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== talk deleted, but hidden deletor ==

{{resolved|1=Just a little confusion on the history. -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 00:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)}}

In the discussion page of Illuminati, my comment was deleted by (apparently) 201.34.171.234, but the deletion was masked as if I had done the deletion. This has been reverted, but I wondered WHO and HOW this was done, and if you wanted to know that the IP had been involved in such activities. Searched for an appropriate place to mention this incident, and this seems to be the page. Over to you! [[User:BrianWalker|docboat]] 09:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
:Don’t see anything strange going on there. Somebody [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AIlluminati&diff=143061629&oldid=143017168 restores] a section on talk, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Illuminati&diff=143002391&oldid=142393775 deleted] by an IP, after you had posted a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Illuminati&diff=143017168&oldid=143003950 comment] (which doesn’t mean you did the deletion). If something was unclear, talking to [[User talk:Bigwyrm|Bigwyrm]] (who did the restoring) was probably the best first step. --[[User:Van helsing|Van helsing]] 10:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

== Question ==

hiya, i was wondering how can i edit a page that is protected?
thanks <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:F o b girlie|F o b girlie]] ([[User talk:F o b girlie|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/F o b girlie|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:Well, it's protected, so you can't edit it, but I believe you can use the {{tl|editprotected}} template, which tells you what to do. If the page you want to edit is only semi-protected instead of fully protected, you might like to consider just waiting 4 days: after that, you can edit semi-protected pages, as far as I can remember. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[User talk:Moreschi|Talk]]</sup> 16:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
:If it's protected, you can't edit it. If it's semi-protected, accounts under four days old can't edit it. --<font face="Papyrus"><b>[[user:isis|<font color="green">Isis</font>]]([[user talk:isis|<font color="skyblue">talk</font>]])</b></font> 16:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

==Unblock== 
I need help here, I work at a library on the computer. Two areas have the State mandated Library IP (209.212.2.54), that has been blocked up untill July 1st. the third section runs on a sepreate funded dial up (68.44.245.148), that is blocked untill June 28th. I work in the Third section. Is their anyway to unblock this or make it so only those with accounts can edit. Their are three known people with accounts, (User: Awsometrex, User:Wikimindless, , and Me) The Awsometrex got his card revoked for using the computers in the wrong way as well as looking at, well... "Adult" material. I am sorry for the confusion. Please pardon my english for it is not my native tounge. We really need these IP's unblocked ASAP. [[User:Wormdoggy|Wormdoggy]] 21:08, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

:That account was blocked because an editor was using multiple login accounts from it ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:68.44.245.148 block log]). Because of that, I don't think it would be correct to unblock it now. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 00:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Question about decorative non-free images ==

Please see [[Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content#Book_covers]], where I ask whether images of book covers are acceptable in articles about their books when those articles have no critical commentary about the cover itself. Similar questions apply for album covers and corporate logos. The question whether this is a legitimate "fair use" on Wikipedia will be crucial for making decisions about deleting images with possibly unacceptable fair use rationales. It would be beneficial if a consensus on this can be documented ''before'' we begin evaluating whether images have acceptable fair use rationales. 

This is only an announcement; please keep all comments on [[WT:NONFREE]] so the discussion isn't fragmented. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 00:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Sysop scripts ==

Are automatic deletion/blocking scripts permitted now? I remember seeing [[User:Tawker]]'s proposed bot [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/TawkerbotTorA|fail at RfA]] because people did not agree that sysop tools should be used automatically. Is there an exception to this rule now? I am just curious - I saw someone link to a [[User:Misza13/Scripts/massblock.py|mass blocking]] script quite similar to what Tawker's bot would have used, and allegedly this was mis-used by a particular admin who managed to mis-block a couple of hundred IPs (I believe the ArbCom is currently looking at this particular incident, so let's not start a second debate on it here).--[[User:Konstable|Konstable]] 02:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:There is a difference in the policy depending on whether the script is automatic or manually supervised.  A script that takes a manually prepared list of IP addresses to block and blocks them doesn't violate policy - the person running the script is responsible for any actions the script takes. This is no different than doing the blocks by hand as far as policy is concerned. What is certainly not allowed is a script that watches recent changes on its own and chooses to block editors. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 02:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
== Possible banned user under different name ==

Hello. Noticed that user [[User:Monster Mail|Monster Mail]] has a user page which welcomes contact with an Italian Wikipedia user named Panairjdde. [[User:Panairjdde|Panairjdde]] has been banned from English Wikipedia for sockpuppetry. I don't have any other evidence to support that this might be a sockpuppet so I did not go to that page to open a case, was hoping someone might be able to check into it. Monster Mail seems to frequent the same types of pages Panairjdde did. - [[User:RPIRED|RPIRED]] 21:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks for the find, definite sock. --[[User: Palffy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Palffy</span>]] 16:46, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Tony Little ==

I've deleted [[Tony Little]] under CSD G11 because I felt the article was unrecoverably POV with a bent towards selling his products.  He may be notable enough for an article, but I think it's gotta be a clean slate.  I've posted here because the article was also recently featured on Digg or Reddit or one of those link aggregators and I wanted some external input to the deletion if it turned into a "STAB CHAIRBOY YAARRRGH!" session.  kthxbye - [[User:Chairboy|C<small>HAIRBOY</small>]] ([[User_talk:Chairboy|☎]]) 02:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:I have no comment on the deletion, but the amount of cleanup templates on the last deleted version is simply hilarious - there are 21, with at least two duplicates. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 10:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::The "22:05, June 4, 2007" version by [[User:Wimt]] seems to be mostly free of advertising, though it is still unsourced. The POV was introduced primarily by [[User:Jac for TL]], who is a self-proclaimed employee of Little (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Jac_for_TL&diff=prev&oldid=137476270 here] and [[Talk:Tony Little/Comments|here]]). Perhaps restore the revisions from 7 Oct. 2005 through 4 June 2007, remove any controversial unsourced content, and drop a note on Jac for TL's page regarding [[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest]]? -- '''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Black Falcon|Talk]])''</sup> 04:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Double redirects caused by moves ==

* When I obey requests for page moves, much of my time is taken up with tidying resulting double redirects. Do I have to tidy these double redirects, or will a bot tidy them up within a day or so? [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] 05:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
**I find that, by using tabbed browsing and some copy/pasting, I can get through them pretty quickly.  I'm pretty sure there are bots that fix double redirects, but I think it's best to fix them right away.   Is there a way to do it with [[WP:AWB|AWB]] or something? -[[User:GTBacchus|GTBacchus]]<sup>([[User talk:GTBacchus|talk]])</sup> 06:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::See [http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10499 my bugzilla request]. [[User:Od Mishehu|Od]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Mishehu]] 07:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:::AWB can be used to do that. Initially say A redirected to B. Then you redirected B to C, so get AWB to build its list from "What links here" on B and get it to replace <nowiki>#redirect [[B]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>#redirect [[C]]</nowiki>. But generally a move does not cause more then 4 or 5 dbl redirs. They can easily be fixed manually. 

:::@Od Misheu, are you proposing that redirects be followed till the article is reached? That would cause problems with circular redirects (A redirecting to B; B redirecting to A). It would put everything in an infinite loop. But may be the number of hops may be increased from 1 to, say, 5. But if we keep on making discounts, the navigation structure would never be fixed. --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 08:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

* Page [[AWB]] says "''The AutoWikiBrowser is a semi-automated Wikipedia editor for Microsoft Windows 2000/XP''". But my PC has [[Windows 98]]. Will there be a bot that fixes double redirects?
*: About self-redirect and circles of redirects: can't the process be programmed to stop if it comes to the same page again?
[[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] 09:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

There are several bots around that fix double redirects (including [[User:Scepbot]], [[User:RussBot]] and others whose names I forget), but I don't think it's wise to rely on them. I don't know how they seek problems, and double redirects may go unnoticed for a considerable length of time. --[[User:Stemonitis|Stemonitis]] 10:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:I was specificly suggesting that the number of hops be raised to 2 - this should keep all articles in the process of being moved available directly by all redirects at all times during handling of move. [[User:Od Mishehu|Od]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Mishehu]] 10:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:It's normally, at the most, two or three days (it uses [[Special:Doubleredirects]], which is cached). If you do come across a circular redirect, tag it with {{tl|db-r1}} (spirit, not letter) '''[[User:Sceptre|Will]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 11:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::@Anthony, theoretically circular redirects can be detected that way, but it is not practical. What if there is a chain of 500 redirects after which it redirects back to the start? What if it redirects to some intermediate point in the chain? So, it has to remember and verify against all traversed pages, which becomes very prohibitive. Thats why an upper limit on the stack is needed. (Self redirs are trivially detectable, thats why I am not considering that). --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 14:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
== [[Sunn O)))]] ==

{{Resolved|1=Discussion continuing on the article talk page; not an admin issue. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 19:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)}}
I noted on the talk page at [[Sunn O)))]] that as the "O)))" part of the name is a representation (and not a really accurate one) of a picture / logo rather than a word it should not be included in the title of the Wikipedia article, and [[Sunn (band)]] would be the way forward. One editor described the O))) as an "ASCII picture" which strikes me as something we really shouldn't allow. Of course, the fans of the band who edit the page seem to be of the opinion that this should be an exception, despite the fact that the manual of style disallows such interpretations of stylistic features. Any thoughts? I'd like to be clear about this kind of thing for future reference. <b>[[User:Deiz|<FONT STYLE="verdana" COLOR="#000000">Dei</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF3300">z</FONT>]]</b> <small>[[User talk:Deiz|talk]]</small> 04:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
* The NYT calls them "Sunn0)))"[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/magazine/28artmetal.html?ei=5090&en=68f0bcd99797d7a3&ex=1306468800&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all] a bunch of times.  I think it would be reasonable to use the name that the NewYorkTimes uses. ---[[User:J.smith|J.S]]  <small>([[User_talk:J.smith|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/J.smith|C]]/[[WP:WRE|WRE]])</small> 18:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
::Looking at this further, it looks like in the Outsideleft.com interview they are referred to as "Sunn 0)))"[http://outsideleft.com/main.php?updateID=718] and their official website refers to them as "sunn 0)))"[http://www.sunnborisaltar.com/].  The "0)))" seems to be officially part of the name. ---[[User:J.smith|J.S]]  <small>([[User_talk:J.smith|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/J.smith|C]]/[[WP:WRE|WRE]])</small> 18:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Is that the letter O or a zero? <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C;">howcheng</span>]]'''  <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 01:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Let's [[WP:LAME|edit-war over it]] for a few months. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 02:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

== Proposed change to {{tl|PD-font}} ==

I don't think many people have that template watchlisted, so I am going to seek consensus for the proposed change here. Scalar fonts are considered computer programs and hence copyrightable whereas raster fonts are considered text and hence pd-ineligible. I am seeking consensus to change from the current wording to something like "This does not include images from raster fonts that have been converted to SVG, nor does it include bitmapped images of raster fonts" because as I understand it the original vector coding itself is what is copyrighted, not any image you can produce from the font. This is the same reasoning that allows AMD to copy Intel chips...the circuitry of the chips is copyrighted but the circuit logic is not. Any alternate circuit that produces the same results can be produced legally. -[[:User:Nard the Bard|N]] 23:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

: I've commented at [[Template talk:PD-font]], and encourage others to comment there (as opposed to here) as well.  --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 04:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::I believe [[WT:ICT]] is the correct location for this notice. <span style="font-family:Verdana; ">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C;">howcheng</span>]]'''  <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 01:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[User:T--top]] ==

I have listed [[User:T--top]] at MfD, but this really should be speedy deleted.  Not only is it nothing more than some sort of community notice board, but it's got some serious BLP violations there, as well.  The supposed User associated with the page only has edits to one article outside of the User page in the several months that this page has been here.  [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 22:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Articles for Deletion - [[Democide]] ==

An outside admin would be helpful on the Articles for Deletion, [[Democide]] page [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Democide].  I do not think the majority of the participants understand the issue with [[Wikipedia:Avoid Neologisms]] that brought the deletion case.  [[User:Abe.Froman|Abe Froman]] 22:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:Please read [[WP:CANVASS]].  [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 22:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:: Excuse me, I posted this in '''one''' place, here.  That is labeled "acceptable" in  [[WP:CANVASS]].  [[User:Abe.Froman|Abe Froman]] 22:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Even so, this is not a place to make such a request. You're asking administrators to come and support your reading of a Manual of Style guideline. That's not what this noticeboard is for. [[User:Leebo|<b><font color="#3D59AB">Leebo</font></b>]] [[User_Talk:Leebo|<font color="#2A8E82"><sup><small>T</small></sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Leebo|<font color="#2A8E82"><small>C</small></font>]] 22:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
== Misuse of Infobox criminal ==

Use of [[Template:Infobox Criminal|Infobox criminal]] in the upper right corner of an article generally is reserved for serial killers, gangsters, mass murders, old west outlaws, convicted murders, mafia members, fugitives, FBI 10 most wanted, serial rapist, and mobsters. Infobox criminal also is use as a secondary Infobox in the middle of articles, such as [[Winona Ryder]], [[Martha Stewart]], [[James Traficant]], [[Duke Cunningham]], and [[Tom DeLay corruption investigation]]. I went through all [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Infobox_Criminal&limit=500&from=0 the current uses of Infobox criminal] and believe that it's use violates [[WP:NPOV]] and to some extend [[WP:BLP]] in the following 12 articles:
*[[Andrzej Lepper]] - 
*[[Bernard Ebbers]] - 
*[[E. Howard Hunt]] - 
*[[G. Gordon Liddy]] - 
*[[Jack Abramoff]] - 
*[[Jeffrey Skilling]] - 
*[[Kenneth Lay]] - 
*[[Lewis Libby]] - 
*[[Mark Whitacre]] - 
*[[Michael P. Fay]] - 
*[[Samuel D. Waksal]] - 
*[[Webster Hubbell]] - 
By positioning Infobox criminal as the main infobox in the article, it singles out a relatively small aspect in comparison to the overall lives of these people to give undue weight to that criminal aspect of his/her life. This seems inconsistent with [[WP:NPOV]]. Some of these individuals have significant fame, so [[WP:BLP]] might be a secondary concern rather than a primary concern.  Also, there may be a political motivation for such Infobox criminal use. I think the [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:BLP]] would be resolved if Infobox criminal for these 12 articles reduced to a secondary use, as in [[Winona Ryder]], [[Martha Stewart]], [[James Traficant]], [[Duke Cunningham]], and [[Tom DeLay corruption investigation]]. If you agree with my assessment for any of the above 12 articles, please consider tackling the issue at that article and the entrenched political motivations that may come with it. Please comment next to the name above if the matter is resolved. -- <font face="Kristen ITC">'''[[User:Jreferee|<font color="Blue">Jreferee</font>]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Jreferee|Talk]])''</sup></font> 17:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

:As long as the articles are properly referenced, I see no [[WP:NPOV]] or [[WP:BLP]] issues with the use of {{tl|Infobox Criminal}} on individuals convicted of [[felony]] charges ([[Bernard Ebbers]], [[Jack Abramoff]], etc.) --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 17:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
::[[Al Capone]], [[Jeffrey Dahmer]], [[Theodore Kaczynski]], [[Charles Manson]], and ... [[Jack Abramoff]]? -- <font face="Kristen ITC">'''[[User:Jreferee|<font color="Blue">Jreferee</font>]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Jreferee|Talk]])''</sup></font> 17:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
:::: Perhaps there should be a separate infobox for specific types of criminals (white collar, racketeering, serial criminals)?--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 19:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC) --[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 19:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
:::I agree with Jreferee's view that if the person is notable on there own the criminal infobox should just be used in a later section.  That being said, it may be difficult to determine if certain people were notable before they committed a criminal act or really only because of it (e.g. Scotter Libby would probably not have been heard of by 99% of the public but for the charge and conviction although he was probably notable before conviction).  [[User:Remember|Remember]] 18:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Sorry, the [[United States Code|US criminal code]] does not differentiate between "kinda bad felons" and "really bad felons" (which are ultimately just value judgments).  However it strikes me as being a bit over the top that someone like [[Winona Ryder]] would warrant a {{tl|Infobox Criminal}} since her felony convictions were reduced to misdemeanors.  --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 19:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I would tend to agree that if a person is convicted of a felony (not a misdemeanor), the info box is appropriate. Note my suggestion above about creating separate types of criminal infoboxes.--[[User:Mantanmoreland|Mantanmoreland]] 19:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Having different infoboxes for different criminal convictions really is the best idea, as any attempt to screen out "white collar" crimes (such as those of [[Martha Stewart]], [[Lewis Libby]], etc.) will also remove the infobox from people like [[Al Capone]] (who was ultimately only convicted of [[Tax avoidance and tax evasion|tax evasion]]). --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 20:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
:Why not just use the definition of the word criminal: "A person convicted of a crime" with the added wikipedia stipulation that it was a notable crime. ---[[User:J.smith|J.S]]  <small>([[User_talk:J.smith|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/J.smith|C]]/[[WP:WRE|WRE]])</small> 21:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

It's just a ''name'' of an infobox...a template that the average reader doesn't see.  It could be named {{tl|Infobox of male people}} and it would still do its function &ndash; transclude useful information. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] 20:20, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I have always been under the belief that that infobox was used ''solely'' for the articles dealing with persons notable ''only'' for their crimes, not persons who are notable for other reasons ''besides'' a crime they have committed. [[Winona Ryder]], for instance who is known for her acting career ''not'' her criminal career. It also seems rather random to have that infobox appear in the midst of her article when that information is already covered in a section. For someone like [[Jeffrey Dahmer]] having that information displayed at the top, near the lead paragraph, helps give an annotated version of what makes his criminal career notable. --[[User:Ozgod|Ozgod]] 00:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:NPOV, an article should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, <u>prominence of placement,</u> and juxtaposition of statements. The prominence of placement of such infobox in the above articles is what is raising the [[WP:NPOV]]. -- <font face="Kristen ITC">'''[[User:Jreferee|<font color="Blue">Jreferee</font>]]''' <sup>''([[User talk:Jreferee|Talk]])''</sup></font> 07:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is a lot more interesting than I thought - I thought it was going to be vandalism of the George Bush article.  Although the US criminal code does not distinguish between different crimes for calling them felonies, we do.  That's why we are an encyclopedia.  Just like the the Actor's Guild does not distinguish between different kinds of actors and yet we use the Presidents infobox for Ronald Reagan, not the one for actors.  It is still up to us to assess for POV concerns whether a bio fairly balances the overall achievements of a famous person.  Having said that, the people in the list are known primarily for their crimes.  Nobody would have any idea who Lewis Libby, Jeff Skilling, or Kenneth Lay are but for their notoriety as criminals.  Although you could argue that their criminal deeds were but a small aspect of their life's work, one could also argue that their crimes had a bigger effect on the world and its culture than everything else put together.  You go over that line when you get to people like Martha Stuart or James Brown and of course Paris Hilton and every other star who gets a misdemeanor or felony DUI.  Whatever their crimes, they are not as notable as their accomplishments.[[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 07:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
== Archiving at [[talk:Creation science]] ==

I recently performed a cut-and-paste repair to the archive of this talk page, which was repeatedly reverted by a user whom I consequently blocked. I have received considerable flack since. I would appreciate other admins taking a careful look at my actions and giving me some feedback.  I have placed an outline of my actions on my talk page, at [[User talk:Banno#The sequence of events]]. 

In addition, the archiving of the page is now a mess. Some independent advice to the present editors might be appreciated. [[User:Banno|Banno]] 11:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks for sorting the problem of the history of the talk page being removed, which caused considerable concern. Hopefully, the archiving is now getting back on track by agreement all round. .. [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 22:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

::Yes, despite the repetition of the same error by two people, one an Admin. Oh, forget it, this is a conversation that will go absolutely nowhere, and it's a shame.  I think Banno was acting in AGF as far as the archiving (the block of ornis was bullshit and <s>probably</s> definitely an abuse of Admin powers), but he seems incapable of admitting that his rearchiving helped nothing, and only exacerbated a bad situation.  [[User:Jim62sch|<font face="Times New Roman" color="FF2400">&#0149;Jim</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="F4C430">62</font><font face="Times New Roman" color="000000">sch&#0149;</font>]] 23:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

::The underlying problem here is that, when Banno's "authority" was challenged, he reacted with threats, and then with blocks.  If you make an honest mistake, as Banno appears to have done with the archiving, you don't make threats, you don't block people for fixing your mistakes, and if you claim you are acting because someone violated [section x] of some policy, the onus is on you to find a diff where the policy is actually being violated, something that Banno has refused to do.  The simple fact is that Banno was edit-warring with CO (the editor he blocked) ''before'' the archiving and he admits to edit-warring with CO and Silly Rabbit over the archiving.  So under no circumstances should he have even considered blocking.  In the midst of a heated battle you should ''never'' block.  There are hundreds of other admins on this site - making a highly dubious block in the middle of an edit war shows terrible judgment.  Refusing to consider that you may have made a mistake, despite the intervention of 4 or more admins (and solid contributors like Jim and OM)...just because you're an admin doesn't mean you have the right to behave like George Bush.  [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] 05:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

::In my opinion, the problem at the heart of this is that a couple of editors, acting in good faith, understood [[WP:ARCHIVE]] to favour archiving the whole talk page, then inviting other editors to add back current discussions. That's not my reading of the guidance, which appears to suggest that the archiver leaves or pastes back current discussions. A bit of patience all round and discussions before acting could have avoided a lot of upset, but of course that's easier said than done. The block of CO seems to have begun with a dispute over deleting off-topic trollish ramblings – that's sanctioned under [[WP:TALK]], and in my opinion the block should be formally withdrawn to leave CO's reputation unblemished. Of course I've been known to make mistakes, and so these can only be suggestions. .. [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 08:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Thanks for your considered comments. It's not the case that I had understood [[WP:ARCHIVE]] to favour archiving the whole talk page, but rather that pretty much all of the then-recent discussion (in the few days before this happened) had been contained inside the "trollish ramblings", and had been removed by CO himself. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Creation_science&diff=142236858&oldid=142116616]  That is, it's not that I chose not to re-insert them because of a misunderstanding of policy, but because they appeared to be several days old, and so not recent discussion. But since this was a value judgement, I did invite the editors to re-insert any discussion that they wished to continue, and offered to help them in doing so. [[User:Banno|Banno]] 11:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

:::While I continue to think that CO's editing was disruptive, I now accept that it was more likely to be the result of ignorance of the archiving process on his part rather than deliberate malice, and that I acted hastily in blocking him. I will formally withdraw the block. Thank you Dave, for providing an independent opinion. [[User:Banno|Banno]] 11:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Thanks, I'd hope that settles everything. These articles are part of a very touchy debate, as [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edward-humes/talk-radio-evolution_b_41908.html Talk Radio Evolution] points out rather eloquently, and when dealing with what appears to be trolling we should try to remember [[Grey's Law]]. ... [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 11:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I was thinking of [[Hanlon's razor]] as I wrote my comment above. I promise to take it into account, and to count to ten before I block someone next time. Thank you for finally completing the archiving task. [[User:Banno|Banno]] 22:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for the link to Talk Radio Evolution, too. As a foreigner, I've always found the apparent inability of America to come to terms with evolution, and the level of passion it arouses, a bit of a puzzle. [[User:Banno|Banno]] 22:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Ta, it's really quite extraordinary and as an outsider I too find it hard to grasp the extent of the anti-evolution mindset. .. [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 17:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Although this issue appeared at one stage to be resolved, [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] and [[User:Jim62sch]] have chosen to escalate it at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Banno]]. Again, I'd appreciate any independent comment. [[User:Banno|Banno]] 21:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Vincent Bethell]] ==

{{resolved|1=Article deleted; no inhibition against creating a BLP-compliant, reliably-sourced new version. -- [[User:Jonel|Jonel]] ([[User talk:Jonel|Speak to me]]) 00:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)}}

I've stumbled across this page which has been blanked due to BLP concerns. Can someone take a fresh look to see what needs to be done; either revert or delete the page. Thanks [[User:Kernel Saunters|Kernel Saunters]] 11:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
:I deleted it as G7.  The original author removed the entire article and replaced it with something that was obviously not able to be kept.  That looks like a G7 to me.  [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 14:23, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
::Seems like it might be possible to write a appropriate article about the guy, if the unsourced assertions are true.  Try finding some [[reliable sources]] and maybe prepare a version at [[User:Kernel Saunters/Sandbox]] that's appropriate given [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:BLP]] and it could be put up without difficulty.  Cheers, [[User:WilyD|Wily]][[User talk:WilyD|<span style="color:#FF8800;">D</span>]] 17:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
:While [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] was correct in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=&page=Vincent+Bethell giving a G7] to the version that he saw, there is a previous history of the article in which it was in a much better state.  See the entry called 'Vincent Bethell' in [[Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 9]]. At one time a fairly balanced and neutral article existed. The problem was that the subject kept trashing the article, alternating between self-promotion and simple vandalism, and [[User_talk:EdJohnston/Archive7#Complaint_about_Wikipedia|demanding that he be allowed to control what was in the entry]]. [[User:Vincent bethell]] was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Vincent_bethell  indefinitely blocked ] by [[User:Nick]] on 5 June, and the block seems fully justified. This user also edits via IP addresses, and that must be how he messed up the article again.  I suggest that the history be restored, and that we go back to a neutral version and semi-protect that one, and keep [[User:Vincent bethell]] blocked. The last version that I could see did not appear to raise BLP issues, since there was nothing very alarming, and in any case this is someone who seeks out press coverage to promote nudist issues, even risking arrest to do so. 

