Talk:Belly dance

External links

This article is extremely heavy with external references placed within the text. This is against wikipedia guielines.

Those who are fans of this artcle, please rearrange it in such a way that al external links are placed where they are belong, namely, at the "external links" section. If a external link points to a notable person or event, please consider writing a wikipedia article (at least a stub) and link to it, rather than to the outrer world. mikka (t) 21:19, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Mikkalai, it took me a while to understand your posting, it is a little bit confusing. For my understanding, "external links" is a section with links to webistes out (external!) of the wikipedia website, not a link to another article inside wikipedia. If you don't think that external links should be placed here, then maybe we should consider changing the title "external links" to "other links inside wikipedia". There are several great external links that you keep deleting, and I can't understand why do you do that. People who have interest for Belly Dance is also interested on everything that is happening now in that area. Unless the external link goes to a website that doesn't have anything to do with Belly Dance, then it is understandable that the link is removed, but otherwise, it sounds more like a blockage to the freedom of contribuiting to Wikipedia.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yonisha (talk • contribs) .

Mikkalai, I just noticed that the link to Bellydancenet is a dead link... is that the idea of a good external link? I think there are lots of contradictions when different people are allowed to free edit, and there will always be different opinions, and people will always be "adding" & "editing" endless things. Concerning the external links for Belly Dance, I think the links to pages where you can visit what other dancers are doing should be included as external links. Maybe we should create different categories of external links there.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yonisha (talk • contribs) .

Further, Mikkalai has been removing links to sites with accurate and researched information about belly dance and overall doing some really odd things which suggests little understanding of the topic. Following what has been happening here for the last few months, on a topic I am very educated in, makes me realize the total uselessness of Wikipedia. If people can put rubbish in and remove factual information - or links to factual information - or twist the wording (yes, Morocco is a dancer - but in the context she was mentioned her credentials in field research and history were far more relevant) then I can trust NOTHING I read in Wikipedia.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.167.249.253 (talk • contribs) .

Corrections/Additions

Overall, I found this this to be a well-researched, informative article on bellydance. However, I did notice some spelling, grammatical, and syntactic errors in the text. It seemed a shame to me that an otherwise well-written article should suffer from these errors, so I took the liberty to correct them. I also made some other minor changes that I thought might help clarify things for an uninformed reader, such as spelling out American Tribal Style, where it had originally only been abbreviated. I attempted to leave the basic content of the text alone as much as possible, as I had no complaint with it overall, and I did not wish to subvert the author's original intent. I did had some additional thoughts about the health benefits of bellydance, which I took the liberty of adding to that section, although I did not delete any of the original content. I felt the additional information might be helpful to those interested in learning about bellydance. I hope I did not offend anyone by making these changes; my only interest was to put forth before the public the best face possible for bellydance, as I'm sure would be in keeping with the author's original intent, as well as the desire of all of us that are bellydancers.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.1.44.191 (talk • contribs) .

This page has links to some articles on belly dancing in the middle east (eg bans being placed or lifted). Andjam 12:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Some items I'd like to work on -- comments, anyone?

• "Belly dance has been known in Egypt since the pre-Islamic era, based on oral tradition." & "It has a long history of depictions in Persian miniature paintings from the 12th and 13th centuries" -- This is, to the best of my knowledge, in some dispute. This has been pervasive in the dance community since at least Jamila Salimpour's book in the early 70s (but likely earlier than that). I *do* have a academic reference to pre-Islamic dance from MUSIC IN THE WORLD OF ISLAM, and of course there's the oft-cited reference to "quivering thighs" from a dancer in Roman times. However, it's questionable if either of these, or the Ethopian male dancer related in a haidth, are actually extant forms of raqs. I believe we should include some of this, but inform the reader of the open-ended nature of the "is it raqs/history of raqs" question.
• "Egyptian tomb paintings dating from as far back as the fourteenth century BC depict partially-clad dancers whose callisthenic positions mirror those used in belly dancing." -- Is raqs even callisthenic? I'm not sure there's a viable link here at all; this one I'd like to either find a solid citation for, or recommend removal of.
• "Some Western women began to learn from and imitate the dances of the Middle East [...] Mata Hari is the most famous example" -- I've been told by a number of people that we should point out that MH was NOT a dancer. I do believe, however, that she used Orentalist motifs, so this is another point I'd love to see citied and clarified.
• "Accents using "pop and lock" [...] dancing with chiffon or silk veils." -- I'd like to either clarify that many of these are Western-only concepts wrt raqs, or pair it down to the basics that all raqs dancers appear to share (and find a good citation for same). Otherwise, we run the risk of comparing McIntosh and Golden Delicious Apples.  :)
• "Egyptian-style belly dance is based on the work of belly dance legends Samia Gamal, Tahiya Karioka, Naima Akef, and other dancers who rose to fame during the golden years of the Egyptian film industry." -- As important as those ladies were to the development and popularization of raqs shaquri, I firmly believe that we cannot write any decent history of this form without citing the ground-breaking work of Badi‘a Masabni and her Casino Opera, esp. as she's referenced in the Tahiya Karioka article.

