User talk:Paul Siebert

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Welcome! Hello, Paul Siebert, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! Arnoutf (talk) 20:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

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		Awarded for your great contributions in the discussions of various articles discussing genocides and mass killings. Awarded by Cdjp1 on 25 August 2021

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Communism, mass killing, and Wikipedia

I just wanted to thank you again for your great work and comments. I went back to the Archives just for them, and I found that those where you summarize scholarly literature and consensus, or lack thereof, would actually be good to use and an improvement for Communist-related articles. More recently, from your comments about revolutions to Communism and genocide, to the generic communism concept (I distinctly remember a related comment of yours where you said scholars do not really criticism communism as a philosophy or clearly distinguish it from Communist state; I really wish I could remember or find it) This peer-review is still relevant and current, and Karlsson and Schoenhals (2008) is the kind of source we need for such article, not Rummell or misinterpretations of Valentino, though I also agree with your criticism ("I generally support this proposal, although I am not sure that Karlsson and Schoenhals directly address the topic") and your analysis in general, especially "K & S characterised some sources, which are extremely popular among some fraction of Wikipedians (Rummel's non-peer-reviewed writings, the BB, some pro-Communist books) as fringe, and that is in a full accordance with the opinion of other serious scholars." If only most of your comments, which are backed by reliable sources and a simply a summary of them, would be more prominent in Communist-related article through, of course, paraphrasing, proper wording, and in respect of our policies and guidelines, or even just explained or put up as a note, much misinformation and misunderstanding, which is reflected in many Communist-related article and relative talk page, could be reduced. Indeed, I myself was guilty for such monolithic and generalized understanding of Communism.

This latest quote of your from there is particularly interesting and relevant because it explains why that article and many Communist-related articles reflect more those sources than academic literature. It is exactly because such sources are "extremely popular among some fraction of Wikipedians" that the controversial article is defended; it was, and in a way still is, a reflecting of how badly written and referenced are many Communist-related articles. Instead of relying on scholarly literature, they rely on many sources used for that article (Courtois, Gray, Rummel) and popularly-press sources (Applebaum, Montefiore), or sources are used selectively or misrepresented. Soviet-related articles rely too much on Applebaum, Conquest, Pipes, Service, and in general from anti-communist or orthodox historiography and totalitarian model rather than historians like Sarah Davies, Fitzpatrick, Getty, Wheatcroft, and the like, who are mainly used in reference to the archives estimates, when they could beused as more neutral sources for key and uncontroversial facts, or specialists and country experts (Ellmann, Snyder). Likewise, Chinese-related article rely too much on that same side (Dikötter, Jung, Yang) rather than country specialists, and so on and on, you get the point; Courtois et al. are treated as the majority and mainstream view, when it seems to be that the reverse is true, or that if equally reliable, the more neutral source is to be preferred, and in most cases it is not from the anti-communist side (pro-Communist side is fringe).

In general, such articles are treated like, or reflect, a monolith, and do not properly explain that "Communist regimes are poorly connected to each other"; instead, they are too generalized use, due to the use of acceptable but subpar sources, and in general reflect a popular press POV rather than the academic press and consensus, which in turn lead many Wikipedians to see them as a monolithic. Therefore, I think it would be a good thing to paraphrase your comments, which I assume are verified and backed not just by any reliable source but by academic ones, to provide more context and improvement for Communist-related articles. I am especially interested in the scholarly Communist literature (mainstream, revisionism, fringe, majority, minority, and the like), and I wish there was a scientific review that summarized this, and that such an article could be created on Wikipedia and used as a general reference, and an improvement tool, for all Communist-related articles (i.e. if a scholar is not deemed relevant to be there, it should not be cited in Communist-related article, or as a summary for the interpretations of the events, which would then be improved to reflect this, and so on).

This is all the more reason why I really hope Mass killings under communist regimes is rewritten according to your proposals and solutions; I am really curious about how it would look like and read. I understand that this would require much work but I think that it would be worth it, and I understand if you do not have the time to do that; you can still help by providing a general list of references from which came many of your insightful comment, or provide me a list of scholarly Communist literature, and I could try to paraphrase and add them. In a way, thanks to your comments, I already did that for Benjamin Valentino, Communism, Genocide studies, and Mass killing.