:Take a look at [http://www.answers.com/vincent_bethell the version at answers.com] to see a surviving fragment of the neutral version of this article, overlayed with a bunch of POV edits by the subject. (The good version was much better than this one). [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] 18:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
::The problem was that there was stuff in that history that [[User:Walton monarchist89|Walton monarchist89]] felt it necessary to expunge, which is why the earliest revision in the history at the time I deleted it was by [[User:Vincent bethell]].  I understand why it's frustrating to lose the work, but given that I don't see any way to preserve the GFDL-neccessary info without undeleting everything, and that doesn't seem ideal either, it seems to me the best thing would be to start over.  There's been no afd and the title isn't protected, so a carefully sourced, [[WP:BLP]]-compliant article can be written now.  I know this isn't an ideal solution either, so I'm happy to be shot as the messenger here.  [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 18:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
:::I didn't "find it necessary to expunge" anything. The article was tagged for speedy, as it was full of nonsense; I speedied it, but only then noticed that there was a much better version in the history, so I restored it. Subsequent deletions are nothing to do with me. [[User:Walton_monarchist89|Walton]]<sup>[[User talk:Walton_monarchist89|talk]]</sup> 14:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::::The article has been replaced by a protected redirect. See [[User_talk:Kernel Saunters#Vincent Bethell]] for details. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] 15:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Sorry I misread your entries in the logs, then, Walton (since you didn't restore all the revisions, I assumed you meant to remove things from the history).  It was a troublesome article from the start, because of edit-warring about personal info.  As Ed says, it's now a redirect, and I think that's best unless (as I said above) someone wants to take it over. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 05:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Long-term abuse from a floating IP ==

The permabanned editor {{vandal|Light current}} just can't seem to kick the Wikipedia habit.  He edits from the Tiscali DSL IP pool in the UK (apparently 88.108.0.0/14, though Tiscali officially owns all the way out to 88.104.0.0/13), usually anonymously.  (Occasionally he will go to the trouble of creating sleeper socks so that he can edit semiprotected pages or engage in pagemove vandalism.)

*[[:Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Light current]]
*[[:Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Light current]]

Typically his abuse appears on the [[WP:RD|Reference Desks]] and associated pages, but he will also show up on the user and user talk pages of admins who revert his edits.

*Today's history of the Science Ref Desk: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&action=history].  Note large number of edits (reverted) from 88.108.* - 88.111.*.
*History of [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines]]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/guidelines&action=history].  Note large number of sleeper sockpuppets used to evade semiprotection.
*Move log for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=move&user=&page=User%3ATenOfAllTrades User:TenOfAllTrades]
*Move log for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=move&user=&page=User%3AFriday User:Friday]

The guy's obviously got problems, but I'm not sure what our next step is. Revert-block-ignore is of limited effectiveness due to the floating IP.  There are technical limitations in place to prevent me placing a rangeblock of the entire /14 involved; even if that weren't the case, I'd be hesitant to place such a substantial block.  (Is there someone who can work some database magic to determine if much useful stuff ''does'' come from IPs in that range?)

I also have his email address from dealing with him before his permaban; it provides the name of his Tiscali account, and presumably represents his (or his father's) real-world name.

I would welcome any suggestions or advice. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 22:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:Oh, and he's promised to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&diff=143382624&oldid=143381915 back tomorrow]. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 23:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::Can we send it to [[WP:ABUSE]] for an ISP investigation? -- [[User:ReyBrujo|ReyBrujo]] 23:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::: Short of blocking half of Tiscali's IP addresses, an ISP complaint may be the best way forward. I wonder if [[Wikipedia:Abuse reports/88.109.x.x 88.110.x.x and 88.111.x.x Ranges]] is LC's doing also? [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 01:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

::::I couldn't say, but I don't know that Light current has ever demonstrated an interest in the Malamute.  Perhaps there are two nuisances in the one IP range? [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 02:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


:I have filed a report at [[WP:ABUSE]]: [[Wikipedia:Abuse reports/Tiscali DSL]].  Additional comment/correction/expansion is welcomed. [[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 02:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Any bored admins? ==

PROD has a 2 day backlog, and there are plenty of NowCommons deletions to take care of :) ~ [[User talk:Riana|Riana <span style="color:green;">⁂</span>]] 08:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:I'm game! ;) [[User:Phaedriel|<b><span style="color:#009900;">P<span style="color:#00AA00;">h<span style="color:#00BB00;">a<span style="color:#00CC00;">e<span style="color:#00DD00;">d</span>r</span>i</span>e</span>l</span></b>]] - 08:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:Have started Riana. Thanks for the heads-up. --[[User:VirtualSteve|<strong>VS</strong>]] <sup>[[User_talk:VirtualSteve|talk]]</sup> 09:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:Me too, for fear of incurring Riana's wrath --[[User:Stephen|<b>Steve</b> <sub> (Stephen) </sub>]][[User talk:Stephen|<sup> talk </sup>]] 11:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:: *cracks whip and cackles insanely* Good work, all ;) ~ [[User talk:Riana|Riana <span style="color:green;">⁂</span>]] 13:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:::I'm on it, too.  Though Riana is always welcome to hurt me. -[[User:FisherQueen|FisherQueen]] ([[User talk:FisherQueen|Talk]]) 13:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Obviously not as welcome as I thought, I internal error-ed with you a few times last night :) ~ [[User talk:Riana|Riana <span style="color:green;">⁂</span>]] 02:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::You all have '''''way''''' too much fun :).  That's why I like ya!  **Heads back to prod deletions** [[User:Jmlk17|<span style="color:#008000">Jmlk</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Jmlk17|<span style="color:#000080">1</span>]][[User_talk:Jmlk17|<span style="color:#800000">7</span>]] 05:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Why are there no [[Special:Listusers/Boardvote|board admin]] jokes, there needs to be a board admin joke. [[User:Prodego|<span style="color:darkgreen;">''Prodego''</span>]] [[User talk:Prodego|<sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk</sup>]] 05:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Talk page problems resulting from page move ==

{{resolved|talk page moved to proper location}}
The talk page at [[Template talk:Professional Gridiron football leagues]] seems to be a couple of page moves behind.  Could you please correct the talk page so I can see the history.--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|c]]/[[User:TonyTheTiger/Antonio Vernon|bio]]/[[ User:TonyTheTiger/WPChiDirector |tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM]]) </small> 21:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
== History merge help ==

{{resolved|1=Or seems to be?}}

In [[Brian Whelahan]], I attempted a history merge. Can someone review my efforts and explain to me how to handle history merges in the future where there are edits in the source article after the cut and paste move? [[User:Jesse Viviano|Jesse Viviano]] 04:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
*It looks fine. I think you should be okay if you just move the articles in question to the same spot, then restore all deleted edits (unless in rare situations where an edit contains personal info and should stay deleted). --[[User talk:W.marsh|W.marsh]] 18:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
**Yep. In the basic case (two pages to be merged, no deleted edits, no splitting to be done, no distinctions to be made), you can just move the one page over the target, which will delete the target; then, restore deleted edits, and make sure the currently displayed page version is the right one. Personally, I recommend copy-pasting the preferred version to Notepad or a similar application ''before'' moving things around, it can get a bit confusing once everything turns into redirects. ;) If there are deleted edits present, or other issues, things can get much more complicated. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 08:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Curious userpage ==

{{resolved}}

Compare the new [[User:Similaun0807]] with [[User:GTBacchus]].  [[User:TedFrank|THF]] 13:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:people do clone userpages from time to time.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 13:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::appears to be a subtle vandalism account, duplicating same tactics as [[User:William Reid Blyton]], also a cloned userpage.  [[User:TedFrank|THF]] 13:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::May be a sockpuppet of [[User:Panairjdde]]? I'll take to AN/I. [[User:TedFrank|THF]] 13:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::::I wouldn't discuss this further. Obvious [[User:Panairjdde]] sockpuppets. --[[User: Palffy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Palffy</span>]] 16:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Where is the evidence? Userpage cloning isn't something used for sock accusation. [[User:Wooyi|Wooyi]]<sup>[[User talk:Wooyi|Talk to me?]]</sup> 23:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::The evidence is his contributions. He creates a sock with a similar name to the one he had blocked recently, [[User:Similaun]], and begins his "WP life" by reverting my reverts of [[User:Panairjdde]] sockpuppet edits (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Similaun0807 contributions]). --[[User: Palffy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Palffy</span>]] 23:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Okay, I will look into it. Thanks. [[User:Wooyi|Wooyi]]<sup>[[User talk:Wooyi|Talk to me?]]</sup> 16:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::But regardless of whether or not you agree that he's a sockpuppet of Panairjdde, it's clearly not a good idea to revert back to a user page that claims that the user is an administrator and gives names of 24 articles he has worked on, when the contributions show that he registered that day, and has a total of ''five'' article edits. By the way, a checkuser has now blocked him indefinitely as a Panairjdde sock. [[User:ElinorD|ElinorD]] [[User talk:ElinorD|(talk)]] 21:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, creepy.  I've never seen someone try to get away with something by pretending to be ''me'' before.  Did he really think that was going to work?  Perhaps I should feel honored?? -[[User:GTBacchus|GTBacchus]]<sup>([[User talk:GTBacchus|talk]])</sup> 21:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:Nah, it's an annoying habit he's gotten into, thinking he can avoid his sock blocks by pretending to be credible. Not sure if you really want to be honored by a person who's gone through [[Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard/Archive9#Community_ban_of_User:Panairjdde|this]]. ;)) --[[User: Palffy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Palffy</span>]] 22:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
::I expect you to keep a lid on your impersonators, in the future! :p &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 08:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Awaiting response from StormRider ==

{{resolved|1=Pending further report, this seems about as resolved as it's going to get, for the moment. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 07:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)}}

I have yet to be notified as to wheather or not StormRider will be allow to get away with making completly and blatanly Racist remarks about American Indians. I will not contirbute to a site that allows this kind of behavior. He himself even admits that it is racist and continued the personal attacks on the administrators page by accusing me of Trolling. If Wikipedia is going to allow this kind of behavior then I will have no choice but to consider Wikipedia a fellow contributor to the spread and condonment of racism.--[[User:Billiot|Billiot]] 13:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:Do you have any [[WP:DIFF|diff-links]] that show where he made those comments? Thanks, ---[[User:J.smith|J.S]]  <small>([[User_talk:J.smith|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/J.smith|C]]/[[WP:WRE|WRE]])</small> 16:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:<s>And yes, the edits of '''one''' person means that the entire editing base of 10,000 is racist. Yeah, thats a logical conclusion. </s>---[[User:J.smith|J.S]]  <small>([[User_talk:J.smith|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/J.smith|C]]/[[WP:WRE|WRE]])</small> 16:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC) (striking out my own incivility... sorry, my comments were uncalled for. ---[[User:J.smith|J.S]]  <small>([[User_talk:J.smith|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/J.smith|C]]/[[WP:WRE|WRE]])</small> 16:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC))
* I'm going to leave you a note about this issue on your talk page.  Perhapse we can find some common ground between you and [[User:Storm Rider]]. ---[[User:J.smith|J.S]]  <small>([[User_talk:J.smith|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/J.smith|C]]/[[WP:WRE|WRE]])</small> 16:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
**I see there's been some discussion, after this; as far as this board is concerned, it seems to be resolved, for the time being. Feel free to make additional reports as needed. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 07:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Inappropriate user page? ==

{{resolved|1=Or seems to be. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 07:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)}}

I'm not sure if this is the right place, so apologies if not... The user page [[User:Felker30]] seems to violate WP policy, [[WP:NOT]] etc (and is a little bit creepy). The user has made no edits except to this user page and uploading images for the user page. --[[User:Belovedfreak|<span style="color:#003366">Beloved</span>]][[User talk:Belovedfreak|<span style="color:#003333">freak</span>]] 18:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
:Deleted as per [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a blog, webspace provider, social networking, or memorial site]]. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] [[User_talk:CambridgeBayWeather|(Talk)]] 18:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Moving ==

{{resolved|1=Gadfium's response is on the mark. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 07:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)}}

I cannot move pages on the English Wikipedia. On the Simple English Wikpedia, I can move pages, but somehow, on the English Wikipedia, I do not have the "Move" tab on my account. Please explain. I am a newbie (on both wikipedias), but I have been on [http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ionas68224 Simple] longer than I have here. --[[User:Bibliotheque|<code>biblio</code>]][[Special:Emailuser/Bibliotheque|theque]] [[User talk:Bibliotheque|<font color="red" face="stencil">(Talk)</font>]] 03:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:Your account has to be at least four days old to be able to move pages on the English Wikipedia. I don't know what the policies are on Simple English.-[[User talk:gadfium|<span style="font-family:cursive; color:#808080;">gadfium</span>]] 04:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
::They are much...simpler.  HA HA.  *flees* [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] 04:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

== Unusual notice ==

I know it's unuusual to put up a notice at AN for something like this, but the [[Chuck E. Cheese's]] article is absolutely atrocious, and has been a constant source of unchecked vandalism for apparently at least a year now. It appears to be an oft-vandal magnet, as it's a popular target among elementary age kids. I'm requesting that some other people watchlist this article so we can revert vandalism better. Thanks. [[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] 16:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:I've added it to my watchlist.  Thanks for the heads up.--<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size:11pt">[[User:Kubigula|Kubigula]] ''([[User talk:Kubigula|talk]])''</span> 16:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
::I'm tackling the horrorshow wording, and I'm guessing copyvio of the history sect. I'm watching as well. [[User:Flyguy649|Flyguy649]] [[User talk:Flyguy649|<sup>talk</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Flyguy649|<sub>contribs</sub>]] 16:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:::[[Showbiz Pizza Place]] also seems to contain much of the same history info as was in the Chuck E. Cheese article - seems to make up most of that article, in fact. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Tony Fox|review?]]</small> 18:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Merging with [[Showbiz Pizza Place]] is contraindicated as that article appears to be wholesale copyvio taken from http://rock_afire.tripod.com/info/history/index.html. - [[User:Chairboy|C<small>HAIRBOY</small>]] ([[User_talk:Chairboy|☎]]) 15:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Moved article assistance please ==

{{resolved|1=Or seems to be. Remove if not.}}

The article [[Sandeep Deshpande]] is up for AFD right now; problem is, that article as it stands started out as [[Williams Sassine]] and appears to have been moved to this name. Now, we've got Williams Sassine that looks like it is a cut-and-paste replacement of the move-created redirect, and this up-for-deletion article (which was just relisted, despite my explaining this in the AFD discussion) which contains the edit history of the proper Williams Sassine article. So! Can I suggest that someone with the magic buttons please delete the current edition of [[Williams Sassine]], and move [[Sandeep Deshpande]] to that location, to ensure the edit history is correct? I think that'll sort it out... [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Tony Fox|review?]]</small> 20:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:I've [[WP:HISTMERGE|histmerged]] the two; we need to keep the old history for [[GFDL]] compliance, but otherwise it's clear these are redundant articles. I don't believe this should cause any problems, please advise if you notice any. I haven't deleted the redirects, at this time, but would be happy to drop a note at any [[WP:RFD|RfD]], if you like. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 07:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::I think the [[Sandeep Deshpande]] page should be speedily deleted, RfD is not necessary. It does not look like they are the same person. I looked up the net about [[Williams Sassine]]; he does not have anything significant to do with anything Indian to get an Indian name. The initial move appears a vandalism move. --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 08:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Luna, perhaps you can speedy delete the Redirect as the sole author? I'm certain they are not the same person, see for example: http://www.lesfrancophonies.com/PAGES/maison/AUTEURS2002/Sassine.htm [[User:DrKiernan|DrKiernan]] 09:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::::I have deleted the redirect. Feel free to restore if you disagree. --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 09:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Thanks, folks! [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Tony Fox|review?]]</small> 15:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Michael Howard impersonator ==

[[User:Owlperson]], assisted by [[User:Crowqueen]], has been posting as [[Michael Howard]], and taken seriously by other users. Michael Howard's office confirms this is a hoaxer, and I've indef blocked the users. I suggest verification is required in such cases, and the user asked not to contribute under a RL identity until it is received.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Owlperson&diff=143553679&oldid=143470417] I'm not sure where the best place for such guidance would be. [[User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] 13:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[1993-94 OHL season]] ==

{{resolved|deleted article and page history restored}}
After a user moved this page to another title, an inexperienced editor apparently attempted to move it back, but instead managed to leave the page as a redirect to itself.  The original content appears to have been deleted, and an admin's assistance may be needed to restore that content.  --[[User:R'n'B|Russ]] [[User talk:R'n'B|(talk)]] 15:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:<s>Ok, I tried to restore the page, but nothing seems to have happened, only now I cannot access the previously deleted version. Can a more experience admin examine what I did and tell me where I went wrong, and if the situation is salvagable? Sorry about this.-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew&nbsp;c]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 15:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)</s> OK, perhaps I just had to wait for the cache to catch up or something. It seems to have worked. I have restored the page at [[1993-94 OHL season]]. If you want the page at another title, I'd be glad to help with that as well, but I'd like to make sure there is consensus for whatever title to be used to avoid future page moves or copy and paste moves.-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew&nbsp;c]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 15:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
== Month-long backlog ==

[[:Category:Disputed non-free images]]--[[User:Konstable|Konstable]] 11:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:Can I put in a plea for help fix these images?  Most just have missing (ex: [[:Image:Louisburg college logo.gif | 1 ]] [[:Image:Minority.jpg | 2 ]] [[:Image:Lonelyplanetlogo.png | 3 ]]) or incomplete (ex: [[:Image:Ml logo.png | 4]] [[:Image:Linkedin Logo.gif | 5 ]]) fair use rationales.  Only a few are irredeemably mis-tagged (ex [[:Image:Lowerfalls.jpg |5]]) or ineligible for non-free use (ex: [[:Image:Theenigmalive.jpg | 6 ]]).  [[WP:FURG#Speedy_deletion | WP:FURG]] says we should to fix them before deleting so if you see an obvious case please add the rationale.  To make that a lot faster I'm rolling out some templates to augment the FURG master template.  [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 13:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::And remember to look out for other problems, like [[:Image:EI Unrepeatable Cover.jpg|this image]] has. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 13:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::And more here! [[:Category:Images with no fair use rationale]] --[[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 13:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::::If I may say so, I've been chipping away nicely at the I6 backlog.  It was much larger.  The backlog was at 26 days at the start of the month due to the temporary moratorium on I6 deletions.  Now the backlog is down to 13 days, still large, but a big step in the right direction. --[[User:After Midnight|After Midnight]] <sup><small>[[User talk:After Midnight|0001]]</small></sup> 19:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I don't know if anyone's noticed but the main CSD page seem to be missing the big pile at [[:Category:Images with no fair use rationale as of 6 June 2007]]. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 21:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Are there guidelines for admins that want to help out but are relatively new to non-free image use? I'm familiar with [[WP:FU]], but I'm not exactly sure on some points. Are logos and album covers generally allowed in articles about the album/organization, even if there is no critical commentary on the album cover? Are there any requirements that an article about an album must meet before an image can be included, or is there a generic fair use rationale that applies to basically all album covers (as long as they are not used for decoration in other articles, such as galleries or discography pages). Most, if not all images of living people (especially "promotional" photos) are deletable, right? Are there any other tips? It's obviously easier to simply delete articles that have improper license/no fair use, but I want to learn the situations where its better to fix the problems than delete (and I want to learn how to fix). So any tips would be appreciated.-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew&nbsp;c]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 21:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:On point #1, absolutely, yes.  Not "in" per se, but the purpose of identification is currently widely accepted.  And they must also meet other requirements, e.g. knowing the source.   "Decoration" is not really a sensible concept, it snuck into the policy page recently and will probably sneak back out in favor of better constructs.  That is currently under discussion over at [[Wikipedia talk:Non-free content‎]].  It is always better to fix than delete because every time you delete you are undoing not only the work someone spent a while doing, but the availability of knowledge to an audience of hundreds of millions of people who use Wikipedia.  If the fair use rationale is obvious, add one, don't delete the image.  Right now there are no good automated solutions to fixing images, however.  Some people have gotten adept at deleting images at 5-10 per minute using the tools.  It takes 1-2 minutes to add a fair use rationale even if you're very good and that's a matter of rolling up your sleeves and typing.  But keep in mind it took someone a while to add it.  They did it in good faith when the rules were different and if you delete it someone will have to add it again or else the world will do without.  No doubt other people have different opinions. [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 21:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

::Ok, that helps some. I started going through the unknown source backlog. I've deleted a couple that were orphaned with no source or licensing info. But what would you guys suggest be done with [[:Image:26011907.jpg]], [[:Image:1913 Katharina.jpg]], and [[:Image:1537985.jpg]]? The first two seem like they are inappropriately tagged GFDL, and therefore wouldn't pass FUC #1 as these are living people. The album cover seems like it could be acceptable, so should it be tagged with a album cover license, and a fair use rationale added, and the source field ignored? -[[User:Andrew c|Andrew&nbsp;c]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Andrew c|<sup>[talk]</sup>]] 00:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::The first one is kind of tough.  It's an old photo that may or may not be public domain.  It's not old enough to be, but it could have happened.  Perhaps the uploader forgot to add something.  The same user, though relatively light on Wikipedia, has made a bunch of sincere edits to Scandinavian-related articles.  I notice that there's no tag on the article discussion page.  What's with that?  A dozen or two editors have been working on the article for a couple years.  There's a delete tag on the image but no notice to the talk page?  So if you delete it they will all be blindsided.  They have no idea or reasonable way of knowing it's going to happen.   One day the image will be missing.  It's a new image, only a couple months old, so no great harm.  The second image is easier.  It's an article less than a month old about an album that isn't even out.  If those people can't be bothered to get their images right it's time they learned, if they mean to stay around on Wikipedai.  That's not the official way to do it, that's just my thought process.  Even on the first image, if they can't get to where the image comes form and whether it's truly free use, we can't have it.  All the patience in the world, but the image still has to be legitimate.  [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 00:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== Local Spam Blacklist ==

Any English Wikipedia administrator may now edit [[MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist]] (a local version of [[M:Spam blacklist]]) to blacklist URLs linked to by spammers. URLs added to that list will only be blacklisted on the English Wikipedia, rather than Wikimedia-wide like the ones [[M:Spam blacklist]]. [[User:FunPika|<span style="color:blue"><b>Fun</b></span>]][[User_Talk:FunPika|<span style="color:green"><b>Pika</b></span>]] 19:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:Hmm ... nothing could possibly go wrong with that ... --[[User:BigDT|<font color="maroon">Big</font><font color="orange">ΔT</font>]] 19:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks, much obliged. I wouldn't have known otherwise :) [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[User talk:Moreschi|Talk]]</sup> 20:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Where to file bug reports? ==

{{resolved|1=Or seems to be. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 01:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)}}

Is this a bug, or is it just on my computer?
#Try going to the 'history' of, say, this page.
#Try choosing some diff. (Any diff should work)
#On the screen that shows the diff, try clicking on, say, "history".
Am I the only one getting directed to 'Wikipedians'? (But I don't know where to file bug reports) [[User:Bladestorm|Bladestorm]] 19:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:Goto [[bugzilla:|bugzilla]] to file bug reports. [[User:FunPika|<span style="color:blue"><b>Fun</b></span>]][[User_Talk:FunPika|<span style="color:green"><b>Pika</b></span>]] 19:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:I am getting that too!  If I go to [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians]], I get a random article.  Why is this happening? [[User:Joie de Vivre|Joie de Vivre]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:Joie de Vivre|T]]</small></small></sup> 19:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::See [[bugzilla:10529]]. [[User:FunPika|<span style="color:blue"><b>Fun</b></span>]][[User_Talk:FunPika|<span style="color:green"><b>Pika</b></span>]] 20:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::No problem now. [[User:FunPika|<span style="color:blue"><b>Fun</b></span>]][[User_Talk:FunPika|<span style="color:green"><b>Pika</b></span>]] 20:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians]] ==

{{resolved|1=Or seems to be. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 01:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)}}

I think I may be going crazy, does anyone know what the heck is going on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikipedians&action=history here]? I'm not really sure what to make of it, but people are changing the page to display what appear to be real articles. Also while trying to revert vandalism [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Benoit_family_tragedy&diff=prev&oldid=143796935 here] it took me to the Wikipedians' page. Anyone have a thought to spare? [[User:KnowledgeOfSelf|<font color="#151B8D">K</font><font color="#7D1B7E">O</font><font color="#6D7B8D ">S</font>]] | [[User talk:KnowledgeOfSelf|<font color="#461B7E">talk</font>]] 19:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:Ah see above, I was beaten to it. [[User:KnowledgeOfSelf|<font color="#151B8D">K</font><font color="#7D1B7E">O</font><font color="#6D7B8D ">S</font>]] | [[User talk:KnowledgeOfSelf|<font color="#461B7E">talk</font>]] 19:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Possible database issue? ==

