Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army

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POV Seafoid

"Those McCartney family members and his fiancee were being used by the Bush adminstration, and most of the people in the U.S. knew it. Bcsurvivor 15:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)"

Folk, I suggest a permanent ban be imposed upon User talk:68.35.182.234, aka Bcsurvivor, aka Devin79 and indeed any other such editor who causes as much hassle on any article. I see absolutly no reason why we should be reasonable to unreasonable people. Fergananim 20:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Fully agree, but is this not the situation allredy, or am in mixing this user up with another one. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that bc survivor is the same person as Devin79 in fairness. Jdorney 13:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

GAC's

I've an issue with this section:

"All levels of the IRA are entitled to send delegates to IRA General Army Conventions (GACs). The GAC is the IRA's supreme decision-making authority. Before 1969, GACs met regularly. Since 1970 they have become less frequent, owing to the difficulty in organising such a large gathering of what is an illegal organisation."

From reading this it is saying that the IRA is the same organisation as the PIRA- a problem noticeable throughout the entire article, is there a reason for the repeated use of 'IRA' when 'PIRA' is being referred to?

The assertion the IRA had always enjoyed large meetings isnt accurate anyway. The IRA has always had trouble meeting in GAC, and frequently in the past ((1939-1945)/(1952-1964) in particular) the majority of its members have been on the run, including the Army council. Plus by 1969 the IRA had been an illegal organisation for a long time, all over the place. Another reason for distinguishing it from the PIRA. Fluffy999 17:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

IICD & IMC

Added details on these groups and their liasons with the PIRA to the article. Also updated the PIRA arms importation and IMC articles with the latest information. Fluffy999 19:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Just noticed that there are 2 sections dealing with decommissioning in this article. Plus I just added further details of the decommissioning section that was present in the arms importation article. While all the details arent duplicates, its still 3 places. Fluffy999 20:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Clean up

Can someone clean this discussion page up a bit or archive it? It seems to be full of rants for and against various political positions on one thing and another, Devin79, the KGB, Robert McCartney etc etc. Its hard to see the wood for the trees is what I mean. Fluffy999 02:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Archived. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Fluffy999 07:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

n/p --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Other Activities section

Will be adding more detail to the war on informers in the 1970s.

I re-wrote the section on policing as it seemed to give the POV impression that the PIRA assumed the role of community policeman on its own or sought it out somehow- it never did. In republican areas the community is more likely to watch out for one each other- a legacy of the attacks aimed at it from outsiders. This "looking out for one another" attitude extends to being watchful after the activities of "hoods", drug dealers, thieves, child molestors etc. The PIRA is then frequently involved in "adjudicating" on matters brought to its attention. The matters werent reported to the RUC. Some of the factors around this are alluded to in the article now. The other aspects not alluded to would revolve around "internal housekeeping" of people like informers, but I will add later. Fluffy999 16:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Casualties

Since its an article about the PIRA, I put in the republican view of the conflict as it pertains to casualties. Seems POV to leave it out when its so at odds with the analysis of casualty figures already presented in the article. Fluffy999 17:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Also noticed that the categorisation section was POV also. I realise this could cause some problems, but I laid out as best I could the for's and against's for the Guerilla / Terrorist thing, including the Crimimalisation, Ulsterisation, Normalisation strategy. I even offered a fifth interpretation.

What was an issue for me was that it was written in terms of "who could think blowing stuff up was an aim of warfare?"- that is what happens in warfare unfortunately. What the PIRA thought it was doing- in its terms, or that the PIRA considered itself as being "at war", or inheriting a tradition of resistance/guerilla warfare is worth mentioning in an article about them. Fluffy999 20:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. One thing I noticed with this article was its relative one-sidedness. While I may believe the PIRA should be considered simple terrorists who lack moral values, and I do not doubt that many people agree with me, it should not be considered in that light for encyclopedic purposes. After all there are probably plenty of people who supported the PIRA's actions. Supporters of the PIRA have made simmilar claims of illicit action on the part of the British forces as a matter of fact, and the same could be said of any war. Wikipedia should really not be a case of the winners writing the history books so to speak.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 20:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. We've been over this and over this and over it again. This article is an amalgam of many people's writing and includes many little strands of pov. If you think that some phrase here is unfair or pov, then change it as long as you can back up your changes up with fact. To be honest, I would rather leave out the whole sentence about the provos having killed more of everyone in the troubles altogether, rahter than get into whiether they had the right to kill whoever it was on any particular occassion.

