Talk:March Days

Factually disputed

You can not start an article based on one man work and suggest it is enough notable to have it's article. And you have simply copypasted the source of McCarthy from a nationalist site. I happen to have read all the books writen by Justin McCarthy, those figures he present are not his calculations neither his figure, he simply refers to Urguhart's figure of 8,000 to 12,000(see his footnote) who was so quick to press the British army out from the region and an eye over the oil fields in Baku, the British version of what the Chestler consession was for the Americans under Bristol. In fact, he mairly recycled Kazemzadeh's estimates, who ironically enought refers to the Armenian commission on 9,000 Armenians having been killed in Baku, which he justified by throwing numbers. Such high figures have NEVER been presented or documented other than the product of Kazemzadeh imagination trying to justify the 9,000 Armenians killed he report in his book. The Armenian massacre of fall 1918 is recorded in various works, the German General Paraquin present reports on what happened there and the plan set the eradicate the Armenian population once the Ottoman troops penetrate Baku. Frederick Lewis Schuman in his work provides the figure of 30,000 Armenians having been killed there as a result. I could write various articles just about this subject which is very well documented. Besides this, the commission reported by the British Consul Stevens doesn't present more than 2,000 Azeris victims in March, 1918. As for 3,000 Jews being killed in Guba by Armenians. Articles are written based on published data, not some poops from a psychotic who use terms like 'monster,' and this a leading figure of the Academia of science, he should learn statistics, he would be hard pressed to wipe himself off if it happens that someone having taken some high school math course realise that numbers don't add when one take into account the 6,000 immigrated Jews in Guba over a century prior to the supposed genocide in Question and the post-period population, this enought would discredit him to the core. What article will be next, The Massacre of Marsians by Armenians? Fad (ix) 23:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Fadix - a question, do you deny the massacre of Muslims by Bolsheviks and Allied Dashnaks that occured in March 1918, or you just dispute figures quoted? abdulnr 20:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I am not denying it, first March massacre isen't a proper Wikipedian name, second of, given that the massacre of Armenians in Baku is more notable in 1918, and that the number of victims was higher even according to the investigation initiated by Tartars there is no way that this article can be neutral when it is missing an entire section. German and Austrian records are abound of the massacres of Armenians and what happened when Nuri, Halil, and others have decided to take in command a Tartar army and organize it. As for Guba, there is no single record of Jews having been killed there by Armenians, the numbers don't add up, and it isen't recorded. Those figures are higher than the official investigation made public of the number of Muslims killed in Baku but yet there is not a single record about that. This is my first accounter with Baku87, but I hope this sort of contribution of his is not generalized. Fad (ix) 22:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Its written as Muslim but they mean Azeris as Azeris are the only major Muslim group in the Caucasian. Also this is not a one man view, if you want to deny this then fine, thats your opinion. This massacre is something that did happen and its definitly worth a article. Baku87 22:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)Baku87

That range minima is still 3 times the one from the official investigation. And yes, it is one man view, such high figures are the product of Kazemzadeh imagination. One can not rely on a single source dismissing and ignoring the vast majority of estimates. Consider that the massacre of Armenians in Baku is much more notable and an estimated higher figure, yet, I don't think that alone it should have its entry but rather be part of one incorporating the Tartar-Armenian conflict on 1918-1919. Fad (ix) 22:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

the massacre of jews in guba recently came up in azerbaijan news and israeli ambassador stated that israel would help in the investigation~and georgia stated they will help to, offcourse this should also be noted in the article, a citation has been given in the article aswell Karabakh 09:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, a man that use terms like 'monster' can hardly be considered as reliable. I rely on published data's, yet there is no single work notable or else which ever refers to the massacre of 3000 Jews or less in Guba by Armenians. It isen't found in British records which report both Armenian and Azeris incidences in Baku and its seroundings. Also, this alleged claims from the Israeli ambassadors has yet to be confirmed in transcript letters to Israel or informations sent to Israel, pointing to a news source from a country that is on rather the bottom sides of freedom of press and a newspaper who often simply make up news is simply ridiculous. Besides, I could also claim that there has been a mass murder in my street and report it to the police and then make up a big fuss over news that they will investigate about it. Even the village idiot can report something and then from the noises it generate build an article in Wikipedia claiming that it will be investigated. Fad (ix) 00:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Verify

I have added this tag as the article has no sources. - FrancisTyers 17:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Francis, this is not the only issue, March Massacre is only called by Azeris, there are at least 6 March massacres recorded in history which are more notable and more widely known. Second of all, the claim that McCarthy claims that 12 thousands have been massacred is simply not true, I provided McCarthy's footnote, he simply provides sources with estimates, the official investigation provides not more than 2,000, which was meant to equilibrate the massacre of Armenians in Baku after the Turkish forces crossed it. According to those investigations 2,000 Azeris and 4,000 Armenians were massacres, when there are neutral sources providing as much as 30,000 Armenians, and that the only report, which is even cited by the prime Azeris source, is of 9,000 Armenian killed, which he justify as vengence. About Guba, this is not cite you source material, this is a delete material, for the reported 2,000 Azeris massacred the British report it, but they say nothing absolutly nothing about Jews being massacred. This just pop up by some dubvious member of the Azeris Academia of science and a Parlementarian of Azerbaijan. Wikipedia can not rely on unpublished materials. Fad (ix) 17:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Added {{pov-title}}. - FrancisTyers 18:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Here’s an article by professor Michael Smith of Georgetown university [1]. He wrote an article for Sakharov center called "Pamiat’ ob utratakh i Azerbaidzhanskoe obshchestvo/Traumatic Loss and Azerbaijani National Memory", in Azerbaidzhan i Rossiia: obshchestva i gosudarstva/Azerbaijan and Russia: Society and State, ed. Dmitrii Furman (Moscow: Sakharov Institute, 2001). Available in Russian at Sakharov center website here. He says that Bolsheviks and Armenian dashnaks killed 12 000 Muslims in Baku in March 1918, and in retaliation Turks and Azeris killed 10 000 Armenians in September of the same year. He refers to the events in Baku as March events or massacre. There are more sources, but I have no desire to deal with Armenian-Azeri conflict for the moment. So the title does not appear to be POV. Grandmaster 18:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Ridiculous, of course always claim to have more sources and provide them never. I already cited from where those 12 thousand figure comes from, which McCarthy provides in his footnote, it was actualy a range, from 9,000 to 12,000. Your book doesn't provide any footnotes. Russia and Azerbaijan by Tadeusz Swietochowski provides 3,000 as figure, and is a much more notable work. (p. 66-67) British Consul Stevens cite the official commission, which was 2,000 Azeris killed and 4,000 Armenians killed. To even think that there was more Azeris massacred than Armenians once the Turkish army crossed the border. John Dos Passos in his book published in 1938 (Journeys Between Wars) provides quotations on how Baku felt in the hands of Dashnaks. Edward J. Erickson who relies on tainted Ottoman records, has much to say about the massacres of Armenians in Baku, but noting I have found about Azeris, he even claim that that the Turks did it by claiming it vengance for Turks killed in Erzerum in March 1918 and not Baku. (Ordered to Die- A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War p. 192) There are higher range of Armenians killed in Baku as much as 30,000 (see: International Politics- The Western State System and the World Community by Frederick Lewis Schuman). You have to give up on that Grandmaster, that period is the center of my knowledge about the issue. The large majority of sources provides much higher Armenian victims than Azeris. Fad (ix) 01:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Give up on what? You dispute the facts in the article, I provided you with the sources. The author is one of the best specialists in the history of Russia. And I always provide my neutral authoritative sources, unlike some other people, who prefer to use unreliable and biased ones. And the article has plenty of footnotes, including the one that discusses the casualties. The article mentions that about twelve thousand died in Baku during clashes and pogroms, and says that it was more than died in Petrograd during revolution. And then the footnote says:

С. Г. Шаумян говорит о 3000 убитых в ходе мартовских событий с обеих сторон (но это - только в самом Баку). Эту цифру принимают Пайпс, Свентоховский и Альтштадт. Азербайджанские источники приводят цифры от десяти до двенадцати тысяч. См.: La Republique de l’Azerbaijan du Caucase. Paris, 1919. P. 19; Государственный архив политических партий и общественных движений Азербайджанской Республики (в дальнейшем ГАППОД), ф. 277 (Дело “Мусавата”), оп. 2, л. 13, 16, 27. Также см. выступления на Втором съезде “Мусавата” (Азербайджан. 1919. № 268; № 270).

