Wikipedia talk:Revert only when necessary

You haven't summarised it in a one-liner yet. Stevage 03:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm still trying to come up with some concise, yet meaningful wording. Any suggestions? Carbonite | Talk 03:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• Good page, but please merge/redirect in from 0RR, 1RR and Wikipedia:Revert. Radiant_>|< 03:15, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• • I'm going to redirect the 1RR very soon. Hopefully the 0RR can also be merged and redirected soon. I think that Wikipedia:Revert needs to remain though, since it has info on the mechanics of a revert, something this page doesn't and shouldn't cover. The sections I took from that page can probably be removed though and replaced with a link to this page. Carbonite | Talk 03:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I object to redirecting 1RR. That's still a valid page people refer to. Dan100 (Talk) 11:56, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Differences between 0RR and ROWN

• ORR encourages editors to improve upon but don't remove changes you don't like, it is unclear whether the "necessary" in "revert only when necessary" applies to changes you don't like or not.
• ROWN perpetuates an "us" vs "them" mentality of one point of view somehow "winning" out over another.
• There is much less chance of direct or inadvertent censorship with 0RR compared to ROWN.
• There is much less chance of viewpoint mischaracterization with 0RR compared to ROWN as 0RR will encourage an article to be a superset of all viewpoints and sources instead of one side stifled into accepting a reverted version of an article.
• The 0RR allows editors to be bold as it encourages the inclusion other editors changes in addition to your own changes, the ROWN discourages being bold.
• Any "reverting" of a fellow editor's changes or additions that were made in good faith can have the effect of stifling contribution to wikipedia and/or inflaming tensions. When not obvious or simple vandalism editors should be given the benefit of the doubt that their contributions add something to an article.
• Clue: some of the editors that have come out against WP:0RR are the ones supporting a merge of that to ROWN... zen master T 19:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Right now, ROWN is a Frankenstein creation of text from many pages. I'm hoping to see much of the 0RR text merged into ROWN so the "revert-limiting" rules can all be in one place. I highly encourage you to mercilessly edit ROWN until you believe it's more satisfactory. Trust me, it needs it. ;) Incorporate as much of the text from other proposals as you feel is appropriate. Once ROWN is in better shape, we can start gauging whether it should be a guideline. Carbonite | Talk 19:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Good idea, I support merging in order to avoid an wildgrowth of guidelines. Only question: should it be titled ROWN or ORR? I guess ORR is best as title because it's more provocative and easier to remember. Next it should be made clear in the text that in practice ORR is not always doable or beneficial - adding superfluous or deviating phrases at certain places can be detrimental for an article. Harald88 22:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that ROWN would be a better title since "Reverting only when necessary" is a superset of 0RR (and 1RR, etc...). Also, as you pointed out, the 0RR is quite often not very realistic in practice. Carbonite | Talk 23:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I would share your thinking if this was either an article or a policy. However, a guideline has different goals, it is foremost to be inspiring and for that a catchy title such as 0RR is much better; a guideline doesn't need to follow the structure of a patent proposal. Anyway, after voting for merging, we may vote for which title to give it; without a merge it's not worth to waste much time on that question. Harald88 00:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Why do you want to merge the 0RR text here if you were/are against 0RR? How does being against 0RR make a merge to ROWN seem reasonable to you? The 0RR is not a "revert-limiting" rule it frees editors from the limitations of thinking in terms of "reverting". zen master T 19:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm actually not against the 0RR. I was against calling it a guideline before editors had even seen the page. That's why I tried to make it a proposed guideline. But that's in the past now. I'm created this more general page as a central location for any of the X-revert rules or other guidelines for avoiding or limiting reverts. This page is still in it's infant stages, so I would welcome any edits that help it to mature. Carbonite | Talk 19:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Only someone that is against something would move it to user space over a header dispute. What you call more "general" I call "ineffectual" and "tangential". Given that 0RR and ROWN are distinct it would be helpful if you withdrew your merge request, let the community decide whether one or both guidelines garner wide spread support. zen master T 20:08, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I've already explained at length that I moved the page because it was not a guideline and Peter expressed no interest in having it as a proposed guideline. But again, that's not especially relevant to this proposal. I'm rather baffled that you criticize a proposal that I've already admited is in "infant stages" and needs to be edited "mercilessly". Why not change the parts you disagree with? I see ROWN as a superset of 0RR (as well as 1RR and other reversion guidelines), not as a replacement. If you believe that ROWN fails at this, please change it. Carbonite | Talk 20:14, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