While trying to revert some anonymous edits to {{la|Independent Task Force on North America}}, some really odd stuff is happening.  Hitting this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Independent_Task_Force_on_North_America&diff=143756453&oldid=143744059 Newer edit →] link in the article's history instead goes to a diff on [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians]].  Likewise, trying to compare any of the article's diffs after 11:25 today also takes you to [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians]].  Does the database server have some of its pointers crossed ... ? --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 19:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:Everyone, please see [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Bizarre glitch?|this thread]] on AN/I. [[User:Fvasconcellos|Fvasconcellos]]<small>&nbsp;([[User talk:Fvasconcellos|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Fvasconcellos|c]])</small> 19:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Lost history ==

I moved [[History of the People's Republic of Bulgaria]] to [[History of Communist Bulgaria]] and [[History of the People's Socialist Republic of Albania]] to [[History of Communist Albania]] by cutting and pasting. The edit history was lost and I'd like the full history to be restored at the new locations. Can this be done? [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] 21:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:Please note that the History of the People's Republic of Bulgaria was restored to its rightful and more common (according to Google Books and Google Scholar) name.[[User:Anonimu|Anonimu]] 22:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:See [[WP:SPLICE]]. Regardless of where the title winds up, we need to get the history patched. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 00:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== Request for &lt;s&gt;validation&lt;/s&gt; review ==

Weird note and marginally appropriate venue, but I just realized I was the first to request speedy deletion for [[Allison Stokke|this notorious article]] while newpage patrolling back in April. Although that particular revision ''did'' clearly meet the criteria (unlike several posterior ones IMHO) I still feel this makes my reply to question 6a on [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fvasconcellos|my RfA]] seem incredibly disingenuous. Is there a "Wikipedia Confessions department" where I can, erm, disclose this? :) [[User:Fvasconcellos|Fvasconcellos]]<small>&nbsp;([[User talk:Fvasconcellos|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Fvasconcellos|c]])</small> 03:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:Your sins are absolved, my son.  Just say three hail Jimbos on the way out. --[[User:Stephen|<b>Steve</b> <sub> (Stephen) </sub>]][[User talk:Stephen|<sup> talk </sup>]] 03:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::You forgot to absolve the sins in the name of Jimbo! <code>:)</code>—'''[[User:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0; font-family:cursive;">Kurykh</span>]]''' 03:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Thank you, Father Steve. ''Our Jimbo, who art in St. Petersburg, hallowed be thy logs...'' [[User:Fvasconcellos|Fvasconcellos]]<small>&nbsp;([[User talk:Fvasconcellos|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Fvasconcellos|c]])</small> 03:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
== [[Great Pyramid of Giza]] ==

I just changed the protection level to full protection because of edit warring going on among registered users. Would someone take a look and let me know if you think my decision was correct? Thanks [[User:JodyB|<font color="#FFFFFF" face="Arial Bold"><span style="background-color: #0000FF">'''Jody'''</span><span style="background-color:#30D5C8">'''B'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:JodyB|'' talk'']]</sub></font> 17:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

: Looking at the edits I don't think it's needed. [[User:Narinen]] needs blocking for [[WP:3RR]] and what amounts to vandalism. This is a fringe viewpoint trying to push over the article from an unreliable source, not standard edit warring. [[User:Ben W Bell|<font color="Blue">'''Ben W Bell'''</font>]] [[User talk:Ben W Bell|''<font color="Blue">talk</font>'']] 17:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::I've changed it back to semi after talking with other admins and after the editor was blocked. Thanks for your input. [[User:JodyB|<font color="#FFFFFF" face="Arial Bold"><span style="background-color: #0000FF">'''Jody'''</span><span style="background-color:#30D5C8">'''B'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:JodyB|'' talk'']]</sub></font> 17:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Wow!  Looking at the edit history, I counted at least 28 reverts so far today and at least ten socks.  [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Artemisse|Someone]] sure has an axe to grind!  --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 18:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Is it a dynamic IP, or open proxies?  Is there any reason he's not permabanned? - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<font color="green">e</font>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 12:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I've submitted a request for checkusers to block the IP address(es) involved, if possible; until then, or if not, we can only be vigilant. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 07:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[[Great Pyramid of Giza]] has always been a kook magnet & a perennial problem for [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Egypt]]; I'll put it on my watchlist, but any interested & otherwise uninvolved Admins are invited to add it to theirs. Also, I was informed Narinen engaged in a similar edit war at [[Hyksos]], & may be a sock for another troublemaker. (I don't know the exact details.) I referred the editors handling that other page to [[WP:SOCKS]] (I think that's the correct abbreviation.) -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] 18:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== Hoaxer ==

Can someone please deal with the hoaxer(s) using ips registered to Microsoft- they are the ones beginning with 65. listed at [[Talk:Barbaro_family#Dynamic_IP_Nest]] as well as one who is currently vandalizing [[Special:Contributions/65.54.154.152]]. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 09:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:Note this also involves two hoax articles currently for deletion [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Pugilist Club]] [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent]] authored by this user. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 10:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::Looking at these lists, it seems like we're talking mostly about 65.54.154.*, 65.54.155.*, 65.54.97.* and 65.54.98.*. Are there any others? [[User:Od Mishehu|Od]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Mishehu]] 10:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::I think that's all of them. Is it likely to be someone at Microsoft or are they somehow using Microsoft servers to access Wikipedia? [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 11:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::::I'd say I'm 99.9999% sure those are not actually anyone at Microsoft.  If you look at pre-hoax contributions for any of the IPs, they're almost exclusively kid-oriented stuff: cartoons, video games, pro wrestling, etc.  Consider me officially amazed if these aren't actually high-school IPs.  For what it's worth (not much) the hoaxer himself has denied having anything to do with Microsoft, although I guess they'd say that either way. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><span style="color:#FF0000;">St</span><span style="color:#FF5500;">ar</span><span style="color:#FF8000;">bli</span><span style="color:#FFC000;">nd</span></b> 23:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Oh, the irony. The msn user [[User:WBardwin|WBardwin]], who has been trying to help out with this, got caught by the autoblocker at 65.54.98.109, the IP used by [[User:Thost|Thost]]. Would that mean these IPs are dangerous&ndash;and perhaps pointless?&ndash;to block?  [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 08:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC).
::::::Saw that, too, but you dealt with it before I could. Given that they seem to be dynamic, I'm not sure if there's a lot we can do, aside from watching for and helping with collateral. Assuming you have email enabled, I'll send you a slightly [[WP:BEANS]]y detail on autoblocks, in a moment. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 08:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::I strongly suspect that this one too is connected with this hoax [[User talk:65.54.155.48]] I have just removed a load of what I suspect is rubbish from [[Balti dynasty]] which claimed our modern day Barbaro hero's mother was descended from this pre-Roman dynasty. There are no families existing who can reliably make this claim. [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 10:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::The hoaxer(s) also uses addresses beginning 4.142...., [[Special:Contributions/4.142.114.175]], [[Special:Contributions/4.142.117.148]], [[Special:Contributions/4.142.117.210]], [[Special:Contributions/4.142.117.250]], [[Special:Contributions/4.142.114.237]]- which are ips of Level 3 Communications, Inc., and all trace to [[Chicago]] or [[Tinley Park]], [[Illinois]]. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 10:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::*yes I had spotted him too. Here he is deliberately falsifying  the correctly referenced quote from a very eminent author indeed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Balti_dynasty&diff=138046947&oldid=105588389] in order to show dome modern day person's possibly fraudulent ancestry.  This is the sort of think that Wikipedia's critics love to seize on, and needs to be stamped on hard and fast - with these amount of IPs though the question is how? [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 11:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Well they obviously aren't that advanced as they keep using the same providers so ATM it's easy to recognise them. We might need to go through all the 65...and 4.142...edits that we can find to check what they have done to other articles. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 11:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::How the hell does one do that? I think this is all some vanity and delusion of someone trying to claim a few bogus ancestors - the problem is they are damaging some good pages in the process. [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 11:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Don't feel bad, I dealt with these guys on OTRS and the problem is big. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 11:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== Hoax threat ==

Note in addition to the Hoaxer thread above, the hoaxers have now admitted what they were doing [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Giano_II&diff=prev&oldid=143840686] and it looks like they are threatening to sabotage more pages. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 23:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:Hm... I'll try and keep an eye on this, I guess. Looking things over, I think I may have blocked a few of these, previously. Now that I'm a bit more aware of the pattern, hopefully I'll know what to look for. If you need admin attention, feel free to drop me a note. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 02:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:Note as well as Microsoft/MSN dynamic ips they use ips of Level 3 Communications, Inc., beginning 4.142.. which trace to [[Chicago]] and [[Tinley Park]], [[Illinois]]. [[User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel|Gustav von Humpelschmumpel]] 10:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:One wonders which article they think they killed.  [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 16:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== User category in category space for articles ==

Recently, I came across [[:Category:Fictional maps by User:Briangotts]] and [[:Category:Historical maps by User:Briangotts]].  After some initial lack of communication, we now agree that the categories should exist as part of the [[:Category: User-created maps]] hierarchy.  However, I am more concerned about these categories being included in the [[:Category:Fictional maps]] and [[:Category:History maps]] categories.  The reason is because it appears that user content is part of the article space.  It looks like the equivalent of an editor adding his or her signature to the text of an article, and it seems to violate the guidelines at [[WP:CAT]] under "User namespace".

I have had communication problems with [[User:Briangotts]], and the discussion has been heated.  At this point, I would like to avoid an edit war with him.  Could another administrator intervene and possibly provide advice on this issue?  [[User:Dr. Submillimeter|Dr. Submillimeter]] 12:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Those two Briangotts categories should only be in the User-created category.  [[WP:ASR|Avoid self reference]] may be of use.[[User:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; font-family: cursive ;color: #006600">Neil</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; color: #006600"><big>╦</big></span>]] 12:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:This is a content issue and not an administrator issue. I would suggest taking this to [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion]] (either on the talk page or by nominating them). --[[User:JLaTondre| JLaTondre]] 12:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::It probably is a admin issue, as Brian has refused to take heed of Dr S's correct request.  Irrespective,  I've left a message on Brian's talk page.  [[User:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; font-family: cursive ;color: #006600">Neil</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; color: #006600"><big>╦</big></span>]] 12:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::This is not an issue for [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion]], which generally does not deal with editing the contents of categories but instead deals with merging, renaming, or deleting categories.  Thank you for contacting the user about this issue, and thank you for the speedy action.  [[User:Dr. Submillimeter|Dr. Submillimeter]] 12:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
*I dissent that these categories should exist in the first place, and have listed them on [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 July 11]]. [[User_talk:Radiant!|<b><span style="color:#0000DD;">&gt;<span style="color:#0066FF;">R<span style="color:#0099FF;">a<span style="color:#00CCFF;">d<span style="color:#00EEFF;">i</span>a</span>n</span>t</span>&lt;</span></b>]] 13:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: Submillimeter's point appears to be purely formalistic, and Wikipedia is not about formalism, for what I know. Since we have user-created categories in Commons, I don't see why we can't have them in Wikipedia and why we should nominate them for deletion (as Brian's was last night). As for the overlapping of spaces, I believe the transgression is rather harmless. Unlike Neil, I don't feel strongly about it. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 13:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I don't particularly feel strongly about it, but keeping mainspace and non-mainspace categories seperate is done for a good reason.  However, I think Radiant is wrong to want them deleted. [[User:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; font-family: cursive ;color: #006600">Neil</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; color: #006600"><big>╦</big></span>]] 13:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[2007 Balad aircraft crash]] ==

Hey, we've got an unresponsive user here who has persistently been fiddling around with this article - apparantly good-faith, but various negative things going on. For example, he continually removes the only correctly liscenced image and has added a pile of images without sources or copyright tags, apparantly of the crash. I have attempted to raise the issue on is talk page, but he hasn't responded. I would continue to revert any poor edits on a case by case basis, as well as seeing about getting the problem images deleted, but I'm about to go off on holiday and won't be able to. If a few people could stick the page on watch, and see what they can do about images or getting the user to respond, it would be much apreciated. Strictly speaking it doesn't need admins yet, but I foresee it in the near future for image deletion etc. [[User:Blood Red Sandman|<font color="red">'''Blood Red Sandman'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Blood Red Sandman|<font color="red">(Talk)</font>]]  [[Special:Contributions/Blood Red Sandman|<font color="red">(Contribs)</font>]]</sup> 15:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
== [[Shawn Hornbeck]] ==

It's back on the front page of [[CNN.com]] today, in the form of [http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/10/boys.found.ap/index.html an AP story] with this statement: "While it is The Associated Press' policy not to identify suspected victims of sexual abuse in most cases, the story of Shawn and Ben has been widely publicized and their names are now well-known."  The boy hasn't been interviewed since the initial time in the spotlight, but his stepfather is still giving updates to the media and he's obviously not trying to supress him from the public.  Interesting to note, considering the furor that we mustn't give him publicity and needed to let this slip away quietly. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 02:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

: Interesting indeed.  I wonder how we can reconcile the statement by a notable news agency with ours as an encyclopedia?  We are different organizations with different goals.  --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 05:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC) (I want to clarify that I don't really know the answer to this, and I'm posting it to, hopefully, prompt discussion; additionally, I'm not attempting to marginalize anything.  --06:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC))

::How about, "Wikipedia is not a newspaper?" [[User talk:Thatcher131|Thatcher131]] 11:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::: Yes, that was my original conclusion.  It is my opinion that we should not apply the same conclusions to our encyclopedia that the Associated Press has come to for their news reporting.  --[[User talk:Iamunknown|Iamunknown]] 19:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Night Gyr misrepresents the case.  The article was not a ''biography'', it was a distillation of news stories about an ''event''.  It is encyclopaedically covered in the article on the [[Shawn Hornbeck Foundation]].  Nothing to see here, move along please... <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 08:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::Ditto.  When the kid grows up and wins an olympic gold medal, starts an international business or cures cancer, we can write a ''biography''.  In the meantime, any article would merely be a true crime story masquerading as a biography.  Since Wikipedia is not [http://cgi.ebay.com/LOT-OF6-1950s-60S-TRUE-crime-MAGAZINES_W0QQitemZ320136032723QQcmdZViewItem Front Page Detective Magazine] and does not exist to provide salacious details about crimes against minors, let's stick to an article about the foundation, which can properly describe it's history as part of the article.  (I note in passing that the family has separated from the foundation, and I suspect that in a year or so it will have dissolved, but that's a battle for next year. [[User talk:Thatcher131|Thatcher131]] 11:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::How do I misrepresent it?  I didn't claim that the article was a biography.  The conflict I'm addressing is that people thought we ought not to mention them at all in any context.  People were [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_J._Devlin&diff=135012892&oldid=135012065 repeatedly]  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_J._Devlin&diff=134952425&oldid=134746978 excising] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_J._Devlin&diff=133941855&oldid=133870642 the] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_J._Devlin&diff=133823546&oldid=133780605 names] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_J._Devlin&diff=133769139&oldid=129351737 from] [[Michael J. Devlin|the article that covers the crime]]. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 14:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::: Wikipedia is not CNN and is not bound by decisions of CNN's editorial board.  Since these facts are so blindingly obvious, why has this discussion been brought here? --[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]] 14:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"People" in this instance was primarily me.  The issues involved here were surveyed in a pretty thorough deletion review in which I acknowledged that at least in Shawn's case (Ben's is a much closer call), Shawn and his family had affirmatively decided to become spokespersons for missing children, abating some of the privacy interest in his case.  I gave an enormous amount of time and thought to this situation, and Night Gyr, I think your presentation in this thread is a little bit simplistic.  In any event, I'm not clear what administrator action is being asked for at this time, unless your purpose is just to tease those (such as myself) who you believe may have temporarily erred on the side of respecting the privacy of minors who are kidnapped and sexually assaulted. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 14:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Where is the deletion review?  I tried to find it before commenting.  Off the top of my head it sounds like a routine debate about whether a fact is significant enough to add to an article, or whether the salaciousness of the fact (or in other debates, whatever the negative reasons are) outweighs its informative value.  I agree that we don't have to take the lead from newspapers, but because of the encyclopedic and ubiquitous nature of Wikipedia we should probably be more respectful of the privacy of non-famous people, not less.  The name itself is not notable and it is not going to link to other events or anything else.  It's a cul-de-sac of a fact, unrelated to any other facts.  I see no harm in waiting a few months or even a couple years, then deciding at that time whether the name really contributes to the article or it's just not worth saying.  It's not as if we're burying information or revising history.  The source material still has the name.  Just my $0.02.  [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 14:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::See [[Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 28]]. My comments are at the top and then again (much too long) in roughly the middle of the discussion. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 14:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:My point was to raise the profile of 'How do other organizations handle these situations?'  I'd think people would appreciate the example. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 14:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::How editors enforce BLP is totally arbitrary.  The arbcom ruling which said "obey the spirit of BLP" means you can do whatever you want without any kind of reprecussion, because the "spirit" is so ever undefinable.  Doing no evil means speedy deleting [[Al Gore III]], making a useless redirect from a kidnapping case - [[Tanya Kach]], whilst not making a useless redirect out of another kidnapping case - [[Michael J. Devlin]], and raping an article on a murderer because it was negative.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Neilson&oldid=135381160]  (At least the history was restored on that page, because it was a pretty asinine move) - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<font color="green">e</font>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 20:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== Query on warnings to anonymous editors ==

After their edits to an article were apparently reverted as vandalism [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DuPage_County%2C_Illinois&diff=143934243&oldid=143422179], an anonymous editor posted [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADuPage_County%2C_Illinois&diff=143942104&oldid=143420829] the following to the article's talk page:

{{cquote|This action here by Eleemosynary is indicative of the deep, profound vindictiveness he has. Elleemosynary reasons for his action are bullshit and with out merit. This editor is out of control, blinded with bitter hatred. It's this kind of person, that makes the world an evil and foul place. Wikipedia need to purge this jerk, who will stop at nothing to satisfy is lust for vindictive hate.}}

Viewing this as a personal attack against {{User|Eleemosynary}}, I immediately left a {{tl|uw-npa1}} warning on the IP's talk page.  The anonymous editor has since replied with an amusing, yet succinct "FUCK YOU ASSWIPES" [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A68.75.48.114&diff=143952456&oldid=143945912].  While certainly lacking [[WP:CIV|civility]], I do not believe it was a personal attack directed at a specific editor, and thus does not warrant a {{tl|uw-npa2}} warning.  Is my understanding correct, or should I have issued the user another warning?  Thanks, [[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 18:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:I think you could reasonably have left an npa2, though my personal policy when it's just a rant on their own talk page is to revert and ignore.--<span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size:11pt">[[User:Kubigula|Kubigula]] ''([[User talk:Kubigula|talk]])''</span> 19:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:: I think you could have as well as I don't want to draw too sharp a line between the community and individual editors. However, we don't want to "feed the trolls" either. [[User:JodyB|<font color="#FFFFFF" face="Arial Bold"><span style="background-color: #0000FF">'''Jody'''</span><span style="background-color:#30D5C8">'''B'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:JodyB|'' talk'']]</sub></font> 19:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== Anon talk page abuse ==

{{resolved|talk page semi protected}}
Could someone take a look at {{ipuser|141.153.159.176}} and their [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:141.153.159.176&action=history talk page history]? I left a welcome message on this user's IP and that resulted in a series of personal attacks and warning templates subst'd onto their talk page. I'm thinking another warning is only going to instigate another outburst, which is nice if I want ammunition to have this IP blocked. However, what would really be nice is a satisfactory end to the personal attacks. [[User:BigNate37|'''<span style="color:#E33">Big<span style="color:#444">Nate</span>37</span>''']]<sub>[[User talk:BigNate37|(T)]]</sub> 21:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:I protected his talk page for 2 days, don't hesitate to block if his rants becomes disruptive. -- [[User:Lucasbfr|lucasbfr]] [[User talk:Lucasbfr|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]] 21:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[User talk:Ethanhawke]] ==

Besides the fact that the User ID is that of a living celebrity, What the heck is going on at [[User talk:Ethanhawke]]? [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]]
:The account was engaged in spamming, and I'm guessing attempted spamming, I don't know why it looks like monitoring it has become active again, though, since the account was blocking indefinitely in March. I'm not too worried, though. [[User:Makemi|Mak]] [[User talk:Makemi|<span style="color:green;">(talk)</span>]] 23:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::Why isn't the talk page just blanked with a block notice?  Sure beats loads of pointless links, is this what usually happens with blocked spam accounts? - [[User:Hahnchen|hahnch]][[User:Hahnchen/E|<font color="green">e</font>]][[User:Hahnchen|n]] 00:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:::I deleted both the user page and the talk page and they are now cascade-protected. -- [[User:John Reaves|John Reaves]] [[User talk:John Reaves|(talk)]] 02:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
== Block review for Ron liebman ==

{{user|Ron liebman}} has been sitting in [[:Category:Requests for unblock]] for about two days, now; thought I might bring this one here, for review, to get a larger discussion going. Thoughts? &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 07:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:I've stated my opinion on his talk page.  I don't even see a willingness to adhere to any of Wikipedia's basic editing principles, let alone an admission or explanation for all of the ''checkuser-confirmed'' sock abuse.  Until I see a glimpse of either, I can't recommend unblocking.  He caused ''months'' of disruption to numerous editors so this case should not be taken lightly.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 11:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::I already commented at [[User talk:Ron liebman]], to say that I didn't think he'd given a convincing explanation of his involvement in all the sock puppetry. See, for example, [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Ron liebman]]. That's a ''lot'' of socks. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 14:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Not just a lot of socks but a lot of [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Ron liebman|''checkuser-confirmed'' socks]].  And yet he continues to deny the sock accusation.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 14:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Or claim it's others making the edits at the same place without his knowledge. Self-guided [[meatpuppets]], apparently. Editting precisely the same way, with the same questionable grammar and snide remarks. Extraordinarily unlikely, imho. -[[User:Ebyabe|Ebyabe]] 15:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::For what it's worth, there's a long-term abuse case open (with many more accounts... 39 total named accounts, plus a bunch of IPs) - [[Wikipedia:Long term abuse#Baseball Vandal aka Ron liebman]] 
:::::I asked Ron to contact unblock-en-l to start an ID check; I think that's a reasonable non-negotiable step at this point (though OTRS staff could do it too).  [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] 19:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Update: there are apparent socks operating even today.  See {{vandal|Ken raffensberger}} and {{vandal|Steve grinberg}}.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 20:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I've filed a new (currently pending) RFCU request on these (and the other socks that came by after the last CU was run).  Either this is an abuser with chutzpah, or Ron really is being impersonated.  Either way, hopefully we can find out for sure.  [[:Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Ron liebman]] [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] 21:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::I tried to caution him about that.  If he really is being followed around on NY library computers being impersonated almost perfectly, he may have bigger worries than whether he can edit Wikipedia.  That's more than a little creepy.  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 21:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::This looks like a fairly open and shut case to me. Who the heck is going to go to the effort of stalking someone around and ''editing Wikipedia'' to impersonate them (as if they would somehow know their user account and who to link it with). Seriously. With the same editing pattern, etc., this is beyond unlikely. If I were an admin, I would deny the request right now. [[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] 18:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Just on a semi-related, yet unrelated note, {{user|Ron liebman}} is not the only one who has been waiting patiently at [[:Category:Requests for unblock]]. Seems [[User:Yamla|Yamla]] is on a wikibreak, and since he handles most of these, nothing is getting done...bored admins are welcome to jump in. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#0000cd">auburn</font><font color="#EF6521">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 16:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== captcha issues ==

{{resolved}}
I am using a screen reader, and want to log into my account (fastfinge).  I lost the password to it, and had one emailed to me.  But now I need to enter a captcha to log in.  How can this be resolved?  [[User:206.126.88.124|206.126.88.124]]
:How is this an admin issue?  You might want to post this at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)]]--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 16:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:Because this is the page the info link next to the captcha edit box gives to contact an admin about the issue.  Perhaps that link should be changed if this is the wrong place?  [[User:206.126.88.124|206.126.88.124]]
::I'm afraid there is little an admin can do about this so I'm not sure why it is linked here. I can't think who could help with this. [[User:GDonato|GDonato]] ('''[[User talk:GDonato|talk]]''') 16:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:Okay, folks; the page on captchas needs to be expanded.  First, this seems to be the wrong place to ask for help.  Second, it should say that if you wait about 15 minutes after entering an incorrect password, you can try again without entering a captcha.  I have access to my account once more; how do we close this issue?  [[User:Fastfinge|Fastfinge]]
::Like this. By the way... is there a help page on captchas in relation to Wikipedia (you can respond on my [[User talk:Isotope23|talk page]] if you'd like)?--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 16:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::I've started a discussion about where we should guide people at [[MediaWiki talk:Captchahelp-text]]. [[User:GDonato|GDonato]] ('''[[User talk:GDonato|talk]]''') 17:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Thanks, I was just getting to that!--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 17:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I made a change that should address the problem. [[User talk:Thatcher131|Thatcher131]] 18:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::That's a good change, but as Fastfinge's experience makes clear, there's a serious accessibility issue here.  [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 12:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

== Editors of magic ? ==

*{{vandal|Editerofmagic}}
*{{vandal|Edito*Magica}}

Can any one here figure out what is going on with these two accounts? I noticed them after seeing a confusing post at [[Wikipedia talk:Television episodes]] and found a mess... --[[User:Jack Merridew|Jack Merridew]] 09:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:My suspicion is that they are sockpuppets of each other, and that they are attacking each other in order to make fools of the rest of us.  I'm going to file a Code G checkuser to see if that's the case.  The ''older'' of these two accounts made its first edit on July 6, and they have been editing each other's userpages and talk pages.  Either that, or the newer account is trying to impersonate the older one, and in that case should be blocked and asked to change his username. [[User:Shalom|Shalom]] <sup>[[User talk:Shalom|Hello]]</sup> 16:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
== [[User:TREYWiki]] ==

{{userlinks|TREYWiki}} was blocked "based on a diff which has now been oversighted, in which you purported to state the first name and geographical location of another editor."  I can find no diff, but even so, an indefinite block, which was given, is a tad excessive.  12 or 24, yes, but indefinite, no.  I request that admins take a look at this and would kindly request that Trey's block be overturned outright or knocked down to 12 to 24 hours with an apology to the editor whose name and "geographical location" was given and let all be forgiven.