That's all for now. I do have more I'd like to work on, but there's only so much trouble-makin' and citing a man can do in a day! Thanks for reading and commenting! Woodrow, known to some as Asim 14:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

My edit

I removed the 'fortunately for us' bit but I made a slight mistake in my edit summary. It should have read "Whether or not what the dance creating a craze was fortunate is an irrelevant POV that shouldn't be discussed. Also, 'us' assumes reader cares about what happens in the west". I am not disputing inclusion of the discussion of a craze. I am disputing discussion of whether something was fortunate or not. I have also since re-read the original text and realised, it's not so much an issue of the west. My main point still remains though. Us assumes the reader shares the same view with what is written and should NEVER be included (except in quotes and stuff like that). Words like fortunately should not be included either because they express a POV that something is fortunate. While you may feel it is fortunate and indeed many people may feel so, POVs should only be expressed in appropriate contexts. Nil Einne 16:05, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

More About External Links

Mel Etitis has been removing links which I think are helpful to the bellydance article. He thinks links should be limited to 5. I think the links should be allowed to be more provided they are all highly realavent to the content of the article and fall within wikipedia's guidelines for external links. One that he has removed which I think is very beneficial and should be permanent is Middle Eastern Dance are there any other dancer out there who don't think this resource should be include in the external links section? Or would you also like to see it included? I think it should be included since it offers hundreds of useful articles and how-to's on bellydance and bellydance related things which would be a great asset to the article. Anyone else have an opinion about the links? Cassandra581 09:51, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Despite the plural, as though you're pointing out some general behaviour of which your example is just one example, the issue concerns only the link that you're determined to add. I now see that the site is yours; please read Wikipedia's strictures against adding sites that you own or maintain. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The site is not mine although I do find it to be an extremely helful site. The plural still stands since you have removed not only that site but several others which are beneficial to the article and those who wish to learn about bellydance. I figured it's hard enough to get you to add one site why try to get you to add more. I picked the one I thought was most useful. Cassandra581 19:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Cassandra581, just out of curiosity, what exactly is your relationship to middleeasterndance.net? SteveHopson 19:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm just a user who happens to think it's one of the better sites out there involving belly dance. I have visited it many times since I dicovered it and I encourage other people to visit it as well because I feel the content is of a good quality and tries to represent all points of veiw equally and fairly. It's free, there's no marketing, and it provides a lot of good information for all levels of bellydancers. I frequently refer back to it and have used the contract templates from it as well. I would not make such a big deal out of it but we are supposed to be free to add content and links that are beneficial to the article and some administrators won't allow us to add sites even if they are really good. I have tried adding it several times and I also noticed it was added by people other than myself earlier but continues to be removed. It falls within the guidlines of what links we can add and is far too massive, just as Shira's site is too massive, to be integrated into the article itself. Mel Etitis probably thinks because both myself and the creator share the same first name that we are one and the same however I would like to point out that my Name is Cassandra Mohamed and the sites creator and owner is Cassandra Strand. 2 different people! Cassandra581 20:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Since you and Cassandra Strand are "2 different people," will you explain the similarities between you, Cassandra581 (Cassandra Mohamed) and Casandra Strand, the owner of the site in question, middleeasterndance.net? For example, Cassandra Strand has registered a Yahoo! profile under your user name, Cassandra581 [[1]]. And, Yahoo!'s Cassandra581 clearly shows a homepage of middleeasterndance.net. An updated version of Yahoo!'s registration for Cassandra581 [[2]] is registered under your name, Cassandra Mohamed, but shows the same photo as Cassandra Strand. Similarly, Cassandra581 is registered on Tribe.net to Cassandra Strand [[3]]. SteveHopson 23:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Please not that I have put the issue into informal mediation to resolve dispute. You can visit the [case] if you wish but I will also post what the informal mediator has posted. If the matter remains unresolved I will move for further measures in mediation. I also would like to point out that many people who have added "helpful" sites. May also wish to pursue further action if they are continually denied the ability to freely add useful information to the article and it's external links. Here is what the informal mediator has posted:

"Mediator response

Here's what I can see about this case:

• Limits

1. There are no limits written in WP policy about the limit of external links
2. You don't want too many external links because it is better to expand the article instead of just linking
3. The belly dance article is plenty long enough and has more than enough information

Result: You should be able to put (almost) whatever link you want in the external links section and Mel Etitis is incorrect in removing them

• Eastern Dance

1. This link is currently under construction, so it doesn't actually provide any information
2. The URL indicates that it could potentially be a good source

Result: For now, leave the link off, but keep an eye on it and if the site comes back, go ahead and put it on

Make sure to point Mel Etitis towards my response. If you continue to have problems, let me know and we can escalte the problem. Amalas =^_^= 21:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amalas (talk • contribs) 16:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry link was not written correctly I forgot to space it properly. should be [Middle Eastern Dance] Cassandra581 21:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)"

I have no idea who "Amalas" is (aside from apparently not knowing enough to sign his/her comments), but his/her comment is not only obscure (though it suggests a peculiar lack of logic) — it ignores the plain fact that Cassandra581 has been trying to add a link to her own site (as SteveHopson has pretty conclusively demonstrated), and has been dishonest about that fact. That Amalas threatens to escalate the problem doesn't fill me with confidence either; nor does the fact that he/she seems to have chosen to issue a "verdict" on my action despite having failed to contact me. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me, but I do know how to properly sign comments. What is written above was copied from the Mediation Case about this topic. I thought it would be better to maintain the original timestamp rather than adding a new one. Also, I was not the one who copied that message to this page, it was Cassandra.

As to why I am involved in this case, Cassandra requested an informal mediation (link in above paragraph), and I responded to it. It is my first case, so I do apologize for not contacting you directly. I had assumed that Cassandra had done so. In addition, she had posted my comments on this talk page, so I assumed that you would see it.

Regarding escalating the problem, what I meant was that if a simple informal mediation does not resolve the issue, there is a more formal Mediation Committee that can take it from here.

I hope this answers your questions and I would encourage you to stay cool in resolving this issue. Amalas =^_^= 19:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

None of the links to any of those profiles says it's registered to Cassandra Mohamed they all say they are registered to a Cassandra Strand, the updated yahoo profile simply says cassandra581. MY name happens to be Cassandra and when I registered here as Cassandra the name was already in use I tried several othe number combinations and 581 is the one that was not in use yet. I can't explain the similarity other than the fact that we both have the same first name and apparently have picked the same following 3 digit number to follow our names. I suppose that everyone in every state who has the name Cassandra Mohamed is also me? I searched the name Steve Hopson and guess what there are probably at least 5 different ones that I came upon in my brief search, are they all you? I doubt it. In our ever expanding world we are bound to have overlap of real life and user names. Being as my name is in real life Cassandra, do I not have a ligitimit claim to also use a handle which reflects that? What proof do you have that Cassandra Strand and Cassandra Mohamed ARE the same person? Especially when none of those profiles mention MY name? They mention her name only. And I'm not surprised that as they are all registered to her that her homepage is listed in her profile. Despite that, we're getting away from the real issue which is that wikipedia does not have a specific limit as to how many links are allowed with each article! Also that external links should be allowed as long as they follow the guidelines wikipedia has set forth. Mel Etitis is assuming that he can choose which links and how many should be included on a page that is supposed to be freely edited within reason. If there are 10 relavant links, I think all ten should be listed if there is only 1 than only one should be listed. Especially with a subject which is already so widely varied and complex you should naturally expect to find more links than you would on other topics which may not be as diverse. Since there is no official anything in bellydance you can't just link to one official link to go further into the topic. Cassandra581 05:51, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating; not only do you share the same (somewhat unusual) name as the site's owner, which is certainly within the bounds of possibility, but you chose exactly the same three-digit number as her, by complete coincidence. Note that the odds regarding this don't only concern choosing the same number out of all the possible three-digit numbers, but choosing a three-digit number in the first place...

I notice that you have no e-mail address set up; would you do that now, so that I can e-mail you? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Even more fascinating. You gave your e-mail address at the "mediation cabal" page — and, surprise surprise, it was the address of the owner of the site. Now you've changed it (by one letter). Another mysterious coincidence? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of a typo? It's no coincidence it simply that our addresses are off by 1 letter and in my hurry to finish typing I did not catch it. I changed it to my correct e-mail address. I happen to use the number 581 because it's a number that has significance for me. There are 3 number combinations which I use in that way and 581 is one of them. I do not know what, if any significance the number holds for Cassandra Strand. You may email me at all the e-mail adresses which you believe are mine and see if I answer them. The only one I would respond to is the cassandram581@yahoo.com since that's the only one I have. I have also confirmed the e-mail address with wikipedia if you would like to e-mail me. Either way you still are avoiding the point. The point is that no matter what site I want to add or anyone else wants to add you will still remove because you think that you are somhow better than other contributers and continue to follow guidelines set by yourself not by wikipedia. Cassandra581 03:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Cassandra581's answer to my question yesterday is that she is not the owner of the Cassandra581 Yahoo! name, that it belongs to the owner of the contested site, Cassandra Strand, not Wiki's Cassandra581 who she acknowleges to be Cassandra Mohamed. I certainly believe in taking people at their word, but this posting to a Yahoo! bellydance site seems to cast some doubt on the statements by Cassandra Mohamed here by clearly showing her name associated with the other Cassandra's identity: [[4]]. SteveHopson 23:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't know what to say about that one other than it wasn't me. I'd suggest asking her why she used that name when it differs from her name listed. I can't answer for her although it was strange to see her use my name as I've never seen her use it anywhere else. As I pointed out in my other statement this is beside the point since the dispute has little to do with the actual site would it make you feel any better if I were asking to add www.zilltech.com? I feel this is another valuable resource which should be added. However, Mel Etitis would still not allow it.Cassandra581 03:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I would like for us to stay focused on the issue of allowing people to freely add apropriate links. As of yet you both have been focusing onwho I am and not the matter being disputed. Besides that the wikipedia policy on external links says this "NOTE relating to items #3 and #9: Because of neutrality & point-of-view concerns, a primary policy of Wikipedia is that no one from a particular site/organization should post links to that organization/site etc. Because neutrality is such an important -- and difficult -- objective at Wikipedia, this takes precedence over other policies defining what should be linked. The accepted procedure is to post the proposed links in the Talk section of the article, and let other - neutral - Wikipedia editors decide whether or not it should be included." First of all I'm not the first person to have posted it. If you read theough the history you will also see it has been added by others before my first contirbution even existed. The first [[5]] on November 21, 2005 and the second [[6]] on December 3, 2005. My very first contribution was on December 3, 2005 to another article Samia Gamal. Furthermore, the link remained there from December 3, 2005 until January 20,2006 when it was removed with other sites by an anonymous user. Obviously others already wanted it to be added, so even if I were the owner of the site, I was not the one adding it. However, I'm not the owner of the site and I chose to add something that had already been present for 1 1/2 months with no problem. Either way it's on the talk page now so that people can visit the site to determine if it is a good link to include and both of you are trying to take to dispute in a different direction. Please focus on the actual dispute at hand. Cassandra581 22:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:RFMF Cassandra581 07:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

{{content}} in Belly dance#External links

Please leave the {{content}} template in this section until the dispute is resolved. Amalas =^_^= 20:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

There is no genuine dispute. Cassandra581 has tried repeatedly to link-farm, and the link is to her own site (typically for such cases, she placed it first in the list, with a gushing, PoV description ([7]). Open and shut case. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a resource with lot's of how-to articles so how is that "gushing" PoV? Besides which that is not the dispute the dispute is you and your excessive removal of links which according to wikipedia guidelines may be added but according to your guidelines cannot.Cassandra581 03:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

There obviously is a dispute because Mel and Cassandra have differing opinions about what links should appear in the article. As such, {{content}} should stay until you can come to a consensus. According to WP:EL:

Wikipedia is not a web directory; no page should consist solely of a collection of external links. Wikipedia always prefers internal links over external links. However, adding a certain number of relevant external links is of valuable service to our readers.

The article is long enough to warrant more than a small number of links. There is no arbitrary limit. Regarding the one that is purportedly owned by Cassandra, can you at least agree to leave that one off until its ownership can be verified? Any other links should be allowed to be added. Amalas =^_^= 14:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Male Bellydancers

I am not sure if Tsifteteli counts, but if it does, this guy is an ace! Picture http://www.btinternet.com/~christopher.blackmore/rebetiko/stavros.jpg on my site http://www.btinternet.com/~christopher.blackmore/rebetiko/hydra2004fri.html The Real Walrus 09:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)