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[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page&oldid=204687025 Archive-1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page&oldid=204687025 Archive-1]
== RfC Input (Beta) ==


These are the points I considered while writing the article.


== Done ==
Kindly point out deviations if any, (give the reference number) for correction, copy the below content for other person to comment.


I think i am done !! I request input from Don and Duty2love to point out or add, if there is anything missing from what i could find about Sahaj Marg. Kindly do not change any content or modify it, feel free to add more references. I am figuring out how to apply for RfC, once i do that. I will file for review of wikipedia policies via RfC.--[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 18:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
* [[WP:NPOV]]
* [[WP:RS]]
* [[WP:V]]
* [[WP:NOR]]
* [[WP:OR]]
* [[Wikipedia:NPOV#Undue_weight|UNDUE]]
* [[WP:CITE]]
* [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Religion|Religion]] --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 10:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

== Purpose? ==
CFW,
Can you tell what is the purpose of this article and what qualifies you to write it? Now that MfD is out, we can no longer ignore what is being put here, would like to contribute positively to keep WP standards. [[User:Duty2love|Duty2love]] ([[User talk:Duty2love|talk]]) 12:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

::What is the purpose of wikipedia ? and what qualifies any person to become an editor on wikipedia ? please point out the deviation from wikipedia standards, <s> do not edit yourself, let me know, i will correct, as the page is still in my user-space</s> --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 12:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


::Till you do not remove any content!!!, feel free to add more, do not modify the wordings, discuss them on talk page first, so that we can zero down to something agreeable --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 12:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

==Archive==
This page is important to those who may review this proposed article and its history. It's way too early to archive. If you archive again I'll take that as a statement that you don't want your statements reflected in the archive, so I'll leave those out and keep the ones I consider important. (like feedback, the inaccuracy of the Brighter world, etc.) [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 13:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

:Well, I consider this a more neutral starting point so I can compromise on that. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 13:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

==Question==

All I am asking is do you have direct experience with this organization and its practice? Simply because one can become editor in Wikipedia, should one write about any subject? Don't you think one should have enough of subject knowledge gained through some experience? More importantly the content must be of consensus. [[User:Duty2love|Duty2love]] ([[User talk:Duty2love|talk]]) 13:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

::We have a policy of [[WP:COI]] for which Renee can be blocked from editing contents of this article, even though I do not have any one to one experience of this cult, but i do understand how cults work in general, and to my pleasant surprise, this cult is no-exception. :). On wikipedia, what matters is references, and i have found them. we need to know, how to use internet, that’s all, BTW I have close to one months of experience of this cult. --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 13:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, I have no COI so will not be blocked. I fear that you and 4d-don do though given the blogs so please be careful. And, having said that, having a COI does not prevent one from editing, only when one edits in a biased manner to promote a POV in line with the COI. By the way, I found this recent arbcomm statement very relevant here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Prem_Rawat/Proposed_decision#General "No sane administrator would advise a Roman Catholic editor not to edit the biography of the Pope, nor advise against any Christian editing the article on Jesus Christ. Unless religious editors clearly edit aimed at winning converts for their religious branch, and cause problems by pushing a religious point of view, I interpret WP:COI as having a strictly limited application in this field]. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 13:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page&diff=200650225&oldid=200645656 This] by no means, is constructive, hence you should stay out from my user-space, Which blog according to you i own ? and i am still waiting for that second court case about the report ! --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 14:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
::Well, it was meant to be. Sorry if you didn't see it that way. All I did is remove the French, try to neutralize some of the text, and then added tags as markers regarding where we'd need to provide references and for where the statements were dubious, trying to signal to you that according to my understanding these were not accurate. I've created several new Wiki articles and it's how I usually start them -- writing the text and putting tags where I'll need to support claims with references. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 14:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

:Cult, do you care one bit if you get it accurate? For example, there are several things in here that even 4d-don can tell you are flat out wrong. (For instance, how you described the brighter world? Ask duty2love, he'll tell you. You're mixing up BK's with this group. See Medium section above.) [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 13:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

::Let 4d-don do that, YOU stay away, pls --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 13:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

==Constructive Feedback==
Dear Cult Free,

If you really want to get this published you'll have to abide by Wiki policies. I'm wondering if you really think you have secondary sources here? I've tried explaining many times before about them and you keep discounting my posts, but please just read the policiies.