Stepan Shaumian talks about 3000 killed from both sides during March events (but this is only within the city of Baku). This figure is accepted by Pipes, Svyatokhovski and Altshtadt. The figures provided by Azerbaijani sources range from ten to twelve thousand. See: La Republique de l’Azerbaijan du Caucase. Paris, 1919. P. 19; State archive of political parties and public movements of Azerbaijan republic.

But the massacre continued in Guba, Shamakhi and other towns and villages of Baku governance, so even if you go with the minimal number of casualties in Baku there were much more Azeris killed in the towns and villages around Baku. And it was dashnaks who committed the first large massacre in the Caucasus in 1918. This is from HRW report:

Russia's Romanov dynasty collapsed under the weight of the First World War, and Azerbaijan and Armenia both declared independent republics. These were short-lived states that by 1920 were reincorporated into the Russian/Soviet fold. During this brief interlude, ethnic tensions flared again fueled by greater political goals. In March 1918, in an effort to seize Baku from local Muslim forces, Soviet Bolsheviks made a pact with the Armenian nationalist Dashnak party. In an orgy of violence that followed, between 3,000 and 3,500 Muslims were massacred. Less than six months later, in September 1918, the Ottoman "Army of Islam" supported by local Azeri forces recaptured Baku. This time an estimated 10,000 Armenians were slaughtered. As the "Great Game" was played out over Transcaucasia and British, Ottoman, Bolshevik, Azerbaijani, and Armenian forces criss-crossed the region, thousands more innocent Armenians and Azeris would lose their lives in communal violence. [2]

Note the reference to the March massacre in the article. The historical part of the report is based on the analysis of the secondary sources, while the part about the late Soviet and post Soviet developments is based on HRW’s own researches. According to the footnotes, the figures of Muslim casualties are taken from Altstadt, The Azerbaijani Turks, pp. 85-87 ; Suny, "The Revenge of the Past," p. 29., while Armenian casualties are taken from Richard Hovannisian, "The Armeno-Azerbaijani Conflict over Mountainous Nagorno-Karabakh, 1918-1919," Armenian Review, Summer 1971. Grandmaster 13:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

So most sources are biased? Everyone can build a cases about whatever they want by finding one or two sources and support their points. I could build my cases as well on the claim that 30,000 Armenians were killed in Baku by the source I have provided. What you are doing is to try selling your sausage here too. Historians make a correlative assesment of events, they do not try finding the highest figures they can find. The 12,000 figure is an Azeris source, I already provided the originator of the source. Those figures have been presented as the Azeris position and published in the: ‘’Claims of the Delegation of the Republic of Caucasian Azerbaijan Presented to the Peace Conference in Paris’’ published in Paris in 1919, check page 18, which is the origine. That you can find some who recycle those figures it doesn’t make them any more credible. The commission provides 2,000, others uses 3,000 and slightly over, but the very large majority of sources provide at least 2 times more Armenian victims. I repeat, you are attempting on your own credibility by pushing this on, unlike you, here I can provide non-googled counless numbers of reputable publications. In fact, McCarthy range of 8,000 to 12,000, both the minima and the maxima originate from Azeris sources. The minima is what was submitted to Urquhart, it was submitted to him too that 18,000 Azeris were killed in Elizavetpol. (F.O. 3713301, no. 121685) and the maxima he provides is from the Azeris delegation, it appears that they were not satisfied with 8,000 since it was under the 9,000 figure of Armenians killed which was circulating. You claim that Smith provides many sources, but where is the 12,000’s footnote? It is a statistical impossibility. You were the one wanting to delete depositions and you are the one now that want to have the figures of the Azerbaijani delegation as sole truth when the most reputable figures are in the 2,000 or 3,000 and also from the most reputable figures there was at least 2 times more Armenian victims. So Hovannisian is not credible? Did you actually read any of his works? Do you even know from where he took those figures? If you are attempting to claim that there was more Azeris victim than Armenian in Baku, you are hardly convincing, that works like Rethinking the Middle East by Efraim Karsh doesn’t say a thing about massacres against Azeris in Baku but do cover the massacre of Armenians can hardly be considered as biases. The Armenians and Tartars have been pretty much 50-50 before the Ottoman army crossed the border and which has specifically chosen the butchers of Eastern Anatolia unboard. Unlike what happened in the end of March in Baku after he news of the Ottoman intention to capture it and the reaction of the Armenian refugees in Baku, the September massacre was premedited weeks before. This is confirmed by various reports including Ernst Paraquin chief of Staff of General Halil (who was the commander in chief of the Eastern army during that period). He reported to General Seeckt that there was an intention of massacre by the Tartars and that there was preparation. (Turkei 183/34, 26 September 1918)

Also, I have yet to see any sources about the 3,000 Jews being killed by Armenians in Guba. That too you have defended in the Sumgait article. You have to admit that you don’t have much knowledge of what you are talking about, it is not by googling and searching for any things you can find to support your position that you will help writting an encyclopedic article. Fad (ix) 15:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I did not actually say anything about credibility of Hovannisian, I just pointed out the sources of the figures in the HRW report. But I’m indeed skeptical about the information coming from Armenian sources, because even professor Smith points out certain things about their behavior (but not only theirs, to be precise). Smith is very critical of both sides of the conflict and the way they represent the events. He says that both sides talk only about being victims of massacres and prefer not to mention the atrocities committed by them. As an example, he points out that:

Neither Rasulzade (Resulzade M. E. Das Problem Aserbeidschan. Berlin, 1938), nor A.Balayev (Азербайджанское национал-демократическое движение. С. 18-19) mention the massacre of Armenians by Azerbaijanis in September 1918. On the contrary, the recent works by Ronald Suny don’t mention the massacre of Azerbaijanis by Armenians in March 1918, (see Suny R. G. The Soviet Experiment: Russia, the USSR, and Successor States. New York; Oxford, 1998. P. 99-100; The Revolution in Transcaucasia // Critical Companion to the Russian Revolution, 1917-1921 / Eds. E. Acton, V. Cherniaev and W. Rosenberg. Bloomington, 1997. P. 725).

And indeed, the article on the history of Azerbaijan in Britannica, written by Suny, who’s an ethnic Armenian, makes no mention of the massacre of Azeris, but mentions massacre of Armenians. It’s quite strange that Britannica chose Suny to write an article about Azerbaijan. See:

Azerbaijan was declared an independent state on May 28, 1918, but Baku remained in the hands of a communist government, assisted by local Armenian soldiers, who had put down a Muslim revolt in March. Allied with the advancing Turkish army, in September 1918 the Azerbaijani nationalists secured their capital, Baku, and engaged in a massacre of the Armenians. [3]

Britannica is a very reliable source of information, but not always, it depends on who they choose to write about a certain topic. As for the figures from Azerbaijani side, some of them are much higher than 12 000, for example see here, it says 25 000, and some sources even claim that 50 000 were massacred.

