Talk:Exaltation (Mormonism)

Can someone decipher this article and write something that isn't verbatim from Mormon canon? Such language doesn't really have a place in Wikipedia, anyways (unless it were to be clearly quoted). Praetorian42 18:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed some bits that weren't relevant to Mormonism. They probably fit better before the page was renamed to be specific to Mormonism, but don't now. They didn't seem significant enough to go back on the disambiguation page. Wesley 17:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This article was the original destination for the word "exaltation" in Wiki. But the word "exaltation" has other (non-theological) meanings and the word needed to be disambiguated. If it's not Mormon, then by all means move it to a re-titled page. That's the only reason I re-titled this material. If you have another solution, please try it. It was never my intention to offend anyone or muddy any other pages. But we need "exaltation" in other contexts. NaySay 05:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

How came they to believe something they don't know what is?

The 1st para reads:

Exaltation [...] is a belief among devout members of The Church [...] that mankind, as spirit children of their Father in Heaven, can become like Him. Although the exact meaning of this has not been defined, most Latter-day Saints speculate that this signifies [...]

So... How can I "believe" something if I don't really know what's its meaning? I mean, why do they believe it?

Additionaly, how isn't its meaning defined?? Well, in some point, somebody had to add it to the church's creed, were Smith, his son, or whoever. Did he merely say "Mankind, as spirit children of God, can become like him. Period. No, no, I won't explain it. You better had understood it the first time." ? --euyyn 15:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting questions. What the New Testament teaches is that we become co-inheritors with Christ. What does that mean? Does anyone understand it; did Christ explain it or did say, "Oops, sorry; it is a little too deep for this mornings discussion, let's move on." Obviously not; let's both drop the sarcasm. It is too often interpreted as offensive language and someone who intends to be rude.

Also, does anyone ever understand God? No, there has never been one mortal that has ever lived that has grasped the full meaning of God. Mortals have ideas and think they understand facets of God, but a complete understanding is beyond our comprehension. Remember what the definition faith "It is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."(Heb. 11:1) We are speaking of things of faith; faith does not demand a complete understanding prior to belief or hope. Faith is the spark of belief that is given by the Holy Spirit that can become a flame that burns bright and illumines the darkness of ignorance.

However, it is an excellent scripture to focus on. We are told we will be co-inheritors with Christ. What does Christ inherit? All that the Father has. What doesn't it include or how is the inheritance limited?

LDS believe the inheritance is complete and full. If is a gift of complete grace and union with the Father and the Son. It is the total realization of the prayer of Jesus when he prayed that we might be one as He and His Father are one. As exalted beings we become the complete servants of God and are worthy of being His instruments in the universe. This includes participating in the creation of new worlds. Hope this helps. Storm Rider ^(talk) 17:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, sarcasm + WP:AGF reduces to humour. Don't think I joke only with things I don't believe in... See, I call the catholic Pope RatzingerZ, for example. Humour is good, always.

What you said is good material, my friend! We should point in the article that the belief derives from those Christ's words. That finishes with my confusion: it's not an introduced belief, but a new interpretation.

Man, I enjoy very much your Christ parodial, I've had some good laughs at it.

We should also add who gave to the church that interpretation: was it Smith? a later leader? What was the context of this introduction in the early history of the church? I mean... was it when Smith ""rewrote"" (I cannot think of a word for it) the New Testament?

God, you Mormons make me mad of curiosity! =D I hope when I finish with you I won't start with muslims, or budhists... --euyyn 02:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Surprisingly this concept began with a general conference talk by Joseph Smith shortly after the funeral of an individual, King Follet. It later came to be known as the King Follett Discourse. This talk was the first talk given by Joseph that really addressed the nature of God, our relationship to him, and exaltation. Though it is not a part of Mormon canon, it is regarded as doctrine.

I believe it to be one of the great discourses on the purpose of creation. Most Christian theology leaves the question in the air without any significant answers...we are created by God to go to heaven to sing praises to God. Some would view this as a rather shallow view of eternity that leaves a major questions, "Why do I have to go through this trial and tribulation so that I can sing praises to God?" and "Why would God need me to sing His praises?".

