Talk:Movses Kaghankatvatsi

Movses of Kalankatuyk wrote the history of Caucasian Albania, so naturally the page falls into History of Azerbaijan category as well. Atabek 22:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC) Grandmaster, please elaborate by quote of him being Albanian. General consensus is he is Armenian, and unless your source satisfactorily exceptional on the topic, I disagree with keeping reference on him being "Albanian." I mean, he did after all write in the Armenian language, not in "Aluani" - pretty clear indication. Hetoum I 11:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

So what if he wrote in Armenian? Vladimir Nabokov wrote in English, was he ethnically English? This is from K.Trever, one of the top experts on Albania:

На армянском языке написан первый и единственный труд, посвященный истории Албании, - "История Албании" Моисея Каланкатуйского (Мосес Каланкатваци). Труд этот дошел до нас в нескольких списках и состоит из трех частей; он упоминается армянскими писателями XII--XIII вв. Автор, уроженец сел. Каланкатуйк в области Утик, был по происхождению либо утийцем (албаном), писавшим на армянском языке, либо армянином, что весьма возможно, так как в этот период Арцах и большая часть Утика были уже арменизованы.

К.В. Тревер. ОЧЕРКИ ПО ИСТОРИИ И КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ IV В. ДО Н. Э. - VII В. Н. Э. (источники и литература) -- изданиe Академии наук СССР, М.-Л., 1959

She says that, Movses, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either uti (Albanian), who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian. Grandmaster 11:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

No Grandmaster, this is what she says.

Movses, native of the village of Kalankatuyk in Utik, was either Uti (Albanian) who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is very likely, because during at that time Artsakh and greater part of Utik were Armenianised.

Just another one of your selective quotations. VartanM 03:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

How it is selective, when I provided a full quote from the source? Grandmaster 05:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Many users here don't speak Russian, and by translating the only part where it suits your needs, is pov pushing. VartanM 06:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it’s not. WP:AGF. I had no time for translating the whole text, I only translated the relevant part. The rest has nothing to do with Movses. Most Armenian users speak Russian, so if I wanted to conceal any info I would not be providing the whole quote in the first place. Grandmaster 07:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

So by your logic him being very likely Armenian and not just maybe Armenian is not relevant. I know at least three active Armenian users who don't speak Russian. As for WP:AGF I did nothing wrong, only pointed out your mistake [1]. To avoid such unpleasant conversation in future, please translate the whole quotation. VartanM 07:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The source says that he was either of the two, and actually gives preference to his Albanian origin, as I have another quote where the same scholar calls him Albanian. I chose this one to show that there are 2 versions of his origin. I was short of time while posting here, and sometimes I don't even translate the Russian quotes, as Armenian users are mostly fluent in Russian. In the future I will provide full Russian translation for any quotes, since it is a problem for you. Grandmaster 07:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

How is a source where it says "He was either Uti (Albanian) who wrote in Armenian, or Armenian, which is very likely" gives preference to his Albanian origin? Is this the source your talking about? [2] The same scholar shows doubt about his Albanian origin and then says that his Armenian. I have no problem with your Russian sources, but some users not necessarily Armenian would probably have difficulty understanding it. VartanM 08:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Here:

Наиболее ценным источником является "История албанов" Моисея Каланкатваци, по-видимому, албана по происхождению, труд которого дошел до нас на армянском языке; он написал в VII в. две первые книги этой хроники, третья же принадлежит перу другого автора, жившего в X в.

