspect.  Aside from the fact that I have no interest in people who play professional cricket in Bangladesh, I have no issues with an editor creating an article like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aamer_Butt_(cricketer)&oldid=767540205 this] as long as the subject matter meets the notability guidelines, and according to WP:ATHLETE, he does.  Is that too low a bar?  Perhaps, but that's an issue to take up there.    The "Four Days' Wonder" article you linked to is different, since there isn't even a complete sentence.   02blythed created articles that had what little information he had from the one source that he cited, and included an infobox and a reference.  Again, I'm just not seeing the problem people are trying to solve with the mass deletions or moving to draft space.  [[User:Neil916|Neil916]] ([[User Talk:Neil916|Talk]]) 18:48, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
::::It's disruptive, as he's been told time and time again not to do this, but continued, even after been given guidance on what to include for a basic stub. The very diff you link to here for [[Aamer Butt (cricketer)]] doesn't really help the reader. Key terms are not linked/explained (Faisalabad, List A cricket, etc) and other words are linked to the wrong thing (he never played for the "Pakistan cricket team"). And finally, there is just one category. Is this person [[WP:BLP|alive]], example? If you still can't see the problem, then fine, but for someone who has been here for more than '''11 years''' that is very worrying. '''[[User:Lugnuts|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Lugnuts</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:Lugnuts|Fire Walk with Me]]</sup> 18:57, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
::::I second {{u|Lugnuts}}'s comments.  Article age is not a valid rationale for keeping junk in the mainspace.  You say you would support modifications to [[WP:ATHLETE]], presumably ones which would support this proposal, but per [[WP:IAR]] I'm sure it's clear that the creation of these articles goes against the spirit of Wikipedia and is a mere [[WP:GAME|exploitation of the letter of the law]].  '''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 19:26, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::[ec] I looked at his talk page to try to find where he has been told time and time again to not do this, and this matter appears to have been previously discussed at length at [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cricket/Archive_81#New_articles_by_User:02blythed]].  After scanning that, I didn't go back and finish looking through the user's talk page, but I'm still opposed to moving these articles to draft space.   [[User:Neil916|Neil916]] ([[User Talk:Neil916|Talk]]) 19:35, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

:::::{{u|DrStrauss}}, a few notes about your comment.  To clarify, I don't remember saying that the age of an article should be a reason to keep it around.  I said that the articles should be kept around because they're about subjects that the community has decided are notable enough.  Second, these articles aren't "junk", unlike the example given by Lugnuts above with the "Four Days' Wonder" article.   They're very short, and some of them may contain grammatical or typographical errors.  Those aren't reasons to delete, or "pseudo-delete" by moving into draft space.  Sometimes articles about topics that not many editors are interested in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Synodontis_granulosus&type=revision&diff=729259786&oldid=149310482 sit around as a stub for years].  Then someone comes along and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Synodontis_granulosus&type=revision&diff=746306794&oldid=729259786 makes it more useful].   Sometimes not.   Still not a valid reason for deletion.   I would likely support a change to WP:ATHLETE, probably along the lines of "one professional match in a sport's highest level in a country" is a standard that is too low, but I'd want to see that discussion before cementing my opinion.  Some sports have very few matches in a year, so one match is notable enough (think Olympics).  But trying to use that as a reason to apply IAR is, in my opinion, the exact opposite of the situation where IAR should be used. 

:::::As an additional note, it might be worthwhile to invite the participants of the Cricket Wikiproject for their input, since it appears from my link above that they addressed it a few months ago.  [[User:Neil916|Neil916]] ([[User Talk:Neil916|Talk]]) 20:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
{{ab}}
*'''Post-close procedural comment''': I'm currently sifting through them with AWB.  I'll provide another update after draftification.  '''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 08:07, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Done all''' - speaking with WP:CRIC now.  '''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 13:02, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Note''', [[User:DrStrauss]] has draftified a number of sourced articles not created by by [[User:02blythed]].[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Fulton&oldid=798172613][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Colin_Snedden&oldid=798179914][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Sandham&oldid=798178919] [[User:Hack|Hack]] ([[User talk:Hack|talk]]) 15:33, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
::{{ping|Hack}} and as discussed at [[WT:CRIC]], those were either erroneous or have now been improved so that they can be moved back to the mainspace.  '''<span style="font-family: Courier">[[User:DrStrauss|<span style="color: blue">Dr</span><span style="color: darkblue">Strauss</span>]] [[User talk:DrStrauss|<span style="color: purple">talk</span>]]</span>''' 15:35, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of Monuments in Nepal]] - drafts now deleted ==

Hi all,

A load of lists were moved to draftspace per the outcome of [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:List of Monuments in Nepal|this MfD]] (this isn't about that outcome, but I agree with it). The drafts have been in draftspace there since January and were recently tagged and deleted G13 (again, not really about that, and technically a correct tag n' delete).

Someone on IRC asked me to restore these (~200+) drafts as they state {{tq|these lists are in active use for Wiki Loves Monuments}}. I began restoring some, then realised that these were valid deletions/tags and I didn't want to step on any toes. I'd appreciate some input on if these should be mass restored per [[Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13]]

