Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Historicity of Jesus/Workshop

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

Grounds for SPI?

Just curious if there is officially any grounds for asking for a SPI based on Fearofreprisal's earlier statements to the effect that he has been an editor here for several more years than that account is active and that there is I think some grounds for thinking, giving the nature of this particular username, that it may well be an alternate account of an editor who wishes to not have these particular edits associated with his/her other username. John Carter (talk) 20:59, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, that still borders on fishing. NativeForeigner ^Talk 04:51, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

New parties?

I noticed Kww was recently added as an involved party. I'm not sure if other editors knew about that. More importantly, Robert McClenon has added evidence against uninvolved editor IseeEwe which has been brought forward to the workshop. This editor should be added as an involved party and notified accordingly if this is going to be allowed. Ignocrates (talk) 16:12, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick, what's going on with admitting this evidence? This person has a right to defend himself in arbitration and the evidence page is closing in two days. Also, since Kww is now considered an involved editor are you going to move his opening statement to the main page from the talk page? Ignocrates (talk) 01:29, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• I do not see any point in adding the Kww statement to the main page, but I did add it to the evidence page.
• Kww was added to the list of named parties on 24 October, only one day after the case pages were created.
• I asked @Robert McClenon: to inform @IseeEwe: and will be lenient regarding the evidence closure date
• I do not believe it is our usual practice to treat every editor mentioned in the evidence phase as a named party. --S Philbrick(Talk) 14:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of this. I agree with your last point, but I decided to say something when the evidence was brought forward to the workshop. Ignocrates (talk) 17:47, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Iban between Ignocrates and John Carter modification

For the limited scope of this case the interaction ban between these users is loosened. They can comment on each others proposals in constructive and idea based ways. They should still avoid commenting on each other outside of this case. All in all use good judgment, and if not sure, ask me. NativeForeigner ^Talk 09:27, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks. Ignocrates (talk) 14:12, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Misread WP:BANEX to think that it applied to "legitimate dispute resolution" in general, perhaps involving both individuals in a related dispute resolution not related to the ban itself, not just specifically to interaction bans. Sorry about that, but thank you for the exemption in this instance. John Carter (talk) 00:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

PD Date

As a general note, I may be 1-2 days late with the PD. I'll be travelling until the very beginning of december, and it may take a bit longer than 2-3 days to assemble a PD. We will see. NativeForeigner ^Talk 07:39, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I honestly can't see any valid reason for anyone to complain if you do take a little longer than usual at this time of year. Thank you for taking on the case, and all the cases you arbs have to take on, in any event. John Carter (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Root of the problem

As this case moves forward to an imminent proposed decision, I'm struck by how much of this dispute boils down to bad faith on all sides. This is seemingly the meaning behind all the accusations of bias, trolling, vandalism, etc. What is different about this case is the assumptions of bad faith are almost intrinsic, or, to put it in plain language, that bad actions are the fruit of bad people. The intensity of the underlying mistrust and hostility I see here is incredible. I tried to boil this down to a single principle, but I couldn't find the right words in Wikipedia policy to do it. If the Golden Rule was a Wikipedia policy, I would apply it here. Ignocrates (talk) 22:30, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Another problem, particularly from one editor, Kww, is so far as I can tell a question of as I've said before what seems to me to be basic competence. There seems to be a strong indication from him, throughout the history of his recent involvement in the topic, that he thinks because it is possible that different religious groups would have different opinions about this subject, that such different opinions must exist and that we are required to reflect them all. Unfortunately, as someone who might be perhaps more familiar with this topic than a lot of others, I think that the Christian community internally over the time probably has more demonstrable disagreement over whether Jesus ever existed than any other groups. Docetism comes to mind here. I have seen no real evidence yet put forward to suggest that there actually are different views of the historicity of Jesus among the non-Abrahamic religions of the world, and, honestly, I have trouble seeing the assumption of there existing such different views hard to credit, given the sometimes remarkable differences between different groups within those traditions, and even whether there might be any consistency to them. John Carter (talk) 22:48, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Do you recall any prior cases where CIR has been used as a principle? If you can cite one that would be helpful to demonstrate how it applies to editor conduct. Ignocrates (talk) 03:00, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Fwiw, the essay WP:CIR was used as a proposed principle in the workshops of the Austrian Economics case and the American politics case, but these were drafted by editors. I couldn't find any examples where it was included by the arbs as a principle in the final case. Ignocrates (talk) 03:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ignocrates, I think it would be more appropriate to say that there was bad faith extant, but it is overreach to say all sides. It is for ArbCom to determine where the bad faith resides, and that is not from "sides" but from individuals. And not all bad behavior stems from bad faith. Even then, I myself positively reject the notion that bad actions are the fruit of bad people, here, and everywhere. One of the problems I see sometimes in various disputes is this tendency to paint with too broad a brush. ArbCom is here to discern and separate, the very opposite thing. Evensteven (talk) 22:55, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Saying there is bad faith on all sides was my way of declining to weight where the bad faith resides. I completely agree that "It is for ArbCom to determine where the bad faith resides", and I probably overstated the intrinsic nature of it. It's just that the intensity and persistence of the bad faith shown throughout this proceeding is striking to me, especially considering what ArbCom can do to every person involved. Ignocrates (talk) 00:47, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Ignocrates: Saying "there is bad faith on all sides" may be your way of "declining to weight where the bad faith resides," but to me it sounds like tarring all the participants in this arbitration with the same very wide brush. It seems unlikely to help the ArbCom arrive at a fair, well-informed decision.