Trey is a very hard-working editor who keeps his nose clean and has a track record to back it up.  He was only blocked one other time for something '''I''' got him in the middle of and we both apologized to the editor after our blocks expired....which is what I think should happen here.

Again, I request an admins attention, Trey's block reduced to 12 or 24 hours or overturned outright and the request of an apology to be issued to the editor whose name and "geographical location" was given.

Full disclosure, I am a friend of Trey's (online) but I was ''not'' asked by him to post this.  Thank you for your attention. - [[User:Neutralhomer|<font color="#0000C8">NeutralHomer</font>]] <span style="font-size: 0.8em;"><sup>[[User Talk:Neutralhomer|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Neutralhomer|C]]</sup></span> 20:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:Just a neutral comment, but oversighting means no one else but oversights can see the diff. <font face="comic sans ms">[[User:Kwsn|<span style="background: #23238E; color: #FFFF00;">'''Kwsn'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Kwsn|<span style="background: #23238E; color: #FFFF00; ">(Ni!)</span>]]</sup></font> 21:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::What I was trying to say is this diff was not included in the block summary...and more so, indefinite is still too harsh for what is claimed. - [[User:Neutralhomer|<font color="#0000C8">NeutralHomer</font>]] <span style="font-size: 0.8em;"><sup>[[User Talk:Neutralhomer|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Neutralhomer|C]]</sup></span> 21:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:No. No unblock. Outing someone is the worst type of misdeed. I worked with Trey a lot as well, and ever since the outrage with [[User:H|H]], I believe anyone who outs someone's real-life identity should be indefblocked and stay that way. [[User:Blueboy96|Blueboy]][[User talk:Blueboy96|96]] 21:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:(ec) Trey could apologize and say he won't do it again, any time he wants to.  I don't see that he's made any attempt to do so.  Hard-working or not, I see no reason to even consider lifting the block until he ''at least'' does that.  [[User:Friday|Friday]] [[User talk:Friday|(talk)]] 21:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

::'''Note''': see also [[User_talk:Nick#User:TREYWiki_Block]], the blocking admin's talk page. Apparently this is going through ArbCom via email. Just sit tight. [[User:Flyguy649|Flyguy649]] [[User talk:Flyguy649|<sup>talk</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Flyguy649|<sub>contribs</sub>]] 21:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::"I've only submitted a summary of the situation to ArbCom via e-mail, there's no case open as yet, and indeed, there may not even be a case."  It has only bee submitted via email, that is why I brought it to AN's attention.  I am unfamiliar with the situation, just Trey...nor am I familiar with [[User:H]].  But, don't some of us kinda tell where we live on our userpages?  In some cases, our real names.  I will wait for ArbCom, but I think this block should be reduced considerably. - [[User:Neutralhomer|<font color="#0000C8">NeutralHomer</font>]] <span style="font-size: 0.8em;"><sup>[[User Talk:Neutralhomer|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Neutralhomer|C]]</sup></span> 21:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Some do. But that should be ''our decision'', not that of someone who doesn't like us. If I deal with trolls a lot, I do ''not'' want them being able to search for an identity I never made public and then harass me in real life. That will seriously impact my real life, in a way I can only partially deal with by ceasing activity on Wikipedia. Driving people away and causing real life problems is TOTALLY unacceptable. -21:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Yes, but it should NOT be an indefinite block offense, especially for a user who has cause no trouble in the past, with the exception of the problem I got Trey caught up in, which should not be held against him.
:::For a user with such a clean track record, he should be only blocked for 12 to 24 with the stipulation that he apologize after the block expires and does not do it again or the punishment will be reinstated.  I think that is reasonable. - [[User:Neutralhomer|<font color="#0000C8">NeutralHomer</font>]] <span style="font-size: 0.8em;"><sup>[[User Talk:Neutralhomer|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Neutralhomer|C]]</sup></span> 21:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::I have received e-mails from both the blocking administrator and the blocked user and forwarded them to the Arbitration Committee mailing list. Inasmuch as the arbitrators have Oversight access and can see blocked diffs, it struck several administrators that they might be the best people to review the unblock request at this time. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 21:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::An update, Trey has apologized to the editor in question (without naming names).  I think the apology is enough to lift this block. - [[User:Neutralhomer|<font color="#0000C8">NeutralHomer</font>]] <span style="font-size: 0.8em;"><sup>[[User Talk:Neutralhomer|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Neutralhomer|C]]</sup></span> 00:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::It was kind of a backhanded apology. He was apologizing that the John Doe wanted anonymity moreso than apologizing for his actions. --[[User:Hemlock Martinis|Hemlock Martinis]] 01:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::It kinda upsets me that I am the only one willing to assume good faith and give Trey another chance.  He has apologized (which if you add a comma to one part, it sounds better) and has no history of problems, I think we should give him a second change and assume good faith here. - [[User:Neutralhomer|<font color="#0000C8">NeutralHomer</font>]] <span style="font-size: 0.8em;"><sup>[[User Talk:Neutralhomer|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Neutralhomer|C]]</sup></span> 01:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Once ArbCom sorts it out, then we will see what action is needed. Until then, it is useless to waste oxygen on this topic. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 01:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::ArbCom hasn't even taken up the case and what if they don't?  We continue to show bad faith? :S - [[User:Neutralhomer|<font color="#0000C8">NeutralHomer</font>]] <span style="font-size: 0.8em;"><sup>[[User Talk:Neutralhomer|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Neutralhomer|C]]</sup></span> 01:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::If ArbCom doesn't take up the case, we will cross that bridge if and when we come to it. I also disagree about showing bad faith, I believe, that by continuing to block Trey, we are taking an appropriate precaution at this time. [[User:Nick|Nick]] 01:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::This is now moot point.  Trey has left Wikipedia.  You all should be ashamed, you tell everyone to assume good faith, you have done the opposite.  Trey apologized, you continued to assume bad faith.  Trey was an editor who was not a trouble maker, but you all treated him like one.  Pathetic. - [[User:Neutralhomer|<font color="#0000C8">NeutralHomer</font>]] <span style="font-size: 0.8em;"><sup>[[User Talk:Neutralhomer|T]]:[[Special:Contributions/Neutralhomer|C]]</sup></span> 03:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Will you stop pouting in our faces? What makes you think that you are the only one assuming good faith here? You think I wanted him to go? I did not, but I did not say anything because this matter was out of our hands, and therefore of no use. —'''[[User:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0; font-family:cursive;">Kurykh</span>]]''' 03:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Yes, it is important to assume good faith, but what good faith explanation is there for posting personal information? --[[User:Thebainer|bainer]]&nbsp;([[User_talk:Thebainer|talk]]) 06:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::Agree with Bainer.  Admittedly, it's unfortunate that Trey had to be made an example, but we simply can't tolerate outing people's personal information here.  We learned a hard lesson from what happened to H--when someone's privacy is involved, drop the hammer and drop it fast. [[User:Blueboy96|Blueboy]][[User talk:Blueboy96|96]] 20:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::For my part, this is one of the least forgivable things one can do to Wikipedia. Outing users who have made efforts to remain private compromises everything we're about, and 10,000 productive article edits don't change that. ([[User:ESkog|ESkog]])<sup>([[User talk:ESkog|Talk]])</sup> 22:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

== DeletedContributions ==

Just a heads up that the DeletedContributions extension is now live here. Administrators can access it at [[Special:DeletedContributions]]. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 21:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:''Nice''. [[User:Prodego|<span style="color:darkgreen;">''Prodego''</span>]] [[User talk:Prodego|<sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk</sup>]] 22:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::Cool.  Is this going to be integrated into the UI?  To show, say, deleted contributions above or below normal contributions?  Or perhaps a link from the toolbox?  ;) --[[User:Stephen|<b>Steve</b> <sub> (Stephen) </sub>]][[User talk:Stephen|<sup> talk </sup>]] 22:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Yes, there will be a link from Special:Contributions; no plans currently on incorporating deletedcontribs in with regular contribs though. Expect the link to be up within a week on Wikipedia. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 00:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Really nice! An edit counter at the top of the user's contribs, or even the contribs showing up would be even greater, but that's very nice. -- [[User:Lucasbfr|lucasbfr]] [[User talk:Lucasbfr|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]] 23:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Absolutely excellent - thank you devs! [[User:Kuru|<span style="color:#cd853f;">'''Kuru'''</span>]] [[User talk:Kuru|<sup style="color:#f5deb3;">''talk''</sup>]] 23:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::::I can't use it but this'll help with things like renamings and vandals. Thanks! [[User:R|'''R''']] <sup>[[User_talk:R|Parlate]]</sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/R|Contribs]]<sub>[[Special:Emailuser/R|@]]</sub> (Let's Go Yankees!)</small> 00:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::: Re: the edit counter thingie: this is ''really'' easy to do, as there is already a field in the [[:mw:user table|user table]] that store's a user's editcount (approximate, but good enough). The devs won't do it unless there's community support for it, due to editcountitis and stuff like that. Raise it up on [[WP:VPT]] or another Pump to get approval for that addition. [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 23:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 13:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
*I've updated {{t1|vandal}} and {{t1|IPvandal}} to include a hot link to this, to make research before blocking easier on [[WP:AIV]]. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] [[User_talk:Xaosflux|<sup style="color:#00FF00;">Talk</sup>]] 03:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
**Awesome! [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 03:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
**Wow! Just - wow. Excellent work. Looking forward to <s>pwning even more people</s> using it wisely. ~ [[User talk:Riana|Riana <span style="color:green;">⁂</span>]] 03:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
***Useful for all kinds of things.  Next question: would deleted diffs be possible?  [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 03:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Hkelkar 2]] ==

This arbitration case has closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The parties to the case are strongly encouraged to enter into mediation arrangements regarding any disputes over article content that may still be outstanding. All parties are reminded in the strongest possible terms that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a forum for conspiracy, personal attacks, nor the continuation of ethnic disputes by other means. "Parties who continue such behaviour, and parties who consider it their moral duty to call out such behaviour, will be hit on the head with sticks until the situation improves."

{{user|Rama's Arrow}} is desysopped, but is welcome to apply for reinstatement at RfA at any time. As always, administrators should not use their administrative powers in conflicts or disagreements they are involved in. Administrators who are parties to this case are reminded that they should find an uninvolved admin to determine if blocks or other actions against any other parties to the case are appropriate, and should under no circumstances take such actions themselves. Any party that violates the ban on admin actions imposed in this case will be summarily desysopped once the violation is brought to the attention of the Arbitration Committee.

This notice is given by a clerk on behalf of the Arbitration Committee. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 15:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Have the arbitrators issued an implementation notice about what kinds of sticks to use, and how hard to hit people's heads with them? Is it the kind of hitting that typically necessitates 24 or 48 hours off editing afterwards, on doctor's orders? ;-) [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 16:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:I think we're allowed to hit pretty hard and fast. The "summary desysopping" bit counts as a stick, of course. A couple of arbitrators commented that it was with difficulty that they'd restrained themselves from banning everyone in sight for wasting so much time: personally, I would have banned everyone in sight :) Sticks may be applied fairly liberally, right? Certainly, several of the parties appear to need wood applied to [[head|wood]]. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[User talk:Moreschi|Talk]]</sup> 16:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Much as I thank ArbCom for handling this difficult case, I note that other than the guidance to use sticks the decision gives no guidance to admins on how we are supposed to enforced this ruling. In particular how is someone to apply sanctions to an editor who "continues in such behaviour" without falling into the category of those "who consider it their moral duty to call out such behaviour"? <span style="font-family: Verdana">[[User:WJBscribe|'''WjB''']][[User talk:WJBscribe|scribe]]</span> 16:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:I took that to mean that the sticks ought to be applied by outsiders. That's a good idea in theory, but it's going to be difficult to implement, because outsiders are unlikely to notice disruptive behaviour, and insiders, as you say, are going to risk contact with the stick themselves for notifying the outsiders... [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 16:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::Yes, our goal is to stop the stalking of edits and admin action between the parties (especially admins) in this case. If they continue the disruptive behavior towards each other it will be obvious and any uninvolved admin should bring it to the attention of ArbCom so the admin can be desyopped. [[User:FloNight|FloNight]] 18:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

===Request clarification===
I don't get it. Reading the conclusions, this says that (1) there's no real evidence, (2) Rama blocked some people, and therefore (3) Rama is desysopped. It seems to me that (3) [[does not follow]], as none of the findings of fact gives a credible rationale for the deopping. Now '''I'm not saying this is wrong''' or disagreeing or anything, but reading the outcome of the case it is ''entirely unclear'' why the outcome is like that. <!-- I will undoubtedly get flamed for asking this, but --> I'd like to ask the ArbCom to clarify their findings. 

Furthermore, (4) henceforth, any admin using their power when involved in a conflict will be summarily deopped. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, but it would appear to be a new policy, since it does not specify any case or limit or whatnot, and is worded to apply all over the Wiki. [[User_talk:Radiant!|<b><span style="color:#0000DD;">&gt;<span style="color:#0066FF;">R<span style="color:#0099FF;">a<span style="color:#00CCFF;">d<span style="color:#00EEFF;">i</span>a</span>n</span>t</span>&lt;</span></b>]] 09:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:Having lived with the case for the past 2-1/2 months while clerking it, I think that what may appear as gaps in the reasoning of the decision are pretty much a by-product of the drafting-by-committee process that is used. If one takes a look at the /proposed decision page, one will find a detailed rationale written up by one arbitrator in support of desysopping. The other arbs voted against the proposed findings of fact but in favor of the desysopping, but did not propose substitute wording, probably because in the meantime Rama's Arrow had desysopped voluntarily and has (hopefully temporarily) left the project, making it unnecessary to spend time honing precise words of criticism. I don't speak for the arbitrators on this, but it seems pretty clear from talkpage discussion by the arbitrators that a major factor considered was Rama's Arrow's behavior during the arbitration case itself.
:It is also pretty clear that the remedy and enforcement regarding administrators, particularly the comment about summary desysopping, relate to the parties to this case (though the general principle of not taking admin action in a dispute one is personally involved with applies more generally, of course). If there is a genuine and material uncertainty as to the meaning of the decision, clarification can be requested at [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration]]&mdash;but please, given the turmoil that this case has caused already, this should be done only if there is a very substantial issue to be raised, and not simply to raise semantic concerns about the wording, even if meritorious. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] 12:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Editors interested in this ruling may be interested in [[User:Bakasuprman]]'s post at [[User talk:Dbachmann]], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dbachmann&diff=144283711&oldid=144215632 here]. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 02:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

== Downstream copyright violation ==

How can I investigate and correct (if necessary) a downstream use copyright violation. The situation is that [http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=c7e6494a-0e6c-46b4-9982-60b6b4bf20c1&ParentID=f702d4d5-e16e-4a07-bd0a-5bebf5c9b825&MatchID1=4488&TeamID1=8&TeamID2=10&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1120&PrimaryID=4488&Headline=The+new+Seven+Wonders+of+the+World this article] uses text taken directly from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christ_the_Redeemer_%28statue%29&direction=next&oldid=143196107 this version] of [[Christ the Redeemer (statue)]]. [[User_talk:Sanchom|Sancho]] 22:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:Is it just that two sentances, or are the descriptions for the other "wonders" taken from here too? /[[User:Wangi|wangi]] 22:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::Machu Picchu's lifted also. I didn't bother checking the rest. [[User:Bladestorm|Bladestorm]] 22:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
::I checked Taj Mahal and Great Wall of China... those are lifted also. [[User_talk:Sanchom|Sancho]] 22:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
See [[WP:MF]] for information on sites that copy content. This one case may be too minor to be worth any effort. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 22:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:::This happens all the time.  People plagiarize from Wikipedia or vice-versa.  Sometimes it takes a little sleuthing to see who really copied from whom.  Sometimes the same person wrote both, or both plagiarized from a common third source.  If you are sure that the newspaper is just cribbing parts of Wikipedia articles without attribution (and claiming they have the copyright to the material), it still doesn't mean the site itself is trying to get away with it.  Sometimes it's just one reporter who would rather copy stuff than write their  own copy.  In that case the editor in chief would probably like to know one of their reporters isn't writing their own material, so if you write an email directly to them on your own behalf you'll get action a lot faster than a formal Wikipedia violation notice.  Of course if they're doing this on purpose as an organization they'll probably tell you to get lost no matter what you do.  [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 04:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Yeah, it's a pretty respectable news organization I think (a main newspaper in India), so it's more likely that just a single editor yanked the material and claimed it was their own. I did end up sending an e-mail to the editor. I'll keep track of developments at [[Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks/Ghi#Hindustan_Times]]. [[User_talk:Sanchom|Sancho]] 05:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Also, I checked the timestamps against the reported time of first publishing of the article and it does look like the material was first on Wikipedia, then in the news article. [[User_talk:Sanchom|Sancho]] 05:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Curious to see how it turns out.  The timestamps aren't conclusive, though.  Sometimes a newspaper reprints an article or cannibalizes an old article when writing a new one, so the Wikipedia entry could be from the old article.  And sometimes you find something really funny, like turning out that the newspaper reporter themself is the WIkipedian who wrote the language into the article.  In that case you would scratch your head and have to think through who owns the copyright and exactly what if anything they did wrong.  [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 06:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Strange how these things happen. I've seen articles on certain UK government websites that were copied from their Wikipedia articles and placed their by their webmasters (I know because I personally know the editor and he is of good standing). Anyway they've been copied onto the UK government websites and placed under crown copyright with no attribution. But hey I don't think we want to go taking on the crown. [[User:Ben W Bell|<font color="Blue">'''Ben W Bell'''</font>]] [[User talk:Ben W Bell|''<font color="Blue">talk</font>'']] 14:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::A wikipedia article I contributed extensively to has been plagiarized by a newspaper writer at least once that I'm aware of; whole sentences I wrote were cut and pasted with minimal (and sometimes no) attempt at rewording and no attribution.  I didn't take it as a big deal (it's GFDL so it's not like I felt I "owned" it, even if technically they should have attributed 'pedia for it); if anyone tried to flag the article as a copyvio, the timestamps on the article vs the newspaper copy are pretty clear.  I just saw it as an indication that I always have the option of a second career as a local newpaper writer if what I do now doesn't pan out.--[[User:Isotope23|Isotope23]] 16:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Actually, this sort of thing is a really big deal. We on Wikipedia might be used to the concept of GFDL, but media outlets take any sort of plagiarism extremely seriously (usually, if someone is willing to copy from WP without attribution, then they're doing it from other sources too). People have lost their jobs for copying from WP before. It's extremely unkosher to go copy text from WP without attribution and place it anywhere. The fact that the crown did it is even worse. But for newspapers, I would heavily suggest popping a notice to the editor. [[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] 17:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::I was quite amused to see several sentences I wrote about the history of the UK railways in the [[Privatisation of British Rail]] article reappear in a massive report by the Railway Pensions Commission this past month. My phrasing isn't actually still in our article, but I recognised it on sight and looked it up in the old versions! -- [[User:Arwel_Parry|Arwel]] ([[User talk:Arwel_Parry|talk]]) 17:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::The UK's [[Daily Mail]] got picked up for this kind of thing, lifting content from website [[TV Cream]], a couple of times in 2002, as did its freesheet sister paper [[Metro (Associated Metro Limited)|Metro]] in 2003.  (See relevant [[NTK]]s [http://www.ntk.net/2002/11/01/ here] and [http://www.ntk.net/2003/05/09/ here], item 2 of "Hard News" in each case).  Journos often get used to lifting a lot of copy from press releases (a good press release should make this as easy as possible), and/or paraphrasing competitors' scoops.  Some it seems may sometimes mistreat the web as an extension of this.  Properly the sources should be acknowledged, of course, but they often aren't.  WP's headline emphasis  on "free content, freely reusable"  may (if we [[WP:AGF|AGF]]) sometimes eclipse that, per GFDL, WP as a source still needs to be cited.  My impression is that the U.S. tends to be more prissy about this kind of thing, and generally more apt to raise the sanctity of "Journalism" onto a pedestal than the rest of the world, rather than seeing journalism as a rough-and-tumble business of getting copy out by deadline -- possibly because by world standards most U.S. newspaper markets are unusually uncompetitive. [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] 19:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

::That's copyleft for ya. This becomes an issue at Wikipedia when zealous but insufficiently clued editors label Wikipedia texts as copyright violations, because they've seen mirrored texts: [[Talk:Arch of Titus]] and [[Talk:Église de la Madeleine]] record confrontations, with some self-justification on the one hand and some understandably cross remarks from contributors of content on the other. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 19:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

== User JzG Incivility ==

Two options guys. [[WP:RFC|A request for comments]] or shutting the hell up. Endless complaining on endless noticeboard, talk pages, deletion review, MfD and christ knows elsewhere will not be tolerated. [[User:Nick|Nick]] 19:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

David In DC was blocked for an hour for disruption by listing this here. He's clearly well aware of the situation in order to be quoting text so he knows that's the same ultimatum other users involved have received. [[User:Nick|Nick]] 19:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

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:''The following discussion is archived. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.'' {{#if:{{{1|}}}|''A summary of the conclusions reached follows.''
::{{{1}}}
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Please review my User Talk Page [[User:David in DC|David in DC]] 19:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:I don't see a single comment there by JzG...[[User talk:David in DC|?]]--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 19:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:: Here's one: "Yup, I am an arrogant, high-handed condescending bastard - which is bad, but not half as bad as being the kind of sad, lifeless bastard who carries on whining about trivial grudges for as long as these two pitiful examples have. Guy (Help!) 18:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)" [[User:David in DC|David in DC]] 19:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:: Here's another: "ATren, you have just made a tit of yourself. Perhaps an admin would care to check out Special:DeletedContributions/JoeMaculy and tell ATren why I used that block summary with that capitalisation. Guy (Help!) 22:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)" [[User:David in DC|David in DC]] 19:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Yep, agreed. Is this related to the fellow who was wasting our time on ANI earlier, the Anal stretching/userpage lark? Hasn't he fucked off and left Guy alone yet? If not, could he? Please? [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[User talk:Moreschi|Talk]]</sup> 19:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::::It would seem that this gripe-fest has spread to every corner of Wikipedia ''except'' those suggested by [[WP:DR|the dispute resolution policy]]. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]''' <sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:: And here's one a target of his venom preserved on my user page before JzG deleted it from his own: "Perhaps I was a little too subtle above. The message I was trying to convey is this: edit some articles or shut the fuck up you whining twat. Guy (Help!) 18:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)" [[User:David in DC|David in DC]] 19:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Accurate description. Articles other than Anal stretching, I assume he meant. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[User talk:Moreschi|Talk]]</sup> 19:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:: Also worth reviewing are the comments of his targets.  Wikipedia loses valuable editors when this venom is coddled. [[User:David in DC|David in DC]] 19:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::Where's the valuable editors? All I see is one editor forum shopping for someone to listen to him, over a seven month old grudge. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 19:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I post all of this here because I put up the helpme template and was directed here. [[User:David in DC|David in DC]] 19:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, file an Rfc then...but remember...all editors who sign on an Rfc are fair game to have their contributions heavily scrutinized and discussed. I think the best thing to do is to leave the guy alone...he's obviously debating whether he even wants to continue here, so why beat on him when he's down?--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 19:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive.  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.''<!-- from Template:discussion bottom --></div>

== Stale AFD at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maple Lane Elementary School]] ==

{{resolved|article relisted}}
[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maple Lane Elementary School]] has been around since mid-June, with two delete opinions, but the AFD has never been closed.  Does anyone want to do the honors of closing it?  --[[User:Elkman|Elkman]] <sup>[[User talk:Elkman|(Elkspeak)]]</sup> 23:18, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:I'm relisting the article since, for some reason, the initial AfD header was removed right away from the article. Relisting will allow article editors a chance to comment. &mdash; [[User:Scientizzle|Scien]]''[[User talk:Scientizzle|tizzle]]'' 23:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
== [[User:DG]] ==

[[User:DG]] has been indef blocked a few minutes ago after he started [[Special:Contributions/DG|vandalizing]]. This editor left last August and just went back today. I am a bit uneasy about [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_bureaucratship/Andrevan3&diff=prev&oldid=143457855 his support vote] on an RfB just before the vandalism. What should we do? Strike the comment? -- [[User:Lucasbfr|lucasbfr]] [[User talk:Lucasbfr|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]] 09:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:And strange that he moved the user page of the preceding voter on that RfB.  And I blocked him --[[User:Stephen|<b>Steve</b> <sub> (Stephen) </sub>]][[User talk:Stephen|<sup> talk </sup>]] 09:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
::I left a note but didn't strike it; it's bureaucrat discretion. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 20:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
:This user has now been unblocked by Andrevan: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:DG]. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 00:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the subject of this speculation and would like to clear everything up. First off, my account is not compromised. I am me, whatever that means. I'm a little bit disturbed at the fact that someone decided that the most appropriate thing to do was actually INDEFINITELY BLOCK ME FROM WIKIPEDIA! The reason given "possibly compromised" is pretty bogus too. Is there a trend of using the reason of "possibly compromised account" as a coverup bogus reason to block users? Not being paranoid, just wondering. Especially given that Stephen over there suggested that I was blocked "until it could be proven otherwise." So now everyone has to PROVE their account couldn't be "compromised" (however you define that)  and it is otherwise assumed that they are to be blocked?

