User talk:BKLisenbee

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snoyes 21:35, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Jajouka (not Joujouka) and Master Musicians of Jajouka (not Master Musicians of Joujouka)

FayssalF:

There is a problem with redirecting from Jajouka to Joujouka and from Master Musicians of Jajouka to Master Musicians of Joujouka.

I have looked on the MSN Encarta Encylopedia and found the Moroccan village listed there as Jajouka. It is not Joujouka. Here is the link showing the correct spelling as Jajouka: encarta

There is only one official site: www.jajouka.com and not (joujouka.net).

Does this help? When will someone at Wikipedia, an administrator or editor fix this redirection? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BKLisenbee (talk • contribs) 20:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

Hi BKLisenbee. I am really confused. This issue is really bothering me a lot. I've semi-protected both Joujouka and The Master Musicians of Joujouka hoping contributors would use the talk pages to discuss the issues. I am not sure what to do, really. Discussions at talk pages would really help me sort this out for you. Coudl you please post some of your concerns re these articles at their respective talk pages? Cheers -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 10:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Sir, when you try to "discuss" the Jajouka / Joujouka mess with you come up with Frank Rynne's name as and that seems to be the problem. No one can do anything until you allow others to actually to actually talk to someone who realizes it is hijacking the name of Jajouka and turning it into Joujouka or Master Musicians of Joujouka. This is not a balanced way of dealing with the issue and goes contrary to Wikipedia's philosophy of fairness to all.— Preceding unsigned comment added by BKLisenbee (talk • contribs)

BKLisenbee. If you read my message above carefully you'd understand that i am not supporting any of the versions. What i am supporting in to see all parties discussing these issues at talk pages. I'd happily help moderate the discussion but someone needs to start it as i already did my part (protecting articles for the same reason) and waiting a reaction from your part at the talk pages. Once the matter is sorted out, i'll obviously un-protect the articles. Otherwise, i'll be bold and deal with this issue tomorrow as you already gave me the Encarta link. Cheers -- Szvest - ^{Wiki me up ®} 19:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear All, BK ie Kennteth knows full wel that there have been two groups of musicians from Zahjouka (the name used by the local Caid and officials) one Master Musicians of Joujouka who have just releasd yet another Cd. The other grouyp is Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. The latter have bben involved in a long dispute with both the villagers and the late Mohamed Hamri. The Joujouka spelling was the earliest used in the West and was used since the sixties by the group on joujouka.net. I suggest a seperate page for Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar as they have substanially different notion of the history of the group. IE all references to Hamris role in the both groups history will be removed. This was demonstrated by the reissue of the Brian Jones album in 1995 when the sleave notes of Brion Gysin who was dead at the time were altered by Mr. Attar so as to leave out Gysin's ref to Hamri as being the person who introduced him to Joujouka. They also CHANGED THE SPELLING from the original 1971 release so this is an old problem. opiumjones 23 19:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Please add yourself to the disambiguation assent request at article talk page

I discovered a poll at "The Master Musicians of Joujouka" talk page regarding disambiguating, which means "splitting into separate articles" for this piece. You are mentioned by the administrator on that page. Normally experienced administrators or editors are not so timid about this process and do not wait for people to post their assent, but he called for people involved in the Talk Page to give their assent, so please log in some time and list your view on disambiguation if you ever happen to see this message. It seems to me the broader "Master Musicians of Jajouka" name as used in allmusic.com should be listed for article mentioning the major label artists and "Master Musicians of Joujouka" for the Sub Rosa group article. See the bottom of the talk page, unless by the time you see this message the article has already been split by the administrator. Emerman 17:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I notice just now that you have replied to the item I mentioned above. For reference, it is good to end a reply with the signature using the 4 tilde ~ marks rather than put it at the beginning. You could begin the item by putting [Reply by BKLisenbee]: at the beginning if you feel a need to mark a new reply for some reason at the beginning. Also, sometimes people indent new items using colon : marks (as I did in this indented reply to myself) and a space before the beginning of an entry but your reply is not a reply to someone else so you are ok with not indenting. When people list their vote often they would normally deliniate themselves by starting with an asterisk * and a space but nobody else did that so I guess you don't need to either. But I would recommend putting your signature at the end instead of the beginning of your reply because people might think someone is speaking to you as in "BKLisenbee, ..." instead of realizing you are signing your reply since signatures normally go at the beginning. Just a note since I am gathering that you are possibly new to wikipedia. Welcome to wikipedia. Emerman 21:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Personal Involvement

You obviously have a personal involvement with Jajouka, Master Musicians of JajoukaMaster Musicians of Joujouka, Mohamed Hamri, Paul Bowles as you admin his site, Bachir Attar Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Jajouka

Perhaps it would be wise not to edit those pages as it could be construed as POV as you are obviously a part of the story.

Abelelkrim 06:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

BK LIsenbee you deleted my comments on this page and the talk pages for Mohamed Hamri and Bachir Attar

Please do not delete my comments, if there is a reason why I should delete them pls. leave a message on my talk page. You have continued to edit the pages which involve your friends and business associates this is the reason the comments were left. ie So that other Users will have a chance to gauge whether your edits should all be reverted.

This is not acceptable behaviour.

You also marked your edits m for minor they were not minor edits.

Abelelkrim 17:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

stop removing my commments this further proves your pov

You continue to remove my comments which have proven your business and other relationships to the subjects you have been editing. Stop this or I will seek to have you blocked. It is not acceptable behaviour.

Just admit the PoV and only edit on pages not directly related to your business and personal life. In the mean time until other users can see and comment on your POV I shall repost and revert your editing of me on. Please behave corrrectly.

Abelelkrim 18:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Block

I've blocked you form editing temporarily for your disruptive behaviour, including deleting another editor's comments from article Talk pages. When the block expires, please edit responsibly, and with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.

Note also that removing links to sites with which you disagree is not acceptable. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 14:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

re your issues as posted

I read the article and the user is not mentioned. Bowles being dead is beyond libel. However the user BKLisenbee is a serial POV editor employed by the subjects or the heirs of many of his edit page subjects. His talk page comments seem to claim illegal activities by named and presumably living people. At the same time he claims to be abused in the same way while spreading potentially legally damaging stuff for this community. This seems strange. I will try and contact the site that says they reported this user to the police and get more details. I advise caution.

Abelelkrim 01:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Re User BKLisenbee edits

The below is a posting I placed on your User Talk page which you deleted and put OK in the action box. You also withdrew the defence of your POV edits and recorded OK in the action box.

I am posting here again as you seem to be claiming innocence

Among your bad edits are Mohamed Hamri eg that The Rolling Stones released "Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Jajouka"" re issue. It was Philip Glass's Point Music, also you deleted a link to

• [http://www.babelmed.net/index.php?menu=1&cont=2523&lingua=en&PHPSESSID=47c41c Article re Bachir Attar that refers to his drinking two bottles of vodka in one sitting by Arab writer Issandr El Amrani on the Babel Med news and culture site. The site is reputable and the journalist was there!!!!!

They are merely recent examples. However, you have been writing pages whose subjects you are involved in either/or and both very personally and financially!!

Therefore you are a POV editor and a vandal when you delete other edits on those pages!!!

Below is the deleted post:

User: BK Lisenbee

It was not the personal involvement that you below justify that I was referring to. However the below statement seems to indicate that you were not “personally involved” until two people who advocate a differing POV ie they work/ or are somehow advocates of the The Master Musicians of Joujouka did an interview you object to.

You posted the following on your User page

“I am not "obiously a part of the story", as you say. I was only drawn into this because Frank Rynne & Joe Ambrose slandered Paul Bowles and libeled myself and a friend, who still live in Tangier”

The above quote from your posting on your user page is actually stating that you not” obviously a part of the story” but your personal involvement is justified because of an interview referred to above. This is confirming that you have a POV.

As your deletions followed a pattern of recent vandalism they gave great cause for concern.

However the personal involvement I referred in my post on this page "Personal Involvement" was to do with the below information which I did not feel I needed to go into as I was sure you were aware of your involvement in the affairs of Bachir Attar

So here is a little of what I found about this on the web. Some issues were previously raised on archived discussions pages.

You are webmaster and designer of [http/www.paulbowles.org] a website associated with the Paul Bowle’s Estate some of the beneficiaries of which included Ms Cherie Nutting (Bachir Attar's manager) and a Philip Ramey.

See

• Arts web page detailing one aspect of your involvement in paul bowles site

Site states “Responsibility Lisenbee, Kenneth (Designer) - Responsibility PaulBowles.org and the estate of Paul and Jane Bowles (Copyright_holder)” The website you run contains negative references to Mohamed Hamri and you have been editing the Wiki page on him.

see

• Paul Bowles site you run

Your website promotes and links to

• [1] Bachir Attar’s website and has recently helped promoting a show by his group.

• Bachir Attar promo and link to his commercial site on your website

The ex wife of Bachir Attar and current manager of his group, Cherie Nutting writes for your site. Her photographs are also used throughout. You say you met Miss Nutting and Bachir Attar as they visited Mr. Bowles in Tangier.

In light of the above and the below links and facts I am afraid that I can not accept your statement at face value. You are also listed as having travelled with Miss. Nutting to events

On the below site

See

• Travellling to USA with C. Nutting

Quote “November 1, 2000, Paul Bowles' ashes were buried alongside his parents and grandparents at the Lakemont Cemetery in Lakemont, New York, just a few miles from Seneca Lake in the Fingerlakes area of New York State. A small group of people made the journey to honor their old friend; among them, Phillip Ramey, Kenneth Lisenbee, Joseph A. McPhillips III, Cherie Nutting, Virginia Spencer Carr, Claude Nathalie Thomas, Irene Herrmann and Philip Krone.”

Therefore I would again suggest in the strongest Wiki way that you cease to edit the various Jajouka Joujouka and related pages which you have previously edited with a pro Master Musicians of Jajouka/Bachir Attar and anti Master Musicians of Joujouka/ Mohamed Hamri bias. These edits are sometimes very minor I will admit such as putting links to Master Musicians of Joujouka in different positions to highlight your friend and colleague's pages Master Musicians of Jajouka. However you have also completely changed Bachir Attar in the last few days.

This is not exactly the same as editing your own page but it is against Wiki rules and good behaviour.

Again I must reiterate that it was the closeness of your recent edits to blocked Anon IPs who vandalised links that brought your edits to my attention. These IPs' edits are consitant with your POV edits.

This Jajouka Joujouka mess needs to be straightened out and is best left to people who are not directly involved in either sides' business affairs. Please respect the rules of this site.

One last note after your link deletions you have now started editing, amongst other pages, Jajouka This page is under discussion and certain users feel that the official Moroccan government spelling should be adopted with links from the two names used by the recording groups for clarity. I shall revert your copy edits later. Abelelkrim 02:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)