Insightful quotes of yours

Quotes

1. However, if you read any source from this list, and the sources presented there are pretty good quality secondary sources, you may see that most of them agree that violence is a necessary component of most revolutions. In addition, the most deadly "Communist mass killings" (as defined by Valentino) took place long after revolutions, and, therefore, it is not clear what relation between the Finlay's notion about revolutionary violence and Valentino's "mass killings" that happened many years after Russian or Chinese revolution. Conclusion: the source was misused to create a false impression the author draws a linkage between mass killings and Communist ideology, whereas it confirms that Marx was advocating revolutionary violence (the same thing that other, non-Marxist revolutionaries did). Remove.
2. Again, I see nothing unusual in Marxist attitude to revolutionary violence. In XIX-early XX century, most revolutionaries supported violence, and that was not a specific trait of Marxists. The problem is that majority of the events that article is discussing took place long after socialist revolutions, so it is hard to tell how Marx's or Lenin's views of revolutionary violence are related to post-revolutionary events.
3. Second, Red Terror or Kronshtadt rebellion are the Civil war events, they fall under a "revolutionary violence" category. Meanwhile, this article discuss much broader range of events, and the most deadly events are separated from the revolution by more than 10-20 years period. How these events are connected with Lenin's "State and Revolution"? It follows from S&R letter and spirit that Lenin believed no state would exist in such a "distant future", and no state violence would be possible at all
4. Thus, a famous Marx words about liquidation of bourgeois as a class were interpreted by some later leaders as "physical extermination of them", which is a total nonsense and directly contradicts to the spirit of Marxism: for Marx, membership in some class means involvement in a certain type of economic relationships, and not as some biological trait, so if, e.g. a bourgeois becomes deprived of their assets, they cannot act as a capitalists any more, which means they stopped to be capitalists. In that sense, "liquidation" meant "deprivation of all capitalist possessions"
5. You refer to Marxism as a quasireligious concept. Yes, to many people it was a kind of religion. However, the same can be said about many other things. Thus, science in general became a religion for many people in XIX-XX centuries. That is a legacy of Enlightenment, whose latest reincarnation Communism was. Many, many people expected too much from science, and many of them believed in it in a religious manner. Hence a disappointment, which we are witnessing now. That is normal
6. Nazism was killing people by their biological traits - Stalinism was intrinsically non-genocidal (I recall I saw one source that explicitly said Marxist ideology was a restraining factor that didn't allow Stalin to unleash a true genocide; you also may read "Affirmative action empire" a broadly cited book. Finally, genocidal activity of Nazism was quickly stopped (mostly thanks to Stalinism)', so we don't know the actual scale of potential Nazi mass murders, whereas the murderous potential of Stalinism had its natural limit

Those are just the most recent but there are so many even from years ago.

Quotes

1. The literature available to me tells that different Communist regimes are poorly connected to each other, so the authors who study them pay more attention to historical aspects and other factors to describe the events there. For example, many authors prefer to describe North Korean regime as neo-Confutian rather than Communist. The monographs about Cambodian Genocide outline at least two other factors (in addition to ultra-Maoist ideology) that caused killings: extreme Khmer nationalism (Khmers were desperately poor and rural, ethnic Vietnamese and Chinese were much more wealthy and urban, and Khmer's revenge tradition
2. Regarding African countries, the difference should be made between the regimes that conducted Communist transformations and the regimes that just nominally declared it to obtain Soviet help

I am also curious about your latest response. As much as I appreciate them, I think you are arguing against a wall, and nothing is going to change their mind about it; they do not even admit that "[your] arguments have much more solid ground ... [that they] made a mistake, and join a discussion about possible ways to fix it." They do not say anything new and insist of their interpretation of Valentino, which is based on their own reading as a primary source rather than secondary and tertiary sources as you did in line with our policies and guidelines, but I look forward to your response on their latest comment, especially in regard to their game of telephone argument. Davide King (talk) 14:18, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism

Here, I just added this: The totalitarian perspective of equating Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union under Stalin is not conceivable and is a misunderstanding of the two distinct natures of the regimes, which is why they were enemies. Stalin's main goal was to create a socialist state, under the banner of socialism in one country, that was autarkic, industrialized, and multiethnic. Genocide was not in Stalin's plans, rather nationalism and nation-building were, and it was not inherent in the building of a non-capitalist, non-expansionary state. (The Oxford Handbook of European History, 1914–1945, p. 378) This just proves that you are right about your comments on Marxism, Stalinism, and genocide but unfortunately Wikipedian articles do not reflect this. Nowhere do we state that Stalinism "was intrinsically non-genocidal", even though it is reported in a good tertiary source like The Oxford Handbook; the mere fact we do not say or clarify that just leads most users to think that it was, so Marxism was also genocidical, and MKuCR is totally correct.