As for Michael Smith figures, he does not mention the source of Azeri casualties of 12 000 and Armenian casualties of 10 000. It’s possible that he took them from Azerbaijani and Armenian sources, such as the same Hovannisian. He also mentions other available figures, as I said. Grandmaster 09:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I doubt you would claim Suny being biased had you read any of his works. First, Suny is half Armenian, second Suny impartiality has yet to be questioned. You should read his past coverages about Karabakh before saying that he is biased. Claiming biases on the bases that he is Armenian is the same thing as claiming anti-Muslim biases from Lewis part under the pretext that he is a Jew, while many have accused Lewis of pro-Muslim biases the same way that many have accused Suny of pro-Azeris biases. Unlike what you think, Armenian academics are generaly well balanced, even when covering Khojali massacres. You can not rely on a name to question the credibility of a scholar. Raffi Khatchadourian's article published in The Nation, Vol. 277, November 17, 2003 titled 'The Curse of the Caucasus' without reading it would be rejected by you, but I doubt that balatant pro-Armenian and anti-Azeris biases could be found in that work in which he writes: During the fighting, Armenian soldiers (many, it seems, recruited from Sumgait exiles) conducted the worst reported massacre, in the Azerbaijani town of Khojali, where several hundred civilians were slaughtered. How many Azeris scholar could you find that recognize any Armenian tragedies? They even deny the Armenian genocide, and more ardently than Turkish historians at that.

Indeed, there is no mention of the massacre of Azeris, and not only Armenians exclude it, there is no confirmed extent of such massacres, this is why you will find various works which include the massacre of Armenians and not Azeris. There is as well the fact that Halil who escaped the court martial and an organised exist from the prison in which he was on custity and who announced having killed 300,000 Armenians and attempting to kill the Armenians to the last individual run that mission on the Caucasus, transcaucasus and finally to Baku. There is no way that there could have been anywhere near as much Azeris killed in Baku and on its suroundings as there were Armenian killed. The Tartars got the support of an army which specifically was attempting to kill every single Armenian on that region. While the March massacre was initiated by the Russians, who opened Baku's door to the Armenian refugees who survived and who were manipulated by fear after March anouncement of the Ottoman attempt to penetrate and unite the Tartars, and on top of that Brest-Litovsk on March and still Baku's unclear juridiction, which has left Armenian refugees fate with uncertainty and the resulting probable evacuation had the Ottoman a higher hand.

If you realise how much people is 12,000 and how short a period is three days, and how many Armenians at max could have been involved there, it is simply not only an unlikely number, it is a statistical impossibility. It would mean 4 thousand people per day, while most available men were trying to secure Yerevan and that the Turkish forces cut Alexendripole like butter and that with this capability it would represent near 20% of the Armenian effectif lost in Baku killing 4,000 Azeris per day. It wasn't the first time there was confrontation and massacres between Tartars and Armenians and this continued later, but you can not compare this with Halil's army who was aiming at killing every Armenians he came accross, this is why the massacre of Armenians in Baku is of relevance and that those massacres perpetrated by Armenians and Tartars(during the period which they had no Ottoman support) are considered to have little relevance.

Right now, we must rely on what most sources say and not try finding the highest possibly figures. Also, this article alone has no place to exist, what you will call it? Baku massacre? This refers to the massacre of Armenians and you can check works about this. There should definitly be an article refer to this massacre, but it should be an article relating to the regiomn during that period.

As for Guba Jews massacre, this should definitly go, it is simply crap, not recorded in any archives neither works. We rely on published materials. Fad (ix) 16:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

With regard to Suny, it’s not me, it’s professor Smith who blames him of not mentioning the massacre of Azerbaijani people in Baku. As far as I can see Smith is absolutely right, Suny indeed does not mention the fact, while other reputable historians, such as Swietochowski, Altstadt, Pipes and others do.

I included the references to the intro, stating all available figures from reputable sources. All other facts stated in the article should also be properly referenced, so the tags should remain until that’s done. This event is indeed referred to as March massacre or March events by various sources, who deal with the history of the region, but is very little known to people, who don’t take any interest in the history of the region. Grandmaster 12:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't knew Pipes was a historian. As far as I am concerned there are as much evidences to consider Pipes as credible as ones country nationalistic historians.

You aren't convincing, Smith place that as the worst event ever in that region, while he provides no sources. And what you are doing is simply dishonest, Justin McCarthy uses figures which he provides in his footnote, which I have provided, this must be cited, you can not delete the source of the figures. Also, the minima range is not 3,000, but rather the commissions 2,000.

Also, that you like it or not March Massacre is not encyclopedic, there are at least 6 march massacres which are way much more notable like the March massacre against the Taiwanese.

Comming to Suny, Grandmaster, beside Swietochowski, the rest of those you have used (not much), are populist 'historians,' Suny works are well much researched and analytic, and once one understand him, there isen't much to say about his exclusion. (And like I said he isen't the only the excludes what you call the March massacre) Many things happened in 1918, the Turkish invasion on the Caucasus to the so-called Muslim detachments on the name of Turkdom and the Ottoman Empire union fought against the Baku Bolshevic armed forces in which Armenians were dragged and recuted in March 1918, (see for example: The Legacy of History in Russia and the New States of Eurasia by S. Frederick Starr p. 243, he too doesn.t mention much of this march massacre). Shahumian along with twenty six commissars were put to death by the so-called conter revolutionaries to the fall of Baku in September and the massacre of Armenians, which like it or not from most works left at the very least two times more deaths. There is as well the continual attempt by the Azeris side to get Zangezour which was later made possible once Karabakh passed under a local Azeris juridiction temporarly. The Azeris following it have rejected the August peace agreement and attacks culminating with the torching of the Shushi's Armenian quarter and the killing of its bishop and what went in Shosh village and what followed in other villages.

An analytic assesment would either include all or include the most relevant, Baku massacre of Armenians was done under the Ottoman army's, which diferenciate it with the conflicts between Armenians and Azeris.

And finaly, as I said, this article alone is delete material, there is no March massacre alone covered as an independent entity in any known reputable work, either it is included in an article, either it is delete material. Also, I have yet to see any records about the massacre of Jews. Fad (ix) 18:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It's really sad and yet amusing when one considers how much time you azeri members spend pushing your POV. You go to great lengths to distort the truth, never understanding that there's 20 other editors who know your edits for what they really are.--Moosh88 05:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Retraction

After reading Michael G. Smith paper: Anatomy of a Rumour: Murder Scandal, the Musavat Party and Narratives of the Russian Revolution in Baku, 1917-20 (Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 36, No. 2 (Apr., 2001), pp. 211-240 ), I retract my implying of him being a populist historian. Clearly he is much more analytic than Altstadt, and unlike Altstadt doesn't seem to be engaged in symplistic analysis. His coverage of what he calls 'March Event' is pretty much in correlation with some other works I have read. He also uses 12 thousand as figure, but says that up to that number (doesn't footnote it). He covers the Muslim and Bolshevic and Dashnak fightings in March and what followed after the Bolshevic propaganda's about a Muslim revolution, which according to Smith was exagerated. We definitly here have a very relevant paper wich depict the situation and which coupled with few other ones I have found could be used to write an article. I suggest creating an article titled: 'Bolshevic Revolution in Baku' to replace this article. I could email Smith's article to those that want to contribute. Any comment? Fad (ix) 05:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I’ll get back to this a little later, I’m looking for more material for the moment. And please email me the article, if you can. Grandmaster 19:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Name

I decided to move this article from "March Massacre" to "March Days" for two reasons:

1. The name "March Days" has been used by many historians to describe these events including Michael P. Croissant and Audrey L. Altstadt. Meanwhile, I haven't seen the term "March Massacre" used outside of Wikipedia. The only historian who seems to use a slightly different name is Michael G. Smith who refers to it as the "March events."
2. The name "March Massacre" is too broad as it can describe just about any massacre that occured in March during history.