Pinging and notifying {{u|Anthony Bradbury}} (who deleted the drafts - again, would like to stress these were good deletes in my book) and {{u|Legacypac}} (who tagged them - again, good tags)  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 11:59, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:Hi. I brought this issue up on IRC earlier, and was referred here. These lists are in use for (among others) Wiki Loves Monuments, which is due to start in 2 days in Nepal. A (very) rapid solution would be appreciated - you can probably imagine that this is especially untimely. 
:Already the move to draft was quite inconvenient (see among others [[phabricator:T173726]]), but I understand that apparently these articles belong in the main namespace. Which is fine, but in the discussion linked the opinions were quite all over the place, which made it hard to act upon. That resulted eventually in moving to the draft namespace, without any warning that this would be deleted after six months if not moved after that. It sounded like a semi-permanent solution. For now, the best seems to be to asap restore the pages, so that the infrastructure is at least back, and then ask the local project team to write an introduction, and add the reference that exists in the [[Draft:List of Monuments in Nepal|central list article]] also to the district lists. [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]]: your username is very appliccable here :) [[user:effeietsanders|effeiets]]'''[[:nl:gebruiker:Effeietsanders|anders]]''' 12:11, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:: I would support (and could help with) restoring the lists in the draft space. As soon as they get sourced, they can even be moved to the article space.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 12:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::: {{re|Ymblanter}} Do you have any suggestions on how to automate the restoration of these drafts? (if and when it happens)  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 12:53, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::: No, not really. I am afraid we need to do it by hand (which, again, I will be willing to participate in). I assume there is a list somewhere or the main page which links to all other pages.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 12:55, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::: Drat.. [[Draft:List of Monuments in Kosi Zone]] (and its list) is what I restored before opening this discussion. The red links on the template link to each list. I'm sure a list could be generated  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 13:00, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::: We do not ebven need this, the zone article pages (which are linked to in the template) are most likely just lists which contain links to real lists. 200 is easily doable as soon as we are sure there is no resistance to the plan (in which case I can take an ownership of the drafts).--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:04, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?prefix=Draft%3AList+of+Monuments&title=Special%3AUndelete&fuzzy=1 This search] may also be helpful  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 13:05, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::: Please also restore the talkpages :) I don't know what's on them... but it may or may not be relevant. [[user:effeietsanders|effeiets]]'''[[:nl:gebruiker:Effeietsanders|anders]]''' 13:14, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|There'sNoTime}} G13 explicitly allows undeletion at REFUND. That's really all that needs to be said here. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 13:07, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:: Ok, I am starting undeletion--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:13, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:: Just wanted to get some second and third opinions, but you're quite right  -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 13:17, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
* I'm not happy with the result of that MfD. Those lists had a purpose, and they belong in a wikiproject, where editors slowly collaborate. They do not belong in DraftSpace, which is a short term scratch space for things no one cares about, where nobody will find them and do anything with them. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 13:10, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:*I agree with SmokeyJoe with the proviso that they should be in article space once the main problem with the lists are fixed. I have pinged the original author on commons and am still awaiting a reply. Once some information was forthcoming I would have done the WP:Refund myself. He seems currently to be involved with WLM only in an offwiki way, so once the lists are back in draftspace I will try to contact him offwiki.  Any non admin related banter should go to [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Historic sites#Nepal]] [[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 14:12, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
***{{rto|SmokeyJoe|Agathoclea}} The place to disagree with MFD discussions is [[WP:DRV]].  I see that both of you contributed to that MFD so to complain 7 months later that the MFD was invalid seems to be in poor taste. [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 14:57, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*Have the pages been restored yet? I'm happy to lend a hand doing so. It also strikes me that while draft space may be a slightly awkward fit, they are appropriate for the Wikipedia namespace. The main priority should be restoring the pages, but moving them back to Wikipedia namespace should be considered. [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 14:04, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
Apparently some of the lists have been deleted as R3 instead of G13. That appears an admin error, not a conscious decision. [[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 14:19, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Hopefully a full list is at [[User:Mz7/monuments]] [[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 14:24, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::No - there are several different page creators. See my comments below. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 15:29, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Actually, that was where I looked first. I know it's not 100% accurate, but I ended up finding a half-dozen extras. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 15:32, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*I think I got the rest. [[Wikipedia:Twinkle/doc#Modules_for_administrators|und-batch]], anyone ;) [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 14:32, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
**That looks useful, I might have to spend some time getting to used to Twinkle for future use. [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 14:59, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*I think these restored drafts again qualify for immediate [[WP:G13]] deletion under the newly revamped G13 definition (" not been edited (excluding bot edits and maintenance actions such as tagging) in over six months"}. But then no one would be disruptive, would they? [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 14:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*:If a certain G13-tag-happy individual starts re-nominating these pages, then they're clearly not paying attention to anything. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 14:56, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*:The point of [[WP:REFUND]] is to restore pages that they may (with the inference being quite quickly) be worked on, either in userspace or draftspace. If the articles were refunded to draftspace and no one touched them for <s>a month</s> 6 months (correction per below), anyone would be justified in re-tagging them. If they were refunded elsewhere (userspace) its likely no one would notice. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 15:00, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
*:{{rto|Thincat}} Under the plain text term and general practice if a REFUND has taken place that immediately disqualifies a page from G13 for at least 6 months (reset the clock).  Some editors think that a REFUND isn't disqualifying nor is other editor initiated actions (like nominating for MFD).  I hold myself personally to the higher standard of 6 months unedited really means 6 months unedited (not looking at who or what made the change). [[User:Hasteur|Hasteur]] ([[User talk:Hasteur|talk]]) 15:01, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I tagged G13 tagged nearly all of them because I found the linked Deletion discussion and because some of them were amoung the very oldest pages in Draft space. Not a one had a single reference so I coukd hardly suggest promotion. Two good ways to see if you got them all - there was a master page that linked to Regional pages that linked to local area pages. It was one of the first I CSD'd. Second way is to sort the Muzicbot Stale Draft report by name because they all  start with List of ...  My [[User:Legacypac/CSD_log]] is an incomplete record as it was edit conflicting until I archived. 

In fairness to the deletion discussion participants, no one knew G13 was coming months later. Not really sure why the people in Nepal have created unreferenced incomplete and in many cases 'lists of one item' pages over at least 3 successive years and appearently abandoned them all. Rather than carrying on this way they should finish and publish something. 

@[[User:Thincat]] where did you get the idea anyone would re-G13 a restored page immediately. That would be very circular. I've only done that purely by accident once that I know of and only because it popped up on the Stale Draft report. I try to watch the REFUND list for problematic pages and I've sent a couple REFUNDed pages to MfD for various reasons like spam. 

Anyway, sorry for accidentally creating work on pages that truly looked abandoned. I hope the Nepal people can bring them to publishing standard or remove them once no longe needed. 
[[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 15:27, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:If these pages are requested for [[Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments]], then would it possibly be a good idea to move these pages ato be subpages of that page? [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 18:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::I think that is a good suggestion, perhaps when the event is over (it is imminent, I think?). For what it's worth, I think everybody has acted in good faith here and it has been a peculiar set of circumstances that led to these pages being deleted. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 18:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
:::A subpage of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Historic sites]] is under discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Historic sites#Nepal]] but due to the issues raised at [[phabricator:T173726]] that should happen after WLM. Ideally we can use the next 6 month to resolve the issues anyway and make just one single move to article space. [[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 20:14, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Do we have a way to ensure that the lists will be be moved in one go, and not one by one? [[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 10:55, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
::::: Let us do it step by step. Now there is prematurely to move them (sources were added to one list during the night, but others are still unsourced).--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 11:41, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::That is what I mean. Even though one list might be ready it should not be moved until all are ready. My question  would be if there is a way to notify the draft patrolers. [[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 11:47, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
{{ping|effeietsanders}} There is a discussion at [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 August 27#Category:Wiki Loves Earth 2014 Nepal]] and I can foresee that a similar discussion might start for the WLM categories. Would this present a problem? Also note that the first draft has been moved to mainspace, breaking the pack. [[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 15:53, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