Speaking of that article, I think it would be better if it were moved to Comparative analysis of Nazism and Stalinism because the topic should not be a comparison, which gives more weight to similarities, but a true comparative analysis that gives weight to differences and similarities according to their weight in sources, how accepted the comparative analysis is, etc. I think the current article has several problems that I wish you could help solve:

1. It gives too much weight to similarities than differences, and it is written as if the main topic is only highlighting the similarities, with the differences either reduced as minorities or as criticism rather than just as weighty, if not more, and part of the comparative analysis process.
2. We need secondary and tertiary sources for what Arendt et al. said and thought. Arendt et al. are perfectly fine for key facts, like the Nazis did this, on Day 10 the Soviet did that, etc. but we need secondary and tertiary sources for their thoughts:

• to make sure that we are not misrepresenting them, as is done for Valentino
• to make sure that we do not too much weight to cherry picked part of their works, and not enough weight to others
• or we should have at least a seondary/tertiary source for each other that can help us for summary and weight but currently they are only sourced to the authors thesmelves alone

1. It has a similar problem with MKuCR in that it is written from the POV of those who support the comparative analysis, which in turn lead us to highlight the similarities. Did really Arendt only discussed the similarities? So we have Arendt, Brzezinski, and Friedrich only discussing the similarities, while all the others discuss both. Brzezinski, and Friedrich in particular discuss totalitarianism more than anything, and especially "Totalitarian systems and autocracies" and "Five pillars of totalitarian systems" looks like they would better suit Totalitarianism than that article.
2. I also agree with your comment that "[w]hen historians use the word 'Stalinism' they always mean the regime. When historians write about Nazism, they may mean the Hitler's regime or the ideology he created. This should be properly explained in the article, probably, in a separate section.

I think this comment of yours is still relevant, and I wonder if you still think this, if the article is better or worse since then, etc.

I am not sure if the question I am going to rise has been asked before, but don't you think we need to define the subject of the article first? The title is ambiguous: it may mean (i) a discussion of different attempts to compare Stalinism and Nazism (i.e. why, with what purpose, and when were these attempts undertaken), or (ii) a discussion if differences and commonalities between these two regimes. Both topics are notable and deserve separate articles. They can [be] combined in a single article, but for that, the article should be properly structured.

In general, I am not sure whether your aforementioned comment is still accurate, or the article still has the right structure and properly reflects the literature; this is why I always prefer that we use secondary/tertiary sources independent of the authors when we discuss their views and interpretations, for the risk that we misinterpreted them, or engage in original research and synthesis, is much higher. I am also simply curious about what a version of yours would look like. Davide King (talk) 09:34, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism (and Communism in general) is a narrative, not a collection of facts. Therefore, it is necessary to put it into a proper context, concretely:

1. Who proposed to compare them?

2. When (in what historical context)

3. Why (what concrete idea conveyed by that)?

4. Who are stressing similarities and who points at differences?

By the way, Rosefielde's main point is that Communism in general (although he focuses mostly on Stalinism) is less genocidal, and that is a key distinction from Nazism.

I have no time to work on that article, but it is in my "to do" list.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:22, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I was just about to write you only a new section for your latest comments and the whole dispute, and I was very happy to find out you did reply me to this. The "is a narrative, not a collection of facts" wording is perfect (you always find the perfect way to express what I think) is the perfect summary of it). I really wish you have many more articles on your watchlist because your help, knowledge, neutrality, reading of our policies is desperatily needed but I agree the MKuCR should be your priority, and right after the comparison between Nazism and Stalinism. About Rosefielde, wow... so we have yet another scholar who is misunderstood and does not hold extreme views as some users appear him to hold. I believe that Rosefielde also wrote about excess mortality in 'democratic'-capitalist Russia; I wonder why only his views about Communism are highlighted... (sarcasm). Finally, I wish I could have conversation with you about Communism, Nazism, totalitarianism, and many other topics, either here or wherever, because I want to know more about them, in particular the views and consensus of scholars (mainstream, majority, minority, fringe, etc.), which is something that you are amazingly good to individuate. I would really like to read the source about Rosefielde's main point, so I can try to improve his article and provide an accurate and neutral picture like I did for Valentino, again especially thanks to you. Davide King (talk) 21:31, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

"Stalin, etc."

In regards to this, it makes more sense now. To be fair, I believe that I did use too some sarcasm to the false accusations, and more recently ("Can you at least understand [mine and Siebert's point] and realize that I am not some Soviet agent provocateur?"), because that was really too much. Trust me, in real life I am much calmer and more like you when discussing, which is why I really appreciate you, but this whole thing... it is something different. I truly appreciate your patience and good faith, so please do not stop your amazing work, even if just on a talk page; however, I have to agree with TFD in that users do not even understand the topic and have no academic knowledge (I know that because I was one too but thanks to TFD's and your comments, I did my research and I feel much more knowledgeable enough to discuss it than ever before). Nonetheless, I feel like I belong to the political centre in this; pessimist like TFD but still hoping that eventually rationality and policies will win, like you do, over POV-pushing and lack of knowledge.

