Talk:Shiloh Shepherd dog

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Dispute(s)

(*Note to NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, AND ISSDC contributors: Please advise if you concur or disagree with my summaries below):

From everything I have read, it would appear, as evidenced throughout this talk page AND the article edit page, contributors representing the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC registries/clubs, have agreed/compromised/concurred regarding the following:

1)They have agreed/compromised to the inclusion of ALL currently established registries/clubs affiliated with the Shiloh Shepherd dog, including the ISSR/SSDCA as an acknowledged Shiloh Shepherd registry/club in the article.

2)They have agreed/compromised that the article contain an acknowledgement that Ms. Barber initiated this breed and originated the standard for the breed.

3)They concur that the article content must contain "verifiable" documentation, not based on "original" research and stated only from a "neutral point of view", in agreement with Wikipedia's stated requirements for content criteria. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About#Wikipedia_content_criteria)

4)They have agreed/compromised, in order to resolve this dispute and prevent potential for unverifiable, dependent, biased inclusions/comparisons/contrasts by any registry/club, including their own, to refrain from including any registry/club specific information and promotion in the article, other than to cite the existence and names of each, and to simply include ALL registry's/club's homepage website links at the bottom of the article, which will allow Wikipedia readers the opportunity to gain access, should they choose, to each of the various registries'/clubs' individual purported documentation, research, and points of view.

5)They concur that the article should NOT contain original publication of "original thought", "propaganda", "advocacy", "self-promotion", and "advertising", in agreement with Wikipedia's stated requirements for "Wikipedia: What Wikipedia is Not" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_propaganda_machine).

6)They have agreed/compromised, in order to resolve this dispute and prevent inclusion of these disallowed contents by any registry/club, including their own, to refrain from including any registry/club specific information and promotion in the article, other than to cite the existence and names of each, and to simply include ALL registry's/club's homepage website links at the bottom of the article, which will allow Wikipedia readers the opportunity to gain access, should they choose, to each of the various registries'/clubs' individual thoughts, propaganda, advocacy, self-promotion, and advertising.

7)In order to resolve this dispute and prevent bias regarding the article's descriptive contents concerning "Health", they have agreed/compromised to refrain from including any statements citing, reviewing, or comparing/contrasting ISSR, NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, SSDCA, or ISSDC health practices/policies and they propose the "Health" section of the article contain only a statement listing those health issues acknowledged by ALL registries/clubs (gastrointestinal problems -gastric torsion/bloat, bacterial overgrowth syndrome- and skeletal or bone disorders such as hip dysplasia, panosteitis and osteochondritis), a recommendation by ALL registries/clubs that testing be conducted and a statement that "these reports clearly show that, as giant breeds go, the Shiloh is arguably a healthy example".

8)They have agreed/compromised that regarding "Size", "Coat", "Color", and "Temperament", there appears to be very limited dispute re: the "standards" contained therein and that the section should remain free of any statements citing, reviewing, promoting any individual registry/club and comparing/contrasting one registry/club with another.

These compromises and requested article inclusions/exclusions meet Wikipedia's policies/procedures for content criteria, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About#Wikipedia_content_criteria) in that they embrace the following:

1) Neutral(WP:NPOV)in that the article would be "representing all views fairly and without bias" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view). In FACT, there are no requests from the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC registries/clubs for the inclusion of any comparisons/contrasts (negative or otherwise) between any of the registries/clubs, including the ISSR/SSDCA, nor have they requested that any clubs other than their own, be exluded from inclusion in the article. In FACT, there has only been the request that ALL registries/clubs affiliated with the Shiloh Shepherd dog be simply noted, with appropriate website links included at the bottom of the article. This is as "neutral" as an article contribution can get, according to any standards.

2)No Original Research(WP:PNOR). In FACT, there are no requests from any of the registries/clubs of the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC for Wikipedia's acknowledgement or inclusion of any "original research", whether it be their own or that of the ISSR/SSDCA. Again, they are simply asking that the the existence of ALL registries affiliated with the Shiloh Shepherd dog be noted, with appropriate website links included at the bottom of the article.

3)Verifiability (WP:V) In FACT, there are no legal governing bodies that allow/prevent the establishment of a dog registry or club. And yes, anyone can legally establish a dog registry/club, as evidenced by the establishment of all of those involved with the Shiloh Shepherd dog (ISSR, NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, ISSDC AND SSDCA). Simply put, they EXIST and they do so legally, as allowed by established U.S. law. Now, there are national/international organizations in place (AKC, UKC, FCI etc...), some of whom are registries and/or clubs in and of themselves, that have chosen to "acknowledge" some other registries/clubs. Because of their renown, an endorsement from another well-know, considerd reputable organizations tends to add positively to the reputation of that more newly established registry/club.

Nevertheless, NONE of these recognized independent bodies have the legal power or authority to secure or prevent the establishment or existence of these registries/clubs.

Most importantly, for purposes of discussion here, NONE have decided to to "acknowledge" or "endorse" any one of the Shiloh Shepherd existing registries/clubs (ISSR, NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, ISSDC or SSDCA) over any of the others at this time. So, its a moot point...even if they could or do...they haven't!