== Disclosure and request for consideration ==
{{atop|Community ban is rescinded, with no restrictions. I'm assuming [[User:CJK09]] wants to keep using that account, so [[User:Access Denied]] remains blocked, but the ''person'' is unbanned. I'll slowly work thru what I think are the necessary steps to unbanning this afternoon; if something still looks wrong in a couple of hours, please feel free to fix my mistake. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 18:23, 31 August 2017 (UTC)}}
When I signed up for a Wikipedia account a few months ago, I barely remembered any of the following at first, and I was only intending to make a handful of edits anyway, so I did not expect this to be of any consequence. But I quickly became sucked back in and ended up becoming an active editor in a matter of days. Even after I began to fully recall the following information, I at first thought it to be of no consequence as I hadn't touched the "edit" button in six and a half years. And besides, my editing pattern is so radically different now than it was before that it would be extremely unlikely that anyone would ever tie me to my previous period of activity on Wikipedia. However, this has been really bothering me the past few days, and I'm feeling that it would be deceptive and dishonest to withhold this information any longer, so I am presenting the following information to allow the Wikipedia community to make a judgement:

Seven years ago in 2010, I edited as [[User:Access Denied]], and after a horrendously disruptive sockpuppetry-fueled vandalism spree in December 2010 and January 2011 I became subject to a community ban, which I deserved 100%. I sincerely apologize to the Wikipedia community for the disruption I created and for everyone whose time I wasted forcing them to clean up after my juvenile mess. 

My case for why I should be allowed to return is this: the [[WP:Standard offer|standard offer]] for banned editors requires them to stay away for six months; I had been away for over six years before I created this account late last month. I have matured greatly in the past six years and no longer have any inclination whatsoever to repeat any of the behaviors that led to my (fully deserved) community ban. I am truly, wholeheartedly sorry for the harm I caused Wikipedia and I believe that my edits over the past month show that I am now here to build an encyclopedia, which I was definitely not here to do six years ago. 

I would be very pleased if the community is willing to allow me back, even with conditions; however, I fully understand if that will not be the case. I will not edit any page other than this one until the community has decided on a course of action. 

Thank you, [[User:CJK09|CJK09]] ([[User talk:CJK09|talk]]) 07:06, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Lift ban, no conditions'''. <s>I do actually remember [[User:Access Denied]], and it was indeed a bad episode</s> <small>Oh, no, I've already forgotten ;-)</small>. But six years is a long time, and the confession for what does seem like something nobody would have ever noticed counts well with me. Taking a quick look at a few recent edits, I don't see any problems - I haven't done any close inspection, but I'm seeing what looks like properly sourced additions, collegial interactions with others, etc. Unless someone can find anything seriously wrong, I'd say welcome back. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 10:30, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Per Zebedee''' [https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=CJK09&project=enwiki This] is a healthy record, with the worse thing apparent being a sloppiness in the use of edit-summaries  :p   As BsZ says, after seven years and the unliklihood that we would have ever found them out, I suggest that all bets are, as they say, off. Any issues that do arise would be dealt with in the usual fashion. &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 11:00, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - if AD had requested, by email, to be permitted to return after 6 years, there's a decent chance we would have allowed it while keeping a close eye on him/her. Given that (s)he created an account, used it for a month without causing suspicion, and then came forward and admitted it could only make things better - and I certainly believe that (s)he genuinely forgot the episode. The user had everything to loose, and nothing to gain except for his/her own feeling of doing the right thing, by admittting tis, and souldn't be penalized for it. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 12:49, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' As the editor in this form clearly shows, they ARE here to build an encyclopedia. Thank you for acknowledging your previous ban in the past and I would feel comfortable in lifting it at this point. [[User:RickinBaltimore|RickinBaltimore]] ([[User talk:RickinBaltimore|talk]]) 12:53, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''', regardless of whether they forgot the episode. [[User:Cyp|Κσυπ ''Cyp'']] [[User talk:Cyp|&nbsp;]] 12:57, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' given their honesty and being forthright enough to come forward, let bygones be bygones. [[User:Blackmane|Blackmane]] ([[User talk:Blackmane|talk]]) 13:15, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per request.  People can grow up.  Editor could have continued editing an probably no one would have noticed.  Editor is now clearly [[WP:HERE]] Access Denied who?  Welcome, CJK09!  [[User:78.26|<b style="border:1px solid black;color:red; padding:1px;background:1h5h1h; color:008B8B;">78.26</b>]] <sub>([[User talk:78.26|spin me]] / [[Special:Contributions/78.26|revolutions]])</sub> 13:33, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I find reformed vandals genuinely puzzling, and even more puzzling when they become excellent contributors, but it can and does happen, and this seems to be one of those cases. [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 13:43, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' No user who is banned cannot be unbanned and this seems one of those cases where it is right to lift the ban. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 13:55, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' [[:es:Start of Something New|Let the clouds disappear]]. [[User:Alex Shih|Alex Shih]][[User_talk:Alex Shih|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 14:04, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per B!sZ and others. We all make mistakes. [[User:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:navy">Mini</span>''''']][[User_talk:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:#8B4513">apolis</span>''''']] 22:09, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per above.  -[[User talk:Fastily|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:Indigo;font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-size:120%;">F</span><span style="font-size:90%;">ASTILY</span></span>]] 00:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per B!sZ.  Regardless of what the user did six years ago, their contributions here under this account seem to be productive.  1000 edits in a month without any problems I can find suggests someone who is now a net positive for the encyclopedia. [[User:Caeciliusinhorto|Caeciliusinhorto]] ([[User talk:Caeciliusinhorto|talk]]) 11:14, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

{{Clear}}
== AIV ''and'' RFPP are backlogged ==
{{atop|result=Backlogs cleared; closing thread I started. <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> —'''[[User:MRD2014|<span style="color:blue">MRD</span><span style="color:red">2014</span>]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:MRD2014|Talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contribs/MRD2014|Edits]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[WP:HELP|''Help!'']]</sup> 17:35, 1 September 2017 (UTC)}}
'''Thirty-seven''' pending requests at RFPP and '''sixteen''' AIV reports at the time of this posting. —'''[[User:MRD2014|<span style="color:blue">MRD</span><span style="color:red">2014</span>]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:MRD2014|Talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contribs/MRD2014|Edits]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[WP:HELP|''Help!'']]</sup> 03:04, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
{{abot}}

== Someone needed to look into bizarre IP behavior... ==

Can someone with some more time than me look into {{user|61.6.172.206}} and {{user|82.19.95.171}}.  The first is making edits to various articles about media networks, while the second follows on and reverts it a few minutes later.  I am busy IRL or would look more into it.  --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 16:50, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
*I blocked the first for unverified and unexplained edits, and warned the other for not explaining what they're doing. I have no doubt that at least one of these has an account listed somewhere in the LTA or SPI section. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:02, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

== CheckUser and Oversight appointments 2017: Announcement ==

'''''Cross posted from [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#CheckUser and Oversight appointments 2017: Announcement]].'''''

The Arbitration Committee has resolved to perform a round of [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight/2017 CUOS appointments|Checkuser and Oversight appointments]]. The arbitrators overseeing this will be [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]], [[User:Ks0stm|Ks0stm]], and [[User:Mkdw|Mkdw]].  This year, the usernames of all applicants will be shared with the [[WP:FUNC|Functionaries team]], and they will be requested to assist in the vetting process. 