Source: К ВОПРОСУ О КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ (доклад на XXV Международном конгрессе востоковедов, 1960 год), К.В.ТРЕВЕР, член-корр. АН СССР

The most valuable source is History of Albanians of Moses Kalankatvatsi, apparently Albanian by origin, whose work survived to our days in Armenian, he wrote in VII century the first 2 books of this chronicle, and third one was written by another author, who lived in X century. Grandmaster 10:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

MarshalBagramyan, your last edit has refrence to non-neutral source while you have reverted neutral source. --Dacy69 21:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Marshall, Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia in Armenian language is something most people are unable to verify. Great Soviet Encyclopedia is a lot better, at least it is available for everyone to check. Why don't you use reliable third party sources and why did you delete references to Minorsky and Trever, who are a lot more reliable than your source? Vladimir Minorsky is a top international expert in the ancient history of the region, you cannot simply delete a reference to him. Grandmaster 05:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You have a convoluted understanding of what a third party source is (as the SAE obviously is, whether it's written in Armenian or not), and there is no such rule, as I have been explaining this to you for one year now yet you have been unable to understand this, that stipulates that we only stick with them.

I don't see the problem either: they don't contradict one another although Minorsky cleverly plays it safe with his wording by not going into the matter of his identity by mentioning only location and language. In any case, it says Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia, not the Great Armenian Encyclopedia. You can twist the rules all you like as you have for all this time you have been on Wikipedia by maintaining your faux "third-party" line every time you hear something you don't like in a certain source, but this has become a nauseating habit of you constantly suppressing sources strictly because of the ethnic basis of the authors, and never on the content of what they say. --Marshal Bagramyan 19:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

GM, Trever deserves much more corroborating sources to bear inclusion. Currently, a Google search on him shows him being quoted all over by Azeri websites [3]. Some even show that he is quoting Farida Mamedova and other Azeri sources. --Marshal Bagramyan 17:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

She does not quote Mamedova because her article was written in 1960s. And Armenian origin is not prevailing opinion, Minorsky does not call Movses Armenian, and he was one of the top experts on the region. Camilla Trever is one of the leading Russian specialists on Albania, and you cannot simply remove an alternative opinion from the article just because you don't like it. Grandmaster 19:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

MarshalBagramyan, good job on providing neutral sources on Movses being possibly Armenian, out of which 2 are Armenian sources, but why would you delete the neutral source on him being possibly Albanian. There is nothing wrong with presenting the evidence alleging that he might have been both and including that in the article. It's not like he's Serzh Sarkissian or somebody alike whose Armenian background can't be contested. The guy has lived and wrote very long time ago.

I would appreciate if we could include both version as before. Ehud 19:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Fringe opinions are allowed to be discarded. In either case, Trever needs to work on her consistency, as she offers differing opinions on Kaghankatvati's ethnicity from one publication to another. --Marshal Bagramyan 22:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Bagramyan, according to Minorsky, indeed an expert on regional history, Kalankatuatsi lived in Caucasian Albania, hence was a Caucasian Albanian historian who wrote in Armenian. Similarly, William Saroyan is an American writer. Atabek 01:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That argument makes no sense whatsoever. If you live in one country you don't necessarily have to be from that country. VartanM 03:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Please explain why opinion of Trever and Minorsky is fringe and why it was deleted from the article? Kamilla Trever was a notable Russian scholar, academician, corresponding member of Russian Academy of Sciences and historian with international reputation. Here’s her profile from the official website of the Russian Academy of Sciences: [4] Her work was praised by international experts. For example, David M. Lang wrote:

Particularly valuable is Kamilla Trever's Ocherki po istorii i kulture Kavkazskoi Albanii (1959).

David M. Lang. Reviewed Work(s): The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci. by Movses Dasxuranci; C. J. F. Dowsett. Slavic Review, Vol. 22, No. 1. (Mar., 1963), p. 136.