Consequently, in the absence of an independent, verifiable organization's "seal of approval", the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC has agreed to acknowledge the existence of all of these registries/clubs (including an agreement/compromise that the ISSR/SSDCA be mentioned in the article as the "first" established chronologically), but not a "rating system", whereby any one registry/club proclaims its self to be exclusive, superior, approved, or official over any other registry/club.

Jareth, to accomplish your request that everyone demonstrate good faith, and since resolution requires either a willingness to negotiate on the parts of all parties involved or a stalemate, I think we would all appreciate if the contributors representing the ISSR/SSDCA would now affirm whether or not they are willing to negotiate with the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC contributors and are willing to offer any compromises or agreements in order to reach consensus. We sure would appreciate if you would ask them to respond, because without that commitment, this debate really has no where to go at this point, other than to a "judge" who can review the merits of each sides' views and make a determination as to how this article is going to finally appear. Thank you. M. Dùfy

Generic

I have just taken a quick look at the new page, and I still think that linking the ISSR with the *other* "registries" is deceitful! This makes it sound like they are all the same :>(

<< The breed now has multiple registries, including, The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR), The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA). There are two Shiloh Shepherd Dog Clubs, the Shilohs Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA) and the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (ISSDC). For further information on all of the above Registries and Clubs please use the external links section of this article >>

I am also amazed that ALL of the other "registries" are not listed??? If you are going to do *some* .. why not ALL?

I will try to write up something a bit more honest tonight. Tina M. Barber 15:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

 I AGREE WITH MS. BARBER. IF YOU ARE GOING TO LIST ANY, OTHER THAN THE ORIGINAL REGISTRY,
 THEN YOU MUST LIST THEM ALL. THERE AGAIN I MUST SAY TO LIST ALL THE REGISTRIES THAT WILL  
 ALLOW A SHILOH TO BE LISTED IS NOT AN ACCURATE ACCOUNTING TO THE PUBLIC. 
 TO WHICH YOU ARE SERVING.

67.141.45.154 19:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

UPDATE

I don't have time for another long post, but I would like to share a site that you can use. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shilohshepherd.htm

This site also includes

ARBA = American Rare Breed Association APRI = American Pet Registry Inc. NKC = National Kennel Club

However, my research has proven that many other "registries" are also selling papers for Shiloh Shepherds!! These include, but are not limited to .....

Other All-Breed Registries:

The following is a list of some of the other all-breed registries in existence in North America — Caution should be exercised when dealing with a breeder who registers with any of these registries, especially when the breed is recognized by any of the major all-breed registries listed above. Many breeders use these registries because they are not able to meet the more demanding requirements of the CKC, AKC, or UKC.

The information shown in quotations was taken directly from the registry's web site and speaks for itself as to the goals of some of these registries.

American Canine Association (ACA) — "America's largest veterinary health tracking purebred canine registry." — Note: In the "Find A Puppy" section of their website, dog/puppy seekers are referred to pet/retail stores. Very little information is available on the website regarding their goals or mission as a registry.

American Purebred Registry (APR) — The APR issues registration certificates for dogs and cats. They start a pedigree file with the information the owner sends them. Once APR accepts an application, a registration certificate is issued and the animal is considered registered. APR is a record keeping agency only and does not sponsor dog shows, field trials or competitions of any kind. On the application, the owner certifies that the dog or cat is a purebred representative of the breed. They take the owner's word for it and no proof is required.

America's Pet Registry Inc. (APRI) — "An internationally recognized association of responsible pet owners, breeders, distributors, veterinarians, retailers, pet product manufacturers, and other concerned parties dedicated to the humane care of animals, the preservation of quality bloodlines, and the individual's right of pet ownership." APRI recently re-incorporated as a for-profit corporation. — The APRI promotes and encourages the sale of dogs and cats through distributors and retailers. "America's Pet Registry, Inc. was begun as insurance for the pet industry..." "APRI offers free dual registrations on dogs from reputable registration services to professional breeders. We classify a professional breeder as one who has three or more breeding females and who regularly sells puppies in the pet market."

Animal Registry Unlimited (ARU) — Some statements found on the opening page of their website: "We register all pets and animals." "We guarantee that your pet or animal can be registered with us." "Providing a registry for the development of new breeds of useful pets and animals. Unlike many organizations we encourage the development of new breeds."

Continental Kennel Club (CKC) — Note: This registry is also known as the CKC and should not be confused with the Canadian Kennel Club — These are two completely separate registries.) — The Continental Kennel Club recognizes 450 breeds as purebred. The Continental Kennel Club has a section known as "Miscellaneous Breed Registration" which allows for the crossing of two purebred parents of different breed types to produce hybrid puppies. Registered as MISC/BREED1-BREED2 and isolated from purebred registrations, they are distinguished from other breeds on registration certificates by having "non-purebred" printed on their registration certificates. In addition, the Continental Kennel Club has a section within their club for developing new breeds. Stock used for these breeding programs is listed in the "Development Class". The Continental Kennel Club has implemented a classified section on their site where club members can advertise their breeds. If you have a look at some of the more popular breeds such as the Cocker Spaniel, some of the kennels advertising there include breeders of cock-a-poos and other crosses. The Continental Kennel Club's website provides very little information regarding their goals or mission as a registry. For more information, however, there is a very thorough web page at: Continental Kennel Club FAQ. - Continental Kennel Club Rules & Regulations