Exaltation has been expanded upon by other prophets, but at no time has it been completely clarified. Exaltation is closely linked with a concept of eternal progression; our purpose is to progress, to learn, to expand our knowledge for all time and eternity. We do not view eternity as a static existence, but rater dynamic.

I hope this helps. It is a fascinating topic; theosis in the Eastern Orthodox tradition is also fascinating, some of their writings are very similar to LDS writings. There is a lot of denial to that regard, but it is worth reviewing. Cheers. Storm Rider ^(talk) 03:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

This could help

Although we aren't relating fiction, as we're talking about a belief, I think this applies. It's very interesting and gives many examples we can possibly apply to our text. --euyyn 16:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The real reason they beleive soemthing they dont know what it is

The real reason for the reference to it being undefined is the LDS Church's policy of dancing around controversial doctrines. If you read the King FOllet sermon at http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm (hosted at Brigham Young U mind you), you'll see that the founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, taught that God was once a man, lived on an earth, and progressed to the status of deity. He also taught that we as his literal ofspring may also progress to the status of deity and populate our own worlds with our own children. They know as well as anyone that if this was the 1st thing out of the missionaries' mouths, the church would be lucky to have 50 members, instead of the 8million+ they currently have. This is one of the more extreme teachings of the church, of course. There are other very unusual teachings that would turn off many prospective members. A good example is their temple endowment. Members are encouraged to go to the temple to receive their endowments (the term is a referens to being endowed with power from on high). At best, they will tell you that in the temple they learn certain things that enable them to pass the angels that stand as guards at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom, as well as be sealed to their families for eternity, and to do these same things for their dead relatives. WHen it boils down to it, the endowment is about learning hand signs and secret handshakes and passwords, many of which appear to be stolen from Freemasonry. Up until a few years ago there weere also penalties wehre they were made to promise that they would rather have their throats slit rather than reveal the contents of the ritual. That was slowly toned down over the years from specifically saying that they would rather have their throat slit, to just drawing the thumb across the throat from ear to ear, to being completely eliminated in the early 90s. For reference, there are recordings made surepeticiously in one of their temples on the net as well as stranscripts - see http://www.lds-temple.org Alienburrito 00:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito

After you make an edit it is best to sign your post by typing four tildes "~". First, the King Follet discourse was given by Joseph Smith at a funeral. It focuses on the nature of God and the purpose of creation. The topic of this article is THEOSIS; not the nature of God.

What you are seeking to do is sensationalize LDS beliefs. Your edits say nothing that the article did not already say; except you seek to go off topic and sensationalize what are LDS beliefs. LDS believe the purpose of creation is not the desire of God to have a flock of sycophants that spend eternity singing his praises. In LDS theology, it is believed that God created his children for a purpose; often stated as "to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of man". Through Jesus Christ we become co-inheritors. LDS believe that means we inherit what Jesus inherits.

To sensationalize beliefs is POV and not acceptable. It would be similar to saying that orthodox Christians are cannibals that eat the flesh and drink the blood of their God every week. That is an accurate statement, but its tone and perspective are meant to demean, deride, and belittle the sacred. I caution you that Wikipedia is not a soapbox and it is not a place to grind an axe. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 21:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Exactly what is it that you want to say that is not already said in the this article. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 21:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I am seaking to explain exactly what the lds beleive about the idea of exaltation. I'm sorry you chose to spin that as sensationalism. And frankly, if you read the king follet sermon, you'll realize that the LDS view of the nature of God is essential to their concept of exaltation. And both are essential to why they dance around the issue to outsiders. Stormrider, your comments are blatalty missrepresenting my comments, and are unnacceptable.Alienburrito 00:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito

And I don't think i've said anything that adds much to the actuall article, other than perhaps clarify why the LDS tend to say thinjgs like "the concept is not clearly defined" Alienburrito 00:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito

Thank you for your response. Please do not confuse the issue; you were spinning and attempting to sensationalize the concept of theosis in the LDS religion. The King Follet discourse is not part of the canon of the LDS church or part of its doctrine; however, it would be appropriate to say that some of its principles are part of LDS theology.