I also decided to revert this article to its earlier NPOV version. This version excludes certain passages that under Wikipedian standards would be considered POV. These include pieces sourced by the Azerbaijani media and the extremely pro-Turkish Justin McCarthy (who, I might add, denies that the Armenian Genocide ever occured and has been used to push the agenda of the Turkish government as recent documents have shown). Croissant, I believe, provides the number 20,000 for a possible higher Armenian death toll in the subsequent September Days incident that followed. -- Clevelander 00:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The Croissant source doesnt have a link to it, its only a line but nothing is backing it up? The other source says 10,000 Baku87 21:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The Croissant source is a book. This particular information, if I'm not mistaken can be found on page 15 and is referenced. Although it is not an eBook, it does have an ISBN which is the closest thing you'll get to an online link. -- Clevelander 21:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Khoikhoi's suggestion

User:Khoikhoi suggested that we merge both this article and September Days into one article called the Baku massacres or 1918 Baku massacres. Any thoughts or suggestions? -- Aivazovsky 13:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Khoikhoi. I think that would be a good idea to have both articels merged and in the articel talk about both of those terrible events. ROOB323 01:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. These are two separate events, which both deserve separate coverage. --Tabib 13:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside opinion

It is my understanding that one user is continually reverting essentially the same block of text. I took a look at the removed text, and the only portion which should be removed is:

The telegram shows that Lenin, with his genius for appreciating people, felt the rashness of Shaumyan. Lenin's advice about diplomacy was nothing but a warning to be more careful and less provoking.

This reads like speculation. However, the other parts of the article which are continuously reverted should be kept. They are very well-cited and not, to my reading, POV. I encourage the involved editors to respond here. Srose (talk) 17:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll leave it for now i guess. Nareklm 17:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Srose, the text you quoted above is taken as is from Dr. Kazemzadeh's book with a page indicated. FYI, Dr. Kazemzadeh is a Professor Emeritus of History at Yale University, recently headed U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedoms. He is an author of several books on Iran, CAucasus and the region. The book quoted here is his PhD thesis with introductory letter from Harvard Professor. So I deem everyone who disputes the wording of a man with such qualifications, to have comparative qualifications in the science of history. Thanks for your contribution. Tengri 18:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Not everyone knows this person. Nareklm 18:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The quote preceding my italicized quotation appears to be found in the book you have cited, but the italicized quotation which concerns me draws a conclusion from the quote FOR the reader, and can thus be construed as POV. Unless that statement appears in its entirety within the book, it should not be included. If it is included, it should be written with the introductory phrase, "According to Dr. Kazemzadeh." Srose (talk) 18:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The statement appears in its entirety on the page of the book indicated in reference, which is page 70, in the section titled "March Events". If you wish, we can add the words "According to Dr. Kazemzadeh". Actually, can you explain me how to cite the same reference in different parts of the text on Wiki, without having to repeated the whole reference in reference section? Thanks. Tengri 18:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that's all right then. I can only get certain pages through my online sources. If it's a direct quote, it should be in quotation marks (") with the citation directly following in any case. It should appear: According to Dr. Kazemzadeh "(quote here)" [reference]. I'm actually not sure how to cite the same non-Internet reference without having it repeat itself, I'm sorry to say. :X Srose (talk) 18:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Srose, I have no problem with that particular edit. If you don't mind, I would also like to get your opinion on the quote in Aftermath section: "Although not an isolated incident, given the participation of the Azerbaijanis during the Ottoman offensive on Armenia in early 1918" which is uncited and used by Nareklm. This quote is absolutely untrue, I would like Nareklm to provide reference exactly to this quote in the book cited at the end of paragraph with section and line number.

If he can't provide the reference, this part of sentence should be removed. In return, I will provide exact quotes on events of September 15, 1918 and number of victims as quoted from the Armeinan National Council by Kazemzadeh and several other references.Tengri 18:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. I haven't gotten to go sentence-by-sentence yet. I think, at this point, everything that isn't cited should be removed from this article. Usually it's okay to have a {{fact}} tag on something in an article for a week or two, but as this is such a disputed article, we should probably just rid ourselves and the article of anything needing such a tag for the time being. Srose (talk) 00:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all i did not put it, i see your trying to do everything in your power to get rid of things like this and it will stay so don't worry. Nareklm 00:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm merely trying to get rid of unsourced statements, so that the accusations of POV can begin to clear. Srose (talk) 14:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, my complain was that Nareklm just blindly removed a big chunk of text. Now, we can work on the citation, texts and proves.--Dacy69 17:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Nareklm, perhaps, if you were really interested in history of your own nation, Armenians, instead of making endless rv's removing references, you would know Dr. Kazemzadeh. And what was the purpose of RV, to hide the truth of killings, why? Dr. Kazemzadeh actually provided a good coverage of historical events, which you call "September Days" in his book, which I will add in coming days. And I am sure you will be sorry for not knowing him well or not appreciating his references. Tengri 18:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I really don't care about hiding the "killings" i can't hide it its already happened, theres nothing to worry about since the massive amount of pogroms, genocides, massacres and human rights violations come from Turkey or Azerbaijan against Christian minorities or Armenians. I don't know if this person is bias or not, or against certain types of people. Nareklm 18:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Killings in a war don't come from single side. But I won't argue on that endlessly. Let's rather leave the truth to references, if you're unable to handle it on your own. Thanks. Tengri 18:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It's wonderful to see how quickly this was resolved. I really encourage both of you to communicate here for an improvement of the article. :) Srose (talk) 18:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Croissant's bubble quotes moved out of context

Nareklm, before putting quotes out of context, you should seriously review the referenced material in Reference section. This quote:

"The brutalities continued for weeks. No quarter was given by either side: neither age nor sex was respected. Enormous crowds roamed the streets, burning houses, killing every passer-by who was identified as an enemy, many innocent persons suffering death at the hands of both the Armenians and Azerbaijanis. The struggle which had begun as a political contest between the Musavat and the Soviet assumed the characters of a gigantic race riot."

actually is in Firuz Kazemzadeh's book, p. 73, paragraph 1, word-to-word and pertains to March events not to September ones, like you did imply by putting it at the end. Kazemzadeh's book was published in 1951. If Michael Croissant republished this paragraph without reference, it should be shameful of him as a scholar. My apologies if he did reference Dr. Kazemzadeh. However, my concern is also about Croissant's rough 10 - 20,000 estimate bazaar about Armenians killed during September events. It seems to me that he counts people as watermellons without any serious research whatsoever into roots of the conflict or any documents related to it. Same goes with his irrelevant and maleducated quotes like "Azerbaijanis participated in Ottoman attacks on Armenia". The question is which Azerbaijanis, private individuals, society, country, army? I doubt Croissant can answer this question with serious research. Another genious one, "Armenians were taking revenge for genocide". Croissant probably has no idea that Azeri-Armenian conflict first flared in 1905, 10 years before the events in Ottoman Empire, and it has nothing to do with Ottoman Empire. Again Croissant is a failure as an unbiased expert of any kind on Armenian-Azeri conflict.

I presented the exact quote by Dr. Kazemzadeh, quoting Armenian National Council and Ishkhanian. Please, do not modify my quotes, get the originals of references before referring to them. If this continues I will request again protection of the page, which was imposed by my request but lifted against my will today. Tengri 11:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead request protection, i never modified your posts. Nareklm 12:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Which sentence in this material do you see as POV? The events related to the liberation of Baku by Azerbaijani and Ottoman forces from the forces of Baku Soviet, Dashnaks, British and other related Russian groups should be separately discussed on September page, with appropriate quotations. The events although pertaining to the same year and the same city, were different in nature and timing. The information on Aftermath section, actually is a clear example of material that would pertain more to September page, rather than here. But even here it creates a visible image of objectivity and unbiased balance of references and wording as a whole about the March events. Atabek 02:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalization by User:Aivazovsky