Dog Registry of America (DRA) — (Formerly the US Kennel Club) Statements directly from the Registry's home page: "DRA Registers rare breeds and exotic breeds. DRA Registers 'Unrecognized Breeds'" "DRA registers poodle crosses such as cocker-poos, peke-a-poo's as a separate class DRA takes the red tape out of registration."Tired of registration & documentation hassles? Starting your own blood line? Lost or never had papers? Developing new breeds? Breed not recognized? DRA Registers all purebred dogs. Federation of International Canines (FIC) — (Not to be confused with the FCI - Fédération Cynologique Internationale) — From the FIC's website: "A registry founded for the preservation and continuation of all native dog breeds, in their pure forms, from all countries around the world. Currently recognizing over four hundred breeds, the FIC acknowledges the very rare as well as the better known breeds." Additional information found on the website: "The FIC is a complete registry service including, registration of individual dogs, registration of litters, certified pedigrees, sanctioned shows and matches, and conformation championships. Working titles (obedience, tracking, good citizenship, agility, dog sport, temperament test, etc.) are awarded and may be earned at all FIC shows and all shows sanctioned by the FIC. "The FIC offers special registration programs for breeds which are still in the developmental stage." "The FIC's goal is to work with breeders and owners, not against them, providing registration services that they can depend on. All paperwork is handled promptly. "Multiple dog registration discounts are available." — Offering a special discount for volume breeders.

International Progressive Dog Breeders' Alliance (IPDBA) — "IPDBA, founded in 1996 is the first registry of its kind, uniting breeders and enthusiasts of all breeds of dogs in one unique registry. The IPDBA is composed of Chartered Breed Associations. Each Chartered Breed Association has full control of their breed standard and the requirements for registration. The founders of the International Progressive Dog Breeders' Alliance believe that the breeding of all animals is an art form, and as such, breeders should have the freedom to express themselves and their vision for their breed(s) in their breeding programs." "The IPDBA currently recognizes more than 550 new and old breeds of dogs, making it the largest all-breed registry in the world." "IPDBA recognizes all breeds recognized for championship competition in at least one other association which has been established for the purposes of registration and exhibition of all breeds. IPDBA may accept any new breed regardless of ancestry for registration purposes provided it meets the criteria of being phenotypically different from an existing recognized breed. Acceptance may be denied if there is sound scientific evidence that there are inherent genetic problems deleterious to the health of the dogs in question which cannot be eliminated though selective breeding. Non-purebred dogs are not eligible for registration unless registered as a foundation for a breed."

National Kennel Club (NKC) — "Since 1970 the National Kennel Club (NKC) has operated to help dog owners register any purebred dog. The NKC has been fair and impartial to all breeders, dog owners, and the various breeds they represent. With the NKC rare breeds may be shown with equal status as well as the major breeds. The NKC licenses all-breed dog shows, events for Coon Dogs, Beagles, Squirrel Dogs, Bird dogs, Fox dogs, Licensed Dog Kennels, Show Judges, and other dog related-events."

North American Purebred Dog Registry (NAPDR) — "The NAPDR will register all breeds of dogs. Over 300 breeds of dogs are eligible to be registered with the NAPDR. A purebred dog that does not have registration papers may be registered with the NAPDR." If you are not 100% sure of the dog's breed, you need to send in a side view picture with the registration application. A "commercial rate" is available to breeders of five or more adult dogs of breeding age and who sell puppies.

United All Breed Registry (UABR) — "[United] is a registry service so unique that it has received two U.S. Patents, and is used to register individual animals, breeding stock, and litters; and will compliment any other registry service from the rare breeds to the AKC breeds." The UABR promotes the sale of pets through retailers — from their "About Us" page: "UNITED recommends consumers looking for a pet be advised by professional retailers who can help them make a more informed decision and can match the right breed to their situation." and "UNITED promotes retailers as a reliable source of healthy pets. We sight the "Source of Acquisition Study" published in the "Journal Of The American Veterinary Medical Association" as factual documentation that the health of puppies purchased from retailers are equal and in many ways superior to those attained from other sources."

Universal Kennel Club International (UKCI) — The following comes directly from the registry's "about us" page: "Universal specializes in registering purebred canines of all breeds and fully servicing their needs. We also register poos, hybrids and rarebreeds under special registration programs. Universal is becoming a leader in many areas of the pet industry..." and from other sections of the web site: "Universal Unique Registry System for any pure breed dog that for whatever reason is not registered in a litter or either of its sire/dam were not registered with any registry or if perhaps for whatever reason you were denied registry and your dog is at least one year old." Universal also provides bulk discounts to breeders.

World Kennel Club (WKC) — "The WKC® registers all dogs that are pure-bred only, which may or may not be registered with any other kennel club or those that have no previous history of their Sire or Dam." — Very little information is available on the website.