*1 September: Request for candidates to apply.
*23:59 UTC, 12 September: Candidate submissions close, vetting begins.
*13 September: The Arbitration Committee and current Functionaries will vet the candidates.
*15 September: Vetting ends, successful candidates contacted by 18 September.
*18 September: Candidates published on-wiki, community feedback invited.
*23:59 UTC, 29 September: Community comments end.
*By 11 October: Appointed candidates announced

For the Arbitration Committee, [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 15:29, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

: [[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight/2017 CUOS appointments|'''Discuss this''']]

== Administrators' newsletter – September 2017 ==

[[Wikipedia:Administrators' newsletter|News and updates for administrators]] from the past month (August 2017).
[[File:ANEWSicon.png|right|150px]]
[[File:Admin mop.PNG|20px|alt=]] '''Administrator changes'''
:[[File:Gnome-colors-list-add.svg|20px|alt=added]] [[Special:PermanentLink/795458460#Resysop request (nakon)|Nakon]] • [[Special:Permalink/797938994#Resysop request .28Scott.29|Scott]]
:[[File:Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg|20px|alt=removed]] [[Special:PermanentLink/793318310#August 2017|Sverdrup]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/793318310#August 2017|Thespian]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/793318310#August 2017|Elockid]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/793318310#August 2017|James086]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/793318310#August 2017|Ffirehorse]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/793318310#August 2017|Celestianpower]] • [[Special:PermanentLink/796226283#Temp desysop please|Boing! said Zebedee]]

[[File:Green check.svg|20px|alt=]] '''Guideline and policy news'''
:* [[WP:ACTRIAL|ACTRIAL]], a research experiment that restricts article creation to autoconfirmed users, will begin on September 7. It will run for six months. You can learn more about the research specifics at [[meta:Research:Autoconfirmed article creation trial]], while [[Wikipedia talk:Autoconfirmed article creation trial]] is probably the best venue for general discussion.
:* Following an [[Special:Permalink/798273649#Expand G13 to cover ALL old drafts|RfC]], [[WP:G13]] speedy deletion criterion now applies to any page in the draftspace that has not been edited in six months. There is a [[User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report|bot-generated report]], updated daily, to help identify potentially qualifying drafts that have not been submitted through [[Wikipedia:Articles for creation|articles for creation]].

[[File:Octicons-tools.svg|20px|alt=]] '''Technical news'''
:* You will now [[mw:Help:Login notifications|get a notification]] when someone tries to log in to your account and fails. If they try from a device that has logged into your account before, you will be notified after five failed attempts. You can also [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo|set in your preferences]] to get an email when someone logs in to your account from a new device or IP address, which may be encouraged for admins and accounts with sensitive permissions.
:* [[Syntax highlighting]] is now available as a beta feature ([[meta:Community Tech/Wikitext editor syntax highlighting|more info]]). This may assist administrators and template editors when dealing with intricate syntax of high-risk templates and system messages.
:* In your [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo|notification preferences]], you can now block specific users from pinging you. This functionality will [[phab:T138166|soon be available]] for [[Special:EmailUser]] as well.

[[File:Scale of justice 2.svg|20px|alt=]] '''Arbitration'''
:* Applications for [[Wikipedia:CheckUser|CheckUser]] and [[Wikipedia:Oversight|Oversight]] are [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight/2017 CUOS appointments|being accepted]] by the Arbitration Committee until September 12. Community discussion of the candidates will begin on September 18.

----
{{center|{{flatlist|
* [[Wikipedia talk:Administrators' newsletter|Discuss this newsletter]]
* [[Wikipedia:Administrators' newsletter/Subscribe|Subscribe]]
* [[Wikipedia:Administrators' newsletter/Archive|Archive]]
}}}}
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== IP Vandal ==

This IP is vandalizing this article [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/798456139 here]
S/He had been reverted MANY times before and warned yet it still continues. This IP needs to be blocked immediately. If s/he hasn't been already
[[User:Dinah Kirkland|♠Dinah♠]] [[User Talk:Dinah Kirkland|🎤]] 02:33, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
: There is an LTA filter (846) specifically added to catch more than one vandals in a specific IP range, now we just have to add 172.56.0.0/16 to it. Both ranges belong to T-Mobile USA and are basically shared IP. <span style="color:#b83903;">-★-</span> [[User:PlyrStar93|<span style="color:#00709f;font-size=1.4em;">'''PlyrStar93'''</span>]]. <sub>→[[User_talk:PlyrStar93|<span style="font-family:lucida fax;color:#000000;font-size=3em">Message me. </span>🖉]]←</sub> 02:37, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Good. I hope it works. I tried to revert them however... mobile view sucks. I would've helped more if I could, sorry ^-^
[[User:Dinah Kirkland|♠Dinah♠]] [[User Talk:Dinah Kirkland|🎤]] 02:47, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== PSA: With Bbb23 on indeterminate leave, SPI is backlogged for closings ==

{{noping|Bbb23}} has been "on break for an undetermined length of time" since July 28, and [[WP:SPI]] appears to be getting backlogged for closings and blocks. I think additional admin participation at present to institute closings and blocks would be helpful. (I notice this because an SPI I opened, which shall go nameless, was CUed with a result 2 weeks ago, but it has not been closed by an admin; this seems rather longer than I've experienced in the past and if that is true I'm sure other SPIs are languishing as well.) [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 12:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:Yes. Both CU result SPIs and non-CU SPIs are particularly backlogged at the moment and could use admin assistance in closure. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 14:13, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
::Yes.  Concur in the request.  [[User:Robert McClenon|Robert McClenon]] ([[User talk:Robert McClenon|talk]]) 17:56, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
::: I closed a few easy ones.  I'll look at some more later.  It can be tedious work, especially when you're unfamiliar with both the sockmaster and the topic area. [[User:NinjaRobotPirate|NinjaRobotPirate]] ([[User talk:NinjaRobotPirate|talk]]) 20:18, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
*Maybe y'all will consider sending some flowers to Bbb, and maybe a gift card or two, for past services rendered. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:13, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

