Talk:Armenian genocide

Archives
Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm|^(talk) 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

Fadix Analysis: This section exist to answer Torque claims and is kept up to date (new materials posted as well as new answers). (VERY LONG PAGE) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14.

Can someone merge the archives? They all are excessively large.

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Torque was ranting about Armenian people as there is a "Diplomatic" sphere in the equation, The countries that have officialy recognised the Armenian genocide did not recognise on their own, they got significant pressure for various organisations. He is refering to that I believe. His attitude is not nice, but neither the attitude he argues with. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 09:11, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fresh Start

I want to ignore what happened so far, for your sake. Lets start argueing again, and yes please summerise. I will be introducing this format (I copy pasted my default "mediation" template). I am not a mediator as Fadix will not accept it. If I refer to myself in the format I inserted below as a mediator know that it is part of the template. I am too lazy ro create a new one.

Discussion Starts

I suggest no one touch the article now on untill we reach concensiuses, while being bold sounds fun, we will end up with nothing productive if you guys and us start reverting. I already declared 2 cases, I commented out items that we will be discussing, nothing is gone just commented, You are welcome to comment out anything and discuss here as well. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 08:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Your suggestions are ignored. Fadix 00:15, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Scholars to be moved away from lead

Most Armenian and Western and some Turkish scholars believe that the Armenian deaths were the result of a state-sponsored extermination plan. Most Turkish and some Western scholars, on the other hand, claim that a clash between the two-sides, and causes such as famine and disease, was the reason why a number of Armenians perished. The statistics regarding how many Armenians perished varies and there are no official numbers, but most Western sources advance a million and over [...] What is refered as the Armenian Genocide is the second most studied cases of what is called genocide and is often compared with the Holocaust.

• Not lead material, article should not start with conclusions, there is no point in having this article if the lead statement establishes that "genocide is commonly believed as happened" --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 08:36, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• <blink>It is a fact that genocide is commonly believed to have occurred.</blink> The article should, and I'm sure will, state this clearly. Davenbelle 18:19, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
• Do not reformat my comments; I do not write in green. — Davenbelle 19:11, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

• You cant read either, the color format is discussed above--Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:23, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• That is still not lead material. This is a disputed article, It can be mentioned later in the article. What you are suggesting is against NPOV. I am not sure how widely its accepted, not as widely as article suggests, lets simplify a bit, lets say that there are 20 scholars on the planet. 2 are against 4 are for genocide, there still is 14, more than 50% that does not care either way around, or dispute it personaly but does not have the need/time to make his case. Its very difficult to challenge a genocide thesis. For our case for this article we agree lots (over 200,000) people died. We agree they were forced to move, the dispute revolves around why. I repeat, the classification of Armenian Genocide as a fact is against NPOV. Please refrain from "I am right you are wrong" and use other more productive methods to communicate as mentioned above. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 18:40, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• For each Western scholar that deny the genocide, there probably are hundreds agreeing there was a genocide. Your comparaison is senseless. The 69 signature Torque has presented ended up being nothing more than full of air. Because several of them recognized the genocide was a historical fact, but signed it because they thought it was a petition to support the opening of the archives, like those starting the petition have claimed and not as a tool to deny the genocide. You have nothing NADA other than Justin McCarthy and few ARIT and ITS scholars. There is an Italian physicist that believe that at the center of the Sun, the temperature is absolute zero... why not talking about it in the Sun entry? Fadix 00:29, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Camps, death toll info be moved.

While the total number of victims that perished in all camps is hard to establish, it is by some sources estimated that close to a million would be a reasonable figure. This figure excludes Armenians who died in other ways, but may include the Special organizations participation in the events; the majority of the excluded losses are recorded in Bitlis and Sivas.

• Like I said before, extra statistics while they are disputed is not a good idea. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 08:36, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Death Toll Category

• Death toll is referanced multiple times, a and only 1 section should be devoted to this material, scholars statistics also falls under this category in my opinion. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 18:43, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• You were the one that deleted the death tole category, and you want it back now. I am preparing two entries, one regarding the Ottoman Armenian population, and another the death toll. Fadix 00:19, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Yes I want all death statistics in one category. Also I want you to stop the "I know best" tone. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:19, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Relocation Camps vs. Concentration Camps

The Ottoman Empire had set up a recorded twenty-five to twenty-six of what is often reffered as "relocation camps or "concentration camps": (Deir-Zor, Ras Ul-Ain, Bonzanti, Mamoura, Intili, Islahiye, Radjo, Katma, Karlik, Azaz, Akhterim, Mounboudji, Bab, Tefridje, Lale, Meskene, Sebil, Dipsi, Abouharar, Hamam, Sebka, Marat, Souvar, Hama, Homs and Kahdem), under the command of Çukru Kaya, one of the right hands of Talaat Pasha.

The majority of of the camps were situated mostly near the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers, and some was only temporary transit camps. After reports of deaths, the camps Lale, Tefridje, Dipsi, While Del-El, and Ras Ul-Ain were built specifically for those who had a life expectancy of a few days. Other camps were only used as temporary mass burial zones (Radjo, Katma, and Azaz) and were closed by Fall 1915.

The majority of the guards inside all the camps were Armenians.

Even though nearly all the camps (all major ones were) were open air, according to records, some were not. Other camps existed, accoding to the Military court, there where irregular Red Crescent camps that were used to kill by morphine injection, (two of Saib (Health inspector) colleagues, Drs. Ragib and Vehib testified during the court) and where the bodies were thrown into the Black sea. In other instances, according to records, there were some small-scale killing and burning camps, where the Armenian population was told to present itself in a given area, and burned en mass. Other records from the Military tribunal, suggest gassing installations existed as well. For instance, during the Military tribunal, testimonies in the effect that Dr. Saib and Nail, an Ittihadist deputy, were heading two school buildings used as child extermination camps. Both Saib and Nail were allegedly in charge of providing the list of children who were to be distributed among the Muslim populace; the rest of the children were to be sent to the mezzanine floor to be killed by a mass gassing installation. The Children were sent there under the pretext to take baths, but were poisoned instead.

• Diferent parties refer to the camps diferently. Section should be rewriten in such a way that it neither proves they are indeed concentration camps nor should it appear as relocation camps.--Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 18:44, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Different parties don't name it differently, you name it differently. It was called such, and should be called such, the word "relocation camp" has never been used once to call those camps, you can not just throw words that you like. Fadix 00:17, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is no discussion starting with Coolcat

Coolcat, I will be reverting every edits you make, you are a vandalist of articles, you are ignored. - Unsigned fadix

You cannot kick me out of the discussion, you have no authority, right, power. You reverted spelling fixes, Continue abusing revert power, I dare ya. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:17, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)