While I may disagree with them on specific issues, I have sensed no bad faith in this arbitration from Evensteven, Kww, or Tgeorgescu. And, though I have accused some editors here of misbehavior (supported by diffs, by the way), I think it would be unnecessarily hostile to characterize them as "bad people," or paint them with a generalized accusation of "bad faith."

Finally, please clarify where I have acted in bad faith. I can't effectively respond to innuendo or conjecture. Fearofreprisal (talk) 03:45, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll pass on that opportunity. I struggled with how to word this as a principle, since AGF is a guideline and it has its limits. If you can think of a way please include it in the workshop. Ignocrates (talk) 03:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I can find no way to word your "bad faith on all sides" statement as a principle that isn't antithetical to the WP code of conduct. Maybe it's because I'm missing something, but it sounds like you're trying to say that everyone here is acting out of malice. And that doesn't seem right. Fearofreprisal (talk) 04:55, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Fearofreprisal, you are correct to state it's not the case that everyone here is acting out of malice. That was not my intention. In your case, the problem is, and always has been, your attitude; specifically, a predisposition toward intolerance and a lack of respect for the opinions of others. Imo, this causes you to become convinced of the rightness of your own position and to see the consensus position of others as merely an obstacle to be overcome. That said, people with such a disposition, while infuriating at times, can be paradigm shifters by challenging the assumptions behind the conventional wisdom. Ignocrates (talk) 14:44, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

For the record, Ignocrates, I have not meant to cast a shadow on your intent or good faith in making your statement, but only to challenge some of its content as it stood. To me, it seemed easily capable of being interpreted in an unhelpful way, and uncharacteristic of your other statements in this arbitration. Evensteven (talk) 06:59, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Evensteven, fwiw, you and Tgeorgescu are both impeccable editors and a great asset to the project. My characterization was overly broad and I didn't mean to impugn your reputations. Ignocrates (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

No apology necessary for my sake; I did not take it as directed towards me. "Overly broad" was exactly my point though, as it could be taken to mean anyone. I think you were generalizing and summarizing and just got carried away. Easy to do, but uncharacteristic. And this is not the place where we would want to leave stray misunderstandings in play, so I thought best to address it. And thanks for the kind words. Back at you. Evensteven (talk) 16:23, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I took a stab at incorporating AGF as a proposed principle. That apparently hasn't been done since the Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 Case in August 2007. Still, I think it's important to capture how making assumptions about other editor's motives and intentions adversely affected the editing environment and contributed to the escalation of the conflict. Ignocrates (talk) 03:00, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I definitely agree. Evensteven (talk) 07:09, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I included more early evidence under Assume AGF in the workshop, and it was enlightening to say the least. I was either unaware of or had forgotten about the details of how this conflict began. Ignocrates (talk) 05:00, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

