Talk:Croatisation: Difference between revisions

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This article was nominated for deletion on November 24, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

I don't know, but this article has a very propagandistic feel to it. It's a compilation of assumptions or daring statements, which are not backed up by any kind of source or information. It wouldn't surprise me, if the author of this article wrote it with the purpose of legitimating greater-serbian theories.

Put tag up because:

Subject itself is POV;
Written by unknown person;
Quotes site reporting on testimony given by biased source;
Requires more sources;
Makes unquantifiable and unverifiable claims re Serbs trader coverting - indeed it claims were forced to convert to Roman Catholicism, a claim if verifiable, does not constitute change in ethnicity. Nor is forced the right term because it did not constitute a campaign to change ethnicities in territories outside it's control, but rather a condition of citizenship of it's state.

In the Croatian context it would cove I think a different style of article article linked to the Croatia or Demographics of Croatia and titled Demographic History and Social Integration of Croatia. It would cover the tendency of minority groups to adopt aspects of the mainstream (as covered generally in Social integration. In the Croatian context it would cover Hungarian, Austrian, Vlach, Serb and one notable Polish-Slovak Slavoljub Penkala & Brazilian Eduardo da Silva immigrant that adopted the Croat national identity and Vlach immigrants that adopted the Serb identity.

It could also cover the experience of integration of Croat immigrants in their new homeland - USA, Canda, South America, Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

I don't know about that. The problem here is that this term is rather modern and negative one, it mainly refers to aggressive attempts of assimilation of other ethnic groups, namely Serbs during the 'World War 2'. As such this article should reflect that and I have made some changes about it. When we speak about peaceful and voluntary assimilation and social integration of various ethnic groups such as Germans, Slovaks, Czechs, Hungarians, etc. some other articles other than this should be used. --Factanista 08:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As the article stands, I'll have nominated it for deletion because it clearly is POV, represents propaganda and WP:POINT. iruka 17:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Full support. --PaxEquilibrium 18:32, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This text is completely - missing the point.
"Croatization", in Croatian, has positive meanings. E.g., like croatizing of foreign words, just like the French do with anglisms.
If you look at this from the point of assimilation of persons, neither from that side, this term that has negative conotations. Assimilation could mean that the majority in some community has accepted minority as part of themselves.
But this article is purposely written. Ordinary anti-Croat propaganda, and as such, it should be deleted. Kubura 08:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding croatisation

Croatisation is a useful article. I expanded it a lot, adding the Illyrian Movement, but it should be expanded even further to include the recent croatisation of several sportsmen. I'm not well-versed in sports, but names like Da Silva or Peshalov come to mind. I'll write that chapter if nobody else wants to.

I deleted the paragraph called "Croatisization (sic!) against Italians", since it had only one sentence which had nothing to do with the title. This is how it went: The Italian communities of Istria and Dalmatia are today reduced to a minimum part of their original size. The most of Italian left the present day Croatia during the Istrian exodus, after World War II. This is an article about croatisation, not the Italian exodus. If any Italians were croatised, the appropriate chapter should be added, of course.

I also removed inappropriate links under "See also". Ustasha are quite relevant for croatisation, so I left them. But Jasenovac (an extermination camp) and Operation Storm (a military operation) have nothing to do with croatisation. --Zmaj 13:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation for my revert of Giove's changes

Number one reason is that his changes decreased the quality of this arcile substantially. Second is the matter of Istrian Exodus which hardly has anything to do with this article but more with ideological persecution after the World War II. Great number of Croats was executed and exiled as well also. Croatisation is when someone who is not of Croatian descent becomes a Croat, wheter willingly or by force. Exiling people (done by Yugoslavian regime) is certainly not such case. Third I seriously doubt in nature of his changes, definately doesn't seem to me like WP:AGF. --No.13 15:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Similar aticles show I ws correct. See the list in the article cultural change.--Giovanni Giove 10:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What similar articles? You are trying to insert POV statements in this article. The ideological persecution and exiles of Italians, Germans, Hungarians, Croats and others during the communist Yugoslavia don't have nothing to do with this article. Also we have documentation and ICTY judgements where the responsibility for most of Serbian minority leaving Croatia lays completely or mostly on their leadership and on Milošević. --No.13 15:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is part of the Croatisation. See italianisation, germanization of whatever you want. If you think that Serbian left their homeland on your own, tell your opinion, but don't hide the fact.--Giovanni Giove 15:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No it is not. Your statement is POV which implies to the reader what actually happened despite facts saying otherwise. That is called propaganda. Similar situation with exile of Italians from Yugoslavia which has absolutly nothing with this article. If I didn't know better I'd say this some insane capaign of yours to prove how Croats are "genocidal maniacs". If so I would like to remind you that no nation can be held for genocide, only individuals and ideologies. --No.13 15:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are wrong beyond any evidence. I will do the poper steps. I waste my time to discuss with you.--Giovanni Giove 15:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is YOU DO NOT DISCSUSS, YOU ENFORCE. That is the main problem here. How about you start discussing your changes, provide sources and prove me and everyone else wrong if you are so sure. The way you are behaving now is disruptive and offensive.--No.13 16:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