The site has been vandalized by User Aivazovsky with paragraphs of text removed with valuable sources. This is surprising as the site was clearly balanced reflecting massacres by both sides. It's very sad that Aivazovsky is not able to provide even an explanation for what he has done and blocked the page. Atabek 11:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no explanation for removal of major part of text and reinserting the recent biased, reference-lacking, and clearly POV version by Aivazovsky. Pending further inability of the blocking user to provide any explanation for his single-sided editing and practical vandalization of the article's references and text, the block should be lifted. This is given the fact that the page gave an objective account of both March and September events from major NPOV sources. Interestingly, the version was even accepted and edited by Nareklm. The edit, which was removed by Aivazovsky, even included the precise figure of Armenian losses in Baku as cited by Armenian National Council. So it's rather incomprehensible why user Aivazovsky reverted to the disaster that is currently displayed on this page without any consulting. Atabek 07:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This is blatant vandalism. I second that opinion. A big chunk fo the text has been removed. It was well-sourced to several books, articles and documents.--Dacy69 22:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Atabek's new addition

Do you want to explain why you added such a big chunk of text without discussion? Vartanm 18:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

...and under the sock User:Tengri? -- Aivazovsky 18:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

That makes the mediation invalid. Reverting back. Lets talk about it first. then we can add the text gradually.Vartanm 19:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

What? We're here to write an encyclopedia. Content doesn't hinge on talk-page sockpuppetry allegations. Picaroon 01:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I just thought it was very strange that he would revert the article to a mediation version. In which he used a sock User:Tengri.--Vartanm 01:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Can we please build upon my version? I removed every bias detail, also just because there historians doesn't mean there NPOV since most references i read said they were clashes or etc, no massacres or that much bloody detail because what Atabek added is obviously POV my version was neutral and it had sayings for both. Artaxiad 01:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

You cannot remove anything without valid explanation. You deleted sourced info, please explain the reaona for that. Saying that it is POV is not enough, you should provide a valid reason. Grandmaster 11:29, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Fine, number one its too long it seems Atabek is writing a book here, second the description given is basically very POV, I removed everything that was POV, hopefully other Armenian editors won't revert again and would be satisfied with this version since I slightly edited it. Artaxiad 11:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

ANC references

Artaxiad, you should not be modifying the text of Croissant's reference. Also, I added back the precise numbers from Armenian National Council about Armenian deaths in Baku in September of 1915. This is an important and relevant reference, in light of rough speculation of numbers by Michael Croissant, who is not a historian. Atabek 00:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you own this article? now, I have the right to modify it, not every historian is reliable or NPOV.Artaxiad 01:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not remove large sections without properly substantiating your actions on talk. Thanks. Grandmaster 07:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'm attempting to Neutralize this article because, I am not happy nor Vartanm or Aivazovsky, thats 3 users, we are aloud to do this, it seems as though we are writing a book but not adding encyclopedic entries. Artaxiad 11:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

You should explain deletion of every reference on talk. Please do so now. Grandmaster 11:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad, you should not edit mediated article without proper discussion. All you're doing is removing sources to valuable scholarly articles and book references. Explain in detail which reference you do not like on the current page, engage discussion and prove your point perhaps with another mediation. Wikipedia is consensus based, so whether you have 3 or 53 users on "your side" is really irrelevant. Atabek 20:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Please check the "diffs" everything I removed I am in disagreement in obviously. Artaxiad 01:20, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Category:War crimes in Azerbaijan

Please provide a citation (or several) for the fact that this was a war crime before readding Category:War crimes in Azerbaijan. Thanks. Picaroon 18:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

References

Can we get third party sources? to make the article more neutral please.

Regarding these references, can I have some information on them how reliable they actual are? and also get a source from a third party.

Since these are Armenian and Azeri sources.

References from page:

1. Suren Shaumyan. "Бакинская Коммуна 1918-го года", Пролетарская Революция, No. 12 (59), 1926, p. 78.
2. Tchalkhouchian, Gr., open citation, pp. 85-86
3. B. Ishkhanian. Великие ужасы в городе Баку, Tiflis, 1920, pp. 28-30 as quoted by Firuz Kazemzadeh, "Struggle for Transcaucasia", p. 144.
4. Stepan Shaumyan, Статьи и речи, Baku, p. 224

These above are all Armenian, who are they? please give us information, on there credibility.

Regarding this link, [4] some info again I request, since there are POV information from there referenced here. Artaxiad 01:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad, you have been explained before that the fact of you not speaking Russian language is not yet a basis to claim a source unverifiable. You should also get the English-language book by Firuz Kazemzadeh, published by the New York Philosophical Library, and available in many school and university libraries and check the references before claiming them unverifiable or otherwise bring some scholarly qualifications to judge a Yale history professor as an unverifiable source. The tag will be removed now. Atabek 18:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

These are not third party sources. Artaxiad 19:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

By Kazemzade you mean this [5]? Your dear friend Adil wrote an article about March Days. I see he likes to quote him alot. Of course there is nothing wrong about writing articles. Vartanm 20:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Firuz Kazemzade is 80+ year old scholar, Professor Emeritus of History from Yale University. What does Adil or his article have to do with what's written on Wiki page. March Days are known and recorded events in history and in the books and articles. Atabek 02:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Atabek your intro is wrong, here is the reference where is the Armenian massacres? or the Dashnak, no where it says "massacre" does it

The estimation of events To rasulzade, which pereklikayetsya with the fact that the eyewitnesses write in their memoirs, he speaks faster about a feeling of weakness and desperation, which the Moslem elite experienced, than about any national will or about the dull chauvinism. It recalls, as all left parties they took up arms against "musavata", which, allegedly, brought the matter before the nightmarish events of March of 1918 . "if we would obediently incline the heads before the enemies of freedom, possibly, nothing similar it occurred". In other words, Baku council drove in "musavat" and its series members into the angle and helped to finish them there, after granting the Baku Moslems of the "bacchanalia" of violence. March events for To rasulzade were the national war, untied by Russian Bolsheviks against the defenseless Azerbaijan people. In the skirmishes and the pogrom not less than 12 000 people perished. On the streets of Baku and its environments during these days perished more people, than in always it was combat in Petrograd during February 1917 or during the "bloodless" Bolshevik revolution during October. If we proceed from the number of victims, March events were one of the most terrible episodes in the course of Russian revolution. Specifically, so receives their "Musavat", charging not only Bolsheviks and d$dashnakists, but also itself, powerless leaders of the infuriated masses. Artaxiad 23:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad, Kazemzadeh (American scholar of Persian origin) uses the words massacre, so does Armenian B. Ishkhanian in his book. If you have a problem of accepting the word, here is the definition which will make it easier:

The word massacre has a number of meanings, but most commonly refers to individual events of deliberate and direct mass killing, especially of noncombatant civilians or without any reasonable means of defense, that would often qualify as war crimes or atrocities.

So if the Armenian massacres in Anatolia is labeled with not yet recognized definition of "genocide" on this Wiki page, then I don't see a reason why, March Events, which according to scholars was termed as "massacre", should not be called so. Atabek 02:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Your reference does not state it your making up things they usually only say clashes or March events. Artaxiad 14:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

1) Your source does not say Muslims

2) Your source does not say massacre.

3) Your source does not say dashnaks.

4} Your source says pogroms. Artaxiad 14:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Really?

1.My main source F. Kazemzadeh "Struggle for Transcaucasia: 1917-1921", new York Philosophical Library, 1951, says clearly massacres on page 73. Also,

As far as the massacre of the Muslim civilian population was concerned, Arbishop Bagrat denied that the Armenians had anything to do with it. (Jean Loris-Melikov, "La revolution russe et les nouvelles Republiques Transcaucasiennes", Paris, Felix Alcan, p. 115-117).

So knowing some French in addition to Russian maybe helpful in analyzing all relevant references.

2. F. Kazemzadeh, p. 71:

But it was neither the Kadets, nor the Mensheviks, nor the S.R.'s who saved the Soviet during the March Days. It was the Dashnaktsutiun with its military organization that tipped the scales in its favour.