The nature of God has nothing to do with the LDS concept of exaltation. The church teaches that God the Father allows his children to progress eternally. We can progress first and only through Jesus Christ. What Jesus Christ offers all of his followers is to be co-inheritors. LDS describe that concept as becoming gods; you might want to do a search in the Bible for the number of times humanity is called sons of God or simply gods. At no time does LDS theology or certainly its doctrine teach that we will become equal to God. He is our God and will be our God for all eternity; the concept of exaltation is complete union with Him and to live eternally in His presence.

I would agree; your addition added nothing to the article and that is the reason I reject it. Everything you stated is already stated; however, you chose to use sensational language very common on rather low-quality anti-Mormon websites. To go further than what LDS scripture says is to go further than the church states as doctrine. Let's just stick with doctrine and not supposition or areas where there has not been perfect clarity. My edits are doctrinal. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 02:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Stormrider - please do not confuse the issue and try and accuse me of spinning and sensationalization. The King Follet discourse may not be part of LDS Scripture, but it's very clearly part of the teachings of the founder. Your commets are very typical of responses from mormon apologists who try and misrepresent the teachings of the Church. Joseph Smith was very clear about his teachings - that God was once a man, who became god, and that humans can also become Gods. I guess you can say that teachings of the founder of the LDS church aren't part of what the church refers to as the Standard Works - the Bible, The Book of Mormon, etc, but how can they not be authoritative? The Church regularly promotes themselves as not needing to rely soley on scripture and the often confusing nature of scripture, because they have a prophet who speaks for God, and can reveal clearifications, elaborations, and even new doctrine when neccesary. For example, Apostle Dalin Oaks said in the February 1995 church Magazine Ensign:

What makes us different from most other Christians in the way we read and use the Bible and other scriptures is our belief in continuing revelation. For us, the scriptures are not the ultimate source of knowledge, but what precedes the ultimate source. The ultimate knowledge comes by revelation. With Moroni we affirm that he who denieth revelation “knoweth not the gospel of Christ” (Morm. 9:8).

The word of the Lord in the scriptures is like a lamp to guide our feet (see Ps. 119:105), and revelation is like a mighty force that increases the lamp’s illumination manyfold. We encourage everyone to make careful study of the scriptures and of the prophetic teachings concerning them and to prayerfully seek personal revelation to know their meaning for themselves.

It's very clear that the LDS Church teaches that they rely on more than just scripture for their teachings, that they beleive that they have prophets that recieve revelations from God, and those teachings are also accepted even if they aren't part of the Scriptures. Frankly, Stormrider, your edits and comments are standard LDS spin for outsiders, dancing around the true teachings of the church to avoid turning off ousiders. My edits elaborating on the teachings of Joseph Smith and other LDS Prophets will continue. Alienburrito 21:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Alienburrito

Well, as long as at least some of the quote from the King Follet sermon stays there, I won't mess with it without discussing it. Thanks for leaving at least some of it there, stormrider. I do wonder though, if the orthodox commenter over on the theosis discussion page isnt right, should we move the details of the LDS concept of exaltation here? but at least add a "see also" entry? I know i've discussed the LDS beliefs with people, only to have the concept of theosis pointed out, so i think it would be a good idea to at least point people to a page about it. Alienburrito 23:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito

Not a very original response, but at least you can parrot. I would recommend when attempting to explain your position to not simply copy the words of another editor; it shows a remarkable lack of creativity at most.

The point you consistently miss is staying on the topic. You have been editing Theosis, but for some unknown reason you post your position on this page. If there is a disagreement on the Theosis article, post your comments to that page. TO have already been corrected on this once it makes me think you are not seeking to come to consensus for a positive editing experience.

Your entire edit has nothing to do with Theosis or Exaltation. You are addressing the nature of God. To address that issue you should look at Mormonism and Christianity, Criticism of Mormonism, Mormon cosmology, Anti-Mormonism, and Teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr.. Feel free to add it to these; however, you will find that it is already mentioned in all of them.