::[[User:Drmies|Drmies]], has he had a personal or family event/death or illness? I'm sure we all wish him very well and although we'd love to have him back here soon, want him to take all the time off that he needs. (PS, I have no idea what his name or email address is; I don't think I've ever corresponded with him that way.) [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 07:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::Drmies is using [[hyperbole|southern speak]] to indicate that a note of appreciation on Bbb23's talk page may be in order for those so inclined.<br />&nbsp;—&nbsp;[[User:Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">Berean Hunter</span>]] [[User talk :Berean Hunter|<span style="font-family:High Tower Text;color:#0000ff;font-weight:900;">(talk)</span>]] 13:02, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Well hell, I am a Southerner born, bred, and raised (and did not escape until the 24th year of my life), and I did not understand what he meant. FFS. [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 13:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::<small>By South, I think he meant [[Eindhoven]]... ;)  &mdash; [[User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:maroon">'''fortuna'''</span>]][[User talk:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi|<span style="color:navy">'''''velut luna'''''</span>]] 13:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC)</small>
::::::Eindhoven is in Belgium, as far as I'm concerned. Berean Hunter, my southern speech is quite faulty--I really meant flowers and gift cards knowing fully well that Bbb is a mysterious character whom no one knows. Softlavender, no, that's not quite it--let's call it a Wiki burnout of sorts: that does him no justice, but it is related to what's going on. But whatever the case is, his service has been quite valuable; anyone who pays attention to SPI knows that. It's like Daniel Case with the user names, or Dennis Brown on the dramah boards, or Floquenbeam being a paratrooper-admin, or Diannaa and MER-C with the copyvios, or Materialscientist who has blocked more vandals than Giraffedata has corrected "comprise of"s, or Tide rolls who keeps the joint clean and none of you even know him, or BlueMoonset without whom the DYK setup would be a disaster (I'm not pinging these people--they don't need ''me'' to compliment them, and I can only ''hope'' to complement them). You don't really see it, and then they're not there, and we run into trouble. There are so many good people here donating so much of their valuable time, and Bbb is/was one of them. I have no idea if he'll be back, but I sure miss him. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 16:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
::::::: I am genuinely quite alarmed that Bbb may not be back, or be back in the near future. His devotion to the project has been constant and tireless and frankly fairly thankless. I don't know the details of what may have precipitated a lengthy absence beyond sheer burnout, but certainly if there is anything we can do to improve things for him on- or off-wiki, I'm sure we would jump at the chance. [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 23:28, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::: I say that we '''''double''''' his salary, he's worth it.{{parabr}}All joking aside, I'm as concerned as you to hear that there's a possibility he may not return. I think he's one of our very best admins and CUs, and certainly has great judgement as a CU (even when he turns me down, damn him, I respect his opinion).  It would be a blow to the community if he were to decide to leave for good, but he's gotta do what's he's gotta do, I guess. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:37, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Well said, Drmies. Bbb23 has contributed incredibly much and he is very much missed, and it is good to get a reminder of some of the people who do a huge amount of work behind the scenes. --''[[User:Bonadea|bonadea]]'' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Bonadea|contributions]] [[User talk:Bonadea|talk]]</small> 08:30, 1 September 2017 (UTC) 

I've returned as a checkuser and slowly I'm chipping away at the backlog. I don't want to go too fast and burn out. :-) --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] ([[User talk:Deskana|talk]]) 01:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
:Thanks. I see you managed to get your signature turned back around again. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 05:39, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

<small><small>* Posting this with a datestamp to keep thread here for a while longer. [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 06:52, 27 August 2017 (UTC)</small></small>

::{{re|Deskana}} thanks for your help here (same for all the other CUs). The backlog is a headache (I wish we could find a way of documenting SPI workflow for historical/analysis purposes), but I think we're making some progress. [[User:GeneralizationsAreBad|GAB]]<sup>[[User talk:GeneralizationsAreBad|gab]]</sup> 20:10, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
:::I'm glad to hear that.  There are a couple there that are actually causing me problems. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 06:03, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

*'''NOTE''': It's not necessarily CUs that are needed here (Bbb23 was not a CU until fairly recently). It's admins needed to close SPIs and block socks and masters. [[User:Softlavender|Softlavender]] ([[User talk:Softlavender|talk]]) 08:20, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
:{{ping|GeneralizationsAreBad}} Not sure if you're aware, but the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Audit/Statistics‎|ArbCom CU statistics]] do show that 24% less checks were made this month, although it should also be noted that other CUs have done a good job of stepping up and increasing their checks to compensate for Bbb23's absence. [[User:Jcc|jcc]] ([[User talk:Jcc#top|tea and biscuits]]) 09:52, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== Catholicism (redirect) and Catholicism (term) ==

Few days ago, after a short discussion, consensus was reached to rename the article [[Catholicism]] as [[Catholicism (term)]], and then to redirect the term [[Catholicism]] to [[Catholic Church]]. All of that was OK, but so far no further actions were made in order to adjust relevant links in numerous articles. There are literally hundreds of articles and thousands of other pages that have the link [[Catholicism]], originally pointing to the article that is now called [[Catholicism (term)]]. That original connection is now broken, after recent moves and lack of further actions. In order to preserve the original and authentic use of the term in all those articles, it would be needed to edit them by replacing links "Catholicism" (now pointing to a different article, dedicated to one denomination), with updated links to general article "Catholicism (term)", thus restoring the connection with the original content. Can it be done? [[User:Sorabino|Sorabino]] ([[User talk:Sorabino|talk]]) 18:05, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

:This is probably best discussed at [[Talk:Catholicism (term)]] or maybe [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism]]. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 09:25, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::[[User:Sorabino|Sorabino]], administrators don't have any abilities to fix this that you don't.  From a technical perspective, your best route is to leave most non-mainspace pages alone; any active project pages should be updated, but don't edit old discussions, of course.  There's really no way for a bot to identify which links need to be fixed.  Therefore, the only real options are (1) find all the links and fix them manually, or (2) find all the links, identify which ones are right and which ones need to be fixed, and compile a list of all the ones that need to be fixed.  A bot can then be used to fix these links; [[WP:CONTEXTBOT]] specifically permits context-sensitive bot runs, like this one, when the bot's just going off a list that's been compiled by a human.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 12:25, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:::[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]], thank you very much for that explanation. I guessed that it wont be possible, but I had to ask, since this problem now affects hundreds of articles. It would be quite impossible to edit them manually, not only because of the scale of that job, but mainly because each edit would involve the assessment of a particular use of the term in every article, and that might lead us to new problems. There might be another solution: maybe we could upgrade redirect [[Catholicism]] into a disambiguation page, with list of terms like: [[Catholicism (term)]] for the general use, "Roman Catholicism" (pointing to the Catholic Church), "Anglican Catholicism" (pointing to the Anglican Communion), "Old Catholicism" (pointing to the Old-Catholic Church) and so on ... Would that allow us to send disambiguation notices for articles that contain link [[Catholicism]]? If that is possible, every author will get the chance to make his own corrections. [[User:Sorabino|Sorabino]] ([[User talk:Sorabino|talk]]) 12:43, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::::Disambiguation notices only happen when you add a new link.  It would be useless for any extant links.  By the way, I agree with your assessment of this as a large issue; WhatLinksHere showed me 4,382 links to [[catholicism]] from mainspace only.  But why change the targets?  Catholicism '''is''' the Church of Rome, not Anglicanism or Eastern Orthodoxy or anything else.  Links really meaning to go to [[Catholicism (term)]] are going to be rather few and far between.  [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 12:51, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:::::[[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]], I agree with you on that. During the original discussion on [[Talk:Catholicism (term)]] few days ago, I supported the proposal for redirecting [[Catholicism]] to [[Catholic Church]] since that is the most common meaning of the term. But I also warned about some technical issues. Unfortunately, discussion on this very important topic was closed without much participation. For example, there was no notification about that discussion on [[Portal talk:Catholicism]] and [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism]]. And now, the move is contested on several grounds, since new proposals and discussions were initiated. Thank you for additional explanations, I guess there will be no easy solution for this problem. [[User:Sorabino|Sorabino]] ([[User talk:Sorabino|talk]]) 13:12, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== What is the user-IP policy? ==
{{archive top|I think we're all set here. [[User:Pillowfluffyhead|Pillowfluffyhead]] ([[User talk:Pillowfluffyhead|talk]]) 23:54, 2 September 2017 (UTC)<small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>}}
I need clarification, please.  See the report on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&oldid=798462826 Anonymous44].  We have two logged in users here, {{re|Anonymous44}}, who was reported at AIV by {{re|Pillowfluffyhead}}.  This was later declined by another user.  My question, is why is it allowed for both these users to edit as IPs?   Both are up front about it, noting on their user pages that they mostly edit on their IP addresses. Pillowfluffyhead has a link to their IP .  They're not hiding anything. But isn't this counter-productive to how Wikipedia is set up?  If they can operate as IPs, why can't everybody do it?  Why do others get blocked for doing it?  Why don't the sockmasters just list their socks on their user page and be up front about using an alias or two (or ten or twenty)? We're leaving it up to admins, very human admins, to discern intent of purpose? This seems like a conflict in policy to me, to allow some users to do this but not others. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 11:40, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:Clarification. I don't mostly edit under my IP. I had never edited Wikipedia before until the IP that I linked on my user page. I will no longer be editing under that IP except accidentally, since I have created this account. I just created this account yesterday because I was tired of having to enter a CAPTCHA for external links even when reverting vandalism. I was also tired of getting good-faith edits blocked by abuse filters. As such, unless I accidentally don't login, all of my contributions will be via this account.

:The IP addresss that Anonymous44 was editing under tripped the abuse filter that is targeting [[WP:BKFIP|this banned user]], and therefore I reported both the IP and the account for block evasion. {{ping|Kuru}} then clarified that this was a false positive

:I also have to question whether Anonymous44 is a username violation, since it could give the impression of an unregistered user. [[User:Pillowfluffyhead|Pillowfluffyhead]] ([[User talk:Pillowfluffyhead|talk]]) 11:48, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::{{re|Pillowfluffyhead}} your editing history bears out the veracity of what you say.  The IP began editing on Aug 31, 2017, and ceased yesterday when you created your user account.  Also, it's evident by your history that you are focused on our AIV edits, which is good.  But for clarification, I still wish a seasoned admin or two here would provide some clarification on when a user account steps over the line editing with an IP.  I understand it sometimes happens for one reason or another, but when is it a case of vandalism? Anonymous44 has been editing under that name since 2006. But if is of concern, you might file at [[WP:UAA]]. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 13:56, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::{{replyto|Pillowfluffyhead}} Insofar as the username itself is concerned, I don't consider it to be a username violation. I don't think there is a good case to be made in terms of it [[WP:ISU|implying shared use]], being [[WP:MISLEADNAME|misleading]] in a manner that complicates interaction or building the encyclopedia, or [[WP:UNCONF|causing confusion]]. There might be a better case if there are diffs of interactions that demonstrate some kind of confusion on the part of other editors, but this case doesn't seem like a violation to me. [[User:I JethroBT|<b style="font-family:Garamond; color:green">I JethroBT</b>]] [[User talk:I JethroBT|<sup>drop me a line</sup>]] 19:49, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|Maile66}} I think [[WP:Sock puppetry]] is very clear on this. It's sock puppetry if someone is creating the illusion that they are several people and using it to achieve something that they shouldn't and otherwise wouldn't achieve (creating an illusion of support, breaking the 3RR etc.). ''That'' is what people are blocked for. By default, everything else is allowed. I am not obliged to log in (which is also what the policy page explicitly says), as I don't cause anyone any harm by not logging in, and whether I choose to do so or not is nobody else's business. I am not obliged to have an account at all either, and I've only created this account in order to be able to do some things that unregistered users can't do (start new articles, edit semi-protected pages, etc.). --[[User:Anonymous44|Anonymous44]] ([[User talk:Anonymous44|talk]]) 19:19, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:{{replyto|Maile66}} I don't think there is a policy specific to folks who regularly use IPs and registered accounts, so I think it's best to rely on the policies we have on [[WP:Sockpuppetry|alternative accounts generally]]. I get that these circumstances have a bad look to them on the surface, but I think if {{u|Anonymous44}} is not contributing to the same pages with their accounts, misleading contributors, being disruptive, or otherwise violating some policy ([[WP:ILLEGIT|all inappropriate uses of an alternative account]]), then I don't think there is anything actionable here. Anonymous44, have you edited the same pages with your IP and registered accounts before?  <strike>If so, this should be avoided in the future even if you're editing constructively.</strike> I realize page protection might present some difficulties for pages you've edited while not logged in, so I think it's best to exercise your own judgment in those cases. [[User:I JethroBT|<b style="font-family:Garamond; color:green">I JethroBT</b>]] [[User talk:I JethroBT|<sup>drop me a line</sup>]] 20:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::Certainly, in the past ten years or so there have been some occasions on which I have edited the same page within a relatively short period of time, e.g. when I have been forced to log in because it has been protected in the meantime, or when I have created the page myself and then gone back to editing without signing in as usual. In the present case I edited the same page with my account because, while editing as an IP, I was misindentified with a banned vandal who apparently had a similar IP address, which triggered an abuse filter, and all of my constructive edits were automatically reverted because of that. The point of logging in was, first, to prove that I was not that particular vandal and, second, to be taken seriously in general. IPs are, unfortunately, often assumed to be vandals or idiots by default around these parts, so you often have to show that you have a username in order to get people to even listen to you at all or consider you fully human. I do not edit the same pages both logged in and logged out in the course of edit conflicts as a way to break the 3RR or create the illusion of support. It may happen that I log in if I see that someone assumes that I'm a vandal, or that I am generally not to be taken seriously, just because I'm an IP. I cannot predict in advance whether the need for me to log in will arise (even if that happens extremely rarely), so I can't preclude the possibility that I will end up editing the same page both logged out and logged in.--[[User:Anonymous44|Anonymous44]] ([[User talk:Anonymous44|talk]]) 21:03, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:::{{replyto|Anonymous44}} Apologies, I misread a line in [[WP:Sockpuppetry]] ({{tq|Contributing to the same page with clearly linked, legitimate, alternative accounts (e.g. editing the same page with your main and public computer account or editing a page using your main account that your bot account edited) is not forbidden.}}), so my advice earlier to be cautious about editing the same page is not really warranted in this case. The appropriate advice is just to consider whether any editing you might do with both accounts could be understood as an [[WP:ILLEGIT|inappropriate use for alternative accounts]]. But seeing as there is no such problem here, it seems to me you've been doing a-OK with that. :) [[User:I JethroBT|<b style="font-family:Garamond; color:green">I JethroBT</b>]] [[User talk:I JethroBT|<sup>drop me a line</sup>]] 21:30, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::::Well, I'm glad that this issue is resolved, then. Cheers! --[[User:Anonymous44|Anonymous44]] ([[User talk:Anonymous44|talk]]) 21:46, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