You mischaracterize Peter's argument when you say "Peter expressed no interest in having it a proposed guideline". Peter's argument was that guidelines are exactly rules of thumb followed by a small or large numer of editors, none of them are "policy". Only policies are proposed, guidelines are simple followed if you agree with the underlying principles. Since ROWN is in its infant stages (and all other reasons) I repeat my request for you to withdraw your merge request. zen master T 20:28, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Let's let the merge proposal run its course. Carbonite | Talk 20:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It's ok by me if you let a tainted merge proposal run its course, though it would make sense to withdraw it given the many differences between the two guidelines. zen master T 20:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• As stated earlier, the 0RR is idealistic and entirely not grounded in reality. People frequently make good-faith-but-ill-advised edits to add to an article. These must be reverted to improve article quality. Anybody who claims otherwise seriously needs to spend an hour on RC patrol, in order to get a clue what he's actually talking about. Radiant_>|< 22:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Misinterpretation of 0RR

I think Radiant may misunderstand the fundamental point of the 0RR guideline. Here he adds "The problem with this 'rule' is that it makes it impossible to get rid of good-faith-but-ill-advised edits, which are plentiful". The point of the 0RR guideline is to give fellow contributors the benefit of the doubt and include their information in addition to any information you want to add. I don't think there is a wikipedia policy that defines "ill-advised edits", what do you mean? The 0RR accounts for the possibility a fellow editors contribution may need re-wording and cleaning up, but the point is to ensure all information and viewpoints are retained. zen master T 23:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

What's so bad about a revert?

I so no reason to have a rule against *individual* reverts. We should all promptly remove certain types of things, such as unverified information. Leaving potential misinformation out of respect for the contributor ignores WP:V. Whie we WP:AGF is a guideline, WP:V is a non-negotiable founding policy. Verifiability means we *don't* assume things to be true, just because somebody says they are. If you say something I doubt, and give no sources, and I can't find any, I'm entitled to revert you. Revert wars are harmful, but individual reverts are often beneficial. They force somebody to actually justify their change. Also, discouraging reverts would merely mean that people would find "imaginitive" means of doing reverts, by doing edits that accomplish the same result, but aren't technically reverts. --Rob 20:09, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct, we shouldn't have a rule against reverts. This proposal wouldn't restrict reverts, but instead encourage editors to avoid reverts unless they're necessary to maintain the quality of an article. Vandalism, unverified information, and just plain terrible edits would qualify as "necessary" for being reverted. This proposal may eventually become a guideline, but never an official policy. The WP:3RR is the Wikipedia's only official policy on reverts and I believe it should stay that way. Carbonite | Talk 20:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The only problem is that the peopple most needing of being reverted will try to claim that this is a rule against reverts and use it to cause more problems. You should really try instead to make a guideline called Wikipedia:Don't make the edit in the first place unless it's necessary. I realize that goes against the whole be bold thing, but the vast majority of edits being made here are ill-advised, and reverting is the best way to handle them. It'd be different if the editors were limited to people with proven writing skills, undertanding of the purpose of an encyclopedia, and knowledge of the topics they edit, but since Wikipedia presumes that anyone and everyone can show up and make whatever change they want, any guideline trying to make it more difficult for people to undo these ill-conceived edits can only be a bad thing. DreamGuy 06:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

No one is suggesting we keep bad changes. But reverts aren't the only way of fixing it. In the case of "just plain terrible edits" it may be possible to reword the edit, but keep some of it. In cases of unverified information, it may be possible to ask the user to check their facts, or add a {{fact}} flag. This guideline is about minimising the use of the ugly slap in the face that is a revert. Stevage 06:58, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Only for Vandals

I only revert for blatant vandalism, otherwise I manually rollback only because it allows me to add an edit summary. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:17, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's a difference between the two :-) Dan100 (Talk) 21:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

1RR redirect problem

In order to judge if it's a good idea to merge (instead of link) 1RR, I need to compare 1RR with ROWN. But instead of 1RR I am redirected to ROWN, without a link in sight! In view of the above objection by Dan100, this has the same effect as sabotage. Either undo the redirect, or add a link. Harald88 00:10, 24 December 2005 (UTC)