(By the way, seeing as my account is not an admin, how exactly does its compromisal pose such a dire threat to wikipedia that I and any IP I may use must be permanently and indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia? The whole compromise thing REALLY sounds like a lame excuse. Arr! Conspiracy, etc, etc.)

Okay, anyway. End-of-paranoid-crazy-rant. In all seriousness, Stephen: I'm sure it was an honest mistake, just don't do it again to other people. Pretty silly thing to do if you ask me.

Anyway, the move of User:Silence was done in something like good faith. I have reason to believe that User:Silence would have appreciated the humour behind that move. 

Okay, so I vandalized [[Otherkin]] in a minor way. Mea culpa. That was unjustifiable. I didn't know we permanently blocked people from Wikipedia for that now though. 

If you wish to disenfranchise me and remove my vote at RfB, go ahead. I'd rather you didn't, but I guess that is the prerogative of those mighty bureaucrats who grok the zenlike nature of consensus.

By the way, I haven't had edits for months because I've been changing computers and consequently my edits for the last few months have all been through anonymous IPs. I finally logged in again because User:Silence told me that Andre was on RfB. Seeing as I votes for him last time he was on RfB, I was delighted to encore. I hardly thought it would cost me my user account under rather ridiculous pretenses.

Anyway.

PS: The above few paragraphs may contain plenty of sarcasm and thinly veiled anger, etc. I hope you won't take it too personally. In all seriousness, like I said, I'm sure it's just an honest mistake.

Kind of stupid mistake though. Can you justify yourself? 

[[User:DG|D.]] [[User_talk:DG|G.]] 05:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:It's protective measure to preserve the integrity of a user's account, and their contributions.  When someone vanishes for months, after being a productive editor, then returns making vandalistic edits, then most people think "compromised account", and an admin will protect it to ensure that that person's reputation is not destroyed.  --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 05:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::Exactly, indefinite does not mean infinite. We had some problems with users that got their accounts compromised, and that's what came in mind first when we saw your contributions. You could have requested an unblock, the explanation you provided above would probably have been enough :). Since that got cleared up, of course your account shall remain unblocked. Just keep in mind the usual ''laius'' about vandalism... -- [[User:Lucasbfr|lucasbfr]] [[User talk:Lucasbfr|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]] 09:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::DG, try looking right there on the login screen: "If your account is compromised, it may be permanently blocked unless you can prove you are its rightful owner".  You don't login for months and then make vandal edits; that points to a compromised account as we've had many examples over the last months.  So, thanks, I can justify my actions. The only stupidity was yours. --[[User:Stephen|<b>Steve</b> <sub> (Stephen) </sub>]][[User talk:Stephen|<sup> talk </sup>]] 12:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)



I am sorry. I think I may have made a complete fool of myself, and you are indeed right when you say that the only stupidity was mine. 

The intention of the block clearly was to prevent someone else from ruining my reputation. What it was unable to do was prevent me from ruining my own reputation. I am really quite embarassed at how badly I've blown it here. You were just trying to do your job. Thank you, and sorry. [[User:DG|D.]] [[User_talk:DG|G.]] 00:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I would just like to say that if I could retract the above crazy rant I made, I would. [[User:DG|D.]] [[User_talk:DG|G.]] 01:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

:Update: {{ipuser|24.225.244.250}} has requested a new account at [[Wikipedia:Request an account#VfD]].  From [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=144081541 this edit], 24.225.244.250 and DG are apparently the same person.  DG posted a message at [[User:DG]] saying he was going on a long wikivacation and then shows up at [[WP:ACC]] the same day requesting a new ID.  This seems like a pretty clear case of [[WP:SOCK#Avoiding scrutiny from other editors|avoiding scrutiny from other editors]].  —[[User:wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:wknight94|talk]]) 11:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

== Is there a reason that you unblocked AOL Europe? ==

Please show me the links to the decisions concerning blocking and unblocking AOL Europe. Thank you [[User:195.93.60.102|195.93.60.102]] 20:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:{{rangevandal|195.93.0.0/17}} was unblocked on 8 July by [[User:Sarah|Sarah]], who cites an [[WP:OTRS|OTRS]] ticket; we'd probably have to ask her or another OTRS volunteer for details, beyond that. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 22:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::Er, okay. Sorry about that guys, obviously it was a mistake. I'll reblock if it hasn't already been reblocked. I was trying to help riana clear a block that came from an OTRS unblock request. Sorry. '''[[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]]''' 08:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
::Woah, sorry about the trouble. And it didn't even help the OTRS customer out. Sorry for getting Sarah in strife :| ~ [[User talk:Riana|Riana <span style="color:green;">⁂</span>]] 10:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

== User:R.J-1337 ==

{{user|R.J-1337}} has vandalized my user page, and I don't think this will be the last time he will be doing such a thing. I know him from outside of Wikipedia from a wrestling based chatroom I used to host. It was well known there that I disliked R.J-1337 and he came to Wikipedia for one reason, not to become an editor, but for his own personal agenda. He has convinced others to create userpages, and make them similar to wrestler articles so they could have "profiles" on wikipedia to work in conjuction with the chatroom (my old chatroom) which he is trying to bring back. If you look at his userpage, he uses it for self promotion. He will not make any meaningful edits to any page other than his own. --[[User:James Maxx|'''<span style="background:lime; color:red"> &nbsp;Jลмєs Mลxx</span><span style="background:lime; color:blue">™&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:James Maxx|'''<span style="background:blue; color:yellow">&nbsp;Msg me&nbsp;</span>''']] 03:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:I've warned him and will keep an eye on this user. Thanks. '''[[User:Sasquatch|Sasquatch]]'''  [[User_talk:Sasquatch|t]]|[[Special:Contributions/Sasquatch|c]] 17:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Bucharest]] is 'Paris of the East' ==

One more thing: on the page [[Bucharest]] you can read it is 'Paris of the East' or 'Little Paris'. That is not surprising, I grew up hearing that all the time. But using it for a neighboring country's capital, Budapest is a bit strange. In fact, most Hungarians would find that pretty offensive after the [[Treaty of Trianon]] which was a disaster to this country. [[User:Squash Racket|Squash Racket]] 07:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

:Sorry, getting countries to sign treaties does not fall under our jurisdiction. --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 08:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

'''Forced''' 'treaty' after World War I (read consequences of treaty). Anyway not the best memory of Paris, France. That's for sure. [[User:Squash Racket|Squash Racket]] 08:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

:I still dont get it; what do you want admins to do? Protect the article? Delete it? Move over an existing article? What? 

:I suspect this is a content dispute. Please follow [[WP:DR]]. --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 08:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It is a content dispute. The article is protected after an edit war, partly on this point. There is discussion on the article's talk page. [[User:DrKiernan|DrKiernan]] 08:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/NYScholar]] ==

The above named arbitration case has closed. All involved parties are granted an amnesty over the edit-warring that had been ongoing but has given the administrators the ability to sanction anyone who begins disruptive editing again.

You may view the full case decision at the case page.

For the Arbitration Committee,<br>

- [[User:Penwhale|Penwhale]] &#124; <sup>[[User_talk:Penwhale|Blast him]] / [[Special:Contributions/Penwhale|Follow his steps]]</sup> 11:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard]] ==

Now that this has survived MfD, I'd like to spam it a bit. The header basically describes what it's for, but I'm trying to address a growing problem that at the moment is sneaking under the radar. At any rate, it needs some more eyes: watchlist and comment, please! Editors from a humanities background especially welcome, as the maths and science people at the moment don't deal with this issue too badly. [[User:Moreschi|Moreschi]] <sup> [[User talk:Moreschi|Talk]]</sup> 18:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
== [[User:Edwin rose]] ==

{{user|Edwin rose}} - every one of this User's edits has been to his User or Talk pages.  He seems to be keeping the pages for call scripts and call tracking.  [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 23:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:My. Um, there may not be a whole lot we can do, there; I've deleted the history of both, and left the guy a note asking him to contribute or move on. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 23:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::Oh gosh, Luna, Geocities or Angelfire?  Lycos is probably the single-worst webhost out there, period.  Even Blogspot would be better than those two "webhosts".  I personally like Sitesled. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] 00:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:::But Blogspot didn't give me a giant sack of mone-- I mean, you're right. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 20:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
He just recreated it.  How long has he been editing his userpage? [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] 00:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== Abuse of vandalism warnings? ==

[[User:Rob right]], who appears to  be a new user created just today, but whose behaviour today seems to indicate some more extensive experience, has today  issued a vandalism warning against [[User:Jza84]]. A number of users have commented that this warning is absurd, given the nature of the ongoing discussion about [[Manchester]], which is the article  whose content prompted this action by Rob right. I and others consider this to be a misuse of the vandalism warbings in some attempt to stifle legitimate debate. Jza84 is a long-standing user who is well-respected amoungst UK-based editors for his work on UK  geography articles. Can I ask for some action about this? I would have thought that a traceroute to determine if Rob right is a sockpuppet, and if so, whose, might be useful, followed by appropriate action iof required, but this is of course, not up to me to decide, but I gently suggest it. This kind of misuse of warnings seems to go completely against the spirit of wikipedia. [[User:ddstretch|<span style="border:1px solid DarkGreen; padding:1px;"><span style="color:White; background:DarkGreen; font-size:x-small;">&nbsp;DDStretch&nbsp;</span></span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:ddstretch|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-size:x-small;">(talk)</span>]] 17:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:Agree it's not a valid warning -- content disputes aren't vandalism. Rob right, whoever they are, strongly appears to be a sockpuppet, and I've blocked them, for the time being, requesting an explanation of how they ran across the dispute. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 20:34, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

:: The following anonymous talk page: [[User talk:195.212.52.6]] might be relevant here if a checkuser has been carried out. [[User:ddstretch|<span style="border:1px solid DarkGreen; padding:1px;"><span style="color:White; background:DarkGreen; font-size:x-small;">&nbsp;DDStretch&nbsp;</span></span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:ddstretch|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-size:x-small;">(talk)</span>]] 21:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

:::The anon (195.212.52.6) signs as [[User:Rob right]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Greater_Manchester&diff=prev&oldid=144437164 here]. [[User:Jza84|Jza84]] 21:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
::::{{user|212.139.77.181 }} signs as "Prof Rob Right" [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Erebus555&diff=prev&oldid=141681815 here].  Off-wiki comments at [http://www.channelm.co.uk/talk/lifestyle/?tmsg=5006107], [http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk/index.asp?Sessionx=IpqiNwy6IWxlKaqiNwF6IHqi&realname=Food_and_Drink_Roundup_29_June_2007], [http://www.msrepresentation.com/blog/2006/01/first-post.html], and [http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/c/1000429_give_casino_away_urges_mp.html] may provide some background information.  [[User:Mr Stephen|Mr Stephen]] 22:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::The 195.212 IP is almost definitely the same person -- edited Rob right's userpage, as well. The other is pretty likely, as well. Some of those comments you've linked might lead me to keep an eye on this person, but if they've been involved in the dispute previously, on-wiki, then this may just be somebody who happened to register an account, today, in which case blocking them as a sockpuppet would probably be out of line; thoughts, anyone? &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 22:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::That's how I read it.  [[User:Mr Stephen|Mr Stephen]] 22:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
::I have just noticed that [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]], section 47, also reports actions by this user, and contains some information which might add to the content here. I was unaware of this prior report until just now.  [[User:ddstretch|<span style="border:1px solid DarkGreen; padding:1px;"><span style="color:White; background:DarkGreen; font-size:x-small;">&nbsp;DDStretch&nbsp;</span></span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:ddstretch|<span style="color:DarkGreen; font-size:x-small;">(talk)</span>]] 22:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

== Requested block ==

<div style="margin: 1em;" class="resolved"><span style="border: 1px solid #aaa; background: #fff; padding: 6px; margin-right: .5em;">[[Image:Check_mark.svg|20px|Resolved]] [[Template:Resolved|Resolved]]</span>{{#if: {{{1|}}}|<span style="font-size: smaller;">{{{1}}}</span>}}</div>

Hi, i have run into a slight situation. Will an admin please be so kind as to block my account for 36 hours? Thanks! <span style="font-family:serif;">&mdash;[[User:Ptkfgs|ptk]]✰[[User_talk:Ptkfgs|fgs]]</span> 03:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

:We don't ordinarily block on request. I left a query for the user. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 03:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
== [[:User:Smatprt]] violations ==

I claim that this user is acting in the Shakespeare Authorship without consensus and for the past year has taken complete ownership of the article. He has already been blocked twice for 3RR violation [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive45#User:Smatprt__reported_by_User:Alabamaboy_.28Result:_24_hours.29]][[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive46#User:Smatprt_reported_by_User:Alabamaboy_.28Result:48hr.29]] and he has a reputation for non-consensus in his editing on other forums. For example, on 13 May 2007 we find under the Shakespeare heading that "Smatprt is trying to delete all the arguments and information from Kathman's site while retaining all material published by non experts in non-scholarly, purely commercial presses" [[http://www.mind42.com/wiki/User_talk:Hornplease]] and this one from a google search "You might like to take a quick look at the Shakespeare plays, where a certain Smatprt has taken it upon himself to perform mass restoration of the tags ..." [[http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Good+Modest+smatprt+tags&meta=]]. It is his custom when confronted to file a report on the Administrator's noticeboard blaming his accuser. The following example resulted in no block.[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive29#User:Barryispuzzled_reported_by_User:Smatprt_22:31.2C_13_October_2006_.28UTC.29_.28Result:No_block.29]] You might like to obtain the testimony of the following users [[user:mandel|mandel]], [[user:barryispuzzled|barryispuzzled]], [[User:Paul_Barlow|Paul_Barlow]], [[User:alabamaboy|alabamaboy]]. I should like to see a substantial block inforced. ([[User:Felsommerfeld|Felsommerfeld]] 11:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC))
:: I think it important to note that this complaint was in retaliation for my listing a complaint about Felsommerfeld on this same page several days ago.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=144128818]. In actuality - the accuser is far more guilty of this - See Feldsommerfeld's deletions here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=prev&oldid=143505501], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=prev&oldid=143595375], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=prev&oldid=143694735], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=prev&oldid=143756551], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=prev&oldid=143978193], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=prev&oldid=144094677] - all properly referenced material apparently cut because they support the Oxfordian viewpoint or mentioned the word "Oxford".[[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 13:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

:I tried briefly to help at [[Shakespearean authorship]] earlier, basically with copyediting, but found the unreasonableness and stonewalling of Smatprt too disheartening to continue my efforts, even though they were appreciated by everybody else there. Smatprt also seems to be a tireless pest at [[William Shakespeare]], where he edit wars to make the classic crank Shakespeare-wasn't-Shakespeare theory as large and as undue-weighty a part of the article as possible. His intentions are no doubt good, but his practice is destructive, and he makes the lives of  the other Shakespeare editors wearisome. May I recommend the new [[Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard]] (mentioned below) to your attention, Felsommerfeld? I don't feel I'm knowledgeable enough about the Shakespeare articles to list the case on that noticeboard myself. (I gave up editing them in the face of Smatprt's obstructiveness.) [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 22:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC).
:Smatprt is undoubtedly sincere in his beliefs but his one-sidedness is unrelenting and it is seriously skewing the page. He will push and push and push to get in Oxfordian arguments by any means and exclude "Statfordian" ones by any means. What I find mu=ost dismaying is his willinglness to delete statements he knows to be factually accurate if they contradict his POV. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 23:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
::I also think it important that Paul B above provide a list of my supposed improper deletions and "exclusions".  I try to only delete a statement if it is not properly referenced, or if the Stratfordian editors refuse to provide a reference.  References to personal blogs and websites by non-experts have also been deleted on occasion, after discussion (David Kathman's website, for example, which has been declared non-reliable.)  On the other hand - I do indeed add material as long as I can properly reference it. Felsommerfled left this complaint with dozens of administrators, and those who have responded have not shown any agreement with Felsommerfeld or the users above.  It is also important to note that the above editors are clearly Stratfordians, and they are editors who themselves are guilty of mass deletions of properly referenced material. In face Felsommerfeld's contribution list consists of 55 talk page entries and 7 mass deletions.[[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 00:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:::"I try to only delete a statement if it is not properly referenced". That is precisely the point. It is dishonest, or at best disingenuous, editing because you delete information that ''you know to be true'' if it is mainstream/Stratfordian. The obvious example is your deletion of the references to the fact that an alleged portrait of Oxford actually depicts Hugh Hamersley. The whole caption was uncited, but you only chose to delete the mainstrean facts while keeping the - also completely uncited - non-mainstream claim that the portrait depicts Oxford. This is a claim that has been rejected even by many Oxfordians. Your comments clearly indicated that you knew full well about the evidence for the Hamersley attribution. You could have added the citation yourself if your editing had been truly honest: that is, aimed at improving the article. Instead you chose to delete facts in order ''deliberately'' to distort the presentation of evidence to the reader. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 12:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Paul -this is where your premise fails - you claim that "I know" certain things "to be true".  How on earth do you know what I believe? In fact, I do NOT believe that the portrait depicts Hugh Hamersley. From what I've read, it's unprovable at this point.  I do know that I came up with a reference when requested. Considering there are at least 6 Stratdordian editors actively working (deleting) this page, why on earth should I do the Stratdordian referencing? I don't have ready access to the volumes of Stratdfordia that you do - and why should I spend time researching when you guys have that more than covered? I'm filing the need for referencing Oxfordian statements, since most of the Stratfordian editors on this page actively discourage Oxfordain information and delete anything with the word "Oxford" in it[[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 13:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Is that it?  Out of some 1700 edits you've come up with one questionable deletion?  The way you talk I expected a list of at least a dozen diffs to prove your point. In fact - anyone looking over my edit list will find "additions", "cites", "refs", a fair amount of vandal reversions, reformatting of all the SH plays (part of Wikiproject), but hardly any of the wholesale deletions that I have been falsely accused of above.  
:::::Yes, you do it all the time. But the sheer tediousness of listing such examples makes it not worth my effort unless this proceeds to a formal process, which at the moment it is not. Also, you misunderstand - or willfully misrepresent- what I said. I maent that you knew the ''information presented in the caption'' to be true - that the mainstream view was that it is a portrait of Hamersley. Obvious ''you'' don't like to believe that. Even the current caption contains no clear citation of Barrell and uses misleading language (Barrell "determined" that it was Oxford. Other researchers "suggest" that it is Hamersley). In fact no-one other than Oxfordians doubt that it is Hamersley. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 14:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Paul - here is a list of some of your undiscussed deletions:  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=104212134&oldid=104210003], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=next&oldid=125174812], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=72017110&oldid=71993597], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=66332116&oldid=66325478], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=33770676&oldid=33755744].  While I would probably agree with several (of not most) of them, that's probably not the point. The point is you are on this "He makes massive deletions" rag and I have asked for a list.  You provide one example based on an unprovable assuption (what I know to be true). What you know to be true is the following - I have spent far more time reinserting deleted material than deleting anything.  You know this. Just like the unfounded accusations of SockPuppetry, you knew the truth there too. [[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 14:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:Your list of some deletions I made is pure evasion. Everyone makes deletions. Yes, I knew the truth about the Sockpupptry allegation and '''I said so''' didn't I? I notice that you do not deny that you knew the mainstream opinion. You just say that I can't ''proove'' that you did. Innocent people do not say "you can't prove it". They say "It's not true". [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 16:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC) 

:::Also - a compromise is already in the works on the discussion page, based on the input of several administrators who are taking "no sides" at the present.[[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 00:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Finally - Felsommerfeld has just apologized for "doubting my integrity" and for leveling accusations of SockPuppetry, proven untrue, which he also left on about a dozen different administrators mailboxes after I complained about him. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AShakespearean_authorship_question&diff=144359566&oldid=144308366].  In spite of this, I am ready and willing to move on and I would hope that Felsommerfeld is too.[[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 00:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:In August-October 2006, I (a Baconian, who signed as QBrute) spent a lot of time in rigorous debate with [[The_Singing_Badger]] (a Stratfordian) balancing the Shakespeare Authorship article. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shakespearean_authorship_question/Archive_1#18_plays]] Smatprt appeared with the clear intention of promoting his views that the Earl of Oxford was Shakespeare. He was relentlessly one-sided in debate and to my mind had already decided that his changes were going in the article. I gave up and the article deteriorated. I now see (above in Felsommerfeld's report "The following example resulted in no block") that the person who Smatprt tried to block was me![[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RRArchive29#User:Barryispuzzled_reported_by_User:Smatprt_22:31.2C_13_October_2006_.28UTC.29_.28Result:No_block.29]] No editor or administrator has managed to halt his crusade. I am confident that if Smatprt is not removed from these forums he will succeed in destroying the entire Shakespeare project. ([[User:Barryispuzzled|Puzzle Master]] 14:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC))
::Barry left this out - See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Shakespearean_authorship_question/Archive_1&diff=prev&oldid=95091606 for his declaration of support for the article after most of my changes were implemented: ""Having left this article for some time and only recently read it again I think it now has a fair representation of all views.... So, well done to those who have worked on this page." (Puzzle Master 14:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC))
And here is the article on that date: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&oldid=95170041]. Hyphen para, 1604, etc., - all in.  You called it a "fair representation of all views".  The only difference now is that the lead para has been slashed down to one of the smallest and most underdeveloped lead paragraphs I've ever seen. Aside from that, and given your earlier statement, I truly fail to understand why you are back in attack mode - unless this is just retaliatory, as your above para implies.[[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 15:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::What Barry also fails to mention is that I was part of that discussion (scroll down in that archived conversation and you will see plenty, including my official welcome - an unwarranted attack that was later deleted and apologized for. (This seems to be the mode with many of the editors on this page - attack and make accustions, raise a ruckus with false statements, than "apologize" after being proven wrong, then accuse again. The archive also seems to show Barry using at least 3 different account names. He has deleted critism of the Bacon argument and his discussions and issues have predominantly focussed on Bacon, just as mine have focussed on Oxford. [[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 15:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

::The issue is this, is the 1604 section which you have fought to keep in the article pro-Oxfordian? You evidently think so "anything pro-oxford (1604 question, hyhenation of name) is being regularly deleted?" [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shakespearean_authorship_question/Archive_1#Question_on_Fairness]]. [[User:mandel|mandel]] thinks so too. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shakespearean_authorship_question/Archive_4#Moving_1604_Section]] And my more recent opinion is that I did too "Following a suggestion by  [[User:Mandel|Mandel]] ...".[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shakespearean_authorship_question#Reversion_to_consensus]] I would be more sympathetic to you if you could admit your behaviour ... but I don't think that's possible for you. ([[User:Barryispuzzled|Puzzle Master]] 15:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC))

:::I have indeed apologized for errors in judgement and other offenses. But I should also stand up for what I believe, and be consistant in doing so.  To answer you directly, yes- of course they are pro-oxfordian.  That in no way makes tham any less "anti-stratfordian" - as you should know better than most. I am sorry that some anti-strat arguments can also be anti-bacon arguments, but unfortunately that is the case. Regarding the hyphen - even you admit that it is not "only" oxfordian, but none-the-less, I have agreed to see that section censored from the article. I am much more interested in having you answer me directly - why did you issue that flowery declaration of support congratulating all the editors in Dec 06?  And why now have you seemingly retracted every bit of it?[[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 16:15, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


[[User:Felsommerfeld]] is justified in making this complaint against [[User:Smatprt]] and the suggestion that he is merely retaliating for  Smatprt's similar action  against him should not be taken into consideration.

Smatprt's history of disruptive editing on [[William Shakespeare]] goes back many months. An example [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_Shakespeare&diff=next&oldid=126814408 here], and my reaction on the talk page [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:William_Shakespeare&diff=126817205&oldid=126736216 here], of when a consensus has been reached, only to be swept away by Smatprt replacing the agreed version with his own contentious edit.