So why the opinion of Trever should be discarded and completely removed from the article? The same with Minorsky, a scholar with international fame. --Grandmaster 10:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't how many times we have to repeat this. Trever maintains both positions, (she changed her mind) so did Minorsky. Do you have any authors who claim him to be Albanian and not Armenian? If yes quote them please. On the other hand, most sources claim him to be an Armenian. Heres one more: The Second Russian Attack on Constantinople by A. A. Vasiliev, Dumbarton Oaks Papers, Vol. 6. (1951) p.181. You won't achieve anything by reporting every single edit done by user:MarshallBagramyan. As he said to you, propose something reasonable but there is no way in the world you will present a minority and majority position as equally valid.VartanM 15:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

You don’t know what majority and minority views are, this should be sourced info. Check this: [5] You should attribute views to sources making a certain claim. But removing opinion of K.Trever and V.Minorsky from the article is not an option. Here’s another quote from Trever, where she says Movses was Albanian:

Наиболее ценным источником является "История албанов" Моисея Каланкатваци, по-видимому, албана по происхождению, труд которого дошел до нас на армянском языке; он написал в VII в. две первые книги этой хроники, третья же принадлежит перу другого автора, жившего в X в.

Source: К ВОПРОСУ О КУЛЬТУРЕ КАВКАЗСКОЙ АЛБАНИИ (доклад на XXV Международном конгрессе востоковедов, 1960 год), К.В.ТРЕВЕР, член-корр. АН СССР

The most valuable source is History of Albanians of Moses Kalankatvatsi, apparently Albanian by origin, whose work survived to our days in Armenian, he wrote in VII century the first 2 books of this chronicle, and third one was written by another author, who lived in X century.

Here’s the quote from Georgian scholar Zaza Aleksidze:

The Albanian historian Moses Kalankatyatsi's (Moses Daskhurantsi) work is available in a 10th c. Armenian version. The author wrote his work in the 7th c. and he names the nations that had their own script at that time and mentions Albanian language among them. [6]

--Grandmaster 06:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I readded info on possible Albanian origin of Movses, as well as info from Minorsky, Trever, etc. I don’t think there should be any problems with presenting all opinions existing in the scholarly circles. Grandmaster 10:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Armenian

LOL, Welcome back Hetoum jan, I think you went overboard with the sources. Did you spend your vacation traveling across the globe and visiting the libraries? :) --VartanM 01:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Finally rewrote this article to accurately reflect on this person in detail and actually wrote on something other than about the silly notion of him being Albanian.

I did actually go overboard since some people apparently questioned the Armenian identity of this individual. I need not repeat what was said about this obscure Trever. On this goofy Zaza fella. He does the exact same thing calls him Armenian and Albanian in the same work - consistency please. Not to mention the more serious problem of this person calling Kirakos Gandzaketsi and Gosh as "Caucasian Albanians."

Even Turkish sources call him Armenian. None of the sources you provided fall in under Wikipedia exceptional claim-source criteria. Best information on this author was Hacikyan on classical armenian authors, discussing this individual in detail. If Anyone here is uncertain of this individual's ethnic identity, looking at a few books should easily wield 40-60 more sources calling him Armenian.Hetoum I 01:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

There are sources which claim alternative opinion and you does not have right to remove them. Wikipedia should include various versions. So, I rv back, you are welcome to add your sources but don't remove other sources.--Dacy69 16:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Dacy your removal of sourced information was uncalled for. The same argument you used for the your revert is applied to you. Instead of removing and reverting the article you should add the information you think Hetoum left out. Hetoum spent 2 hours working on this article you should respect that instead of blindly reverting. You are welcome to add your sources but don't remove other sources. --VartanM 16:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

To add to Vartan M - At this point what you are doing is no longer removal of sourced information but wholesale vandalism. The article was completely re-written, making the topic more understandable. I even added an image, which you took out blindly

As for your sources, they lack serious credibility, have no base or explanation for their conclusion and represent only 2 weird conclusions opposed to over 60. At this point it is not even a fringe point. There is no "2 sides" to represent equally and fairly. There are 2 morons calling an Armenian manuscript's author "Albanian" without any base. I am sure I can find some sources that say Jessica Biel is a lesbian, or Dennis Rodman is really a shemale, but there is a reason why those things do not find their way into Wikipedia as sources. I am sure you have been on Wiki long enough to understand exceptional and verifiable sources. Do you see where I am going with this?Hetoum I 18:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)