As I told you earlier, get the book, read it and then argue. Fighting off the reference without reading it is not quite constructive or useful. Thanks. Atabek 16:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

F. Kazemzaden is not Third party he is Iranian-Azeri. Artaxiad 17:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Really again? :) Introduction to the book by Michael Karpovich (Professor of History, Harvard University) says:

Dr. Kazemzadeh has been particularly well-fitted to undertake this investigation. A native of Iran, the son of a Persian father and a Russian mother, he began his education in Moscow (where his father was stationed for years as a diplomat), and he completed it in the United States (at Stanford and Harvard). To his personal knowledge of Russia and the Middle East he has added a thorough training in history. Above all, he has diplayed in his study that degree of detatchment which one is entited to expect from a historian.

Do you want to say that Harvard history Professor Michael Karpovich was wrong, and User:Artaxiad is right? Good luck. If you like, we can invite a mediator to decide between Karpovich (Harvard), Kazemzadeh (Yale) and User:Artaxiad :). Atabek 17:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Nothing about Armenians again, these sentences are not clear and are not properly referenced.Artaxiad 05:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad, are you arguing for the sake of argument or actually following the thread of discussion. It seems to be the first. You said, "Kazemzadeh is not third party, he is Iranian Azeri", and I proved you otherwise. Now, as I told you before questioning the reference, grab the book, read it for yourself. The information provided on the page right now is quite impartial, the numbers for September events are mentioned even from such POV source as Armenian National Council. While technically September events are not related to March Events, they're still there. So what is that you dispute without an end and without a concept? Concretely, please. Atabek 08:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The source stated on the article does not say that, don't present your references here than use it on there, reference it properly. Artaxiad 19:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It has that in the aftermath section, big chunk of text highlighted in italic. It seems that you haven't even read or understood the content of the page. Atabek 00:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about the intro. Artaxiad 01:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

This is March Events page, the major suffering party on those particular events (in March) were Muslim Azeris, not Armenians. I don't understand what relevance does "Armenian Genocide" have to do with Baku March events, when no Turkish army was there in March 1918, it was only Shaumian with Dashnaks, SRs and Kadets vs Musavat. Atabek 04:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the events in Turkey were absolutely unrelated to Baku events, and Artaxiad should stop deleting the word "massacre" from the article. It was a massacre according to sources. Grandmaster 05:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The word is not NPOV its from a Azeri perspective, tons of other scholarly and historian references only said clashes or pogroms. Artaxiad 06:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

There was no word "pogrom" used in the scholarly lingo around 1918, it was massacre. Artaxiad, you have been provided tons of evidence with reference to Western scholars. Why don't you contribute to this talk page a single sentence from similarly NPOV source that proves your not quite well defined points. Otherwise, your comments and activity on this page look nothing other than POV pushing. Atabek 10:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

There is word pogrom now scholars and historians may use you are also mis-referencing which I bolded above instead of presenting your references fix them on the article. Artaxiad 18:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why word "pogrom" should be used, when more prominent and credible scholars used the word "massacre". According to your logic, we should also call events of 1915 in Anatolia as Armenian or Turkish "pogroms". How about that? Atabek 22:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Did I say this? no, if it was a massacre I'm sure it would have been called March massacre. Your mis referencing is not impressing me, and your accusations reference your work properly. Artaxiad 23:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It was called a March massacre by Yale scholar as well as by Armenian scholar Ishkhanian. Also, your making up of number 30,000 from the source that says 10,000 is not acceptable. I am correcting this and reporting your POV pushing in ArbCom immediately. Thanks. Atabek 23:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead, I was still in the process of adding references. Artaxiad 23:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

HRW is not an expert source on history in general, but Kazemzadeh and Smith are. Both cite the number close to 10,000, with Kazemzadeh even giving the precise figure from the Armenian National Council, shown in the Aftermath section. So clearly your attempt to put unsourced 30,000 in there was a needless disruption. Atabek 23:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay? I will add it back when I get the references okay? the number was 10-35 thousand. Artaxiad 23:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No additions without discussion on talk page. I am sure that number 35,000 is similar to your previous disruption as well as so called 300,000 (1930s) -> 600,000 (1960s Brittanica) -> 1.5 million to now -> 2.5 million (authored by Fadix) victims of Armenian massacres in Anatolia. Professional forgery and inflation of numbers, failing to understand that massacre and genocide are not termed by number of victims but by content of crime. Atabek 23:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This above speaks volume. Fad (ix) 04:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Artaxiad 00:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad, there is an ArbCom injuction that asks you to discuss your edits on Talk page before making them. You have been warned. Atabek 01:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Those are for only reverts buddy. Artaxiad 20:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

We will let the ArbCom or ANI decide that, when you make such edit. Please, refrain from using personalizing terms. Thanks. Atabek 20:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay? those aren't "personalized" terms, I was about to add the references if you did not revert it so quickly, theres no rules against this. Artaxiad 20:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Kazemzadeh

Atabek wrote: A native of Iran, the son of a Persian father and a Russian mother,

Persian is another term equivalent to Iranian, specially during 1951. This does not prove his ethnicity. Artaxiad 17:14, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The book clearly makes reference to Azerbaijanis as well as Persians. So if he was Azerbaijani, it would be written so. But in any case, I wish you good luck proving that Artaxiad is more credible than Yale Professor Emeritus, former head of U.S. Committee on Religious Freedom and head of U.S. Bahai organization :). My suggestion though, instead of trying to prove identity of major U.S. scholar on the region, why don't just make an effort to read his book once. You will learn more about your own country, Armenia, to which Dr. Kazemzadeh devoted a whole chapter. I am sure that after reading the book you will find very little ground to claim Dr. Kazemzadeh being unsympathetic to Armenian side.Atabek 04:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I don't know the books full name or details. Artaxiad 04:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The book's full title is presented in reference section of the March Days page, which I wish you would read at least once before attempting to edit... Atabek 09:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I pretend to assume good faith now, can there be any explainations that while most source provide 3,000 as number of victims, the "up" to is given such a significance when it was the figure presentated by the Azerbaijan's delegation (for example see Justin McCarthy footnote for that figure). The investigation presented by the British was of 2,000. Need I to provide the records again? And this is only the introduction. Fad (ix) 01:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Also Smith paper, available on Jstor, which I provided the title above, does not report massacres on Massacre on 30-31 March, 1918. It report them on April. And here, I did not even read the rest. The only thing I did was to check the intro the the titles of sections, and found mistakes right there. Can I expect those two being fixed anytime soon? Fad (ix) 01:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm waiting an answer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fadix (talk • contribs) 22:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

Atabek wrote: A native of Iran, the son of a Persian father and a Russian mother,

Persian is another term equivalent to Iranian, specially during 1951. This does not prove his ethnicity. Artaxiad 17:14, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The book clearly makes reference to Azerbaijanis as well as Persians. So if he was Azerbaijani, it would be written so. But in any case, I wish you good luck proving that Artaxiad is more credible than Yale Professor Emeritus, former head of U.S. Committee on Religious Freedom and head of U.S. Bahai organization :). My suggestion though, instead of trying to prove identity of major U.S. scholar on the region, why don't just make an effort to read his book once. You will learn more about your own country, Armenia, to which Dr. Kazemzadeh devoted a whole chapter. I am sure that after reading the book you will find very little ground to claim Dr. Kazemzadeh being unsympathetic to Armenian side.Atabek 04:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I don't know the books full name or details. Artaxiad 04:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The book's full title is presented in reference section of the March Days page, which I wish you would read at least once before attempting to edit... Atabek 09:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I pretend to assume good faith now, can there be any explainations that while most source provide 3,000 as number of victims, the "up" to is given such a significance when it was the figure presentated by the Azerbaijan's delegation (for example see Justin McCarthy footnote for that figure). The investigation presented by the British was of 2,000. Need I to provide the records again? And this is only the introduction. Fad (ix) 01:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Try harder, assuming good faith can be useful. It's for the same reason that I included numbers cited by Kazemzadeh from Armenian National Council (obviously a POV source) to show Armenian victims in September. Perhaps, if you now question Kazemzadeh and Smith on 12,000, we should also remove numbers on the Armenian victims in September (indeed different from the month of March), which, considering the annual "inflation" of "Armenian genocide" victims, was probably 1/10th of that reported by ANC. Atabek 23:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Also Smith paper, available on Jstor, which I provided the title above, does not report massacres on Massacre on 30-31 March, 1918. It report them on April. And here, I did not even read the rest. The only thing I did was to check the intro the the titles of sections, and found mistakes right there. Can I expect those two being fixed anytime soon? Fad (ix) 01:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The 1920 New York Times magazine reference I just added cites also March 1918. Firuz Kazemzadeh (who is weighter authority and is cited by Michael Smith througout his papers) on pages 69-76 of his book mentions the word massacre in regards to March Events. Also this is from Michael Smith. "Anatomy of Rumor: Murder Scandal, the Musavat Party and Narrative of the Russian Revolution in Baku, 1917-1920", Journal of Contemporary History, Vol 36, No. 2, (Apr. 2001):