Without wishing to elevate my own editing of Shakespeare-related articles to additions of any value (the topic has now been taken up by editors of real knowledge and authority) I stopped contributing solely because of the impossibility of working on subjects upon which he had taken a stand. From the sidelines I noted that his editing greatly hampered the drive to make [[William Shakespeare]] a featured article, in the face of requests from assessors to stop. An example: [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/William Shakespeare/archive2|"It is making the article unstable"]]. He seems to have acknowledged this point ("...I do regret my part in any of the issues referred to") [[Talk:William Shakespeare|here]]. However, one day later he "completely skews" another agreed section, commented [[Talk:William Shakespeare#Bad edit to "Authorship question"|here]]. These are representative of an  attitude of a seeming complete disregard for other editors' views and lack of concern for progress and improvement to articles.
I strongly support [[User:Felsommerfeld]]'s suggestion. [[User:Old_Moonraker|Old_Moonraker]] 08:20 15 July 2007

Why it happens that each time people start discussing Shakespeare, the discussion ends up by being hijacked by those folks who believe the plays were written by Marlowe, Bacon, Queen Elizabeth, etc.? The fate of humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare is instructive in this respect. To quote Bishonen's summary of the situation in Wikipedia: "Smatprt seems to be a tireless pest at William Shakespeare, where he edit wars to make the classic crank Shakespeare-wasn't-Shakespeare theory as large and as undue-weighty a part of the article as possible. His intentions are no doubt good, but his practice is destructive, and he makes the lives of the other Shakespeare editors wearisome".[1] Although the issue is not urgent, this activity is disturbing and needs to be investigated. --Ghirla-трёп- 22:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

::Please note that I was not trying to make the case, I was trying to make sure all mention of the topic wasn't deleted from the page, or as one administrator called it "whitewashing the authorship issue". The problem with Bishonen (mentioned above) and a few complaining editors, is that he would like to see the topic censored from the page in whole, as well as the topic itself banished from Wikipedia. That is what I am trying to make sure does not happen. Smatprt 14:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[User: 209.150.54.112]] ==

This user keeps consistently removing his block notice from their talk page, and leaving abuse in it's place. Please can you do something about it. [[User:Jordanhatch|Jordan]][[User talk:Jordanhatch|hatch]] 07:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:JUst leave them go, removing the block notice is not agaisnt policy, elthough many people don't like it. Reinserting it is just annoying them further. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 07:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::Calling it "vandalism" and trying to take ownership ''is'' a problem, though. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] 08:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[75.211.145.215]] ==

This anon (as well as [[70.212.198.46]] in the past) is writing untrue statements on the [[Paleoclimatologist]] entry.  Please monitor it and perhaps prohibit this user from commenting.  [[User:Iceberg007|Iceberg007]] 17:55, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

This user's page is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/75.211.145.215
*Solved by redirecting the article. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]]</small></sup> 18:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

*Thanks!  [[User:Iceberg007|Iceberg007]] 18:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== Heads-up on [[User: 70.128.41.152]] ==

{{user|70.128.41.152}}

This anon has been quietly removing {{tl|trivia}} and similar tags from pop-culture related articles over the last couple of days with neither significant edits nor any talk page consensus to justify such moves. I have reverted where I found them, and warned him once, but keep an eye out in case he goes back to it. [[User:Daniel Case|Daniel Case]] 14:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
== Vandal identified as Kevin1243 ==

After reviewing many sources of history & discussion on the user with the screen name Kevin1243, other external links should be mentioned also.  The use of free internet web sites is becoming very popular with teenagers, and many young individuals are also posting blogs, and creating profiles on dating services.  Such seems to be the case with this user... what contributions to Wikipedia are not about.  For one example only, visit
[http://www.faceparty.com/Kevin1243 http://www.faceparty.com/Kevin1243].  I can't list another, becuase it's a porn site.  A poll of other users that have accused Kevin1243 of SNEAKY VANDALISM:  39 AGAINST   5 Undecided   7 Users that no longer exist, with various explainations of growing weary of VANDALISM when trying to contribute.  Having a short list only, user complaints on [[User_talk:Kevin1243]] will grow.  Administrators should consider appropriate action to deter future VANDALISM.  [[User:StationNT5Bmedia|StationNT5Bmedia]] 18:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

:Well, as I pointed out on [[WP:JIMBO|Jimbo's talk page]]: ''Looks like this is a bit of a dispute surrounding [[Non-synchronous transmissions]], where it appears Kevin1243 has placed a couple of maintenance tags, suggested a merge, and most recently [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Non-synchronous_transmissions&diff=144056314&oldid=144052851 removed a bunch of commercial links] quite properly. Looking at his talk page, he's done a lot of new page patrol, from the looks of things, and gathered the usual complaints about articles that were either deleted or later properly developed. I certainly don't see any indication of vandalism there, and StationNT5Bmedia's attempted tagging of Kevin's page with block tags looks a bit odd.'' Recommending [[WP:N|non-notable articles]] for deletion is not vandalism, nor is removing [[WP:SPAM|commercial links]]. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Tony Fox|review?]]</small> 20:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

::This is becoming ridiculous, and these accusations are now crossing the line and becoming a personal attack. Anyway, I'm off on vacation in a couple of hours, and so I'll have to let my contributions stand for themselves. [[User:Kevin1243|Kevin]] 21:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:::I will watch your page. Enjoy your break. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 21:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

:Having been contacted by StationNT5Bmedia I've responded to him with a rather lengthly observation of this conflict at [[User talk:StationNT5Bmedia|his talk page]].  You may be interested in reading it.  It is far too long to bring here.  In essence I concur with Tony Fox above.  Cheers!  --[[User:EarthPerson|EarthPerson]] 20:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

::And an excellent summary it is, too. Basically, that's my observation too. Really, there's not much to see here. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Tony Fox|review?]]</small> 22:58, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== Umm... ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vundo_dialog_box_%28trojan%29.jpg] needs a deletion. '''[[User:Prelate Zeratul|<font color="ForestGreen">Zeratul</font>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Prelate Zeratul|<font color="DarkRed">En Taro Adun!</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Prelate Zeratul|<font color="LightSteelBlue">So be it.</font>]]</sub>''' 23:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:Why? [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 23:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:Other than that [[SysProtect]] is not an ideally formatted article, both by our standards our fair use policy. . . [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 23:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
::Uh, well... "This image or media is claimed to be used under Wikipedia's fair use policy but has no explanation as to why it is permitted under the policy. Non-free images need a fair use rationale each time they are used in an article. Consider adding one to this page if possible. Unless at least one rationale is provided, the image will be deleted after Monday, 9 July 2007. Please remove this template if a rationale is provided.

Note that the boilerplate copyright tags do not by themselves constitute a fair use rationale.
" '''[[User:Prelate Zeratul|<font color="ForestGreen">Zeratul</font>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Prelate Zeratul|<font color="DarkRed">En Taro Adun!</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Prelate Zeratul|<font color="LightSteelBlue">So be it.</font>]]</sub>''' 02:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[WP:CIVIL]] ==

The unprovoked and continuing attacks upon me at the bottom of [[Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Intelligent_design]] by [[User:Odd_nature]] and [[User:Orangemarlin]] make it very difficult for me to contribute there.  I would appreciate some form of intervention.  Diffs: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Intelligent_design&diff=144502102&oldid=144501062 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Intelligent_design&diff=next&oldid=144502102 here directed at someone else], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Intelligent_design&diff=next&oldid=144502623 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Intelligent_design&diff=next&oldid=144503921 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Intelligent_design&diff=next&oldid=144505624 here], among others.   Thanks, [[User:Gnixon|Gnixon]] 23:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

'''Update'''  They seem to have followed me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abiogenesis&diff=144503841&oldid=144502205 here], where they are reverting my edits, apparently with little understanding of the subject.  [[User:Gnixon|Gnixon]] 00:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

'''Update 2''' Perhaps only Odd Nature is stalking me, but he's also followed me [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Physics&diff=144503932&oldid=144314647 here] and made a very uninformed revert of my edits.  [[User:Gnixon|Gnixon]] 00:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:I see all kinds of unpleasantness at the FAR, the worst of which is coming from neither of the people you mention.  I don't see that handing out blocks would help anything, nor is it justified.  All we can ask is that all participants please try to work toward consensus and not post inappropriate comments out of frustration. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 00:18, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::Could you at least convey such a message to those parties, unless you think I've somehow invited their attacks?  Is there any case in which Odd Nature's stalking me to unrelated articles is acceptable?  [[User:Gnixon|Gnixon]] 00:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Just to anyone reading this ANI, Gnixon does this on a regular basis, like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=123279652 here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=119612947 here].  He's accused others of stalking (see both of the previoius ANI's), but the fact is many of us watch these articles.  He has been the subject of discussions by several admins in the past, such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AGnixon&diff=121226496&oldid=121199433 here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Adam_Cuerden&diff=prev&oldid=134847264 here].  I think this is getting old and embarrassing to the project.  If anyone stands up to this editor, he quickly runs to ANI to file a complaint, where he's 0 for 5 or so in getting any action.  Everything I stated in the FAR was factual.  He did refactor pages without consensus, he edited articles without consensus, and he continues to be a POV warrior.  If anyone needs warnings or a block, it's Gnixon.  [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 07:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:Those two links would be the two ANI's I've filed.  If the community can't regulate behavior like this, I'm not sure I want to participate.  [[User:Gnixon|Gnixon]] 23:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[User:Felsommerfeld]] ==

	
This user appears to be operating a "Disruptive throwaway account" used only for a few mass deletions and accusations. Out of a total 62 edits, 55 were used making false accusations against myself. The other 7 were making mass deletions of long-standing material to the Shakespeare Authorship Question article.  As pointed out recently by an administrator [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AShakespearean_authorship_question&diff=144169761&oldid=144165642]- is a minority viewpoint article. Unfortunately, Felsommerfeld refuses to see that. The reasons seem to be as follows:
	
1) User is a staunch Stratfordian who has stated that the article in question shouldn't even exist. He has made several mass deletions of well referenced material.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=prev&oldid=143505501], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=next&oldid=143511363], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=next&oldid=143675651], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=next&oldid=144094388]
	
2) Because I restored this material, the user has made personal attacks, false accusations and went so far as to make erroneous reports to over a dozen administrators.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=next&oldid=144062010], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=prev&oldid=143989844], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Shakespearean_authorship_question&diff=prev&oldid=143993662]
 	
For full disclosure I have allowed myself to be dragged into 2 edit wars/3Rs, for which I have great regret. In each case it was because staunch stratdordians were making mass deletions of properly referenced materials. I believe this user is again trying to draw me into a 3R revert. Instead, I am keeping my edits light and I am coming here for help.
 	
I request this user be blocked or banned, whatever you feel is appropriate based on the behaviour and the pure mean-ness involved. Thanks for your consideration. [[User:Smatprt|Smatprt]] 15:29, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:re "''Stratfordian''"; Could you point me towards the relevant policy page or guideline? In the meanwhile, the rest appears to be content dispute with some pretty ''unlearned'' incivility and lack of good faith shown by various sides. As there is removal of referenced material I will request that [[User:Felsommerfeld]] refrains from doing so again. After that, it is up to all of you to find consensus of an article on who might really have written, ''"I have measured it from side to side, tis four feet long and two feet wide."'' [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 16:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::I think you will find it was almost Wordsworth, but you've misquoted it. It was only three feet long. "Stratfordian" is a term used by Oxfordians to mean someone who believes Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare. There is no policy regarding it. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 16:53, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::: :~) My response was a bit of a leg-pull (although I did mess up on the "Ode to a Puddle" bit) since it appeared that part of the complaint was that the editor held certain views (thanks for clarifying which, though) on who wrote Shakespeares' plays. I did comment at the editors talkpage. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 19:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== Candidates for Speedy Deletion ==

[[:Category:Candidates for speedy deletion]] is pretty backlogged.  Just sayin'.  :)  [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 20:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== Image deletions are driving good contributors away ==

I think everyone involved in running image tagging bot and deletions should read this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Quadell&diff=prev&oldid=144686336]. While I understand the reasons for tagging and deletions, This user has made some very good points that they way we are going about it, by generally just saying "tough shit, it's gone in seven days", is pretty inhumane and is driving contributors away. I know I'll get flamed for this, but surely a project with this much brainpower could think of a way to handle this intelligently and personally, rather than just slapping automated bot crap all over the wiki. [[User:pschemp|pschemp]] | [[User talk:pschemp|talk]] 23:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:Well, I think it's unfortunate that some people are having such a reaction to the copyright purge which has been going on, but we, as an encyclopedia, have been seriously remiss in the treatment of fair use images, and other types -- to the point of outright illegality in some cases.  People tend to take fair use images too lightly, treating them as a kind of colloquial "well, this is a "fair" use" idea -- and not as the very serious legal-copyright principle they need to be.  The same goes for public domain, or whatever else.  However, the argument that most people level is that they don't like being forced to go back and fix things that should have been done originally because we have, rightly, gotten more strict about images.  While is unfortunate in many cases, simply slapping a template on an image is not acceptable, and the fact that it once was is no defense.  We need to get these images ship-shape, and quickly, because having them poorly or incorrectly licensed is a threat to the very foundation of the encyclopedia.
:I am strongly in favor of some serious wording to the effect that uploading an image to Wikipedia under a specific license should be treated with the same seriousness that a court filing; anything less is unacceptable.  --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 23:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Haemo, this isn't about images being up loaded *now* but how older images and the people who worked hard to get them are being treated. Especially becasue in some cases, those editors have the rights or got the rights released, but the tags were different then. I think you didn't read the link I posted, because it's pretty clear there. [[User:pschemp|pschemp]] | [[User talk:pschemp|talk]] 00:08, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Yup, that was my understanding as commented in the second part of my response below. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 00:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:(edit conflict)I suppose the debate of having bot parameters (not) adjusted so images uploaded under different criteria than that now existing being treated differently exists somewhere? The problem with GDFL, Fair Use, and other matters is that policy has to be applied retrospectively if it is to be of any use. Perhaps a link to that discussion should be included in the tag template so to assauge the ire of long time contributors who find their previously acceptable content now falls foul of policy? [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 23:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:To Haemo, as I understand it the complaint is that the images ''were'' compliant when originally uploaded but that the tagging may infer that it was the uploader that was lax rather than the limitations of the then procedure. I can understand why that impression may not go down well with long time contributors. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 23:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

::It should be an inflexible rule, easily accomplished, that a bot announce a prospective image deletion on the talkpage of the User who has uploaded it, without exception, as a matter of course. The wording of the boilerplate needs to be carefully worded, to be as friendly as possible. This is what I should call the "bottom line." --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 00:22, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Enforcement of policy should always be done in a way that doesn't unduly alienate good editors... we need to remain vigilant on this issue and warn people when their actions are doing more harm (driving away good editors) than good (rigid and instant enforcement policy that would have no legal ramifications if not enforced in such a way). Sorry if it sounds like I'm stating the obvious, but that so many people leave the project over image bureaucracy... apparently the problem isn't obvious. --[[User talk:W.marsh|W.marsh]] 03:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:Pschemp is exactly right: good-faith editors are being driven off the encyclopedia by having their image contributions deleted. These images were compliant with policy when they were originally uploaded, but the tagging indicates it's the uploader's fault that the image "will be deleted in seven days". [[User:Firsfron|<span style="color:#0000FF;">Firsfron of Ronchester</span>]] 04:08, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:My two cents, Ive done what I can to try and make the image cleanup easier and it seems that the messages that my bot leaves may seem a bit harsh and input and/or changes are welcome. I use {{tl|missing rationale}} and {{tl|missing rationale2}} <sup>[[User talk:Betacommand|<span style='color: red'>∆</span>]]</sup> 04:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::You might try {{tl|Missing rationale short}} for experienced users. [[User:Chick Bowen|Chick Bowen]] 05:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:The solution?  Take the time to review the cats before deleting.  Don't just blindly clear.  Often times the problem is the source not being in the summary though it is in the license.  Use your head, be responsible, and don't think that deleting images requires less scrutiny than an article.  A bot does not do the work for you- it just reports to you.  If you can clear out a 200 image backlog in under 90 minutes the problem is on ''your'' end.  Images take far more work than articles.  [[User:Keegan|<font color="maroon">Keegan</font>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Teke|<font color="gray">talk</font>]]</small></sup> 05:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== Um... ==

{{resolved}}
I'm not exactly sure what to do with this!

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asdfghjkl&redirect=no
:Wow! You guys are fast! '''[[User:Prelate Zeratul|<font color="ForestGreen">Zeratul</font>]] <sup>[[User Talk:Prelate Zeratul|<font color="DarkRed">En Taro Adun!</font>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/Prelate Zeratul|<font color="LightSteelBlue">So be it.</font>]]</sub>''' 02:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
== URGENT Billy Blyton, Baron Blyton URGENT ==

A few days ago I posted the below. Nothing happended, and he has started again. Will someone please do something. He has ignored everyone. He is also vandalising Norma Major's page by ignoring her legal title. Someone please do something! --[[User:UpDown|UpDown]] 18:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

:''"Urgent help needed at [[Billy Blyton, Baron Blyton]]. [[User:Lawsonrob]] insists on changing the article title to William Reid Blyton, giving no reason. He has ignored the clear MofS guidelines (at [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Other non-royal names]] point 2) regarding peers. He has also moved in 5 times since 0015 this morning, which I believe is a breach of 3RR. On another page, [[David Clark, Baron Clark of Windermere]], he keeps trying to remove the "of Windermere", which is part of Clark's legal title. Please help quickly as he is not listening to anyone, and is very disruptive. --UpDown 18:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)''
::''I might recommend a request for comment. There seems to be issues with his editing behaviour going back almost to his arrival.--Crossmr 05:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)"''
::From his talk page this guy ahs been disruptive and at best unresponsive since he started editing, I'm hard blocking now. [[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 19:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:::It's been quiet for 2 days now.[[User:Rlevse|Rlevse]] 12:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== Block evasion by Indef blocked editor using static IP ==

I believe that [[User:Neutralizer]] who has been indefinitely blocked for using a plethora of sockpuppets (see [[:Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Neutralizer]]) is currently attempting to contentiously edit the article [[Michael Ignatieff]].  He was banned by community consensus ANI - see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive161#Sarah_Ewart this discussion].  This user was making extensive usage of his sockpuppets to edit war on this same article.  In the discussion above he was defending himself using a series of rotating IP's and attempting to continue his edit war.  Former admin and editor Sarah Ewart protected the article in order to block him from being able to edit it.  However, the article was recently unprotected and now he is back and trying to edit the article until I requested that protection be restored to the article.  Protection was restored, but I believe it will only be temporary.  Is there a way to deal with this situation in another manner? --[[User:Strothra|Strothra]] 20:21, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:Also see the discussion resulting from his request for unprotection of the article: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Michael_Ignatieff_.28edit.7Ctalk.7Chistory.7Clinks.7Cwatch.7Clogs.29] and this list of suspected sockpuppets which also gives IP ranges [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Ottawaman]. --[[User:Strothra|Strothra]] 20:29, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::Editor seems confused: "the article was recently unprotected". Article seems to have been unprotected 8 months ago[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Ignatieff&diff=95191669&oldid=95191580] and I edited this article for the first time about a week ago. I have tried to communicate with him but his "retired" label and his deletions without comment annoyed me. I resent his false accusations but will not be spending any more time on that article as it seems to be a toxic article for some reasons. I am not and never have been a sockpuppet or had a sockpuppet but I value my right to edit anonymously whether Strothra approves or not. My ISP is Bell in Toronto which is the largest ISP here so it's not strange that many people here would be interested in Canadian politics. I also think the administrators should do something about combative editors who delete without comment and who have misleading labels like "retired" on their user space. I don't know if I'll bother here at all anymore but I certainly won't be editing any articles that Strothra is editing. [[User:70.48.205.126|70.48.205.126]] 22:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Requested checkuser.  If confirmed, this likely calls for another range-block. --[[User:Strothra|Strothra]] 22:58, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
::::That's good although I am surprised the standards for use of checkuser would have dropped so far. Assuming you're able to obtain an inappropriate breach of privacy, I look forward to your apology. No offense but maybe you are really confused; I see you are accusing this editor [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:142.150.48.149&action=history] as well even though he is in a completely different location. [[User:70.48.205.78|70.48.205.78]] 02:13, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Both of those IPs are in the exact same range as the ranges that had to be blocked last time for similar contentious policy breeching edit wars coming from a single editor (70.48.0.0/16 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page=User%3A70.48.0.0%2F16 block log] and 65.95.0.0/16 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page=User%3A65.95.0.0%2F16 block log]). What I am saying is that both of you are the same person.  If the standards have dropped?  Interesting that for someone who has only supposedly recently begun editing that you know so much about Wiki.  --[[User:Strothra|Strothra]] 06:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Blocked per [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Neutralizer checkuser].--[[User:Strothra|Strothra]] 13:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== Overdue IfD request ==

Could someone close this IfD quickly (either way): [[Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2007 July 6#Image:JohnProfumo.jpg]] before the bad faith accusations escalate further.--[[User:Konstable|Konstable]] 12:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:Closed as delete. [[User:Garion96|Garion96]] [[User talk:Garion96|(talk)]] 12:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kirk Fraser]] ==

I nominated [[Kirk Fraser]] for deletion four weeks ago; it was deleted and then deleted again three times after recreation.  {{Userlinks|YousoCrazy}}, who made his first edit yesterday, requested on my talk page that this deletion be reviewed because [[Kirk Frasier]] is the correct spelling.  I have two questions.
#Is this correct?  Could someone please do an "unofficial" deletion review to see if this fellow's claim has merit?
#It would appear that YousoCrazy is a sockpuppet of someone who is aware of the previous deletion discussion, and he also "spammed" five other user talk pages.  Is any action (i.e. warning or blocking) called for?

[[User:Shalom|Shalom]] <sup>[[User talk:Shalom|Hello]]</sup> 16:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't look like the spelling difference would help any.  Googling "Kirk Frasier" brings up 92 hits, most of them related to the wikipedia article. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 16:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:According to the IMDB link [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2195381/ listed in the deleted article], his name is "Fraser". He also has exactly one IMDB credit which doesn't bode well for his notability. [[User:Irishguy|<b style="color:green;">IrishGuy</b>]] [[User talk:Irishguy|<sup style="color:blue;">''talk''</sup>]] 17:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== Redirect error ==

In an article, when I put "fluorescent" as a link, it redirects to an old version of the Fluorescence page, it has the picture missing at the top, at the bottom it says "This page was last modified 07:29, 12 July 2007", the correct page was edited on 15th of July, when I added some things to the "See also" section, which is also not there in the 12th of July version. When hitting Ctrl and Refresh, it loads the 15th of July page. (At the bottom it says "This page was last modified 16:47, 15 July 2007".)

(The page I was adding the link to was "Fluorescent Multilayer Disc". I've left it as "fluorescence|fluorescent" for now, which makes the link "fluorescence" rather than a link to the redirection, "fluorescent".) [[User:85.211.175.239|85.211.175.239]] 17:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
== {{vandal|Emberton238}} ==

{{resolved|[[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 12:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)}}
His password's on his userpage. This is quite naughty, though I've not checked to see if the password's right or not.--[[User:Rambutan|Rambutan]] ([[User talk:Rambutan|talk]]) 11:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

:Well, it's ''his'' password. :P Looks like he could be a potential vandalism-only account, but let's give him the benefit of doubt... · <font face="Times New Roman">[[User:AO|'''A'''''ndonic'''''O''']] <sup>[[User talk:AO|''Talk'']]</sup></font> 11:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:Password scrambled. [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 12:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
:Wrong.  Anyone who gives out their password is blocked.  This is long-standing Wikipedia policy.  Giving out your password prevents Wikipedia from ensuring that the account is not used by multiple people.  Multiple people may not use the same account.  [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 20:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[WP:BITE|BITE]] problem ==

{{Userlinks|Jamiepgs}} has been bitten quite badly. He's an enthusiastic newbie who has got a book of "interesting facts" which he has added to articles. He's then been accused of vandalism by editors not prepared to do a simple google search to find out that he is quite right even if some of them are marginal enough to not necessarily need adding. He's asking to be unblocked and is looking for help - I've checked all the "accusations" and left links showing he is quite right on his talk page. Could an admin unblock him asap please? I'll keep an eye on his contributions and help him get the hang of things. Thanks [[User:SOPHIA| <font color = "purple">'''Sophia'''</font>]] 11:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:I'll trust your research, SOPHIA, but can you please check contribs after I unblock. Thanks. [[User:ElinorD|ElinorD]] [[User talk:ElinorD|(talk)]] 11:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::Thanks Elinor - I will keep an eye on him and flag up if he really does start causing trouble. [[User:SOPHIA| <font color = "purple">'''Sophia'''</font>]] 11:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:I never disputed that most of his facts were true; however, his attitude and pedantry indicated that he will likely be a problem in the future. His facts were so marginal as to not merit inclusion (smell of the moon), or so pedantic as to confuse others (bangkok's name), and in one case (the U.S. state one) patently false, and he edit-warred to put it back. Just keep an eye on him. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 11:36, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::I consider this closed now but am a little concerned that someone could interpret Jamie's contribution history as edit warring and boding ill for the future [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jamiepgs]. Unless he has used IP's that I don't know about he has only made a maximum of two edits to the articles he has visited and his edit summaries read to me as frustration rather than pedantry. He made one visit to a talk page where he was given a very curt reply - his only user interaction other than dealing with warnings on his talk page. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sengkang&diff=144745336&oldid=144650832] As to Bangkok - I personally find it very interesting that none of the locals call it by that name and consider the adding of facts such as this essential to ridding Wikipedia of its Eurocentric/North American bias. I will keep an eye on him as I'm concerned he may go off the rails due to his rough handling but he seems to be really understanding of why this all happened so I have hope. [[User:SOPHIA| <font color = "purple">'''Sophia'''</font>]] 12:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::You're concerned that someone could interpret his edits on U.S. state as edit warring? Especially when he put a patently false bit of information then used the undo button to keep it there? And as for Bangkok, we already have the native name there - the full name can and does go in the article on Bangkok. This has nothing to do with bias. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 20:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[2007 Pan American Games medal count]] ==

I fear that I may be running close to the 3RR so I've come here to suggest my worries. The page in question has been handled by one user [[User:João Felipe C.S]] for a few days now. I've stepped in several times with suggestions as to how to fix up the page more appropriately, but the user, who uses no edit summaries, refuses to allow anything I do onto the page, using [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJared&diff=144836607&oldid=144832813 his inability to speak English] as his excuse not to hash out an agreement.

I don't want to take over the page myself, but at [[WP:OLYMPICS]], a wikiproject that may have some claim of jurisdiction over the page in question, we have long-standing precedents for pages such as this. I would have hoped the user would take some of my suggestions as an editor, and even as a WikiProject member, but seeing as how the user cannot do this, I felt like I needed to seek some higher authority to address this issue. All I am asking is that the user recognize that others want to edit freely, too. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>&ensp; 19:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:I have left a comment at User:João Felipe C.S's talkpage, which I copied to the article talkpage. You may wish to make your own suggestions or comments there (the article talkpage). It would be best if no changes to the format were made while waiting for any response/discussion. I hope this helps. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 21:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::Yes, I haven't done anything yet. And perhaps it may be better to wait until the games are over anyway. Thank you for leaving the user a message. I've left my own personal suggestions on the article talk page, so I'm awaiting a reply. I'm not going to make this too big a deal; I just wanted to ensure that the user didn't get a sense that if he edited a page long enough, he's the one that gets to take charge of it. <sub>└</sub><sup>'''[[User:Jared|<font color="#0084C9">Jared</font>]]'''</sup><sub>┘</sub><sup>┌</sup><sub>''[[User Talk:Jared|<font color="#009E49">t</font>]]''</sub><sup>┐</sup>&ensp; 22:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::User:João Felipe C.S responded quite civilly at [[User talk:LessHeard vanU|my talkpage]]. If they are indicating they will be co-operative then you might try commencing a dialogue? [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 22:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Davenport]] ==

{{resolved}}
[[User:Ctjf83]] did a cut and paste move of the disambig page [[Davenport]] to [[Davenport (disambiguation)]] back in May, then redirected [[Davenport]] to [[Davenport, Iowa]].  Both pages have now had several edits made to them. Could somebody fix the messed up edit histories of both pages, and redirect [[Davenport]] to [[Davenport (disambiguation)]] with a protection so that the redirect can't be moved back to [[Davenport, Iowa]]?  I don't think there is any consensus for that redirect. Davenport, Iowa is certainly not big enough to warrant having the name alone.  [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 20:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:Done.  Thanks for the heads-up, Corvus cornix.  [[User:Keegan|<font color="maroon">Keegan</font>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Teke|<font color="gray">talk</font>]]</small></sup> 21:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::By the way, I put the article at [[Davenport]] and not [[Davenport (disambiguation)]], because there is no main article at [[Davenport]].  If there were, ''then'' we'd use the disambig naming convention.  [[User:Keegan|<font color="maroon">Keegan</font>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Teke|<font color="gray">talk</font>]]</small></sup> 21:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:Thanks, Keegan.  [[User:Corvus cornix|Corvus cornix]] 21:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Hamid Yassin Adem]] ==

This article has been recreated after it was deleted at AfD - [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hamid Yassin Adem]]. It was put to AFD on July 9 and closed 'delete' on July 15. --[[User:Bduke|Bduke]] 21:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:Speedied. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] 21:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::This was recreated again.  I have speedied and salted. --[[User:After Midnight|After Midnight]] <sup><small>[[User talk:After Midnight|0001]]</small></sup> 02:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

== Edit protected ==

{{resolved}}
I request that three minor edits be made to the protected page [[Wikipedia:Requests for oversight]]:
*In the sentence "Click below and supply the "diff" of the revision which needs removal", link the word 'diff' to [[Help:Diff]]
*Please uncapitalise the word "admin" in 'Note to Admins'
*Please remove the unnecessary hyphens after '(faster)'
(sorry for posting this here, but [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for oversight]] is currently a protected redirect, and [[WP:RPP]] says one should only post an editprotected request there if the change is controversial/major) <b>[[User:Salaskan|<span style="color:red">Sala</span>]][[User talk:Salaskan|<span style="color:gold">Skan</span>]]</b> 01:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:Done. Thanks, Salaskan.  [[User:Keegan|<font color="maroon">Keegan</font>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Teke|<font color="gray">talk</font>]]</small></sup> 02:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
== Ethnic cliques ruling AfD? ==

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* This is not productive, and neither this notice board nor hurling around insults on the AFD discussed is going to remedy these issues.  Please, take it to [[WP:RFC|request for comment]] or file for [[WP:RFM|mediation]]. [[User:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; font-family: cursive ;color: #006600">Neil</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; color: #006600"><big>╦</big></span>]] 15:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)<!--*-->
|-
| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived discussion. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
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It has been noted time and again, that counting votes on AfD is especially tricky when the article concerns several ethnic cliques able to coordinate their activities outside Wikipedia (via e-mails, their national wikipedias, or some instant messaging agent along the lines of [[Gadu-Gadu]]). The problem is particularly acute with regard to Eastern Europe-related subjects. That's why I have suggested that we discount votes from accounts with all-too-predictable national background. [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Estophobia]] is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Estophobia&direction=next&oldid=144769187 the latest example] of "one nation vs. another" style of voting:

*From Estonian ("Tartu", "Korps! Estonia") accounts: 7 votes - '''all of them''' to keep. 
*From Russian accounts: 4 votes - '''all of them''' to delete; the nominator [[User:Mikkalai]] identifies as Belarusian.
*From Polish and Ukrainian accounts: 8 votes - '''all of them''' to keep. It should be noted that Ukrainian editors with Russophobic background arrived in droves after the vote of their eternal opponent, Kuban Kazak. it's not the first time that KK's vote provokes an avalanche of "opposes" from those who monitor his edits.
*From neutral accounts with no readily identifiable or relevant national background (an equivalent of third opinion): 15 votes to delete, 2 votes to keep, 2 neutral votes, 1 vote to userfy.

Here we go again: what's the point of counting the votes that may be easily predicted before the voting starts? The community seems to say: "If you want to have an article kept or deleted, regardless its content, please recruit as many fellow countrymen as you can and bring them to AfD". After I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Estophobia&direction=next&oldid=144769187 listed the voters] according to their nationality, to distinguish the neutral ones from the hopelessly biased, I was instanly reverted by a nationalist 15-year-old who proceeded to paste warnings and threats on my talk page. It's sad to see that the nationalists succeed in casting the AfD as a meaningful discussion in good faith where there is none. Pure nationalism. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 11:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

: Ghirlandajo's comments are meant to influence the AFD vote. Yes, I have a ukwiki account, but I joined English Wikipedia first. This shouldn't take the rights I have on this Wikipedia away, and it does not influence my decisions. Grouping people by projects they belong to is completely unnecessary, and it is only a means of influencing the outcome of the AFD. — [[User talk:Akhristov|Alex]]<sup>([[User:Akhristov|U]]|[[Special:Contributions/Akhristov|C]]|[[Special:Emailuser/Akhristov|E]])</sup> 11:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:: We need to discuss policy in regard of nationalist-motivated attempts to derail AfDs in general. You and your off-en-wiki friend Hillock65 instantly launched a coordinated attack against me on [[WP:ANI]], using it as a pretext for another trollfest that might attract all nationalist accounts mentioned above. Hillock65 has maintained several pages on uk.wiki which urge Ukrainian editors to go to English Wikipedia and to edit "problem pages" in order to stop "xenophobia". That's one reason why AfD has become useless in dealing with nationalist disruptions. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 11:45, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::Its not a vote thats going on at AfD. Its not the nationality of the editors that matters, but the strength of their arguments. And when the AfD seems to be controversial, admins do pay more attention evaluating the comments. The vote count is not the only thing that decides the outcome of an AfD. --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 11:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::: It's all very good in theory, but there are few admins savvy enough to follow the policy when an AfD is a flood of empty nationalist bickering. My edits were meant to help the closing admins to highlight the nationalist background for the votes, but they were summarily reverted. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 11:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Removing comments does not help an admin decide, rather by censoring certain point of view, you are influencing the outcome. You adding another comment asking that point to be disregarded, giving a justification why it should be, is a much better way. --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 12:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::::: Who removed votes? What are you talking about? Could you be more speicific in your comments? --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 12:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::: I am not saying removal as in deleting (I apologize for lack of political correctness). I said removal of comments from their intended-by-commenter location. That disrupts the intent of the comment (w.r.t. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FEstophobia&diff=144769884&oldid=144763769 ] this edit). --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 13:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC) 
::::::: That disrupts the ambition of certain nationalists to cast their opinion as an objective take on the situation? Perhaps. Is it a tragedy? This is open to the question. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 13:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: Votes should not be counted by nationality. Your edits are meant to influence the outcome, just like you stated above. Therefore they were reverted. — [[User talk:Akhristov|Alex]]<sup>([[User:Akhristov|U]]|[[Special:Contributions/Akhristov|C]]|[[Special:Emailuser/Akhristov|E]])</sup> 11:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::::: And who proposed to count the votes by nationality? We need to hear third opinions from neutral wikipedians, since both your and my votes are quite predictable. Your revert intentionally obfuscates the difference between the non-involved (neutral) and involved (biased) commentators. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 12:07, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::: As far as I remember, XfD is not a vote. And I don't understand why Polish or Ukrainian national background is considered relevant for the Russo-Estonian subjects, while Finnish, Dutch or American is not. And how admins are supposed to know whether an account is Russian, Estonian, Ukrainian, Polish or something else? Humans are much more complex than you assume here, they possess [[free will]] and their decisions are not predetermined by their background. The distinction between involved and non-involved editors is far more reasonable, but it is not clear how to implement this technically. [[User:Colchicum|Colchicum]] 12:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::: Your lack of understanding is not surprizing, given your background. You may ponitificate about "free will" as long as you wish, but the stern fact is that no uk.wiki account (as uk.wiki is run by nationalists) has voiced a dissenting opinion. You have to deal with that, don't you? As for the free-will of Polish accounts, their attitudes towards Russophobia [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus|are still under scrutiny]] in the ArbCom. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 12:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::??? What do you know of my background? [[User:Colchicum|Colchicum]] 12:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::: I refer, inter alia, to your passionate defense of the author of [[Estophobia]] from accusations of trolling and your attempts to represent him as a good-faith editor, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=139185692] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=139190793] as well as today's provocative comments on [[Talk:Russo-Estonian relations]]. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 13:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::Among [[nationalism]] and [[statolatry]], I certainly prefer the former.[[User:Colchicum|Colchicum]] 14:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::It's perhaps not news, but it still merits notion that [[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirlandajo]] is mischaracterising the diffs he links to.  And his accusations, which he makes every so often, but never backs up, are getting rather old. [[User:Digwuren|Digwuren]] 14:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Why should we even consider implementing such a thing? We dont compartmentalize articles or users based on geographic locations. --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 12:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::: I would welcome comments from folks non-involved in the never-ending Hindu-Muslim debacles. Their benefit from the current AfD mess is all too obvious. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 12:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::::: And who are you suggesting the "involved folks" are? --[[User:Soumyasch|soum]] <sup>[[User talk:Soumyasch|talk]]</sup> 13:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Ghirla in principle, these kinds of ethnic feuds often make AfDs and similar processes almost unuseable. There's no ready solution, except to hope that more admins will take a stronger stance about treating the "not a vote" principle seriously. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 12:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::: A good idea would be to restore the page to the way it was before Ghirla decided to classify people according to his view who belongs where. That "classification" is rediculous if not unfair. I attempted to restore it, but apparently a revert war is starting over this, so I urge admins to interfere. --[[User:Hillock65|Hillock65]] 12:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::: Only after you explain connection between the canvassing page [[:uk:Обговорення Вікіпедії:Допомога англійській Вікіпедії|uk:Requested Input into English Wikipedia]] (recently deleted at your own urging) and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive166#User:Hillock65_and_.22Jewish_atrocities_during_the_Ukrainian_famine.22 this discussion of your claims of "Jewish terrorism"] in English Wikipedia. No relation between uk.wiki canvassing and the mass arrival of uk.wiki accounts to English Wikipedia, eh? --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 13:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
* This is unbelievable! Racist discrimination based on nationality is happening before you eyes and no admin takes a stand about this!? And is it just me, or does {{user|Ghirlandajo}} seem to be launching an off topic personal attack at opponents on this very page and getting away with it?--[[User:Alexia Death|Alexia Death]] 13:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
*: You have been told a dozen times that the trolling of administrators' noticeboards by Korps! Estonia is not welcome. Is it not clear enough? If you have issue with "racist discrimination", you should address it to your own president and parliament who view a third of the Estonian population as "non-citizens". --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 13:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::* Well, obviously, such trolling is working out rather well for you. </sarcasm> [[User:Digwuren|Digwuren]] 14:22, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
*:: Your acidous insult and slander filled reply displays clearly you racism issues. I appeal to admins to see this users attacks for what they are.--[[User:Alexia Death|Alexia Death]] 14:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
*::: Since the administrators' noticeboards are hijacked by Korps! Estonia and the [[Gadu-Gadu]]-based accounts, I will have to move the discussion of nationalist AfD trollfests to the mailing list. Please throw your emotional snowballs without my participation. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 14:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
*::::I find retreating from the mess you have made to a medium where you cannot be countered MOST cowardly...--[[User:Alexia Death|Alexia Death]] 14:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)  
The kind of discrimination that Ghirlandajo employed here simply cannot stand, and stern action must be taken against him so he never attempts this kind of stunt again.  Otherwise all controversial AfD votes will become investigations into the background of those users whose votes Ghirlandajo does not like. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 13:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
: Of course the nationalists are alarmed that AfD will not be abused for ethnic feuds in the future. I may feel their pain. Nationalists of all countries, unite! --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 14:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:[[User:Ghirlandajo]] has been warned that if his 'nationality sorting' persists, anywhere on Wikipedia, he will be blocked. [[User:Crum375|Crum375]] 14:07, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:: Since you refer me to [[WP:VANDAL]] as a policy that I supposed to have violated, I urge you to quote the specific sentence from [[WP:VANDAL]] that defines my edits as vandalism and that sanctions nationalist canvassing. If you can't, I will welcome your apologies. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 14:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::While I'm also not very happy with the method of visually arranging votes by nationalities, I can see nothing wrong with describing the facts about ethnic alignment in a vote in such a way that a closing administrator can take them into account. This is not discriminating users or "sorting" them into ethnic pigeonholes - it is just describing the fact that in actual wikipedia reality people's opinions do come pre-sorted along national lines. And this can be very important for judging the outcome of a discussion. If in an AfD-like discussion all votes from one nationality go one way and all votes from another nationality go the other way, it's a pretty strong indication that there's something seriously wrong. Usually there's something seriously wrong with the article. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 14:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, how can you tell whether a user belongs to a certain nationality or not? This is totally subjective and shouldn't be tolerated. This is a fallacy: all these nationalities vote so-and-so because they are involved <=> nationalities are involved because they vote so-and-so. [[User:Colchicum|Colchicum]] 14:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: Most commentators have identified themselves on their user pages. Besides, I have enough experience in Wikipedia to know who represents which ethnic clique. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 14:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::I find this division hypocritical. Every controversial topic has a strong division line. That line is based on the subject of the article. If it is an article about a national issue then the division showing trends based on nationality is ONLY NATURAL. Should Religion themed AfD-s be sorted based on religion of the voters!? This is discrimination no matter how you look at it. That said, If the sorter would be the admin who finally makes the decision and does it in a non-accusative manner, than it would be fine. But this Is out of line by any standards.--[[User:Alexia Death|Alexia Death]] 14:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: So you find it natural that, once a student asked his entire class to register Wikipedia accounts and vote for his nationalist drivel, he will be able to determine the content of Wikipedia. This attitude has been discussed in connection with the previous activities of Korps! Estonia and was found to be erroneous. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 14:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Another weakly veiled accusation of meat puppetry and trolling name calling in hopes of bulling us away instead of meaningful discussion. How much will it take before something is done! IS THIS REALLY CIVIL!?--[[User:Alexia Death|Alexia Death]] 14:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::: This is an old story. You should throw about some hysterical epithets, preferrably bolding them to appear more persuasive, and then perhaps the block shopping will succeed. Seriously, if you have nothing factual to add, you are not expected to fill the page with emotional outbursts. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 15:37, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::: Hysterical? Emotional outburst? Look who's talking.--[[User:Alexia Death|Alexia Death]] 15:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Moving an editor's comment on AfD into a separate section based on his perceived nationality is vandalism and harassment. We focus on people's messages, not on their personal attributes. To do so despite warning is disruptive and will result in a block. [[User:Crum375|Crum375]] 14:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::: You are entitled to your personal opinions.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=BDORT&offset=20061123044531&action=history] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=BDORT&offset=20061024035628&action=history] They don't constitute anything remotely approaching policy. Despite your mantra-like threats above, I have made only [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Estophobia&diff=prev&oldid=144775892 one revert] in the entire debacle, which is consistent with my 1RR policy. If you block someone unfairly, he will be unblocked within a matter of minutes and the issue will go to ArbCom. That's all I have to say to you. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 14:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::The AfD process is not a vote.  It is the arguments of the people "voting" that actually count.  Such arguments should stand on their own merits.  If someone makes a good point, we should not place greater or lesser value on it by assigning the user to nationality X or Y. [[User:Balcer|Balcer]] 14:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:::: There is no disagreement here. I suggested that we should't pay too much attention to nationalist-motivated "keep" or "delete" pronouncements, but it's not for me to determine whether the community needs these ethnic AfD feuds. If the community thinks they are helpful and that each ethnic clique should be allowed to game the deletion process, I don't mind. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 14:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::''you should address it to your own president and parliament who view a third of the Estonian population as "non-citizens".'' (Ghirlandajo) Apparently, in case of this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Estophobia&diff=144047384&oldid=144043496 lad's fantasies] it is of no use referring to the real world: his ignorance of the Estonia's citizenship matter [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Estophobia&diff=144125869&oldid=144123278 has been revealed] some days ago... But it doesn't hinder him from re-telling us his fantasies here...  One might prove things hundred times, facts can't change his mind, once he has formed an opinion. Oh, needless to say, all those who dare to disagree with this user (who appears as if he has been endowed with [[Papal infallibility|divine infallibility]]) necessarily belongs to some nationalist cabals (something like ''Nationalists of the world, unite against Russia!''?). Apparently, only so-called Ghirlandajo and a few of his kind (like perhaps [[user:Kuban kazak]]) hold the banner of pan-humanity as opposed to evil nationalist conspiracies of the Eastern European users. I'm afraid this guy desperately needs help. [[User:Erik Jesse|E.J.]] 14:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::Oh, almost forgot - in Ghirlandajo's '[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Estophobia&oldid=144775892#Estonian_.28.22Tartu.22.29_accounts  national selection process]', [[user:Martintg]] was also cathegorised as an 'Estonian (Tartu)' account. I would not have expected one to locate [[Australia]] in [[Estonia]], but, well, after a few months in Wikipedia, not much surprises me. Everything in this world must come to an end, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Estophobia&oldid=144775892#Estonian_.28.22Tartu.22.29_accounts such manipulations] deserve a serious response. [[User:Erik Jesse|E.J.]] 15:02, 15 July 2007 
::::::: Most "Russian" and "Polish" editors active in the project live outside Russia and Poland, but that does not make them less Russian or Polish in editing. Like you and Alexia, Martin is a member of Korps! Estonia from his first edit in Wikipedia to the last one. I have seen no edits outside Estonia-Russia sphere of interest. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 15:37, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Dancers go where the music is. Theres not much to do around articles that are stable is there? And what exactly is wrong with that?--[[User:Alexia Death|Alexia Death]] 15:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

=== A group of Ukrainian editors follows me across Wikipedia ===

Oh I would love to comment on the ''avalanche effect'' of vote staking that Ghirla describes. Here is a lovely example, what began as a simple dispute on [[Podilsko-Voskresenska Line]] with one user escalated into a massive conflict involving at times me alone, against four to six nationaly concious opponents. The original theme was long lost especially after my main opponent '''withdrew''' from the [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-06-10 Podilsko-Voskresenska Line|medcab]] prematurely. Then before letting the [[WP:DR]] process take to the next step, [[Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Podilsko-Voskresenska Line|an RfM]] a [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kuban kazak|disguisting Rfc]] in my name was called up, which I refused to participate in, as the whole process, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKuban_kazak&diff=139754521&oldid=139713703 correctly predicted] by me, would be nothing but an the influx of [[User:AlexPU|nationlist]] [[User:Ukrained|degenearates]] who whined out their inferiority complexes at my previous "vicotries" over their puny attempts to push their hardcore nationalist POV into the articles. (I can provide a hundred diffs and even more on request). However what was destined to attract a scandal did not suceed (the RfC was not even on my watchlist for the whole duration), thus in a desperate attempt an arbcom (!) followed suit...although this was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration&diff=140823730&oldid=140817579 quickly withdrawn] to save face, after two arbitrators have rejected the case already. 

So what have we seen, a clear, wikistalking of all my edits and the recent AFD on Estophobia is a merit to this. After I voted to delete, a horde of keep voters arrived out of nowhere.
 
In addition I would like to state that the Ukrainian wikipedia (the same one that lists EU and NATO as part of the history of Ukraine (even though it is yet to join either of those organisations), as well as load of BS how my native Kuban is part of their Ukrainian ethnos) has an [[:uk:Вікіпедія:Ксенофобії — НІ!|official recruitment page]] for edit warriors to join "hot" topics on other wikipedias. BTW part of the dispute that I described above was discussed on Ukrainian wikipedia as well [[:uk:Обговорення користувача:Hillock65#English Wikipedia]]. --[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban Cossack]] 15:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)(UTC)

:: I have noted that these accounts, based in Ukrainian Wikipedia, rushed to the AfD page as soon as they saw your edit there. Nobody bothered to offer any arguments. This is the most disturbing part of the AfD ethnic wars and I take issue with Crum375's attempts to justify them. The bulk of responsibility for encouraging nationalist-motivated editors lies with him. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 15:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Ghirla, I have no opinion at all about any of your issues. But you cannot use [[WP:VAN|vandalism]] or [[WP:POINT]] as a tool to advance your cause. That's plain and simple. [[User:Crum375|Crum375]] 15:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::: Dear Crum375, mantra-like repetitive statements of personal opinion don't make something "acceptable" or "inacceptable", as you term it. You seem to ignore the fact that AfD is broke when it comes to nationalist bickering and canvassing. The responsibility for encouraging the ethnic cliques in their persecutions of the more moderate members of the community, like they persecute me, lies entirely with you. As I have said many times, "nationalists of all countries, unite!" - that's the only way to neutralize myself and to make Wikipedia serve their interests. As you see above, they diligently follow this advice. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 15:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

|-
|}
May I point out that [[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]] has taken a copy of the thread and moved to the AfD-s talk.--[[User:Alexia Death|Alexia Death]] 16:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:Yes, and I've removed it.  Changing the venue doesn't make this flamewar any more helpful. [[User:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; font-family: cursive ;color: #006600">Neil</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; color: #006600"><big>╦</big></span>]] 16:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
:: You should have left a link to the above discussion, lest it appears that Crum's revolting accusations of vandalism have any merit. It should be made obvious that no editor in good standing has seconded his opinion. If the thread was plagued by hysterical provocations on the part of Korps! Estonia, it also contained several helpful comments, unlike the discussion on the AfD talk page, which may be viewed as a model trollfest. And, for the record, I emphatically disagree with your advice to "let things lie". This is what I have done since May, until being subjected to the relentless witch-hunt on the part of one-purpose nationalist accounts. Wikipedia has failed to develop any checks against ethnic gangs who coordinate their activities in real life. The only answer I get is "let things lie", which is the same as "let the nationalists recruit as many bigmouths as they can, so they could bully you from Wikipedia". This attitude does not impress me at all. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirla]]<sup>[[User_talk:Ghirlandajo|-трёп-]]</sup> 07:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::: I have seconded [[User:Crum375|Crum375]]'s assessment of your behaviour. [[User:Digwuren|Digwuren]] 11:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[WP:V]] unprotected ==

This is just a heads up that [[WP:V]] is unprotected and that people might want to keep an eye on it. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|Talk]] </small> 13:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
== Budapest's one and only real name ==