World Wide Kennel Club (WWKC) — "WWKC's objectives include a policy to adopt and enforce uniform rules and regulations for the improvement of all breeds. It addresses people interested in exhibiting, breeding, registering, purchasing, and selling dogs. All rules and regulations have been designed to encourage and protect the interest of its members..." "WWKC is a major registry service; registering purebred, pedigreed dog breeds, including international and rare breeds..." "The World Wide Kennel Club, Ltd. encourages breed improvement by requiring the same basic adherence to breed standards as other registry services require. However, WWKC goes one step further by offering International Registrations for all countries. WWKC recognizes and is willing to work with all registries and Clubs that are working toward the improvement of any breed. Owners of any dog registered with any other registry are invited to register and exhibit in all WWKC dog shows and obedience trials." "The WWKC recognizes all registries." "Any purebred, new breed or rare breed dog eligible for registration in any kennel club will be eligible for registration in WWKC." THE ABOVE DOCUMENTATION WAS TAKEN FROM http://canadasguidetodogs.com/breedregistries.htm Tina M. Barber 22:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I AGREE WITH INCLUDING ALL REGISTRIES THAT WILL REGISTER THE SHILOH SHEPHERD
IF YOU ARE GOING TO LIST ANY OTHER THAN THE ISSR ! REASON BEING SEEMS SIMPLE TO ME. 
THE ISSR HAS ALL THE DATA AND DOCUMENTATION. NO OTHER REGISTRY DOES. SO ANY REGISTRY OTHER
THAN THE ISSR CANNOT ACCURATELY REGISTER THE SHILOH. WHERE IS THE DATA FOR ANCESTOR LINEAGE?
MS. BARBERS REQUEST THEREFORE IS REASONABLE AND ACCURATE. 
PLEASE DON'T LIST ANY OTHER REGISTRY BESIDE OR ALONG WITH THE ISSR.
IF THE ARTICLE IS GOING TO, THEN LIST THEM ALL.

 67.141.45.154 18:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

re:UPDATE

This TB post is particularly amusing because the FIC (not to be confused with the international renowned “FCI”) is the very FIRST organization Tina Barber approached in search of Shiloh Shepherd breed recognition in 1990. Yet, she ‘includes’ their criteria listed under the DRA (http://www.dogpapers.com/) as some kind of ‘evidence’ that she’s above this supposed dubious registry? It was the FIC that originally gave her GSD’s “unique” status in the first place! The FIC organization failed but reformed again. In the interim, their recognition of the Shiloh Shepherd opened the doors to breed recognition by the ARBA (http://www.arba.org/) shortly thereafter.

ARBA (http://www.arba.org/) is likely THE most significant rare breed organization in North America. TB should be grateful for her Breed and Breed Standard (http://www.arba.org/ShilohShepherd1BS.htm) to have been accepted by them in 1991. ARBA (http://www.arba.org/index.htm) has always remained an objective show organization, veering away from ‘breed politics’ while enlisting international judges to critique breed entries as per All Individual Standards. This is not, nor has it even been, a group of amateurs.

The only other registry listed which I’m aware of Shiloh Shepherds being registered with is the NKC. (http://www.nationalkennelclub.com/) This is a well respected dog club, and Shiloh Shepherd registration with this club is simply for the purpose of show events. Shiloh Shepherds who show at NKC events MUST be registered with them. This is simply ‘their rule’. But this does not negate nor hinder a dogs registration with any but one of the ‘Shiloh specific’ registries, that being the ISSR/SSDCA. All other registries accept dual registration for the purposes of SHOW with the NKC.

I am surprised that the founder would choose to post a link to http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shilohshepherd.htm . Clearly the webmaster of this site has less than flattering comments in the “Origin” paragraph. I sympathize with this webmaster. He/she has apparently experienced enough discord with the breed founder to result in the writing of an article which indulges the breed founder no specific credit for the breed at all.

Is there such a thing as a Freudian Link?

Good luck to your arbitrators.

Shiloh Supporter

re:generic/UPDATE

I'm unclear on Tina Barber's point here. The point in question for the Wiki article is whether her registry, the ISSR, should be given more status as a registry than the TSSR, NSBR, or SSBA. But she just goes on trying to prove that there are other registries out there that will register Shiloh Shepherds. That has nothing to do with the article. The list of registries that she provides are not recognized as the more legitimate all- breed registries such as AKC, UKC, CKC, FCI, but neither is her own ISSR. As a matter of fact, the paperwork for the ISSR is processed and printed by one of the ISSR's top breeders in their home, after being edited by the breed founder herself. If anything, TB's posts just further prove the point of the non-ISSR people, that ISSR is no more recognized by any true all-breed registry than TSSR, NSBR, or SSBA.

Gloria 4.248.44.59 14:31, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

YOU ARE CORRECT GLORIA. SHOULD THE ISSR BE GIVEN EXCLUSIVITY 
OR MORE STSTUS THAN ALL OTHER REGISTRIES, THAT REGISTER SHILOHS?
THE ANSWER AGAIN IS QUITE SIMPLE;  "YES" WHY? WHAT OTHER REGISTRY HAS THE DATA AND   
DOCUMENTATION TO PROPERLY AND ACCURATELY REGISTER THE SHILOH? THEREFORE MS. BARBERS STATEMENT  
OF ALLOWING(THEREBY ACKNOWLEDGING) ANY OTHER REGISTRY BUT THE ISSR IS FRAUDULENT TO THE  
CONSUMER. THAT IS THE POINT "WIKI" SHOULD BE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AND LISTEN TO. 
THE "WIKI" IS HERE TO BE AN ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE, HONEST AVENUE FOR THE PUBLIC 
TO COME TO FOR INFORMATION. ALLOWING OTHER "SELECTED REGISTRIES" 
WHO CANNOT POSSIBLY RIGISTER ANY SHILOH WITH ACCURACY OF LINEAGE IS LUDECRIS.