In regards to this, it was again a perfect summary of the dispute, I just would like to clarify one thing. I was not actually aware of the totalitarian state part in the resolution because I did not actually read it, and find out about it, until you kindly provided the translated quote. I simply thought that it had nothing to do with the topic, and The New York Times only emphasized Stalin's part, so my main fault was not having been as meticulous as you; again, thanks to you, I have improved my reading of our policies and become more strict.

I still think that it does not have anything to do with MKuCR (it belongs to the massace's main article), even if sourced to The New York Times or your scholarly sources because they do not discuss the topic, but the previous wording was at least better. Again, may I remind you look at this? In particular the final two comments I made there, and whether I got the country-specialist dispute correct because if you support their additions, AmateurEditor have no excuse, since we do already discuss many resolutions from EU, Latvia, Russia, etc. which have nothing to do with MKuCR and everything to do with single events, so why not use country specialists? Perhaps, and I may make a bold, sarcastic prediction, because that would completely show that you are 100% correct on this and the article violates NPOV, among many others? Wink wink

Davide King (talk) 21:31, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Mkucr status

Paul, is there anything in particular you would like me to respond to, other than your comment here? I am thinking of starting a new talk page section with excerpts from sources so we can all have the same basis for our discussions going forward. AmateurEditor (talk) 15:33, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

If you agree with the option 1, then the whole article should be rewritten. The reason is very simple: if we are writing about the events, we should reflect what majority sources say about the events. Rummel doesn't say much about events, Valentino doesn't say about events, Courtois doesn't say about events - all of that just interpretations. Majority of good sources say about individual events and about individual countries, and we must follow what they say.

I propose to start with "Causes", as soon as we started discussing it. The new scheme should be as follows:

• USSR

• Red Terror

• Great Purge
• Great famine

• China

• Civil war

• Great Leap forward famine

• Cultural revolution

• Cambodia

• (...)

• Attempts to propose general causes

• Role of ideology

• Leader's personality

• (...)

Of course, the scheme is tentative, and the details are a subject of discussion.

Later, other sections should be rewritten according to the same scheme.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:15, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

But the article is primarily about the events collectively, not the events individually. Individual events are subtopics which have subsections. Per policy, ALL sources about the (aggregation) topic should be neutrally included, but this proposal of yours just looks like a scheme to delete most of the article and all of the aggregator sources. That causes an insurmountable synthesis problem. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:53, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

That is ok if the collective description of the events is consistent with their description in individual sources. However, as we can see, that is not the case in this topic. If the description of some event is different in different sources, we must represent a majority view first. It is easy to see that, for example, majority sources about the Great Chinese famine describe its causes quite differently than Valentino or Rummel (and even do not call it "mass killing"). We must follow what majority sources say about that, because we all achieved a consensus that the events, and not the way the events are being described is the article's subject.

Please, do not restart this discussion again, because all those arguments had been already presented (and debunked).--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:31, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You know very well that the famines are disputed cases of mass killing. The other events are not. Terms vary; you are attacking a straw man if you are saying a majority of individual event sources use terms other than "mass killing" to refer to the non-famine events. And I suggested moving the famine details to the "Debate over famines" section and you ignored it. Instead, you just keep repeating your google search proposal. It is original research to determine majority views by counting sources. That is not what WP:WEIGHT says at all: "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;" In other words, a tertiary source. Tertiary sources are not required for articles, and in the absence of them we present all significant minority views/non-fringe views from reliable secondary sources neutrally, per WP:RS/AC. Your proposal to use search results is specifically warned against at Wikipedia:Search engine test, specifically at WP:HITS: "A raw hit count should never be relied upon to prove notability."AmateurEditor (talk) 19:50, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Famine are responsible for lion's share of deaths under Communists, and even if only this category is not considered as mass killings by majority sources (which is an absolute truth), that immediately makes the statement that MKuCR scale was 85+ million a minority if not fringe view. But it is not represented as such in this article. I am giving you just one example, and that is by no means straw man. I can give a lot more examples when some individual statements are interpreted in such a way that the look much broader than what the authors say in reality. However, all of that are minor details. If the article is about the events, let's describe events using ALL sources, not only those that group them in a some specific way. This is a direct violation of NPOV and NOR--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:04, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

However, if you believe that the focus is the collective description, that means the topic is a narrative. I personally do not mind that approach, but the talk page consensus is against that. Therefore, stop pushing that idea, please.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:06, 11 September 2021 (UTC)