Also, you should review what Wikipedia is not. Long continuous quotes are not ideal. This is not a place for you to grind an axe, "preach" the truth, or enforce your POV. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 02:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait - let me get this straight stormrider - I'm unorigional and paroting someone when I say they might have a good point? So if i end up saying that YOU have a legitimate point, will i be parroting you? Will I be unorigional? I've been posting some of my thouguhts here, and on you're page, because to be honest you and I have had a disagreement, and it seemed this page might be a good place to get some input from several people, not just you. I did'nt realize seeking the input of someone besides you would be a problem. The orthodox poster over on Theosis had a really good point - that the LDS view might not belong there. The LDS view should be discussed somewhere, perhaps here in Exaltation (LDS Church), with at least a "see also" link. I suggest at least linking the 2 topics if they're put into separate entries because I've had discussions before with LDS where the 2 concepts were linked. Alienburrito 00:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito

Stormrider - i've taken a few days off, and reread some of you're comments. I'm flabergasted at your continued dishonesty. It's very clear that the King Follet sermon teaches about the concept of exaltation. And remember, this sermon was from Joseph Smith Jr, the prophet who started the LDS church. Your insistance that it refers to the nature of God with no reference to the concept of exaltation is blatantly false, apparently deliberately so. If my edits were sensational, its because the teachings of the church are sensational. It's become very clear that your edits here are delibrate attempts to stir up trouble. Alienburrito 07:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito

Taking a few days off and rereading the edits has not improved your understanding of Wikipedia policy. I caution you to assume that other editors always edit in good faith. Second, to accuse another's edits were attempts to "sitr up trouble" is a personal perspective; I would view your edits to have multiple problems. Primarily, you do not understand Wikipeida policy and confuse topics. Understand this, articles about Exaltation or Theosis are intended to be about that specific topic. It is not to talk about the Plan of Salvation, the nature of God according to LDS, or any other topic.

You continue to think that we primarily have a disagreement about beliefs; that is not correct. I would just take a guess and state that since I am actually a LDS of some years and you are not even a Christian and that religion in general has been a main hobby of mine for many years, there is not really a lot about the LDS faith that you can teach me (that is not to say I can not learn from you; I feel like I have to dance on egg shells trying not to offend). Also, please do not project upon the LDS theology an emphasis on doctrine that does not exist. This is a favorite instrument of anti-Mormon literature, which I have also read. It is a dishonest method to sensationalize LDS beliefs by taking beliefs out of context and parsing the statements of leaders.

You are correct however in stating that LDS have sensational beliefs, just as it is sensational to believe that there was once a man called Jesus that was and is the Son of God, who was born of virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, but rose on the third day and that through this atoning sacrifice we can all be forgiven of our sins and only through him can be saved. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 12:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

proposal for rewrite of article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alienburrito/Exaltation_%28LDS_Church%29#Ordinances

comments please, and please help me fill in the small number of missing citations

Alienburrito 07:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito

I think some distinction should be drawn between "going to" (for lack of a better word) the celestial kingdom and exaltation. The two are not synonymous. Only those in the "highest degree" of the 3 degrees within the celestial kingdom are those who are exalted. Thus, it appears that a person may be able to NOT receive some of the "saving ordinances" (eg: sealing to a spouse) and still go to the celestial kingdom, which kind of contradicts what's in your draft. Exaltation is a kind of bonus that is in addition to receiving the celestial kingdom, which is living in presence of God. It's above and beyond a basic reward of the celestial kingdom and the article should indicate this. This omission is not your fault as I see the original article doesn't really address it. –SESmith 07:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

SeSMITH - interesting - that's a twist on the topic I've never run across before. 2 twists actually. In all the years i've been reading up on this subject, I've never run across anything that indicates the lds beloeve you can get into the Celestial Kingdom without the temple marriage. One caveat on that though, I have a vague recall of reading that perhaps people from the lower kingdoms might be servents to those in the Celestial kingdom.

As far as equating the Celestial Kingdom with Exaltation, you do have a good point now that I think about it. I suppose once you get to the Celestial Kingdom, eternally progressing past that point is optional and totally up to the individual. I can't think of a reference in LDS literature though that makes the distinction. Then again, of course, most of their public material these days deliberately vague on points like this.