67.141.45.154 18:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

As has been requested multiple times, please provide any source or reference for these claims. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 19:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

HI JARETH, MS. BARBER HAS PROVIDED MANY SOURCES OF REFERENCES. 
ONLY TO HAVE YOU ASK FOR THE IMPOSIBBLE, A THIRD PARTY VERIFIABLE REFERENCE. 
WHAT THIRD PARTY CAN SUBSTANTIATE THE RECORDS OF THE AKC? OR THE UKC? OR ANY OF THE KENNELL 
CLUB REGISTRATIONS. HOW ABOUT THE DULY ELECTED BOARD MEMBERS OF THE ISSR? WOULD THEIR 
TESTIMONIAL SUFFICE? LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IF  THIRD PARTY VERIFIABLE RESOURCES ARE WHAT YOU 
ARE LOOKING FOR TO SUBSTANTIATE THE CLAIMS OF THE ISSR, THEN WHY NOT ASK THE OTHER REGISTRIES 
THE SAME? THEY CANNOT PROVIDE THE DOCUMENTATION AND DATA WITH ANY HISTORY OR ACCURACY ON THE  
DOGS THEY ARE REGISTERING. AGAIN, IF THIS CANNOT BE PROVIDED BY EITHER PARTIES IN DISPUTE TO 
YOUR SATISFACTION, THEN LIST ALL REGISTRIES AS MS. BARBER HAS SUGGESTED. WITH SOME 
INVESTIGATION AND READING ON THE PART OF AN ARBITRATION BOARD OR JUDGE, I BELIEVE THAT YOU 
WOULD FIND COMPELLING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE MANY CLAIMS THAT THE ISSR AND SSDCA TO HAVE
MADE. HISTORY, CONSISTENCY AND MAGNITUDE ALONE WOULD BE ENOUGH CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE TO 
CONVINCE EVEN THE MOST SKEPTICAL.

72.1.70.194 22:02, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Actually I can find quite a few third party sources for AKC data -- about their museum [1], detailed info on the charity they run [2], their recognized breeds [3], encylopedia entries [4], court cases [5] and honestly, that's without even trying - I hadn't even started on newspaper references yet. So the fact is that most subjects notable enough for inclusion in an encylopedia have sources to rely on other than their own statements.

The fact is that anyone can become a registry. So maybe what we need to look at here is the question of notability. The ISSR was obviously the founding registry and should be noted as such. Are there any compelling reasons to include other registries? There's certainly no reason to attack them in the article, but perhaps they should just be linked in the external links section or perhaps not included at all. Back to the German Shepherd example, they do list several registries in reference to their particular standards and then have links to a few breed clubs. I'd have to look through other dog articles to see if this is typical, but I'll have to get to that later when I don't have to run home from work ;) .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 22:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Please review the proposal Talk:Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog#Dispute(s). I'd like to take a quick survey of the people involved in the page since no direct comments on the proposal have been received. Please sign your name using three tildes (~~~) under the position you support, possibly adding a brief comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion".

Support all points

69.173.135.114Miles D.

NobleAcres Gloria

Support all points ShenandoahShilohs 13:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Dartagnan

Support all Points. Wendy Fullerton Windsong Kennels/Raid the Wind Kennels. I have been involved with Shiloh Shepherds from the beginning plus two years previous while they were still registered as German Shepherds. WindsongKennels 16:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Support all Points. Diane K. McClure, Raid the Wind Kennels. Raid the Wind Kennels 17:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Support all Points. Becky Althoff Gateway/Catoctin Shiloh Shepherds since 1996. Iamgateway

Support some, but not all points

I believe the "other" clubs/registeries should have the real reasons for their formation and/or split from the ISSR listed. It is my opinion that the public has a right to know why they are not willing to follow the original plan in developing the Shiloh Shepherd. Tony Matzke 04:13, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Reject all points

I'm not quite sure just how we're suppose to vote here, so I will say it again. The ISSR is the ONLY organization that can hand out valid Shiloh Shepherd papers. If your getting your papers from anywhere else the dog could be anything else. I reject these and any other registry other than ISSR. 67.186.153.43 11:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Katy Schuele

AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE. I MUST REJECT ALL POINTS. 67.141.45.154 19:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Discussion

---Per your question below (Jareth asked: Also, are't the registries currently listed only registering Shilo Shepherds, or am I reading incorrectly?), you are correct and I propose that ONLY these registries/clubs limited to the registration of Shiloh Shepherds be included, that is NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, ISSDC, ISSR, and SSDCA. 69.173.135.114Miles D.

