Talk:Zarqawi PSYOP program

wow. this article is highly problematic. It is horrendously sourced. The serious citations do not support the conclusions and the only citations that do are from highly POV sources that themselves comprise editorializing by seriously biased sources (eg counterpunch).

The objective facts of, a)the US inflated Zarqawi's importance and b) the US conducted proaganda campaigns against Zarqawi, do NOT equal c) the US inflated zarqawis influence as a PSYOP campaign.

What keeps coming from the serious articles though is that the thrust of the psops was to emphasize Zaqawi's foreignness.

Particullarly strained is this: "Another goal was to ensure continued support for the War on Terror by keeping "terrorist actions" in the news.[1]" this assertion is not in fact int he citation given. It is in thepartisan POV sources. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.75.63.86 (talk • contribs) 20:15, July 9, 2006 (UTC).

Part of the War on Terror

Iraq is designated to be part of the larger War on Terror. This program is aimed at fighting the war in Iraq and at US audiences to secure their support for this war by inflating the concept of terrorism. This clearly is a broader campaign in the WOT. Second, if Iraq is part of WOT is is difficult to understand how a major campaign in Iraq is not part of WOT. Or as one article states:

Without Zarqawi and bin Laden, the "war on terrorism" would loose its raison d'être. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 09:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Thats from an editorial. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 11:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore the article itself states the program was directed at influencing the Iraqi Insurgents, not the greater WOT. Do you propose we add all 100+ operations that have taken place inside Iraq as well as all 20+ insurgent groups and their leaders? --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 11:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The aricle itself states that it was also aimed at the US, with the intend to gather support for WOT. You have not answered the quote, that without this program there would be no WOT. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 13:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I added the full explanation via quoting the next line of the text directly. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 10:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You generally misrepresented the articles. I reverted since your massive redaction is too difficult to untangle. Please explain why you say WaPo does not mention the US as a target in this campaign? Have you read the articles? Second, AFP clearly refers to a program you redacted out. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 23:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Your actions are completely uncalled for. They were done in numerous edits you could have addressed them individually. I will place them back tomorrow since you did not place an arguement against any of them. Furthermore if you read the article fully the program is mentioned earlier the quote actually is in the header. Seeing as you only have one arguement against the edits its further shameful that you reverted all of them. Next time address them individually. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 02:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

It is shamefull you redact out everything you disagree with. More civil would be to voice your objections so others may address them Instead you edit war and create a very hostile situation which is hardly constructive. Please restore what you censored and AGF while asking me to explain htese edits. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 10:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Please read the edits if you have an issue with one, then bring it up, removing 10+ edits with a sweeping revert without even stating an objection to any of them is frowned upon. Furthermore I am not sure why you would have removed the backstory on Zarqawi, you remove information from a major publication to support information from an editorial in a lesser known and verifiable source ... --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 10:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge?

So.. Why is this article an article instead of a sentence or two in this section of the Zarqawi article? Aside from copy and paste quotes from articles and an unrelated summary of Zarqawi's rise to power there really isn't much content in this article.. --Bobblehead 21:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that a merge would be appropriate, and would help keep this from becoming a debate about the merits of the war or the US prosecution of it. Morton Devonshire^Yo

I support this, after I copy edited the article the same redundant information was readded just by quoting dif articles. There is not enough content here for it to stand on its own. Furthermore there seems to be attempts to link it to other events without providing sources. Seems like noble attempts to fatten its contents. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 02:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

This editor has a clever and subtle way of saying he is unwilling to AGF as he thinks I am a POV pusher. If this user did not deny my summaries there would be no need to insert that many quotes. Example: he denies the US was also a target in this program so he altered the summary in which this was said. To avoid his need to edit war I inserted the quote that literally said the US was on of the targets. Almost every quote can be attributed to his refusal to accept a summary. Second, although not against a merge, maybe it is better to try and improve this article which has enough body of its own: 1 the program, 2 how it amplified Zarqawi's influence, 3 general remark on Psyop, 4 quotes. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 09:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but not everything is against you. I never said the program didnt target the US. IF you look you can see that the intro mentions still the US was mentioned as a Home Audience, however it mentions the next line which was not included that slide, created by Casey's subordinates, does not specifically state that U.S. citizens were being targeted by the effort, but other sections of the briefings indicate that there were direct military efforts to use the U.S. media to affect views of the war.

The section program attempts to connect the Roadmap to this program, I have asked you three times now to provide a source stating these two articles are linked, instead you have just blindly reverted the article. The quotes section should not really exist and most of what you have are just quotes taking up space in the article. While I know you created the article and may be a little defensive, if it does get merged you should be happy knowing the article is contributing to a larger article. And again, please explain edits you do not agree with, blindly reverting is frowned upon. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 09:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I think taht those commenting on a merge should be aware this user has severely redacted what was a reasonable article. Please do not comment on his version but the one he butchered. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 10:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Again do you contest any of the edits? If not you are arguing that we should keep redundant comments and OR in favor of keeping an article plump enough to avoid merging. I am still asking for proof that Zarqawi PSYOP program is part of te Operations Roadmap, else the whole section contained within "Program" was OR and possibly false, except for the quote from the Washington Post which just restates the paragraph before it and the intro. How many times and in how many ways does the same thing need to be said. There was a quote from Counterpunch that states something almost word for word from the intro. What is the point of that? It was a one sentence quote identical to the sentence into the intro. Again I ask you to contest the edits, and not the editor. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 10:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:AGF

One editor keeps censoring this article with some odious arguments.