The Caucasus front now joined Baku politics with disastrous consequences, culminating in the notorious "March Events" of 1918. (page 225) -- no April here

The basic elements were now in place for the infamous and contentious "March Events", when Russian Bolshevik and Armenian Dashnak troops vied with armed Muslim units for control of the streets of Baku. For the Bolsheviks, the March Events begain with a rumour on 30 March that the officers and solders of the Savage Division aboard the steamer, Evelina, were conspiring to lead a rebellion in Baku and were preparing to set off for Lenkoran to gather more forces. (pp. 226-227)

The results of the March Events were immediate and total for the Musavat. Several hundreds of its members were killed in the fighting, up to 12,000 Muslim civilians perished; thousands of others fled Baku in a mass exodus.(p. 228).

Turkish military forces and Azerbaijani militias carried out severe pogroms against the civilian Armenian community, vengeance for the March atrocities just a few months before. (p. 229).

Now, Fadix, with all said above, if we are refusing to call a deliberate atrocities against 12,000 Azerbaijani people a massacre, I don't see why should we call Armenian victims of World War I caught up on a battleground between Russian forces, Armenian militia and Ottoman forces as "genocide". Atabek 23:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Look, we are writing an encyclopaedia, NOT another one of Adil websites. There is nothing that makes me angrier, when one insinuates that I am lying by purposely removing from Smith work parts. Smith work makes it clear that the massacres happened in the beginning of April, you are distorting Smith. I won’t waste my time typing all the part which place things in context, but I will be doing only this.

This was a civil war that, quite by coincidence in the Soviet version, also turned into the murderous ‘national war’ between Dashnak and Muslim forces between 1 and 3 April. The Bolsheviks freely admitted their inability to prevent the anti-Muslim pogroms that were perpetrated by renegate Dashnak troops and that spread to nearby cities and villages.

…

Muslim sources contest these prejudices. They portray the March Events instead as initially an act of rather reckless violence, instigated by Muslim crowds frustrated by Baku Soviet’s real policies of exclusion and patriarchy, angered by potent rumours that it was preparing to disarm and suppress them.

…

Then he continues, I already told Grandmaster that I agree with Smith description of the event. BUT!!! The March event does not relate to the massacres, it relates to the events of the last days of March which later at the beginning of April lead to the massacres. In any case on March there was no massacre. And I hope you won’t force me to quote the rest, this of course for you it won’t be necessary, but for the potential readers who don’t have access to the work and who might be fooled by your misleading allusions it just might. And no, for your information I did not deny the massacres, what I did was against turning this article into the article which Adil Baguirov has written about the event, which it has become thanks to you.

Many things happened in 1918, the Turkish invasion on the Caucasus to the so-called Muslim detachments on the name of Turkdom and the Ottoman Empire union fought against the Baku Bolshevic armed forces in which Armenians were dragged and recruited in March 1918.

True, Smiths provides up to, but most sources use 3,000 as source. The upper limits comes from ‘’Claims of the Delegation of the Republic of Caucasian Azerbaijan Presented to the Peace Conference in Paris’’ published in Paris in 1919, p. 18, as McCarthy source it. British Consul Stevens cite the official commission, which was 2,000 Muslims killed.

Doesn’t Tadeusz Swietochowski in his “Russian and Azerbaijan” on p. 66-67 provides 3000 as figure? Doesn’t Altstadt use about that figure? Doesn’t Pipes use that figure? “Up to” is clearly not encyclopedic tone at all. Ranges are. Fad (ix) 00:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

new source to add: Peter Hopkirk

It's ironic to see how some here try to show that only 2,000 (?!) Azerbaijanis were killed in March Massacres of 1918, and rename March massacres into smth else. NEver mind that best-selling British journalist and narrative historian, who published extensively on region, calls it "genocide". FROM: Peter Hopkirk, “Like hidden fire. The Plot to bring down the British Empire”, Kodansha Globe, New York, 1994. ISBN-10: 1-56836-127-0

“’We were now alone and unarmed,’ wrote MacDonell. ‘Liaki [near Gabala, several hours away from Baku], the last stronghold of the enemy [Azerbaijanis], lay ahead of us, and it was there that we would have to take in water for our engine. We were by now many hours behind the troops, and we steamed slowly towards Liaki not knowing what we were going to find.’ All seemed quiet as they rounded the last bend. The station was deserted – ‘the first we had seen not in flames,’ MacDonell noted. Leaving the driver to take on water, he and Noel walked into the nearby village. ‘It was a ruin,’ MacDonell recalled, ‘with the dead lying in the streets and the dogs sniffing at their corpses.’" (p. 273)

“Only now did he discover the reason for his seizure. The Jungalis, he learned to his horror, were planning to try him for genocide. Shortly after Noel’s departure, Baku had erupted into bloodshed. The Jungalis, it appeared, now held him personally responsible for the massacre of several thousand of their fellow Muslims at the hands of the Armenians.” (p. 281).

“Russian gunboats in the harbor, whose crews were mostly sympathetic to the Bolsheviks and their leftists allies, joined in against the Muslims, mercilessly bombarding their quarter of the city, and wreaking terrible carnage and destruction. But it was the Armenians who decided the issue. … Under intense pressure from the Dashnaks, an extremist Armenian nationalist group, their leaders joined forces with the Bolsheviks against the Muslims. It was a decision they would pay for dearly before six months were out. ‘For three days it was touch and go as to who would get the upper hand,’ wrote MacDonell. ‘But at last he Tartars [Azerbaijanis] and the Savage Division were beaten back, and by the fifth day not a single Muslim of any importance was left in the town, and few of their houses were left standing.’" (p. 283)

"One British witness to the slaughter was Ida Dewar Durie, the wife of a British officer serving with the military mission in Tiflis. … She was staying in the Hotel d’Europe, anxiously awaiting word of her husband Robert, when she found herself caught up in the battle for Baku, which she watched from her bedroom window. In a letter to her family she described what she, and another Englishwoman sharing her room, saw as the battle ebbed and flowed in the streets around the hotel and shells from the gunboats shook the town. … All the wounded delivered to the hospital appear to have been Bolsheviks or (end page 284)

(begin page 285) Armenians, for Mrs Dewar Durie makes no mention of seeing any Tartar casualties, except for the dead, who were strewn about the streets in scores. Indeed, periodically search parties would comb the hotel ‘hunting for Tartars who had eluded them,’ and once she witnessed two Muslims being dragged roughly along by a party of Bolsheviks. ‘As I looked, and without a second’s warning, the group halted, and the prisoners were shot in the head.’ Their executioners then wrenched off their boots and tossed their corpses into the gutter, where they remained for two days.