N°13

Stop to troll and try to do some decent comments!... stop the 'edit war' game!--Giovanni Giove 15:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No it is you who should stop vandalizing articles and enforcing your opinion on others. Wikipedia is NOT YOUR PLAYGROUND. --No.13 15:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to discuss with you... as you like.--Giovanni Giove 15:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then discuss, start with providing actual sources for your claims. --No.13 15:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That what I did. But you want do judge on your own what to say in this article.--Giovanni Giove 15:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Believe it or not but Wikipedia is all about consensus, people actually have to agree with will be in the articles. You are not some holy cow which has the final word in everything. You need to discuss and prove that your position is the right one until agreement has been made. Until now I have not seen you doing this in any article, that is why you are constantly edit warring. Change your ways. --No.13 16:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus that your reach with edit war with the other Croatian users (I shall remember that I am alone vs. 10 Croatian nationalists).... just to hide your own crimes. Very honest, indeed!--Giovanni Giove 17:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The edit wars are your product and direct consequence of your inability or lack of will to actually discuss your changes. This is especially imporant because you are actually basing your edits on your personal opinion with murky or no sources. And please do not be rude, calling people nationalists because they disagree with your POV is offensive. You can be reported for that. --No.13 18:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cool! Istrian Exodus is my personal opinion, just like the Serbian exodus from Krajina... Just like Jasenovica Camp.... and just like Ante Gotovina (poor innocent boy, sent in jail by the anticroatian 'complot').--Giovanni Giove 21:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Istrian Exodus has nothing to do with Croatisation. Neither do the events in the Croatian War of Independence. Jasenovac concentration camp is already mentioned in the article. Don't see what Ante Gotovina has with this article even less. --No.13 21:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of fact this is YOUR opinion, you have no consensus, and you give no reasons for your claim.--Giovanni Giove 22:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't need a consensus. It is not me changing this article but you. Besides I gave you the reasons for my revert of your edits, it's on this page and has the title "Explanation for my revert of Giove's changes". Read it again. You still haven't provided any explanation for your actions though. --No.13 22:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You give no reason. Istrian exodus IS a form of croatisation. And you give no a decent reason to dany this matter of fact, just you said that according to you is something else... Ante Gotovina is a war criminal responsable for an ethnic cleaning, internationally recognized, which WAS a croatisation...--Giovanni Giove 22:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok are you dimwitted? What exactly is your problem? You don't understand English, is that it? How is Istrian exodus form of Croatisation? An ideological persecution and exile of Italians by the communists, Partisans who persecuted Croats and executed them by thousands after WWII wanted to Croatise Italians? ROTFLMAO. Next the term Croatisation is when you try to make someone of non-Croat origin a Croat, wheter by force or willingly. Purging, exiling, forcing someone to leave, voluntary exile and so on have no such goal. I have pointed out these facts to you several times already. Ante Gotovina is not a war criminal, he is a suspect for war crimes, under international law every person is innocent until proven otherwise. Ethnic cleansing can not be any form of Croatisation, Italianization, Frenchification because they don't have a goal turning someone into Croat, Italian, French. The goal of Croatisation is Cultural assimilation not ethnic cleansing. --No.13 22:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's suppose for now you are right, the disappearing of Italian from Dalmatia was a Croatisation (don't say it is a legend, I've introduced a source), that you have reverted. Furhtemore there is the forced assimilation of the Italians reamined in Yuogsavja.... everything deleted with your indiscusse massive reverts. No comment about the 'ideological' perscution.. it was an ethnic persecution. Ante is still innocent?....here u are right: even Eichmann was innocent till the sentence...--Giovanni Giove 22:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not suppose, I am right. Now wheter this will sound to you as an arrogant statement I do not care, but that is a fact. Even if there were Italians left in Dalmatia (remember official Austrian census gave no number greater than 15-20 thousands Italians in Dalmatia) if they assimilated and started to identify as Croats it was minor and does not deserves mention in this article. About Partisan exiles and execution post-WWII: tell me, if it is ethnic persecution as you say, for which you obviously blame Croats (don't know based on what), then how the hell did the Bleiburg massacre happen? The Partisan did retribution to all who they percieved as enemies, they didn't care for their nationality. Since Italians in Istria and Dalmatia were widely supportive of Italian Fascist forces which in turn led an aggressive Italianization policy they were seen as enemies after the war. Similar situation was with Hungarians and Germans in Bačka and as well with anti-communist Croats. Anyway even if you are right (which you are not) that is not cultural assimilation and so doesn't belong on this article.--No.13 23:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Go on to study in your Yugoslavian books... that's the result. Buy an excellent English book and open your eyes. BTW even former partisans left Istria (that don't appear in Y. books, of course). The census you mention was the last, after the process of assimilation, and your numbers are no so correct... but of course you don't want to reach an agreement... you just want to performe a disurbing action.--Giovanni Giove 23:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not study from Yugoslavian books, I study from Croatian books. I am aware that certain people who joined the Partisans in lack of other notable anti-fascist forces later disagreed with the actions of communists and became "enemies of the state". The censuses I mentioned are from Austria-Hungary in the period from 1910 to 1918. --No.13 23:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Peaceful assimilation

Small minorities assimilate into the majority or into ruling country's nation.
It's normal process everywhere in the world.
Croatia wasn't independent in 19th century.
In fact, todays Croatia was dismembered in the 19th century between Austrian and Hungarian part of the Monarchy. And, as worse, the official language in littoral provinces was Italian. And still, many of those Italians that came to live in Croatian Littoral assimilated into Croats, some of them before Napoleon's and Habsburg rule.
And already, in 19th century, many of them were the local leaders or important personalities of Croatian Risorgimento, Croat national renaissance (hrvatski narodni preporod), some of them even croatising their name and surname. Kubura 06:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the Age of Croatian national renaissance (that happened at the same time as in the rest of Europe), many Italians have already croatized, although there was no independent nationalist Croatia to impose such rules.
I'll list you here the names of deputies in Dalmatian Diet, when Croat-reunionist party Narodna stranka (National party) won the majority. Narodna stranka was by local pro-italianist party called partito croato (not "partito serbo-croato", not "partito iugoslavo").
Among those deputates, six or seven of them had Italian-sounding surnames.
That doesn't have to mean that all of them were of Italian origin; it could be the case that some of their ancestors were Croats that italianized their surname. Also stays for the other case, with Croat surname. There's a possibility of previous croatization of Italian surname.
Here're some names:
Lovro Monti. In this scientific article by Šime Peričić “O broju Talijana/Talijanaša u Dalmaciji XIX. Stoljeća” (“Concerning the number of Italians/pro-Italians in Dalmatia in the XIXth century”), Zavod za povijesne znanosti HAZU u Zadru, UDK 949.75:329.7”19”Dalmacija), it says that he was of Italian origin. Abstract in English.
Juraj Biankini.
A case of Croat Rafo Arneri. A scientific article Doprinos Rafe Arnerija hrvatskom narodnom preporodu u Dalmaciji (Contribution of Rafo Arneri to Croatian national renaissance in Dalmatia). Work by Šime Peričić, Rad. Zavoda povij. znan. HAZU Zadru, sv. 47/2005., str. 325–340, UDK 949.75:929 R. Arneri. Arneri was a family from Korčula, with origins from Bosnia. Still, at the beginning, Rafo was raised in Italian spirit, so he knew Italian better than Croatian. In order to help Croat cause and Croat reunionist mission, he had to improve the knowledge of his Croatian. Kubura 08:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC) Here's a list of deputates of Narodna stranka (partito croato) from 1870. in Dalmatian Diet. On this link, it mentions the "team" on the photo: party leader Miho Klaić, then following trio Miho Pavlinović, dr. Rafo Pucić and Edvard Tacconi; in a chain around central part: Ivan Danilo, dr. Lovro Monti, dr. Petar Čingrija, dr. Antun Bersa, dr. Josip Antonietti, dr. Konstantin Vojnović, Ivan Desković, Gjorgje Vojnović, Petar Budmani, Josip Kažimir Ljubić, Ivan Vranković, dr. Josip Paštrović, Antun Šupuk, Josip Raimondi, Stefan Ljubiša, dr. Frane Lanza, Krsto Kulišić and dr. Ante Tripalo. At the bottom are Rafo Arneri, Jerotej Kovačević and Vicko Luković, and completely at the bottom, Frane Fontana.[reply]
Kubura 09:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Croatisation of Italians in Dalmatia

Statement about assimilation of Italians in Dalmatia between 1850 and 1914/18 is under very good question. Census data from article Kingdom of Dalmatia for year 1880 are:

371,565 Croats
78,714 Serbs
27,305 Italians

It is if nothing else misleading speak that when school has started to use Croatian language and not Italian is assimilation. Croats have been 77 % of population and it is normal that in school and other public places language is Croatian and not Italian because they are only 5-6 % of population. Be good to answer this question with argument. If there is no answer today tag will be returned.--Rjecina 19:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Austrian empire has started to make census data only in 1880. Data for Italians between 1880 and 1910 are:

1880 27305
1890 16000
1990 15279
1910 18028 +2500 persons which are having Italian passport.--Rjecina 19:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 95: / Line 95: @@
 ''<u>Lovro Monti</u>''. In this scientific article by Šime Peričić [http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak&id_clanak_jezik=18696 “O broju Talijana/Talijanaša u Dalmaciji XIX. Stoljeća”] (“Concerning the number of Italians/pro-Italians in Dalmatia in the XIXth century”), Zavod za povijesne znanosti HAZU u Zadru, UDK 949.75:329.7”19”Dalmacija), it says that he was of Italian origin. Abstract in English.<br>
 ''<u>Juraj Biankini</u>''.<br>
-''<u>Rafo Arneri</u>''. A scientific article [http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak_download&id_clanak_jezik=13315 Doprinos Rafe Arnerija hrvatskom narodnom preporodu u Dalmaciji] (Contribution of Rafo Arneri to Croatian national renaissance in Dalmatia).. [[User:Kubura|Kubura]] 08:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
+A case of Croat Rafo Arneri. A scientific article [http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak_download&id_clanak_jezik=13315 Doprinos Rafe Arnerija hrvatskom narodnom preporodu u Dalmaciji] (Contribution of Rafo Arneri to Croatian national renaissance in Dalmatia). Work by Šime Peričić, Rad. Zavoda povij. znan. HAZU Zadru, sv. 47/2005., str. 325–340, UDK 949.75:929 R. Arneri. Arneri was a family from Korčula, with origins from Bosnia. Still, at the beginning, Rafo was <u>raised in Italian spirit</u>, so he <u>knew Italian better than Croatian</u>. In order to help Croat cause and Croat reunionist mission, he had to improve the knowledge of his Croatian. [[User:Kubura|Kubura]] 08:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
+Here's a list of deputates of Narodna stranka (partito croato) from 1870. in Dalmatian Diet. On this link, it mentions the "team" on the photo: party leader ''Miho Klaić'', then following trio ''Miho Pavlinović'', dr. ''Rafo Pucić'' and ''Edvard Tacconi''; in a chain around central part: ''Ivan Danilo'', dr. ''Lovro Monti'', dr. ''Petar Čingrija'', dr. ''Antun Bersa'', dr. ''Josip Antonietti'', dr. ''Konstantin Vojnović'', ''Ivan Desković'', ''Gjorgje Vojnović'', ''Petar Budmani'', ''Josip Kažimir Ljubić'', ''Ivan Vranković'', dr. ''Josip Paštrović'', ''Antun Šupuk'', ''Josip Raimondi'', ''Stefan Ljubiša'', dr. ''Frane Lanza'', ''Krsto Kulišić'' and dr. ''Ante Tripalo''. At the bottom are ''Rafo Arneri'', ''Jerotej Kovačević'' and ''Vicko Luković'', and completely at the bottom, ''Frane Fontana''. <br>
+[[User:Kubura|Kubura]] 09:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 ==Croatisation of Italians in Dalmatia==