Jdorney 13:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

OK good stuff, leave it in, when both sides are there its nonPOV. I think its also worth starting corresponding sections on casualties & views on terrorist/murderers in the Irish Republican Army and "old IRA" articles. Might get around to it once im done creating all the ww2 stuff. Fluffy999 17:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, it is far more important to give consideration to both sides and be inclusive in the interest of NPOV than it is to omit both in order to achieve the same goal. --Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 19:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Added some images

Added images of mortar weapons constructed by PIRA, and a vehicle checkpoint. Will add detail on their counter intelligence, bomb manufacture, advances in bomb manufacture/technology, telephone warnings, and any other bits and pieces that spring to mind soon. For an article about the group its long on comment, short on detail to be honest. Fluffy999

Regarding your new image, I'm not sure how relevant a mural dedicated to an historic event (in this case 1916) is immediately relevant to the subject of the article. --Damac 12:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well im no art critic but I think the artist is saying, this is how the Easter rising was, and this is what the PIRA have also been at.

Its has been a fairly common theme in PIRA statements- the usual stuff- "united Ireland, 32 county republic, heroes of the 1916 rising, proclamation is unfinished business etc".

And its a prettier mural to be honest, the brown one is just ugly to look at. This latest one, unveiled for the 90th anniversary of the Easter Rising is how the PIRA see themselves, and its even more interesting since they just gave away all their guns. Fluffy999 12:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The other one was dire, yes. I think your image Image:1974election.jpg would be more appropriate or something from the APRN calenders from the 1980s. The article should really dealing with the Provos and not their perception of where they came from. It's only my opinion and I'm not bothered one way or the other.--Damac 12:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I like the colours. Suppose it can go to a vote but I think in an article about the Provies / Bon Jovi's how they see themselves is also part of the story. A picture paints a thousands words, so using it means theres no need to go into a big story about what they thought they were up to when they were making war or terrorism etc. Fluffy999 12:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The Bon Jovies??

Never heard that one before. I've heard of pin-heads, provos, provies, the RA, the Army etc, but never this one. Jdorney 13:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Its a new one, ive only heard it in Belfast so far. Its not a huge issue, just another bit of trivia. Fluffy999 13:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure you're not confusing with the Jehovah's Witnesses - I've heard them referred to as the Bon Jovies. Regardless, I don't think it's necessary in a an encylopaedia to include all nicknames names for particular groups. We can't be a repository for every name thought up by Belfast barflies. If we go down that road, we'll have to include epitephts like "murdering bastards" or "IRA murdering scum" which are far more common for that IRA than Bon Jovies. --Damac 13:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure theyve gotten used to those names, just like the founding fathers of the Free State did. Funny what 90 years can do to peoples memories. Fluffy999

Sorry I take that last comment back. It was uncalled for and rude to you Damac. Fluffy999 14:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

There was no need to take it back as there was no offence taken. You obviously removed your comment after you realised how silly and partisan it was. (I've reincluded it for the record). Neither do I have to be reminded about the barbarity of the first Free State administration. What I am amused by though is your belief that I am coming from some political perspective diametrically opposed to yours. By claiming on a talk page that some people refer to the Provos as "murdering bastards" does not make me an apologist for the state-sanctioned murder of 77 people in 1922/23. I don't see the need for me to outline where I stand politically, but for your information, I've never voted FG or FF in my life and am very unlikely to do so in the future.

I think you are doing sterling work on Wikipedia but try and be somewhat more civil when other users raise legitimate concerns with you.--Damac 14:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well im no authority on it, but your comments seem slightly POVish, thats why i removed mine and said i take it back- to stop a comment war. Nevermind all that, this article talk page was full of chit-chat like this before- lets just both stick to getting the articles right. You are doing good work and im coming along. If I can find proof of the use of the term (like graffiti on a wall or in a blog etc.) i will post it soon. Likewise if I can find a more evocative image to fit in that big space. Fluffy999 14:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Devin79 changes

Hello, Im hoping you can help me along with your recent changes to the PIRA article. Ive some issues with your changes, namely:

• citation of the 2001 US State Dept. report
• change of "increasing" to "increasingly"
• PIRA ceasfire ended Feb 1996 you changed it to "November 1996" See Talk:Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969–1997
• insertion of POV statement about their campaign being "highly effective"
• changing "Sinn Féin" to "Sinn Fein"
• removal of all the allegations about McGuinness being a paid agent- the reason for the suspicions in "Republican circles".
• can you cite some sources via footnotes etc for the KGB "trained" the OIRA statement?
• Not that it was your initial statement but is there any evidence the PIRA trained the Mafia to assassinate?

I'm really curious why the entire thing shouldnt be reverted?

File:Belfast mural 13 (cropped).jpg

Also are you sure the brown wonder here is a better image to include? If you didnt like RPG avenue one, can you at least improve on it? Thanks. Fluffy999 18:15, 21 May 2006 (UTC)