• Information Operations Roadmap is redacted out as being not relevant. This article is about PSYOP in general and its effect on the US public, since the Zarqawi program was a PSYOP and was also aimed at US audience I fail to understand why a remark about a broader propaganda campaign is not allowed.
• Several comments are redacted out as being redundant. The style of writing is that any article starts with an introduction and continues to state the same in a more elaborate way. To claim everything that has already been said needs to be removed means that all articles should be cleansed of anything more than an introduction.
• If this editor were to read the sources and also would accept a summary, many quotes would not be necessary. So, maybe this user is willing to compromise and replace the quotes with summaries without contesting their accuracy.

Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 09:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

So you think every PSYOP and every document relating to PSYOPS should be covered in this article? Doesnt seem to make much sense to do that, however you insist on the Information Operations Roadmap, just supply a source stating this program is part of that Roadmap, I dont see the complication with that. Without it you are drawing a conclusion and thats WP:OR.

The article is made up of only quotes, or at least 50%, having a quote from Washington Post, then another from Michael whatever from another site, stating the same exact thing, is pointless.

I did not contest tha accuracy of anything, I actually added another quote to counter the POV being pushed in the intro. I am not sure why you would want to state it was targetting the home audience but not show the rest of the quote.

Please again stop blindly reverting as all my summaries are filled out completly. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 09:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

It is you that is stalking me to delete all my edits. There is no reason to do what you do to this article. All your objections are merely out of being obstructive and I find your behaviour bordering on resembling a disruptive troll. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 10:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you contest any of my edits? or is just my presence, again you have not even contested one of the edits on the grounds it was made. Please do so as I will ignore further insults, just make a note of them. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 10:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Since WOT is the general military campaign and is discussed everywhere I fail to understand why discussing the broader PSYOP campaign that encompasses all operations is not allowed.

However, I will no longer discuss any article since: 1 you are incapable of addressing problems in a logical manner, all you do is adopt circular logic while reperatedly not answering direct questions, 2 your need to edit war instead of trying to resolve the perceived problems through consensus makes communicating with you tiresome. Because of this I will stop interacting with you and await mediation on you disruptive behaviour. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 10:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Odious? Odious is an odious word. Who would use such a word? But then, I guess I just did. Shannon^{duck talk} 11:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Remove

I'm inclined to delete Chossudovsky's piece as not consistent with WP:RS. (1) It's self-published, or close to it; (2) The Centre for Research on Globalization appears strongly NPOV on this issue, and if it applied any kind of fact-checking or editing to that piece, I don't see it; (3) it's an editorial, not a news piece; and (4) it appears to rely entirely on a combination of quotations from mainstream news articles already in this article and Chossudovsky's personal opinions; and (5) Chossufovsky's expertise is economics, not whatever it is that piece is about.

What does everyone think? If people disagree I'm open to most dispute resolution procedures. Thanks, TheronJ 14:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with most of your basis, particularly 2, 3 and 4. I do not know if its self-published however, or the procedure for articles to be put on that site to make a comment on your first point however. I think at the very least we should try not to quote him directly as this isnt his field of expertise. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 15:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Arguments dor deletion incorrect

Several people have made comments regarding the sources. Apparently htey are insufficiently informed therefpre I would like to quote the actyal policy: Regarding wikipedia policy on the use of sources:

• WP:NPOV: The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

• Feel free to read about Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles: An article about a controversial person or group should accurately describe their views, no matter how misguided or repugnant. Remember to ask the question, "How can this controversy best be described?" It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all comers; it is our job to be fair to all sides of a controversy.

• The use of biased sources is allowed, Reliable sources: Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report? Remember that conflicts of interest are not always explicitly exposed and bias is not always self-evident. However, that a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it, although editors should avoid using political groups with widely acknowledged extremist views, like Stormfront.org or the Socialist Workers Party.

• Partisan sites are not excluded from use, Partisan websites: Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution, although political bias is not in itself a reason not to use a source.

• The use of legal experts seems to be encouraged, Beware false authority: Use sources who have postgraduate degrees or demonstrable published expertise in the field they are discussing. The more reputable ones are affiliated with academic institutions.

• Neutral language When a fact is not common knowledge, or when the information being related is a subjective assessment, like the result of a particular poll, the information should be attributed and cited.

• Balance An article can be written in neutral language and yet omit important points of view. Such an article should be considered an NPOV work in progress, not an irredeemable piece of propaganda. Often an author presents one POV because it's the only one that he or she knows well. The remedy is to add to the article—not to subtract from it.

Those reading this, especially about biased sources, will see that none of the sources violates what the above says. Please explain which of these quotes justifies removing the sources when thinking about: "However, that a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it."

Also some of us feel that making a general remark regarding PSYOP is disallowed. Surely an unusual argyment since discussion D-Day but prohibiting the mentioning WW II seems absurd.

I restored the redacted out comments and try to improve the article. Please answer these questions before deleting again. Thank you for cooperating and motivating your view.

Self-published sources are not reliable according to Wikipedia standards. "A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sourcesMorton Devonshire^Yo