It would be helpful also to include all the instances of repeated provocation on the talk page that provide the context to these few posts, but I guess that would have included almost all of archives 34 & 35, and quite a bit of archive 33. Wdford (talk) 09:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Wdford: You've excortiated my contributions at Historicity of Jesus, yet, you've not provided even one citation to show what I've done wrong. It's really hard to respond to innuendo. Fearofreprisal (talk) 21:50, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I do have to say that I find myself quite resentful of having my competence and good faith questioned. My stance through this has been quite consistent: the sources we are able to find do not reflect the demographics of either the world population of people or the world population of historians. They are heavily concentrated in a group with a bias, with a small halo effect in related groups. That doesn't mean the sources are wrong, but that biased demographic needs to be noted in the article and we can't use descriptors that would imply that the broader group is in agreement with the narrower group. There's nothing either incompetent or in bad faith in that stance.—Kww(talk) 14:05, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:GREATWRONGS more or less explicitly covers those points. And it is rather clearly a violation of WP:OR for you to say "sources we are able to find do not reflect the demographics of either the world population of people or the world population of historians" unless you actually produce specific evidence to the contrary, something you have so far as I can tell never done. You have repeatedly made assertions with no evidence to support them, in violation of policies and guidelines, as indicated above. and then attempt to say that you alone are apparently in a position to tell others what would be required for the reputable academic sources to meet your personal opinions of fairness. When someone places unsubstantiated personal opinions before policies and guidelines, and persists in doing so even after it is pointed out to them that the opinions are not supported by policies and guidelines, that is more or less inherently problematic, as it is in general both disruptive and, after the lack of required independent sourcing for the assertions made has been pointed out, rather clearly tendentious as well. John Carter (talk) 16:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

No, John, it has nothing to do with WP:GREATWRONGS, nor have I made any arguments that lack evidence. WP:OR doesn't apply to editorial decisions, and, when applied to articles it doesn't apply to simple math, such as "nearly half the world is Hindu or Buddhist, while exactly none of our sources are either".—Kww(talk) 21:50, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

But WP:TE and WP:DE, as well as WP:POINT, do. Your repeated insistence on your personal criteria being met in the matter of the academic field of history, demands that somehow history, which is a discipline unto itself and has its own methods and procedures, as has been said repeatedly recently, is extremely problematic. It would be extremely easy, particularly given your refusal to provide any sort of support for your arguments, to come to the conclusion that your conduct has rather clearly been in violation of WP:POINT for some time now, and yes, that you may well be incompetent as per WP:CIR to attempt to make any sort of judgments regarding this matter. John Carter (talk) 01:23, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I have not participated in tendentious or disruptive editing, attempted to apply my own personal criteria on the academic field of history, or refused to provide support for any of my arguments. Perhaps if you focused your attention on anything I had actually done, we could find a common ground for resolving our disagreements.—Kww(talk) 03:11, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

In fact, you have done, so far as I can tell, nothing but repeat opinions which you apparently deeply hold despite no evidence anywhere to support that they have any basis in academia, or, for that matter, reality itself. Your italicized comment above which I reproduce here "nearly half the world is Hindu or Buddhist, while exactly none of our sources are either" seems to irrationally insist on a false dichotomy in the field of history which you are apparently wholeheartedly committed to, despite, once again, a profound lack of any evidence in any academic literature to support such a claim. This irrational and I believe incompetent insistence that content on academic subjects must reflect the rather random selection of groups whose differences, in this case religious ones, are completely irrelevant to the topic, and your persistent seeming obsession with this frankly irrelevant and dubiously rational distinction being acknowledged, shows a remarkable inability to understand the basic subject matter of a topic which you have been belaboring, and that raises I believe very serious questions as to whether there is any reason for the community here to trust your judgment in any other areas as well.

Also, as I indicated earlier, I have checked the most exhaustive reference works known to me regarding this topic. Specifically, the Brill Encyclopedia of Buddhism is roughly half again as long (8 volumes) as the Brill/Eerdmans Encyclopedia of Christianity (5 volumes). No mention is made in it of any questions regarding this matter. The 10-volume Encyclopedia of Hinduism published earlier this year also contains no content regarding this subject. The "Jesus" article in the Encyclopedia of Religon does include quotes from Rabindranath Tagore and Mahatma Gandhi, which seem to indicate belief in his existence. On the basis of all of the above, I think it is reasonable to say that what you call "our differences" are in fact your personal differences with pretty much everything available in the relevant academic literature, and, possibly by extension, with the academic community itself. If that is true, there are very, very serious questions regarding your capacity to contribute to what is basically an academic work, which encyclopedias implicitly are, regarding this matter.

Lastly, your comment quoted above seems to indicate that you personally see Buddhism and Hinduism as in some way monolithic, as you seem to be implicitly indicating that one Buddhist or Hindu academic could ever be speaking for the Buddhist or Hindu academic community as a whole. Unfortunately, even a brief review of those topics would show to anyone that the internal differences among Hindus and Buddhists worldwide are even more pronounced than the internal differences among Christians, and that on that basis there is no reasonable basis for assuming that any of them would be capable or even interested in speaking for their religions as a whole. That rather obvious logical non sequitur raises still more questions regarding your basic competence as both an editor and as someone who is trusted to apply policies and guidelines which are generally written to be broad and open to logical interpretation. John Carter (talk) 15:54, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Both reinforcing my point here. Just to be clear, when I mention bad faith above, I'm referring to an assumption of bad faith on the part of others. Ignocrates (talk) 17:02, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

My preference is to not interact with John Carter, as I expressed in other pages of this arbitration ([1] and [2] within collapsed section), and I've requested a temporary injunction banning him from this Arbitration, and at least a temporary IBAN with me.[3]). Yet, I can only stand by, mute to John Carter's attacks against Kww, for so long.

In Ebionites 3, John Carter was sanctioned for personal attacks. He's apparently learned from that experience, and now, rather than questioning other editors' sanity, or calling them delusional or paranoid [4], he just calls them incompetent. [5] [6] [7] [8]

My viewpoint is that calling someone incompetent is pure incivility. The term's negative connotations so outweigh its denotation that only a person who is incompetent in the English language would think it might be perceived as anything but an attack by its recipient. (Irony number 1.)

Throughout this arbitration, John Carter has repeatedly accused Kww of incompetence. Yet, rather than supporting the allegations with credible evidence (and diffs), and proposing specific findings of fact and remedies supported by proposed principles, he's used innuendo and unsupported aspersions, spread throughout the content and talk pages of this arbitration.

Yet, it's difficult to be certain what John Carter actually means. His writing is often effectively incomprehensible. Consider the last sentence of his most recent post above: On the Flesch-Kincaid reading ease scale (which usually ranges between 0 and 100), it rates a negative 10. No joke.[9] (One time, trying to figure out what he was talking about, I was so frustrated that I tried asking for a third opinion. Even that person couldn't figure out what John Carter was trying to say.[10])

So, here we are, with a person who sometimes has difficulty expressing himself comprehensibly in written English, attacking the competence of another editor. (Irony number 2.) And, to be fair, Kww is not only competent, he's often eloquent and sagatious.

Just to be clear, I'm not accusing John Carter of bad faith or incompetence. My opinions relate to his actions, not his motives. Though his motives may be pure as the driven snow, his actions here have been disruptive. Fearofreprisal (talk) 22:31, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

As a matter of policy, WP:CIR is an essay. Although editors have tried twice in arbitration cases to draft principles based on lack of competence (see my analysis above), ArbCom has never implemented a principle based on it, nor has a sanction for a lack of competence been enforced at AE (to the best of my knowledge). Therefore, the whole line of argument is unproductive and should stop. Ignocrates (talk) 23:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

However, there are more or less set rules for the conduct of administrators, and our policy WP:ADMINACCT specifically indicates that administrators who have, and I quote, "seriously, or repeatedly, act in a problematic manner or have lost the trust or confidence of the community may be sanctioned or have their access removed." It also thereafter states "Repeated or consistent poor judgment" is one of the bases which has previously been found sufficient for such loss of confidence resulting in the loss of admin privileges. I think a very reasonable case can be made to indicate that Kww has displayed remarkably poor judgment on a repeated and consistent basis regarding at least this topic, and that the faith of the community in his judgment can be said to be seriously open to question. In that particular regard, as I think NYB, Beeblebrox, and Worm among others specifically know, there have been multiple complaints regarding Kww's conduct for some time off-site, and while many of those individuals are no longer members of the "community" here that is in at least a few cases because of their possibly voluntarily leaving the community. John Carter (talk) 01:23, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

In that case, it would be helpful if a principle for admin conduct were drafted and added to the workshop along with a finding of fact supported by diffs. "Repeated or consistent poor judgment" per WP:ADMINACCT is usually understood as questionable actions in the capacity of an admin rather than as a content editor. Ignocrates (talk) 03:59, 10 December 2014 (UTC)