…

By now the Muslim leaders could see that they had no hope of overthrowing the Bolsheviks and their allies and seizing control of Baku. They had unwisely taken the Armenian declaration of neutrality at face value, and had also been badly taken aback by the savagery of the naval bombardment. (end page 285)

(begin page 286) “Urged by Lenin to show restraint towards the ethnic groups whom the Bolsheviks sought to win over to their cause, Shaumian agreed to a ceasefire. But the Armenians, seeing that at last they had their ancient foes on the run, were now out for vengeance. The fighting thus continued, until virtually the entire Muslim population had either been driven from the city or been slaughtered. By the fifth day, although much of the city was still ablaze, all resistance had ceased, leaving the streets strewn with dead and wounded, nearly all of them Muslims.

From her window, Mrs Dewar Durie watched grimly as the corpses were collected from where they lay and flung unceremoniously on to carts. ‘Some of the bodies’, she wrote, ‘were practically naked after the looting. Officers could be seen roughly searching their pockets, snatching out notebooks and papers soaked in blood, their own hands and arms red to the elbows.’ Although the shooting was now over, the worries of those in the hotel were not. In the Muslim quarter, its flames fanned by a gale which had suddenly sprung up, a huge fire was raging out of control. Mrs Dewar Durie was told that it had been deliberately started by the Bolsheviks and Armenians in order to drive the Muslims out of their positions.

…

With the collapse of the Muslim revolt, the Baku Soviet had been saved. Shaumian reported to Lenin: ‘For us the results of the battle were brilliant. The destruction of the enemy was complete. We dictated to them the conditions, which were signed without reservation.’” While Azerbaijani (end page 286)

(begin page 287) sources claimed that as many as 12,000 Muslims, including old men, women and children, had been killed, Shaumian insisted that no more than 3,000 had died. But he admitted that the participation of the Armenian units ‘lent the civil war, to some extent, the character of a national massacre’, adding that ‘the Muslim poor suffered severely’. However, he went on to reassure Lenin that those Muslims who had not fled Baku ‘are now rallying around the Bolsheviks’.

…

It was immediately after the crushing of the Baku Tartars that Captain Edward Noel found himself accused by his Jungali captors of being personally to blame for the slaughter. Arraigned before three judges at a sort of revolutionary court martial, he demanded proof of this wild claim from his accusers. ‘To my dismay,’ he wrote, ‘my judges turned on me triumphantly with the counterfoils of my cheque-book which had been removed from my pocket after my abortive attempt to escape in Enzeli.’ This was the cheque-book which had been used to pay British subsidies to the Armenian units who continued to resist the Turks. Although the money was secretly channeled to them via the Russian military authorities, the stubs revealed the damaging truth only too clearly.” (begin page 320) “Because he enjoyed good relations with the Armenian leaders, it would be MacDonell’s task to bring he Armenians in at the right moment. As for the Muslim population, they were no longer a factor, for those who had not been killed in the recent massacre had mostly fled into the countryside ready to welcome the advancing Turks.” --adil 23:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

British role in financing Armenians in 1918

also from Hopkirk's book:

(begin page 262) “To try to avoid becoming entangled in the region’s bitter internecine wrangles, the British decided that the money should be distributed to their chose candidates by general Lebidinsky, the Russian officer still nominally commanding the Caucasian army. … The most obvious candidates, as we have see, were the Armenians, who were still holding out against the Turks in their ancient homelands around Erzerum and Trebizond. One million roubles were therefore paid to them via General Lebidinsky – supposedly in great secrecy. But news of the payment quickly reached the ears of their (end of page 262)

(begin page 263) principal rivals, the Georgians and the Azerbaijanis, who were furious. MacDonell blamed the leak on ‘the chattering tongues of the Armenians … [as in text] who boasted that the primary object of the British mission was to assist them.’ To try to placate the Georgians and the Azerbaijanis, they too were offered funds if they would continue to man the Turco-Caucasian front alongside the Armenians. … The Azerbaijanis, for their part, turned the British offer down flat and withdrew their remaining troops from the front. They had no wish to fight their co-religionists and ethnic cousins, the Turks, whose help they might very soon be glad of. Their immediate concern was to protect their territorial interests against those who threatened them. For a start that meant the Bolsheviks, whom they saw as merely yet more Russian colonialists in a new guise. Already the Bolsheviks, led by Stepan Shaumian, the ‘Caucasian Lenin’, had virtual control of Baku, the richest and largest city in the Azerbaijani heartland. To make matters worse, Shaumian was an Armenian, and already there were alarming signs that, at his instigation, Armenian nationalists and Bolsheviks in Baku had reached an accommodation clearly directed against the Azerbaijanis”.

(begin page 264) “By now MacDonell was travelling regularly back and forth between Baku and Tiflis on what he called ‘my little train’. This consisted of three carriages – a sleeping car, a dining car and another for his official escort. On the Baku-to-Tiflis run he carried large quantities of roubles for eventual distribution to the Armenians and others. These were skillfully concealed behind mirrors, inside ventilators and in various other nooks and crannies. For MacDonell was anxious to keep all knowledge of what he was up to from the Azerbaijanis.”

(begin page 266) “’On the following day,’ wrote MacDonell, considerably relived, ‘we were allowed to continue our journey to Tiflis.’ For buried among his dirty clothes were no fewer than two million roubles.” --adil 23:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Adil stop your distortions

First, the title of the work is not what you claim, it is "On Secret Service East of Constantinople- The Plot to Bring Down the British Empire. Why did you try to pass a chapter of the book as its title. Second, he DOES NOT CALL IT GENOCIDE, he refers to Jugalis, more exactly Kuchuk Khan's Jugalis. Should I add what are in the "..." or the rest? I really don't have much to waste right now, but I will as soon as I have time, again expose how you purpously distort sources. Fad (ix) 01:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Fadix, the definition in the book says "genocide", and that's what is referenced. After all, we have several people deliberately attributing some words to Hitler and using it for justifying the title of "Armenian genocide". So you stop it. If you have references to oppose, present them. Atabek 01:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The Jungalis, he learned to his horror, were planning to try him for genocide. Show me WHERE in this quote, does he say ANYWHERE that it was a genocide? Where??? As for Hitler quote, throw your irrelevencies out from here. Fad (ix) 01:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Fadix, there is no mistake -- the US edition, which I have, is called "LIKE HIDDEN FIRE. The Plot to bring down the British Empire", whilst the British edition, also published in 1994, is called "On Secret Service East of Constantinople- The Plot to Bring Down the British Empire". This is noted in the book itself. I can scan both the cover of the book, and the copyright pages to prove it. I also included the ISBN. It's easy to verify. But to avoid confusion we can add the second title as well. Meanwhile, I quoted the paragraph ENTIRELY and it is CLEAR that it's Peter Hopkirk who classifies the murder of Azerbaijanis as "genocide", because, to begin with, the word didn't exist in 1918, and hence Junglis could not have used that word, and secondly, because it is not in quotes (""), showing that he is not quoting Jungalis, but expressing his expert opinion. Frankly, all subsequent quotes (about virtually no Muslim being left in Baku) only prove it. Meanwhile, if you are so familiar with the book, why didn't you quote it before? --adil 01:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, fine, now post what is in the (...) Fad (ix) 01:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted your edits again, this is not classified as a genocide you can keep thinking that POV, keep your thoughts to your self please a few POV sources mean nothing especially from the government. Artaxiad 01:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Artaxiad, I had to revert (for the first time) your removal of references from the article without discussion. You're unable to present counter evidence to body of references presented above and are only resorting to an edit war. Please, discuss what you have to put against the references presented before accusing people of POV. Atabek 01:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

That's POV nuff said, keep your self-opinioned nonsense to your self this is not a genocide, not even close. Artaxiad 01:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yet another personal attack and ad hominem, and you don't demonstrate any desire of editing without emotions. The references are provided, and following by "your example", I added the word alleged in front of genocide of Armenians as well. It will be removed, only when the labelling in front of Azerbaijani is removed. Atabek 01:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah sure, keep on thinking every post someone makes is a personal attack.... Artaxiad 01:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)