I'll do some digging, and I'd apreciate it if you would too, to find some references somewhere for this. Alienburrito 21:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito

I guess the basic starting point for this concept would be Doctrine and Covenants 131:1-4, which indicates there are 3 degrees in the celestial kingdom, and in order to enter the highest an individual must enter a celestial marriage. Verse 4 suggests that others who are not celestially married can go to the other degrees of the celestial kingdom. This Sunday School lesson makes it clear that celestial marriage is necessary for exaltation, but it does not discuss the concept that other non-exalted can go to the celestial kingdom. For that distinction, see this lesson under "celestial", where it says "Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple. All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever."

This source—the Gospel Principles manual—is a great source for finding basic doctrines that the LDS Church accepts. It covers most topics and has fairly good references to where the doctrine comes from in LDS scriptures. –SESmith 22:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The part about the non-exalted being servants of the exalted is probably "doctrinal folklore" that some LDS have believed and taught; I'm not positive where it would be found. I'll think about that and see if I can find anything. I'm fairly sure it's not accepted doctrine of the LDS church and is not found in LDS scripture anywhere. –SESmith 22:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

• The phrase in your intro: "and have their own worlds to rule as gods" is not supported by any doctrinal statements of the LDS Church or one of its presidents that I can find. I can find things that say exalted persons will be gods and they will have spirit children, but nothing about creating worlds, etc. Sound like another piece of "folk doctrine". Without a reliable citation, it should probably be removed. –SESmith 03:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
• Could you also please provide a reference for this phrase in the intro: "as becoming literally deities". The only place in the writings of Joseph Smith where deities was used, that I could find, was History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 3: p. li-liii where Joseph discussed the numerous deities of the ancient world. Also, you seem to enfer that we will become equal to God the Father; that is not an accruate respresentation of LDS doctrine or theology. LDS believe in the concept of eternal progression; that progression is the path for all righteousness. This progress is an eternal venture or path; it ends for none except those who committ the unpardonable sin. You may want to check out an article that does a good job of synthesizing LDS concept of progression and exaltation. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 06:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

That's true as well, and goes to the difference between saying someone becomes a "god" vs. saying they become a "deity". Smith said men could become "gods" but he never said they could become "deities". My intuitive sense is that there is a difference between the two, but I'm not sure what it is. It may be that "deities" are objects of workship whereas "gods" are not, but that doesn't sound quite right necessarily, since people can and do worship "gods". Any ideas on the difference, Storm Rider? –SESmith 06:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, the use of the phrase "literally deities" is problematic. Even if we say "deity = god" and grant that the usage of "deities" is OK here, what is the cite for Smith or anyone else saying the concept of exaltation is a literal event that takes place? Just saying it happens does not mean the person who said it even meant it to be interpreted literally. There's absolutely no point to including that adjective unless there is a good reason to do so. –SESmith 06:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is similar to yours; deity is the being that I/we worship. When I use worship in this context I am going beyond reverence and limiting the conversation to prayer. This is probably a glaring shortcoming in my analysis because LDS obviously reverence all three members of the Godhead. However, LDS do not ever confuse the roles of the three members; they are not interchangable. Again; there are exceptions in terminology here. The term Father can be applied to the Son; he was the creator and thus could rightfully be called Father and has been. However, just as Jesus himself maintained a distinctly separate identity (he prayed always to the Father and I am not aware of any instance when he prayed to himself) there is a oneness that is beyond our understanding.

AN ASIDE: This is an interesting subject for LDS because I think you would find some fascinating responses. I believe you will find that the church will teach that the Godhead is what we worship; Father, Son and Holy Ghost; each is worthy of worship. However, when I reflect on my own experience there is never any confusion about who I pray to; it is always the Father. I think that would be the response for the majority of LDS people. When you look at Christianity at large there is an interchangability between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. When you hear Protestant prayers they will often address both Father and Son, but in such a way as they are the same. I can readily see how they worship all at once. LDS reverence the Savior, religiously, but He is not the object of prayer. He is the conduit, the intermediary, through which we approach the Father; but He is not the Father for LDS.

Agreed on the "literally"; that terminology is not found among LDS theologians to my knowledge. I could be wrong, but I have no recollection of this in any of my reading of church history. I think it is POV and begins to enter the realm of the sensational that our critics are so enamored by. It recontextualizes LDS beliefs into something that becomes unrecognizable by LDS. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 06:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)