I think that EACH registry willing to issue papers for the Shiloh Shepherd should be included!! Tina M. Barber

I believe the article is about Shiloh Shepherds, thus the listing of the Shiloh specific registries who's sole function is the Shiloh Shepherd Breed. I have no issue with listing the ISSR as the first of these registries. 152.163.100.132 14:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)ShenandoahShilohs 14:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The Shiloh Shepherd registries include the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA and the ISSR. All these registries share the same Shiloh Shepherd ancestry as developed by Tina Barber. The NSBR, TSSR and SSBA were developed by former ISSR breeders which chose to leave the ISSR organization, primarily not because they want to breed away from the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Standard, but because they could not longer work with the ISSR's leader. Many of the dogs registered currently with the non-ISSR registries were once fully recognized and registered Original ISSR Shiloh Shepherds. It was only after their owners departed the ISSR organization that these same dogs were declared non-Shilohs and not worthy of the name "Shiloh Shepherd". To take it even one step further, there have been littermates declared as either an Original ISSR Shiloh Shepherd (as this owner was part of the ISSR organization) or a non-Shiloh mutt (as this owner declined to be part of her organization).

Therefore, it is only fair that all the Shiloh Shepherd registries be listed as part of this article. For the purposes of this article, I feel this list should concentrate primarily on the registries which focus on this breed and not every dog registry in the world that will accept the breed. I'm sorry, I forgot to hit the sign code for the previous post Dartagnan

THANKS TO THE WIKI, I AM WORKING ON ANOTHER *BIG* WEB ARTICLE, SOME OF THIS WILL ALSO BE PUBLISHED IN A MAG!! I THINK THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW THE TRUTH!! PLEASE LOOK AT http://www.shilohshepherds.info/originalISSRrules.htm If you read this & the ISSR rules carefully, dogs that do NOT meet the specific requirements set by the ISSR cannot get BREEDING PAPERS ... PERIOD!! Dogs that are AKC GSD's cannot get ISSR papers making them *INSTANT* Shiloh Shepherds ... DOGS RESCUED FROM SHELTERS CANNOT BECOME "SHILOHS" AND BE BRED!! Get it?? That's why the ISSR rules are so hard to follow .. but without them .. all you have is a GSD MIX!! PERIOD!! Tina M. Barber 17:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Could we calm down please? What on earth does this have to do with the registries? I'm especially curious since a number of them you recently provided for inclusion offer papers to any dog as long as a veterinarian states their breed. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 17:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

FROM WIKIPEDIAS POINT THEY MUST TRY TO ALLOW THE MOST ACCURATE INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE,
IN THEIR ARTICLES. RIGHTLY SO. THE PUBLIC COMES TO THEM FOR HONEST ACCURATE INFORMATION. 
WHERE WE THEN CAN PONDER AND MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES.
A) ONLY THE ISSR SHOULD BE LISTED. WHY? THEY HAVE THE 
1) HISTORY
2) DOCUMENTATION ON RECORD WITH THE TCCP IN TEXAS
3) ACCURATE DATA ON THOUSANDS OF SHILOH SHEPHERDS. 
   INCLUDING GSDS WHOM WERE USED IN THE FOUNDATION 
   OF BUILDING THE SHILOH SGEPHERD
4) ONGOING GENETIC HEALTH SURVEYS GOING BACK MANY MANY YEARS
  
B)IF YOU ALLOW ANY OTHER REGISTRIES TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED, THEN WIKIPEDIA IS CONTRIBUTING 
  TO THE FRAUDULENT DECEPTION OF THE PUBLIC. IS THE DOG BEING REGISTERED SOMEWHERE OTHER
  THAN WITH THE ISSR, A REAL SHILOH SHEPHERD? OR A GSD MIX? 
  YOU CANNOT BE SURE WITHOUT ACCURATE DATA OVER TIME. PLEASE CONSIDER THIS WIKIPEDIA, IN   
  RESEARCH, EXACT ACCURACY CANNOT ALWAYS BE ATTAINED. WHAT DOES THE MEDICAL FIELD DO AS AN  
  EXAMPLE? RESEARCH DATA OVER TIME. ASTUTE RECORD KEEPING. ONLY THE ISSR HAS THAT.

C)IF BY SOME MISTAKE THE WIKIPEDIA ALLOWS OTHER REGISTRIES TO BE LISTED IN THEIR ARTICLE,
  THEY MIGHT AS WELL LIST THEM ALL.

67.141.45.154 19:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Behind all of the posts, there are really two main issues. The first, is the Shiloh Shepherd a Breed of dog? I think it has clearly been proven that with every Rare Breed Show organization accepting them as a Breed, as well as all health organizations, all National Canine Magazines, and the general public, that issue should not even be an issue. Second issue; Is the ISSR the only registry? Obviously that is not the case. Since 1991 Barber sold these dogs to the general public as a Breed of dog. They were advertized by her as well as many other breeders through the years as a Breed of Dog. The Shilohs were deemed public domain as a Breed of Dog by the US Patent and Trade Mark office. As a Bred of dog, the general public has the legal right to do what they want with them. Once Barber stopped selling the dogs as Shiloh kennles German Shepherds and called them a new Breed, she no longer had the legal right to mandate what others did with the Shiloh Shepherds that they purchased. Through the years for what ever reasons, other Shiloh Shepherd specific Registries were formed and are operating, period. Since 1997 the ISSR is not the only Shiloh Shepherd Registry.