{{ping|I JethroBT}} thank you for noticing where you, and perhaps other administrators, were mistaken in this Administrators Noticeboard discussion. Would you have any objection to my using this as a teaching example for administrators and would-be administrators on the English Wikipedia? One of the problems that we have seen on this wiki is where new editors or unregistered editors perceive that they have been treated badly by more experienced editors. The WMF is currently trying to improve participation on the English Wikipedia. Hopefully if we can make attitudes towards new editors and recently registered editors more welcoming, the overall participation rate will improve. [[User:MPS1992|MPS1992]] ([[User talk:MPS1992|talk]]) 00:10, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
:{{replyto|MPS1992}} Permission granted, you're welcome to use my comments here as you please. I agree very strongly with the idea that admins should be upfront about errors in our own judgment and willing to revisit their decisions without getting defensive or egotistical about it. It's not always easy, but it's the right thing to do. Editors should also strive to do the same thing in cases where they are making other kinds of decisions on the project, but it's especially important for admins because the consequences of bad judgement can be more severe and lasting. [[User:I JethroBT|<b style="font-family:Garamond; color:green">I JethroBT</b>]] [[User talk:I JethroBT|<sup>drop me a line</sup>]] 00:40, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

== Vandalism ==

Admins have a look at [[Nata Pavlova]] as there is a lot of vandalism via author as well as IP --[[User:Tiven2240|'''<span style="background color: black; color: orange">✝iѵ</span><span style="color: blue">ɛɳ</span>'''<span style="color: green">२२४०</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tiven2240|<span style="color: maroon">†ลℓк †๏ мэ</span>]]</sup> 13:20, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:[[User:Zavialovaleksei]] has again created the article inspite  Admin [[user:Nyttend]]'s deletion and again the article has been deleted. If the user continues to vandalise please take necessary action on it.Thanks {{ping|Nyttend}} for your immediate support --[[User:Tiven2240|'''<span style="background color: black; color: orange">✝iѵ</span><span style="color: blue">ɛɳ</span>'''<span style="color: green">२२४०</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tiven2240|<span style="color: maroon">†ลℓк †๏ мэ</span>]]</sup> 14:22, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::The page has been deleted and protected for a week. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 00:59, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

== IPBE, Sysop bit and TOR ==

I'm testing with TOR (I will soon be traveling more) and noticed that I could NOT edit Wikipedia.  My understanding is that the Sysop bit automatically has IPBE on the English Wikipedia, yet it wouldn't let me post. I'm quite sure I have the admin bit. I've manually added IPBE to my sysop account (this one), and now I'm currently adding this section using TOR.  Did they remove IPBE from the basic sysop tool kit?  Is this a bug I need to report?  Not something I'm using to messing with, so throwing out here to my fellow admins.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 14:43, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
:{{re|Dennis Brown}} From [[WP:IPBE]]: "Administrators and bots are always exempt from such blocks (with the exception of Tor blocks)." Apparently you need actual IPBE as an admin to get around Tor blocks and Tor blocks only. Weird. In any event, I'd recommend using an alternative account without sysop if you're testing Tor. Tor has had many vulnerabilities over the years, and it's probably not worth the risk of using your admin account. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 14:59, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

::Probably not a bad idea.  My two alts (Pharmboy and Farmer Brown) both have IPBE anyway, but I usually reserve those for lesser devices where I don't trust the interface and reaction time to use the admin acct, and use this account for my laptop.  I need to read up on TOR a bit more, not something I've used much.  Proxies of one kind or another are impossible to avoid on the road.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 15:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
:::[[Wikipedia_talk:IP_block_exemption/Archive_2#Page_unclear_about_torunblocked_and_admins|How that policy wording came about]]. What you are actually using is the 'torunblocked' bit, which has never been in the sysop package. The IPBE group contains both the ipblock-exempt right (which sysops have) and torunblocked. -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 16:53, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
::::Then we need to add that to the sysop package.  I can't see how that would be controversial.  Not sure how to get that done,  I don't even think a consensus is needed, as it is implied that sysop should be able to do that.  [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2&cent;</b>]] 19:42, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
:::::It'll need an RfC via [[WP:VPR]].  If there's consensus then we can ask a dev to flip the switch.  -[[User talk:Fastily|<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:Indigo;font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-size:120%;">F</span><span style="font-size:90%;">ASTILY</span></span>]] 23:21, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
*Actually, I oppose adding "torunblocked" to the sysop package, but only because I think we should take away the rest of the automatic IPBE right from admins too.  Under our current policy, normal humans who want to use IPBE must convince an admin they have a "demonstrated need", and "''Proxies of one kind or another are impossible to avoid on the road''" has traditionally not cut it. You have to actually demonstrate you're blocked, and then it gets taken away as soon as you're not blocked anymore.  Even for well established editors. Not sure why that all goes out the window when someone gets the admin bit.  This is '''not''' a dig at Dennis (and I should probably apologize for pseudo-hijacking his thread), but it is a dig at the situation. Almost no one besides an admin who wanted to use Tor just because they were travelling would be given this right. I'm not sure admins realize how annoying that distinction is to non-admins. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 19:55, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
**I'd second Floq here, with the caveat that a general relaxation of the issuing of IPBE to non-admins would serve the same effect (such that any reasonable editor can get IPBE if they want it, regardless). [[User:Writ Keeper|Writ&nbsp;Keeper]]&nbsp;[[User Talk: Writ Keeper|&#9863;]][[Special:Contributions/Writ_Keeper|&#9812;]] 19:58, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
***Well, WK, I'm actually kind of disrupting WP to make a point (don't tell anyone).  I'd prefer to relax the IPBE criteria for everyone too. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 20:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
****There are other reasons to use IP exempt than just to be on travelling.  Some of our editors (like me) live in areas of this world where it is utterly annoying to be on an account without such exemptions.  I agree, it is not WP that is the problem here where I live, it is the outside websites that do get spammed but also used as references where I cannot get to, or where I do not want to go without hiding my real IP.  Do you western-worlders understand how annoying the internet becomes when I would constantly have to turn on and off my VPN?  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 08:13, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
*****{{ping|Beetstra}} But that's my whole point.  I'm saying that you shouldn't get special treatment because you're an admin, when a non-admin in your same position would have to either constantly turn on and off their VPN, or ask an admin for IPBE (who may need to consult a checkuser first), justifying in detail why they need it. I'm not saying take IPBE away from you; I'm saying don't give it to admins whether they need it or not, but then make long-term experienced non-admins justify their need for it to some admin, who can just say no. Either you should have to justify your need for it too, or everyone who's been here a certain length of time and demonstrated their good faith editing should be able to get it without begging. I prefer the second option, but the first option is better than what we do now. --[[User:Floquenbeam|Floquenbeam]] ([[User talk:Floquenbeam|talk]]) 15:32, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
******{{ping|Floquenbeam}} But by far most editors don't need the torexempt, and neither do they need ipblockexempt.  I know that this borders on bad faith, but I want editors who have blocked socks to have autoblocks on their main account (and actually, that should be the case for admins as well).  I need torexempt because of other reasons, not because I am an admin (and I requested that globally).  --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 05:20, 29 August 2017 (UTC) (now that did not make sense, correct ping: {{ping|Floquenbeam}} --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 05:21, 29 August 2017 (UTC))
Well, there was an [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)&oldid=773469613#IP_Block_Exemptions_should_be_expanded_to_include_accounts_.285.2B_years.29_in_good_standing RFC] back in February to change the policy, so I've changed the [[Wikipedia:IP block exemption]] page to match the RFC close. <small>[[User talk:NE Ent|NE Ent]]</small> 19:57, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

== New user creating inflammatory articles on mostly self invented terms ==

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Democratic_Backsliding Democratic Backsliding]. Some of these have already been deleted, like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2017_purges_in_the_United_States&action=edit&redlink=1 2017 purges in the United States] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Beta_uprising Beta uprising]. There's still a few created since then that need to go. Most importantly the user should be warned about using Wikipedia as a [[WP:SOAPBOX]] and the policies of [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:SYNTH]] should be explained to them. And they need to stop.<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<b style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;">&nbsp;Volunteer Marek&nbsp;</b>]]</span></small> 23:32, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
:{{replyto|Volunteer Marek}} Gotta notify folks when they're being discussed here. I'll leave a message with the editor regarding their conduct with article creation. You should feel free to report the behavior to [[WP:ANI|the administrator's noticeboard for incidents]] should this crop up again.  [[User:I JethroBT|<b style="font-family:Garamond; color:green">I JethroBT</b>]] [[User talk:I JethroBT|<sup>drop me a line</sup>]] 00:38, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
:I deleted [[Alt-left–Alt-right conflict]] as an obvious self-coinage. This user appears to be trying to create terminology according to their own notions. I'll leave a message. '''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:Acroterion|<span style="color:black;">Acroterion</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<span style="color:gray;">(talk)</span>]]</small></span>''' 01:15, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
::Yeah, I had my [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Usernames_for_administrator_attention&diff=798822448&oldid=798812493 concerns] about this account when I first saw it. [[User:GeneralizationsAreBad|GAB]]<sup>[[User talk:GeneralizationsAreBad|gab]]</sup> 20:21, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

==[[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Magioladitis 2]] closed==

An arbitration case regarding Magioladitis has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
#{{user|Magioladitis}} is indefinitely prohibited from making any edit which only introduces a [[WP:COSMETICBOT|cosmetic change]] (that is, where there is no substantive change made in the same edit). However, Magioladitis may make (without a substantive change in the same edit) or bundle (for example, as part of "general fixes") cosmetic changes from his bot account if the [[WP:BRFA|bot request for approval]] specifically allows this. This sanction supersedes [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Magioladitis#Magioladitis restricted|remedy 7.1]] of the original case.
#Magioladitis is indefinitely prohibited from initiating or participating in any discussion concerning [[WP:COSMETICBOT]], including discussions concerning its impact. Magioladitis may ask specific questions, at the [[WP:BOTN|bot noticeboard]] or [[WP:BRFA|bot request for approval]], to clarify whether bot tasks he wishes to undertake, or is currently undertaking, are permitted under remedy 1.1 of this case. Once a question has been answered, and discussion closed, by an uninvolved BAG member or administrator, Magioladitis is not permitted to raise the same question again, except in a [[WP:ARCA|clarification request]] if required. This sanction supersedes the [[#Community sanction: COSMETICBOT policy|community sanction]] applied in June 2017.
#Magioladitis is indefinitely prohibited from using [[WP:AWB|AWB]], or similar tool (such as [[Wikipedia:WPCleaner|WPCleaner]]), on the English Wikipedia. This prohibition does not apply to bots operated by Magioladitis undertaking [[WP:BRFA|approved]] tasks. For clarity, he may discuss AWB and similar tools (notwithstanding his other sanctions), but may not make edits using them (or a derivative) on the English Wikipedia. This sanction supersedes the [[#Community sanction: AWB|community sanction]] applied in July 2017.
#Magioladitis is reminded that accounts making automated edits (bots) must be approved by the [[WP:BAG|bot approvals group]] before being used. He is indefinitely prohibited from making automated edits from his main ([[User:Magioladitis]]) account.
#For consistent poor judgement and failure to follow Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, Magioladitis is desysopped. He may regain the tools at any time through a successful [[WP:RFA|request for adminship]].

For the Arbitration Committee, [[User:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:navy">Mini</span>''''']][[User_talk:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:#8B4513">apolis</span>''''']] 21:26, 4 September 2017 (UTC) 

: Discuss this at: '''[[Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Magioladitis 2 closed]]'''

== Categorized user script that I am unable to correct ==

The page in question ({{Pagelinks|User:123Steller/common.js}}) is categorized into several article categories (eg. [[:Category:Austria-Hungary]]).

Is there a better place to report these types pages? 

Could a bot be tasked with removing article categories automatically or perhaps user scripts could be banned from being categorized outside of [[:Category:Wikipedia scripts]]? <span style="color:#0645AD;">[[User: Brightgalrs|<span style="color:#0645AD;">'''Brightgalrs'''</span>]] (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)<sup>[[User talk:Brightgalrs|<span style="color:#0645AD;">[1]</span>]]</sup></span> 03:33, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

:It appears [[User:123Steller|123Steller]] has copied the entire content of the [[Austria-Hungary]] article into their .js page for some unknown reason (perhaps they thought it was a sandbox). I'll drop a line on their talk page to ask them to remove it. --[[User:Malcolmxl5|Malcolmxl5]] ([[User talk:Malcolmxl5|talk]]) 03:53, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
:I've deleted that page. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 22:41, 4 September 2017 (UTC)