For example, here is the definition of a secondary or third-party source, it is one that [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#cite_note-3 ''"analyzes and interprets primary sources", is a "second-hand account of an historical event" or "interprets creative work". It also states that a secondary source "analyzes and interprets research results" or "analyzes and interprets scientific discoveries".'']

But, you are using primary sources (i.e., the initial sources that generated knowledge, like SRCM sites, government reports, court docs. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources All ''interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors'']. When you use them to support claims you make it's called original research. This is what happened on the "medium" section, on the "transmission" section, etc. As a result they're not accurate. (And, as mentioned before, if you don't believe me check out what an admin wrote about court cases [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A4d-don&diff=196192428&oldid=196108128 here].)

So, sources are need that are reliable, that is, have ''a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy''. Further, ''exceptional claims need exceptional sources''. For instance, you use French language sources to make claims the group endorses child abduction when anyone reviewing that is going to see it's a parent vs. parent (not the group). You use Hindi sources when you speak of "capturing" the ashram when Marathi pointed out somewhere that the word could also mean "take possession."

A piece of friendly advice, if you really want to get this published you'd reduce it to a basic stub. You can see just from the feedback that you have on the user page that posting what you're trying to post on mainspace will cause numerous edit wars, blocks, etc., and things wouldn't be allowed.[[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 13:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


::All you do is to mess up with my efforts in my own user-space, once again i am requesting you to stay out. --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 14:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


==Latest batch of edits==

There was less crap in this round of edits.... however the word is "less." [[User:Sethie|Sethie]] ([[User talk:Sethie|talk]]) 14:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

:I restored Cult Free's first paragraph because he has two good references in there (whoo-hoo). The rest is OR and improper sources as you note above. Also, I changed the last sentence to more accurately mirror what is said in the quotation, i.e., must be 18 years and older to practice. Otherwise, that's a good start. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 14:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

::Nice Renee. I knew Shashwat had a few good things in there, I appreciate your willingness to wade through his poop and find the gem.... given his continious and ongoing violation of policy he is not even owed that courtesy, yet you extended it to him. Kudos for you.

::I am pleasently shocked that he found a [[WP:RS]]... in over a year, this is the first time he has done that. Maybe there is hope!

::Even the crap was looking slightly less stinky.... he left out the ridiculous unsourced list of controveries. [[User:Sethie|Sethie]] ([[User talk:Sethie|talk]]) 15:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


:::I really don't understand why you guy's are messing up with my user-space where i am trying to start a new page !!! did you missed the note at MfD ?--[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 16:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


== Request ==

I did not came on wikipedia to get any one blocked from editing, neither did i expected that there are people on wikipedia who would simply refuse to learn from other's, I do not wish to file any notice regarding anyone here, and i do believe people sitting in front of computer have this much of knowledge as disrupting work of other's is by no means going to show them in good light, neither will it demonstrate any good effects of practice offered by these cult's. These type of interruptions [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page&diff=204696392&oldid=204694770] after comments like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Cult_free_world/Proposed_Sahaj_Marg_India] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive395#Continued_harassment_by_Sethie],[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Persian_Poet_Gal&diff=201639284&oldid=201621512], does not indicate healthy attitude. It is expected that people would understand that they are intruding into other user's space, where some-one is working. Sethie, Renee, Marathi_mulga et-al, you all have done your part, by nominated this user-space for speedy deletion twice, nominating it for MfD again, but still i am surprised to see that you continue to vandalize this page, if this page still exist, you MUST understand that it is not violating any rules as you had perceived before, hence your perception this time is also wrong, and with that wrong perception you are violating the spirit of wikipedia. You have stated your objections, several time, and every time it has been rejected, by the community, kindly wait for the RfC comments to come when i file for the same, after finishing the article, it is already in its final shape, just few more correction, kindly learn what is stated by the community and stay away, and let me finish. I do not wish to divert my attention from writing articles to dealing with people on wikipedia, this is not what i have come here for, kindly do not force me to do that what i do not wish to do. Kindly stay away if you cannot add, and are here only to destroy. --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 16:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
:Dear Cult Free World, I ask again, do you care if you get it right? If you do and are working in good faith you would make the changes that Don outlined, i.e., that it's a french report on Sectes and that cult is not the right word (you seem to believe Don)? See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Cult_free_world/Proposed_Sahaj_Marg_India#To_ALL this]. You would also not post libelous and defamatory information (I bet even Don would agree that that Pioneer article is obviously some disturbed lady's fantasy), you would not use anti-secte foreign language blogs as citations (like infosectes or prevensectes), and you would leave in the corrected links (right now they are both wrong, and it's Chennai btw, not Madras). This along with the "medium" stuff, which again, Don can vouch is not a core belief/practice in Sahaj Marg, is just plain wrong. As long as you keep bringing up difs froma month ago and living in the past, we can't move forward. Wiki is a consensus model, you can't tell me to go away. All I've ever requested is that [[WP:V]], [[WP:R]], [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:NPOV]] be adhered to and have demonstrated, with the recent first paragraph revert of Sethie's post, that I strongly believe and follow these policies.
:So, do you care if you get it right? I hope so. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 17:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Renee, try to understand, it is impossible to work with a person having inflexibility of your level, if I am starting an article, nominated for deletion several times by YOU '''only''' it is impossible for me to accept that you can contribute constructively. I will take feedback, not only from Don, but also from other neutral editors, by requesting for RfC, there is a reason why wikipedia had to come up with a policy like [[WP:COI]] and there is a reason why Jossi came out with this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jossi/Response#Declaration_of_intent]. If you can figure out the reason behind them, you can easily understand as why you nominated the page for deletion so many times and disrupted heavily in my efforts, and you will continue to do so, as you have a strong POV regarding this brainwashing cult. BTW if you care to read the proposed article, medium is not central belief, central belief as i understand is transmission, medium is brighter world, and this is view of a person who has observed things from outside, where complete picture is clear, and if you want to believe me, then do, I have deep experience of cults and cultist methodologies, that is in addition to true spirituality, and this is the reason why i understand that everything has a reason for existence, even these cults which are soo harmful for psychological well-beings of victims, rest assured i will come-out with a balanced article, if you stop interrupting and vandalizing and messing up with the page and talk page as well. stay calm. --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 17:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
::::Please review [[WP:NPA]]. Regarding content, the section on mediumship and channeling is untrue, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page&oldid=204687025#Medium_section this]. The "brighter world" is (a) the name of a single, channeled book that the guru notes is novel and new in Sahaj Marg, and separately (b) a euphimistic term (one of many) to refer to where one goes when s/he dies (like the "other side," which is used too). You make it sound like when people die they go and communicate daily with a medium and this just isn't true. You make it sound like there are daily channeled messages when that's not true (the messages are from that ''single'' book). You make it sound like the guru stated in some proclamation that when you all die you'll be reunited in the brighter world and this is not true. Your references don't support your statements. This is why someone changed it, can't remember who, to a very simple statement that actually I think is UNDUE but can live with it, about the book being a channeled book (because it is novel). Since you trust Don and duty2love, ask them if what I say above is the truth. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 20:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
:::::I am still waiting for the link of second court case you have been referring [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page&oldid=204687025#The_newspaper], if you do not have, then accept that you were lying about the second case, only to manipulate people here on wikipedia, else kindly provide the link. --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 17:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

::::::Dear Cult Free, First, please review [[WP:NPA]]. Second, the court case itself says it's a ''high court'' ruling, which means by definition there is a low court ruling. There's always a possibility I may have interpreted it incorrectly but 1-high court case (No.7930 of 2003) + 1-low court case (No.3199 of 2002) = 2 cases.
::::::Third, and most importantly, Wikipedia does not allow excerpts from court cases as evidence, especially excerpts that a judge has said are "self-evident" libelous and defamatory. Even [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research/noticeboard#Plyler_v._Doe_and_U.S._v._Verdugo-Urquidez here], Vassyana notes that rulings can't be quoted because even they are open to interpretation (not to mention testimony and statements by opposing sides). [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANo_original_research%2Fnoticeboard&diff=202020006&oldid=201946208 Here's] another discussion thread about how court cases are primary sources needing secondary sources to be included in an article. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 20:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

== About my reverting..... ==

Editors are obligated to revert [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:3rr#Exceptions to remove clearly libelous material, or unsourced or poorly sourced controversial material about living persons]. On a user page, a user cannot [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:3rr#Exceptions restore copyright violations, libelous material, WP:BLP violations, or other kinds of inappropriate content]. Sethie, you are doing the right thing and I support you. Renee, where are you? Where is the rest of this talk page? This is unethical to hide it? [[User:Marathi mulgaa|Marathi_Mulgaa]] ([[User talk:Marathi mulgaa|talk]]) 19:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


::Better learn some ethics. --[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 19:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

::Learn rather than teaching--[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 19:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

:To Marathi- Shashwat archived it, you can see it at the top of this page. [[User:Sethie|Sethie]] ([[User talk:Sethie|talk]]) 20:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry Marathi. I agree that the material is inappropriate and have taken the strategy of trying to work with Cult Free and explain why (I know, hope springs eternal...). Don't worry, I will revert any libelous, defamatory, and unsourced/unsupported controversial material if need be. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 20:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

:::Does [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page&diff=204780386&oldid=204768923 this] helps ?--[[User:Cult free world|talk-to-me!]] ([[User talk:Cult free world|talk]]) 21:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

::::I suggest everyone assume good faith, start fresh, abide by Wiki policies, and listen to and take part in discussion, as the admin suggests, ''I would hope that Sethie and Marathi mulgaa will also be part of that discussion...'' Blanket denials and ignoring certain users just creates bad will when if we all agree to use verifiable and reliable secondary sources, then there should be no conflict. I am committed to doing that. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 22:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


==an easy thing to correct==
Dear Cult Free, The external links both list the Shahjahanpur site, which apparently doesn't exist anymore since it goes straight to the SRCM-Chennai site. The official sites should be www.srcm.org and www.sahajmarg.org. [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 22:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


==Feedback welcome==
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Cult_free_world/Proposed_Sahaj_Marg_India Here] is a discussion of the libel and defamation issues appearing in this article. In the controversies section the user presents as fact the very allegations that the judge ruled were libelous and defamatory.

There are other places where foreign-language articles are used as sources (i.e., references 9 and 10 in Hindi), yet those familiar with the languages have pointed out the mis-translations. These comments were ignored.

Finally, blogs are used for references 11,12, 37-40, to make salacious unsupported claims (and in French to boot!). As well, selectively chosen text from the group's website or college member's websites are used to make claims that just aren't true. I've tried explaining why, e.g., see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page&oldid=204687025#Medium_section this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Cult_free_world/Proposed_page&oldid=204687025#Review_of_Sources this], but all the user does is attack me in response. Feedback is welcome! [[User:Reneeholle|Renee]] ([[User talk:Reneeholle|talk]]) 00:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:08, 12 April 2008

Archive-1


Done

I think i am done !! I request input from Don and Duty2love to point out or add, if there is anything missing from what i could find about Sahaj Marg. Kindly do not change any content or modify it, feel free to add more references. I am figuring out how to apply for RfC, once i do that. I will file for review of wikipedia policies via RfC.--talk-to-me! (talk) 18:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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