If Barber had continued to sell a line of German Shepherds from her kennel then maybe there would be an arguement. Since this is not what she did, and choose to seek Breed status, and thus named them Shiloh Shepherd, all of the rest is a moot point.

We could go all day on what registry has the most dogs, or who is better, but that has no berring on this article.

This dispute has been going on for years, and I am sure will continue, and will never be resolved as to some it is personal. This article is to be about the dogs, it is not to glorify any one person or registry. Each has there own links and with those links the general public can be educated and make thier own determination as to what they want.

ShenandoahShilohs

Let's end this foolishness, OK?

I have confirmed that the following organizations WILL issue 'registration papers' for Shiloh Shepherds, therefor I request that they be added to the list of "registries" that the Wikipedia has compiled.

ACA - American Canine Association http://www.acavet.com/

APR- American Purebred Registry http://www.americanpurebred.com/

APRI - American Pet Registry Inc. http://www.aprpets.org/main/index.php

ARU - Animal Registry Unlimited http://friendpages.com/cgi-bin/public/pages/cover.cgi?pageid=animalregistry

CKC - Continental Kennel Club http://www.continentalkennelclub.com/

DRA - Dog Registry of America http://www.dogpapers.com/

FIC - Federation of International Canines http://www.ficregistry.org/mainpage.html

INPDBA - International Progressive Dog Breeders Alliance http://ipdba.8k.com/

NAPDR - North American Purebred Dog Registry http://www.napdr.com/

UABR - United All Breed Registry http://www.unitedregistry.com/

UKCI - Universal Kennel Club International http://www.universalkennel.com/

WKC - World Kennel Club http://www.worldkennelclub.com/

WWKC - World Wide Kennel Club http://www.worldwidekennel.qpg.com/

All I ask is that these be included in your list of "registries" that are willing to issue papers for these dogs! I think this is only fair .. that ALL should be represented!!

However, I do request that you mention that the ISSR, Inc. (formed in 1991) was the original registry started by the Breed Founder.

Thankyou Tina M. Barber 15:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, I have to point out "I have confirmed" does not meet the standards for inclusion in Wikipedia. Also, are't the registries currently listed only registering Shilo Shepherds, or am I reading incorrectly? What use could there be to listing all dog registries in the article? .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 16:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

In fact, only one of those registries you provided links to lists the Shiloh as a recognized breed and two others state that they will register any dog/cat/animal you send a registration for. I have no idea what this is supposed to add to the article. Can you please explain why you'd want to add them? .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 16:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Jareth, the reason she wants to include these other registries is simple. She is simply trying to discredit the other Shiloh registries. She feels that if Wiki is going to list the other Shiloh registries,(rather than just the ISSR) then you might as well list a whole slew of other registries to cloud the issue.

P Osborn —the preceding unsigned comment is by 12.191.34.254 (talk • contribs)

Lets try to avoid discussing other editors and focus on the article please. Also, it helps if you sign your posts using ~~~~. Thanks! .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 20:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

SORRY, ALLOWING ANY OTHER REGISTRY WOULD CLOUD THE ISSUE. AS I HAVE STATED. WIKIPEDIA WOULD AT LEAST BE DOING THE PUBLIC A FAVOR BY SHOWING THE RIDICULOUSNESS OF ALL THESE REGISTRIES. WHEN THE PUBLIC INVESTIGATED AND FOUND OUT THAT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SEND IN AN APPLICATION WITH A CHECK AND THE NAME OF THE SIRE AND DAMN, THEN WHA-LA YOU MAGICALLY RECEIVE A WORTHLESS REGISTRATION PAPER IN THE MAIL. AGAIN, WHERE IS THE DATA FROM ANY OF THESE OTHER REGISTRIES TO ALLOW YOUR SHILOH (OR ANY DOG) TO BE REGISTERED?

67.141.45.154 19:53, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Might I point out that it was Tina who suggested we add all these other registries? .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 20:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I respectfully clarify my original comment. Jareth, please move or remove as you deem proper. I was referring to when the Shiloh Shepherd was recognized as a rare breed in 1991, not 1974. There were no "Shiloh Shepherds" (the breed) in 1974, just Shiloh Shepherds (the kennel) that bred GSD's, a.k.a. Shiloh Shepherds Kennel, a.k.a. Shiloh Farms. And yes, I did get my first Shiloh Shepherd (GSD) from Shiloh Kennels in 1989 when they were still breeding and selling GSD's, her name was Windsong's Cheyanne D'Shiloh and she is/was a registered Shiloh Shepherd (ORA-C3-7072) as I turned in her AKC papers to the ISSR and they gave me ISSR papers for her in 1992, so she was a Shiloh Shepherd (the breed). I got Trinka (Windsong's Katrinka D'Shiloh) in 1991, the first year the breed was recognized. Hence my comment. WindsongKennels 18:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Jareth: Question re: the Straw Poll "Discussion" Section

I am confused. In Ms. Barber's entry above, "Let's end this foolishness, OK?", she listed numerous "registries" and said: "All I ask is that these be included in your list of "registries" that are willing to issue papers for these dogs! I think this is only fair .. that ALL should be represented!!" AND in her first entry under "Straw Poll-Discussion" she said: "I think that EACH registry willing to issue papers for the Shiloh Shepherd should be included!!"