Someone is writing the 'name' Buda-Pesth at the beginning of the article [[Budapest]] citing a 100-year-old 'source'. It can be misleading, because some English language users may think it is still used. That's NOT true. I don't want an edit war. Has anyone of you seen that form in the real world in the past decades? Come on, it's the capital of Hungary! [[User:Squash Racket|Squash Racket]] 18:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to believe that this 100 year-old source is misleading (the term is still used in English sometimes). Squash Racket is fueling an edit war but he/she doesn't provide reasons as to why the source is not good enough besides the fact that it is a century old. [[Historia Regum Britanniae]] and the [[Domesday Book]] are a millennium old, should we disregard them? [[User:Reginmund|Reginmund]] 21:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:When it comes to spelling ''not'' in a historical context, certainly.  Or are we going to change every ''The'' to ''Ye''?  Similarly, ''Korea'' used to be ''Corea'' - the article doesn't use it. [[User:MSJapan|MSJapan]] 22:08, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::''Ye'' was ''you'' in the formal form, not ''the''.
:::OT, but I'll correct this; see [[William Caxton]].  He used ''y'' instead of the letter ''thorn'' in printing the word ''the'', hence ''ye''. [[User:MSJapan|MSJapan]] 19:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
::But is it still in use? That would depend on which toponym. Buda-Pesth is actually still used, surprisingly. [[User:Reginmund|Reginmund]] 22:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
:See [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] [[User talk:Masamage|♫]] 22:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I am Hungarian, Reginmund is not. I've never heard that in my life, but he clamis it is still used. Exactly where? In that 100-year-old book you are citing? [[User:Squash Racket|Squash Racket]] 22:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Is that encyclopedic? Is that a RS? Yes or No. The article looks ugly w/ a protection tag. -- [[User:FayssalF|<span style="font-size:small; font-family:Verdana; color:DarkSlateBlue;">FayssalF</span>]] - <small>[[User talk:FayssalF|<sup style="background:gold;">''Wiki me up®''</sup>]]</small> 22:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

A quick Google search gives me less than 14,000 hits for "Buda-Pesth", and over 36 ''million'' for Budapest. Feel free to mention the alternate spelling, but its pretty clear which one is more common. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] [[User talk:Masamage|♫]] 23:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I've been over the source I have cited. Squash Racket still will not stubbornly accept a source because of its age. That is not an obstacle on Wikipedia. I never said that the archaic spelling was more common, I just said that it should be included as an English alternative. [[User:Reginmund|Reginmund]] 20:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

:I thought we'd reached a compromise where it was going to either be at the tail end of the paragraph, or in a separate section on the history of the name, correct? I've been off wiki for a day, I'm working on a proposed solution. If Reginmund and Squash Racket can agree not to edit war again over this until we can agree on a solution, I don't see why the page can't be un-protected. [[User:Flyguy649|Flyguy649]] [[User talk:Flyguy649|<sup>talk</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Flyguy649|<sub>contribs</sub>]] 20:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

OK with me. Only consider main article history section (archaically also (?) spelled as...) or [[Names of European cities in different languages: B|alternative names for European cities]]? Buda-Pesth is archaic and was just a variant even in these times. [[User:Squash Racket|Squash Racket]] 08:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:I would consider Pesth (and by extension Buda-Pesth) an archaism in English. It was more common in 19th century and earlier than today. I would not expect to see it in any recent scholarly works. A quick reference to the version would not be untoward somewhere in the article. A redirect (if not already created) would also be in order. [[User:Carlossuarez46|Carlossuarez46]] 23:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

== Google Web Accelerator and range blocking ==

Should I rangeblock 64.233.172.0/23, 72.14.192.0/24, and 72.14.194.0/24 based on evidence I found on this anti-Google Web Accelerator [http://fantomaster.com/fantomNews/archives/2005/05/07/fantomtip-how-to-block-google%e2%80%99s-web-accelerator-update-2/ weblog page], and if so, which options should I choose? I would choose indef blocking with disabling both registered and anonymous users' edit access. I never rangeblocked before, so I would like a review of this action before doing it instead of going ahead and causing collateral damage. I ran the WHOIS and found that these ranges belong to Google, so I don't think that this blogger is trying to trick people into blocking other ISPs. [[User:Jesse Viviano|Jesse Viviano]] 02:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

: What is the issue with this accelerator? Please clarify why a block is needed. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 02:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

::It's not too different from an open or anonymous proxy, in that anyone can use it and the real IP is masked - [[Wikipedia:Google Web Accelerator]]. (and presumably they can vandalise faster). -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 03:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Yes, they should be blocked as open proxies. [[User:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; font-family: cursive ;color: #006600">Neil</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; color: #006600"><big>╦</big></span>]] 14:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::::I've blocked them. [[User:Jesse Viviano|Jesse Viviano]] 01:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

== Request full protection for [[:Template:album cover fur]] ==

Can I request full protection for [[:Template:album cover fur]], specifically to the version [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Album_cover_fur&oldid=144615039  15:28, 14 July 2007 Jogers].

This is the template in the form it was in when it was applied in good faith in over 400 image-pages.

It is also the form intended with references to its transcluded form on [[:Image:JeffBeckWired.jpg]], the example specifically instanced in the discussion on this page [[#Arbitrary_section_break_BetaCB1|above]], and in the active current discussion at [[WT:FAIR]] also. (The template meeting broad approval in both places).

For the good of those discussions, can we freeze the template in the form it was, on which basis the comments in the discussion were made.  Otherwise reasonable discussion becomes impossible. If people want to show how they think the template could/should be modified, the way to do that is to put an alternative version on a scratch page, so we can all see both of them. But it really isn't helpful to modify the one in place, subverting the meaning of previous comments in the discussion; still less to remove it outright, as [[User:Thebainer]] seems repeatedly minded to do.

So, please, can we fully protect the template in the form it was, while policy discussions about it [[#Arbitrary_section_break_BetaCB1|here]] and at [[WT:FAIR]] are ongoing?  

Thanks,  [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] 10:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

:I think [[Wikipedia:Requests for page protection]] would be a better place to ask. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 18:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

:Okay, thanks.  I'll do that if it comes up again.  [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] 19:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

== vandal only account ==

I wish to bring to attention [[User:Tingiwingi]], who, with the exception of one self-reversion, appears to be a vandalism-only account.  In concordance with the guidelines at [[WP:AIV]], I left a level 4 warning on their [[User Talk:Tingiwingi|talkpage]], and further noted the fact I would post here regarding this issue.  

While this editor is not a prolific one, neither do they seem at all to be a benefit to the project.  Please keep an eye (or two eyes) on this user as necessary.  [[User:Baccyak4H|Baccyak4H]] ([[User talk:Baccyak4H|Yak!]]) 13:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

:Go to [[WP:AIV]] and list him under "user reported", you can give as a reason "vandalism after final warning", and an admin will block him for the appropriate period of time.  [[User:Jackaranga|Jackaranga]] 18:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

::OK.  There has been no such problems since the final (level 4) warning; if I see any in the future, I will do just that.  Thanks, [[User:Baccyak4H|Baccyak4H]] ([[User talk:Baccyak4H|Yak!]]) 19:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

== Need help with talk page move ==

<div style="margin: 1em;" class="resolved"><span style="border: 1px solid #aaa; background: #fff; padding: 6px; margin-right: .5em;">[[Image:Check_mark.svg|20px|Resolved]] [[Template:Resolved|Resolved]]</span>{{#if: {{{1|}}}|<span style="font-size: smaller;">{{{1}}}</span>}}</div>
I moved the page <b>Southwest Athletic Conference</b> to [[Southwest Conference]], but the talk page associated with the former page was not moved. The [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Movepage&action=success&oldtitle=Southwest+Athletic+Conference&newtitle=Southwest+Conference&talkmoved=articleexists move page message] I received instructed me not to copy and paste the old contents to the new talk page. I am unsure of the protocol in this situation and would like some assistance. Thanks. ~ [[User:João Do Rio|João Do Rio]] 19:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:You can't move the talk page because there was already an other page at the target. I've tagged [[Talk:Southwest Conference]] for deletion. Once it's deleted, you'll be able to move the talk page over (if it hadn't been done yet). 
:If you run into such a situation in the future, make sure the target talk page has no real content, and then place a {{tl|db-move}} tag on it. To make things easier for the admin, feel free to give the source page name as a parameter. [[User:Od Mishehu|Od]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Mishehu]] 20:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::Taken care of. '''[[User:Sasquatch|Sasquatch]]'''  [[User_talk:Sasquatch|t]]|[[Special:Contributions/Sasquatch|c]] 20:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

== [[Nevada Tan]] ==

This article about a yet-to-be-notable German band of teenagers has been speedy-deleted twice, and its creator has recreated it a third time while [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nevada_Tan&diff=145098886&oldid=145049930 stating] that he will keep recreating it if it keeps getting deleted.  Salting needed.  [[User:TedFrank|THF]] 01:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:Done. [[User:Grandmasterka|<font color="red">Grand</font>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<font color="blue">master</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<font color="green">ka</font>]] 01:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

::Another solution; don't we still have the article on a Japanese murder where the people who did it was dubbed "Nevada-tan"? If so, make it a redirect and lock it. [[User:Zscout370]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:Zscout370|(Return Fire)]]</sup></small> 03:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Made the redirect; I'll leave it in protected titles, it still works fine that way. [[User:Grandmasterka|<font color="red">Grand</font>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<font color="blue">master</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<font color="green">ka</font>]] 03:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

== Template problems in unblock requests ==

I have noticed that using templates for block reasons is causing some problems with unblock requests. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hello%2C_I%27m_Chinese&diff=144565762&oldid=142222895] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:210.8.215.218&diff=145139908&oldid=145114284]. Something needs tweaking, but what? -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 03:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
:Something would need to be done at {{tl|unblock}} and {{tl|unblock-auto}} to do "nowiki" tags. I managed to do that at the MediaWiki level, and now instead of their copying the text, they copy the MediaWiki formatting.—[[User:Ryulong|<span style="color:blue;">Ryūlóng</span>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<span style="color:gold;">竜龍</span>]]) 04:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
== Vandal encouragement ==

For a past few days, an anon editor has been adding a rant about Poland being the most homophobic country to [[Poland]]. The edit has been questioned (ex. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3APoland&diff=144997762&oldid=144621172]) and has been reverted by myself and others ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Poland&diff=144605275&oldid=144592444], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Poland&diff=144624009&oldid=144620697], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Poland&diff=144636701&oldid=144630025]). Recently he has registered as {{User|4 bity muzyki}} and continued to add his rant to articles on [[Poland]], [[Homophobia]] and [[Persecution]], despite being reverted by various users (ex. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persecution&diff=144997077&oldid=144996902]). After he has accused me of vandalizm and homophobia ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Piotrus&diff=prev&oldid=145000133], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Piotrus&diff=next&oldid=145000931]), I have warned him that such behavior (violation of [[WP:NPA]] and disruptive edits in mainspace) is a blockable offense, but he has continued his behaviour. I have blocked him for 3h following the his latest edits and PAs, but I was very surprised to find an editor who is encouraging the newcomer to keep up his disruptive ways ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A4_bity_muzyki&diff=145001808&oldid=145001328 I would advise you not to take Piotr's threats very seriously]). I would very much appreciate advice on whether I should have not warned the editor in question that his disruption and accusations are a blockable offense, and should we indeed give the newcmers impression that they can start their wiki-stay by flinging accusations of homophobia and vandalism?--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 14:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

:I would ask you not to give out warnings in languages other than English (even if the editor and you are both native-Polish), or at the very least, include a translation; how is another editor (or an administrator) supposed to know what was said if there's any other issues with the user?  Dzienki :) 

:As regards your question, I would not describe the editor's addition as a rant.  I think you are being unfair in describing it as such.  I agree it is not best placed in [[Poland]], and would be better placed in [[LGBT rights in Poland]], as Ghirla suggested to him - this is ''not'' "encouraging the newcomer to keep up his disruptive ways".  His accusing you of "vandalism and homophobia" was not appropriate, agreed.  I am ''very'' surprised that you have blocked an editor you are engaged in a content dispute with, even if it was only for 3 hours.  This seems to be a conflict of interest.  What we should do is be nicer to new users; if you had done so and pointed him in the direction of the correct article for his well-meaning initial addition, instead of reverting him and warning him via his talk page. [[User:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; font-family: cursive ;color: #006600">Neil</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; color: #006600"><big>╦</big></span>]] 14:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:: I would like to add that this user is probably a [[WP:SPA]] sock. He has good knowledge of wikisyntax and wikipedia working. He also marks all of his edits as minor to avoid being detected by antivandalists. I do not think he is a "new editor" in the true meaning of the word. [[User:Suva|Suva]] 14:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:::He may have also come from the Polish Wikipedia; knowing wikisyntax does not mean a new user is an SPA account.  Please assume good faith, Suva. [[User:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; font-family: cursive ;color: #006600">Neil</span>]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Neil|<span style="text-decoration:none; color: #006600"><big>╦</big></span>]] 14:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:::: Marking all (major) edits as minor definitely does not reflect good faith. [[User:Suva|Suva]] 14:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::Actually, it probably means that little "mark all edits as minor" box is ticked in the preferences.  AGF, once again.  [[User:Keegan|<font color="maroon">Keegan</font>]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Teke|<font color="gray">talk</font>]]</small></sup> 04:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

::Addressing issues point by point. 
::The user contacted me in Polish; I have a policy of replying in the language I am addressed as a sign of respect to the person if the issue doesn't seem involving other editors. Perhaps in that case I should have left a bilingual note, I will note that for the future.
::There was no content dispute, I have been removing a rant (violating of NPOV, V and RS), questioned by several users, that had no place in the related article - in other words, cleaning up vandalism. 
::Further, I have not blocked him for disruption - although in retrospect I should have probably waited for him to break 3RR and block him then with little controversy. I have warned the user to be civil and respect our policies; instead he continued to accuse me of 'vandalism and homophobia'. I have blocked him (for 3h) to show him that [[WP:CIVIL]]/[[WP:NPA]] are not a joke, and neither are admin warnings. I believe a block that hopefully thought him we don't encourage such behavior will stop him from flaming others in the future; note that I have not reverted his more appropriate edit to [[LGBT rights in Poland]].
::I also believe that questioning administrator's warnings, particularly on new users talk, is wrong: it encourages them to misbehave (indicating that admin's judgement can be easily (and offensively) questioning, and that our policies are not worthy of respect); instead, it should have been done either on my talk page or on this noticeboard.
::--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<span style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sub> 15:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

== Okay, so what do we have to do to get [[:Template:album cover fur]] back online? ==

So what do we have to do to get [[:Template:album cover fur]] back online?

It didn't get protected, despite my request [[#Request full protection for Template:album cover fur|above]].  The edit warring started again.  And then an admin stepped in to protect 'the wrong version'.

So, what are we supposed to do?   The template had been applied to give ''bona-fide'' rationales to over 500 images.  Rationales for which [[User:Seraphimblade]] wrote above "The [[:Image:JeffBeckWired.jpg|Jeff Beck rationale]] is indeed well done".  Rationales for which [[User:Durin]] reviewed every instance that I applied on Saturday, and pulled me up on just one.  Rationales which now transclude the message "This image has no rationale. Please delete in in 7 days".

What are we supposed to do, when the users that have done this haven't left a single comment in the discussion on the template at [[WT:FAIR]] ([[WT:FAIR#Template:Album_cover_fur|here]])?   (Where the template had been broadly welcomed).

What are we supposed to do?  Are a couple of editors allowed to steam in, blank a template like this, and then disappear again?  Is this how wikipedia is supposed to work?  What is it we are supposed to do, to get this back on-line?  [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] 22:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

:God, what a mess.  Okay.  There is good reason to believe that every image needs ''individual'' attention, which is why boilerplate FU rationales like this are not considered acceptible.  So, that's why this happened.  That said, the rationale in this template was well-written and probably applies, exactly as written, to a wide variety of images (though I would drop "or critical commentary", that (1) usually isn't the case and (2) makes it look like a generic rationale).  I think the template would be better to be simply deleted rather than marking images it is on as having no rationales: mass-marking of images for rationale issues is a problem because it makes it effectively impossible for anyone to fix those issues before the images are eligible for deletion, and we should always have a realistic opportunity to fix these problems.  (Keep in mind it's a lot more work to make rationales than to delete those images that have been tagged for 7 days without a rationale).  If someone thinks we should really mark every single one of those transclusions for deletion, be prepared to back that up by notifying the uploader of every image this template is transcluded onto, as the current wording requires.  [[User:Mangojuice|Mango]][[Special:Contributions/Mangojuice|<span style="color:orange">'''juice'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Mangojuice|talk]]</sup> 23:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::I agree blanking or deleting the template would be best here. &ndash; [[User:Steel359|Steel]] 23:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:::I think we really can't leave this in a state that implies the images on which this is transcluded should be deleted.  Personally, I prefer blanking the template so that no damage is done (ie, adding the template to images will not cause those images to be deleted): if deletion is warranted, there's no reason not to go through [[WP:TFD]].  If any other admins agree, I'd say we should just blank the page.  [[User:Mangojuice|Mango]][[Special:Contributions/Mangojuice|<span style="color:orange">'''juice'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Mangojuice|talk]]</sup> 23:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::The template goes well beyond a boilerplate rationale.  It is a superset that uses all of the fields of [[Template:Non-free media rationale]], and then some.  However, I acknowledge that it could use some improvement.  The problem is that image tagging and deletions continue at a rapid pace with automated tools for deletion, and no coherent plans to help fix the images instead of deleting them, as the Wikimedia resolution and our own guidelines urge.  If we can get people to hold off on deleting the images for a week, why don't we deprecate the template and tell people not to use it until we have a more robust template that people can agree on?  For people who categorically reject use of templates in rationales, I have nothing to say and they can eventually provoke a show-down.  The current policy is that you must produce a fair use rationale that is specific to each use, not that you have to type out every character on the keyboard with your fingers.  There is no such prohibition for now and indeed [[Template:Non-free media rationale]] is in wide use, appearing on nearly 20,000 images. [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 00:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
:As a disinterested party in this issue, I fail to see why boilerplate language that should be almost the same for a set of images shouldn't be supplied by a template, with the parts that need to be individual supplied as required parameters. Can someone please provide me with a rationale for banning templates in this context, or a pointer to a discussion where such a rational is provided? Because without an explanation, it's easy to jump to the conclusion that the only purpose for such a ban is to make life difficult for other Wikipedia editors. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] 23:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
::Without getting into it too much, it has been brought up (I think by [[User:David Gerard]]? not sure) that fair use is a ''defense.''  It arises out of case law, not statutes, and is a way in which people may be excused from violating copyright, so since it's a defense, someone needs to participate in that actively.  Personally, I wouldn't mind if the mundane crap was all in a template, all the stuff about the source (when predictable), the portion used, the competition, that Wikipedia is non-profit and educational, et cetera.  We should just be careful to specify the particular reasons for the use of each image in each article.  Even that can be boilerplated, it just had better be (1) specific enough to pin down ''exactly'' the reasons for use of an image in an article, and (2) applied only in cases where that explanation is correct.  [[User:Mangojuice|Mango]][[Special:Contributions/Mangojuice|<span style="color:orange">'''juice'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Mangojuice|talk]]</sup> 23:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
:::Fair use originated as a common law principle but it is written into the US copyright code.  Calling it a "defense" is simply a technical  distinction.  However you want to conceive it, fair use is not copyright infringement.  The problem arises is when people make the false distinction in order to argue that every fair use requires an affirmative act of justification in order to be legal, which is simply not the case.  Anybody who attaches a fair use argument to an image use, templated or not, bears the responsibility of making sure their words are true.  Absent the template people will cut and paste, and absent cutting and pasting they will write from the top of their heads or simply copy verbiage from somewhere else without the cut-and-paste functions.  However you cut it, it is their responsibility to make sure the words are true, fit the situation, and offer a complete rationale.  The templates give them a much better success rate at all three.  
:::I spent a couple hours last week reviewing a bunch of fair use rationales and among the few that are out there, very few of them are cogent or sufficient.  The success rate is about the same when people do it freehand versus using [[Template:Non-free media rationale]], I would say about one in four.  People adding rationales after getting a deletion tag are much better, I would say about 50/50.  The new template increases that to perhaps 95-99% and, what's better, gives a good system for identifying, reviewing, fixing, and otherwise handling images after a rationale is added.  Parameters that can be organized, such as name of label and artist in the case of album cover art, should be.  Wikimedia Foundation tells us we should make things machine readable.  Freehand rationales are unworkable for any automated system to sort through, either on Wikipedia or some downstream user who wants to decide what images they can use. [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 00:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:You're quite right; boilerplate rationales are unacceptable.  However, most of the templates WikiDemo has been working on are not boilerplate; they're specific templates which guide and direct the necessary information for an appropriate rationale.  It looks like, from the above, that they could still use some tweaking, but there's definitely nothing inherently wrong with the idea, in my mind.  --[[User:Haemo|Haemo]] 00:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Since [[Template:Album cover fur]] has been protected and added with a no rationale deletion tag, I'm going to go through all of these images tagged with the boilerplate rationale to make sure they are either:
#Reverted back to the previous rationale that was specifically written for it..
#Add a proper rationale for each one and seek out articles it's not being used properly on..
#And make sure every image is within the 300px range, as fair use states it needs low resolution. You would be surprised how many people actually say something is low resolution and have gigantic images 800px by 800px.. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#FF0000;">M</span><span style="color:#EE0000;">o</span><span style="color:#DD0000;">e</span>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#0000FF;">ε</span>]] 00:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
:Wow, that's a lot of work!  Would you mind keeping a tall or log so we can tell the ratio of use to misuse, and also the various kinds of inappropriate use?  Are you going to shrink the images somehow in the image file or just the template?  I'm curious to know what if any policy we have for that, either for the image upload or for the use.  I have seen some discussion but no policy.  If there is something specific then of course the successor template could ask for that specifically.  And if you find a tool or method to add competent rationales as quickly as the template, please share.  The point isn't a template for the sake of having a template, but a way to do these rationales reliably and efficiently.  Tks.  [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 00:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
::It's less that 450 images, so it's not a lot, I'll get to it seriously in a couple of hours or so. If I "shrink" an image, I am just taking the large image, put it on 300px, hitting preview, copy and pasting it to my clipboard, and re-uploading to Wikipedia as a low resolution image, it's not hard. See [[:Image:NirvanaNevermindalbumcover.jpg]], which is tagged correctly, or go to [[WP:FURG]] and look at some examples of written ones. It's not as quick as adding a template, but you won't get bitched at. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#FF0000;">M</span><span style="color:#EE0000;">o</span><span style="color:#DD0000;">e</span>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#0000FF;">ε</span>]] 00:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
:::450 at a time?  You must have fast fingers.  The main point of the template is to help people go through these things quickly and effectively, so if you have a better system it could obviate the need.  I see some interesting issues already with Nevermind.  There are four uses, all squeezed into the same template instead of a separate rationale.  Also, the existing template encourages people to simply say "yes" for low resolution without giving an argument as to why the resolution is okay.  It is all implicit in setting that parameter to "yes."  "Not possible; unique piece of art." is a shorthand rather than a full reason for why the image is not replaceable by a free use equivalent.  The "source", listed as http://www.geffen.com/nirvana/, does not actually assert that is where the image came from.  If you look at that page, the image is not there.  Maybe it is somewhere on the site.  If you look at all that in total, other than being not quite finished [[Template:Album cover fur]] is being blamed for the very things that [[Template:fair use rationale]] is approved for.  Incidentally, for some reason the album cover is mistakenly attributed to the band [[HIM]].  [[User:Wikidemo|Wikidemo]] 01:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
::::Wikidemo, people have to fill out parts of [[Template:fair use rationale]]. [[Template:Album cover fur]] is ''not'' the same thing. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 02:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
::::450 at a time, not quiet, maybe 450 in some time period, yes. [[Template:fair use rationale]] has links to what low resolution and what a replaceable free use equivalent means, so they can figure it out for themselves. The source could be better, and I will find the exact one later, just that was the one given by the uploader, I'll get an exact location of it if possible (sometimes images don't have exact links on site and are only findable if you start roaming the site, just for thought). We can't control if people will abuse the template or not, and it's safe to say that your template could be more easily abused than the standard fair use rationale template with empty spaces to fill the blanks. Thanks for pointing out that mistake I made, I have corrected it. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#FF0000;">M</span><span style="color:#EE0000;">o</span><span style="color:#DD0000;">e</span>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#0000FF;">ε</span>]] 03:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Protecting a page is meant to make it easier to work out a compromise on it, that does not seem to be happening here. I don't see support above for keeping the page protected in its current version so I'm unprotecting. [[User:Haukurth|Haukur]] 00:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

This really kinda blows; I thought we were finally getting some traction on putting proper rationales for cover art in music album articles, and all of a sudden right in the middle of doing one I had to spend several minutes puzzling over how the hell a "this will be deleted" template is popping up  where it shouldn't be, only to go off and finally figure out that the new FUR template got shanghaied.

I'll concede (for now) grudgingly that cover art in discographies isn't going to fly, and that the FUR template should not be used for those, but I see no legit reason to hose it for album infoboxes. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] 00:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

* Other than the fact that such use is predominantly decorative, and thus not actually fair use, of course. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 06:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:* [[WP:FAIR]] gives the following guideline on appropriate use for cover art:  
:::"Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)".   
::There is a proposal, which has broad support at [[WT:FAIR]], to re-word this more transparently, to read 
:::"Cover art: Cover art for items, when used to identify the items in question in articles or major article sections about the items (i.e. the article or section must contain significant commentary in prose form about the item identified by the image).
::So identification in this context ''is'' considered a valid use.  [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] 10:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Update: the template has now been modified [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Album_cover_fur&oldid=145193179], so that it no longer appears to give a generic rationale if the use is not specified.  [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] 10:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

:There is also a possibility to put all the images using the template without the "use" parameter specified to a maintenance category in order to fix their rationales. I strongly disagree with the argument that the template should be banned because it's boilerplate. The possibilities of different usages of album covers in articles are limited and there can't be a unique rationale for each image. It's better to use the template with several options that produces a well-written rationale than copy and paste some generic one. [[User:Jogers|Jogers]] ([[User_talk:Jogers|talk]]) 13:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)