But in her 2nd entry in "Straw Poll-Discussion" above, she says: "If you read this & the ISSR rules carefully, dogs that do NOT meet the specific requirements set by the ISSR cannot get BREEDING PAPERS ... PERIOD!!."

Yes, this does seem entirely contradictory to her earlier two statements. Maybe what she meant to say was "ISSR dogs that do NOT meet the specific requirements set by the ISSR cannot get ISSR BREEDING PAPERS...PERIOD!!!." If that's the case, okay, that's a rule of the ISSR and the NSBR, TSSR, and SSBA registries/clubs respect her right to determine her registry/club rules as she sees fit and are very comfortable with the idea that they no longer want their dogs affiliated with the ISSR. But how is that particular ISSR requirement post at all relevant or appropriate to the Straw Poll (i.e. the listing of registries in this article)particularly in light of the fact that Ms. Barber has already very clearly "voted" twice that she would like to see all registries listing Shiloh Shepherds be included?

I also respectfully support requesting that Ms. Barber calmly clarify her position one way or the other and that any other extraneous remarks (by anyone), not related directly to your specific questions in the Straw Poll, be posted in a more appropriate place. This way, we can all view the poll results clearly and move positively and respectfully forward towards resolution. Thank you.69.173.135.114Miles D.

Actually the Discussion section is just for discussing the poll/proposal, so the comments don't hurt anything there. Actually, she hasn't voted on it yet -- in any case, polls are really only useful for showing a consensus which we're starting to see. I'm going to try to direct a few other outside editors this way and get some opinions from people who haven't been involved in the dispute. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 19:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Question for Windsong /RaidtheWind

I'm sorry but the numbers don't seem to add up. After reading your reply that

"Wendy Fullerton Windsong Kennels/Raid the Wind Kennels. I have been involved with Shiloh Shepherds from the beginning plus two years previous while they were still registered as German Shepherds. WindsongKennels 16:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)"

After reading this I went back and looked at the old Shiloh Shepherd (Kennel) Dog World ads from the 70's and 80's that are on the Shiloh Shepherd website. They consistently state that Tina Barber has been breeding her dogs exclusively since 1962. Since they were originally published in a verifiable outside source (Dog World), that should be documentation from a neutral source that she has been developing her line for nearly 44 years. Please tell us how you could possibly have been around the Shiloh world even before Tina was breeding dogs in 1962?

(attack removed)

65.37.31.237 19:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)M.Bush

What I left is still rather uncivil, please review WP:EQ for suggestions on how to politely discuss the article -- please be aware that personal attacks are absolutely not acceptable and may result in being blocked. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 20:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Attn: Moderators. How unfortunate and sad that a member of the ISSR/SSDCA has chosen to resort to such an inappropriate personal attack. Please remove this garbage immediately and the poster along with it. Thank you. 69.173.135.114M. Duffy

Article Suggestion

Jareth,

In my opinion, in order to have a completely UNBIASED article (as per Wikipedia's rules), you will have to find someone totally uninvolved with Shiloh Shepherds to write it. That person will have to do the research from the websites available and go from there. These 2 groups will never agree on the history of the Shiloh Shepherd. This fighting has been going on for well over 10 years, it isn't about to stop now.

Again, my opinion, but I would like to see the history of the Shiloh Shepherd be the history of the Shiloh Shepherd. Lets look at the GSD Wiki page, In the history section, it states who the breed founder was, when he developed the dogs, what his goal/vision was and the name of the registry he started as the official governing body for the breed. It does not list all the registries that now register dogs as GSD's. I would like to suggest that the Shiloh Shepherd history be written up similar.

"The breed was originated by Captain Max von Stephanitz in the late 1800s and early 1900s. His goal was to breed an all-purpose working dog. The first registered GSD was Horand v. Grafrath [1]who was bred from Grief Sparwasser whose coat color was white. Von Stephanitz admired the landrace herding dogs of his native Germany, and believed they had the potential to be all-purpose working dogs. Additionally, he was aware of the declining need for herding dogs and believed that the working abilities of the breed would decline unless it was put to other uses. Von Stephanitz created the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde [2], or SV as the official governing body for the breed. The SV then created the schutzhund trial as a breed test for the German Shepherd Dog, and prohibited the breeding of any dog which could not pass the trial."

Since it has been stated numerous times that the Shiloh Shepherd became its own separate breed in 1991 when ARBA recognized it as such, could someone please explain how the other registries are relevant to the history of the breed when they didn't exist until 10 years later.

SandraSS 21:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

 THERE YOU HAVE IT. I CAN AGREE WITH SANDRA SS. 
 AN ARTICLE WRITTEN IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE GSD ARTICLE WOULD BE ACCURATE
 AND NON DECEPTIVE TO YOUR PUBLIC.

 72.1.70.194 22:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS